DW ... making Terminators great again since April 2020

[L30n1d4s]

So, despite the disappointment that DW are not getting a lot of the current Marine toys (i.e. unique Litany, unique super-Doctrine, Phobos units, etc.), I think there are actually going to be several winners from the DW update in the White Dwarf.

 

Specifically, I think DW Terminators may have just come into their own. Consider the following:

 

1 - Access to Combat Doctrines

2 - Access to +1 to hit in shooting/melee Strat

3 - Access to Transhuman Physiology

 

So, combine all this with the current DW rules, SIA, and Strats and you can have the following:

 

A unit  that comes down from DS Turn 2 anywhere on the board with 20 x T4 2+/5++ wounds (with the option for a few 3++s in there as well, if you want). Using Transhuman Physiology and a couple of Storm Shields in the unit, BS3+ overcharged Plasma shots would take an average of 9 shots to kill a single DW Terminator (which are now quite reasonably point-costed as of the last Chapter Approved). Add in a DSing Primaris Apothecary to support them with wound/model recovery and they will be quite hard to shift. 

 

 

Offensively, a unit with 2 SS/TH Terminators and the Tactical Doctrine on can put out 32 x S4 AP-1 Dmg1 shots (that always wound non-vehicles on a 2+) at 12" when they come in from DS. Add in the +1 to Hit Stratagem, a TDA Watch Captain nearby for re-rolls of 1s to Hit, and the right Mission Tactics for re-rolls of 1s to Wound and, against non-vehicle targets, you get an average of 34 AP-1 wounds every shooting phase.... even against a model with a 2+ save, that gives you an average of about 11 unsaved wounds, and against MEQs you are doing an average of 22 unsaved wounds. 

 

 

In the Assault Phase, their PFs/THs ca now hit on 3+s (thanks to the +1 to Hit Strat) and, if you have a Chaplain nearby, you can give them extra attacks on unmodified 6s to Hit, improve their charge rage by 2", or just give them full re-rolls to Hit in combat with the right litany passed. Finally, if you are in the Assault Doctrine, then their PF/THs are all AP-4, making them even better against heavily armored targets like vehicles. If you need to up the damage output even more, then use the appropriate DW Strat that gives +1 to Wound against a specific FOC type.

 

 

Finally, for mobility, outside of Deep Strike, they can be "pulled" over by the Beacon Angelus and you can even add +2" to their Advance rolls with support from a nearby Chaplain. Put all this together, with a SB/PF Terminator only costing 34 points, you have a very potent and efficient unit that other armies are going to have dedicate significant resources to deal with or pay dearly for ignoring them.

Edited April 10, 2020 by L30n1d4s

[Mobius0288]

I would say if you bring storm bolters, melta guns and power fists, than probably worth bringing it as its own unit. Probably a CML in there as well. I still think its more cost effective to bring 5 in a vet unit and give all the vets storm shields.

 

Don't forget bikers can place teleport homers as well.

[Debauchery101]

The thing with stand alone terminators is that even before the preview of what were about to get, they are the best terminators besides Chaos Slaanesh ones...but...pts to killing output the just don't stack up to the veterans. It really just comes down to the options Veterans can take. Which are also Troop choices

[Mobius0288]

Been thinking about this some more, and there may be some fun tactics to use with +2 to charge litany and beefy melee unit. I bring it up because I'm working on converting one of my existing units to a melee: HTHs and fist, something like that... anyway, the tactic.... Drop pod a librarian (plus whatever else you want to fit in there) and give him the beacon. A Chaplain or chaplain dread can sit in the back and buff said melee squad with the +2 to charge. Beacon said unit and cast veil of time. It doesnt garuntee the charge but you're pulling off some genestealer cult shenanigans. Transhuman, if its one of the strats we get, could help keep that unit alive so beefing it with a bunch of power weapons and models wouldn't be a horrible investment.

Sgt and Blackshield with fists and storm bolters, 3 vets with SB and SS, 4 termies with fist and SB, 1 VV with TH and SS (grenade thrower). And fighting xenos, you could pop suffer not the alien to live (exploding 6's). Add doctrine as required.

 

Shooty wise, still thinking adding them in a vet unit would be ideal for durability. I can see the appeal of dropping a termie unit with a char and doing +1 to hit with storm bolters and melta guns.

[Prot]

So I'm trying to look at this from a wider perspective since I play a lot of armies and I'm old school so I try to fit Terminators in where I can.

 

I actually think Deathguard Terminators are some of the best in the business from my own playing experiences. Why do I say this? 

- 4++ invuln (Cataphractii)

- Toughness 5.

- 5 +++ Feel No Pain (Disgustingly Reslient)

- Great load out abilities. I often took combi guns... Melta or Plasma.

- Unique weaponry. The Flail is something that is nasty... it has hits that work like mortal wounds in that they spread out if they overkill their target. Every swing of a flail is D3 attacks. So in turns where you charge, that D3 more attacks. In turns where Death to False Emperor procs it turns into another D3 potential.

- Decent Synergy with the DG psychic phase/warlord traits, and Plague Weapons. 

- Their inherent weapons are good. A Blight Launcher is a great choice.

 

So second on my list is now Thousand Sons Scarab Occult.

Strat gives 4++ to a 3++ Invuln (with psychic power).

Psychic 'sarge" can have a good choice of cheap powers, or a baby smite.

Double Shoot strat if you didn't move is incredible. I mean I have had 80 shots hitting on +1 (Prescience usually) with Veterans of the Long War giving me a +1 to wound, and their StormBolters are -2 AP.

 

Drawbacks:

- Deathguard are incredibly slow. There's no real way of plopping them around the board like you can with DW and even Thousand Sons.

- Thousand Sons are very reliant on a great psychic phase which is good and bad. 

- Thousand Sons Scarab Occult are generally really inflexible. They only have one good option: For every 5 you can take a missile launcher that fires twice at S8, AP-2 D3 damage. Not bad, but that's it.

- Thousand Sons are horrid in Close Combat. This is one squad you can literally bog down with garbage units. Unless the TS player can teleport them out with Psychic or the Relic, they are stuck.

 

Some other thoughts:

- I tried making Black Legion Termies work. Man I tried everything. Eventually just a very vanilla squad of Stormbolters and axes was as good as it got with cheap options and using a 'mark' to gain other abilities, or give them a Feel No Pain psychic power and/or Shoot Twice (Cacaphony).

 

Now if you think about it, all of that is pretty good for the points, but it just doesn't really pack a solid punch in today's game.

 

White Scars: These guys have a lot of ways to improve that unit. It's actually quite easy between Strats (white scars specific) and the Psychic phase to just about guarantee assault. When you think about it, these guys with simple claws, and using the super doctrine (Assault Doc: +1 AP to assault weapons, and +1 damage) can make for quite a blender .If you use a mixed loadout, the White Scars specific Litany is reroll any to wound roll in assault.

 

That's not bad really, but you never see this stuff. Almost every example I used above is almost completely unused in competitive play. I have tried all of the above very many times (not the WHite Scars solution though.)

 

The Deathwatch option I used most often was a mixed weaponry, including the Cyclone, and a DW Captain in Termie armour with the 2 Damage bolter thingy (kind of a goofy relic).

 

I would also try the Melta/Fist which to me added a lot of flexiblity, but then you look at the damage potential for the points and I just couldn't make it work.

 

I ended up replacing my Termies in my lists basically with the Bikes. (I'm now in the process of redoing the DW bikes for my White Scars).

 

But all of this being said, if you guys find a combo for the Termies in Deathwatch that works, I'm very much in favour of using that unit again. 

[Debauchery101]

Really though I find using 4 terminators, 2 frags,1 biker,1 sgt and 2 vets as my magic combo for using terminators. 2 hammers/shield terminators, everything else that can take a storm bolter and/or shield has one. I use it as a bully unit. They're fearless, t5, have a lot of shooting power and durability vs anything

 

Bully as in make you go around them or through them spending a lot more firepower/movement than you wanted. I also run 2 or 3 psykers. 1 always being cotaez or hecktor rex. They really help with denial and inquisitors/marine pskers usually are avoided.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Prot]

Interesting squad design. I can see with that many points invested in it, you need good Psychic defense. 

 

I actually use Greyfax, the self loathing Inquisitor. She comes with 2 denials at +1 so that's decent, and the anti-overwatch ability isn't bad sometimes.

 

I admit I haven't used a squad that beefy. Do you just march it up the field?

[Debauchery101]

Interesting squad design. I can see with that many points invested in it, you need good Psychic defense.

 

I actually use Greyfax, the self loathing Inquisitor. She comes with 2 denials at +1 so that's decent, and the anti-overwatch ability isn't bad sometimes.

 

I admit I haven't used a squad that beefy. Do you just march it up the field?

Nah that's too slow a unit for that. I play a counter game most of the time and like 2nd turn. I usually start with some cheap Intercessors on the board. I focus on objectives and make full use of teleport Homers and the watch master. And when I say I focus on objectives I'm usually just trying to deny the opponents scoring. DW are really good at countering and one of the worst to charge or deep strike next to.

 

I haven't played the new ITC missions with DW because I've been using salamanders and raptors recently. I still surprise a lot of people with my lists. Like a lot of people read about these DW lists with 40+ storm bolters and 30 storm shields... but most never seen it until they come across me.

 

I never used greyfax. If I used guard or sisters i think she'd be great. Hector rex is just brutal and can throw down as hard as the marines. Cotaez has some cool little tricks. That ability increase the CP cost of a stratagem has saved me a few times from getting wrecked with combos.

 

Especially turn 3+...a lot of people will save CP for auspex scan, duty eternal, death to the false emperor/endless cacophony late into the game...some of the combos like for chaos and eldar you got to start spending CP, using prayers, psychics and moving guys around...then I hit you with that spy network...so you either make your combo weaker or spend that CP. I always try to be the one who has at least 1 more smash cpt or a Killteam after all the opponents units come in. That 1 CP could mean I dont eat auspex scan, run into rotate shields or have you bust transhuman/duty eternal.

 

So yeah if I'm taking 3 psykers I usually have 2 marines and cotaez...if I take 2 its rex and a Librarian. Rex can do the work of 2 librarians. I play him pretty aggressive.

[Mobius0288]

I wonder if Coteaz's thing stacks with Callidus Assassin. Never thought about that until now. Where did the t5 thing come from? The biker is the only t5 model in the unit. Not having a van vets might bug me, but at the same time, I'm usually the one initiating close combat...

 

I like it! I was looking to build one a little more lightning claw and power fist oriented, beacon them up the board turn 1 for some harassment. Good to know it works for you.

[Debauchery101]

I wonder if Coteaz's thing stacks with Callidus Assassin. Never thought about that until now. Where did the t5 thing come from? The biker is the only t5 model in the unit. Not having a van vets might bug me, but at the same time, I'm usually the one initiating close combat...

 

I like it! I was looking to build one a little more lightning claw and power fist oriented, beacon them up the board turn 1 for some harassment. Good to know it works for you.

Good catch. I been scheming and talking on DW a lot. I was thinking of Aggresors/Intercessorz teams that I use. I'm kinda retarded when typing and usually distracted. Lol

 

But having some single wound guys with multi wound models is great to help tanking a lot of shooting