Tactica: Long Fangs

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Long Fangs are too squishy for this edition. The Terminator wolf guard is obligatory unless you keep them in a transport. And turn 1 keeping them out of line of sight is essential and using keen senses.

 

My preferred load out is five missile launchers. I like the adaptability. But just like any unit, the load out varies on meta and points

[BadgersinHills]

As a somewhat related question, I thought that the Wolf Guard leader replaced the Long Fang leader.. Is this not the case? 

Edited April 19, 2020 by BadgersinHills

[Karack Blackstone]

As a somewhat related question, I thought that the Wolf Guard leader replaced the Long Fang leader.. Is this not the case? 

No, the WGPL and LFPL are like other packs.

 

They can stack, or be taken individually.

 

Taking one is not going to replace the other.

[Dark Shepherd]

You have to take long fang pack leader, and then if you wish you can also take the wolf guard pack leader

[Bryan Blaire]

I never noticed before that the WG Pack Leaders don't replace the Pack leaders... I have a couple of more models that I'll need to paint now.

[Dark Shepherd]

I never noticed before that the WG Pack Leaders don't replace the Pack leaders... I have a couple of more models that I'll need to paint now.

Your long fangs just got fangier

 

A general trick I saw someone else mention here, and a crafty one if you have longfangs sitting on an objective, is to pop the Lone Wolf strategen on the last guy. Mainly for protection of character of character keyword but hey 2 free wounds and a lascannon rerolling hits and wounds

Edited April 19, 2020 by Dark Shepherd

[Oshikai]

Wished regular Pack Leaders had Leadership 8 as well, especially on Long Fangs who are supposed to be Ancient. Seven never sat well with me.

[DanPesci]

I love my long fangs and always used to take 2 squads...my current list im working on has 5 LC and 5 HB.

 

However the problem is if you don't get turn 1, they are very easy to deal with if the opponent has ranged anti-infantry, especially when you have things like thunderfire cannons that you cant even hide from.

 

Ive got 3 rhinos in my list which are used for GH which my LF can jump into if they arent going first, but then this means at least 1 is going to be at -1 to hit when they get out. I think going the WGTDA with a cheap SS loadout would be better so thinking of dropping 1 rhino to achieve that.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Putting Long Fangs in Drop Pods is the way to go IMO. I’ve seen so many comments stating “they are too squishy” or “they aren’t good “anti-horde.”

 

Firstly, when we’re Long Fangs not squishy? They die just as easily now as they did in previous editions. Be a smart Commander, and use your units to their greatest potential. Plenty of stuff “just dies” this edition. I’m sorry, that whole manner of justification (or lacking in justification) is just a pointless argument and a non-issue.

 

Second issue.. so what if Long Fangs aren’t the best anti-horde? Why would you build an Army around one unit to take on all threats, that doesn’t seem remotely smart or tactical. Each unit and weapon serves a purpose in defeating or exploiting something in an opponents Army.

 

I feel like “competitive meta” thinking and the overall lack in creativity this edition has really warped a few of your heads. Go throw back some mjod and try something different or new.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Bloody Legionnaire

[lonewolf81]

Long fangs for me is one of the best units for wolves... Never leave home without a squad.

 

The way to go is plasma cannons for the following reasons:

 

1. Multiple ap - 3, str8 shots (ap-4 with Dev doctrine and you always overcharge)

 

2. Built-in reroll 1s

 

3. Reroll wounds with 1cp (you must have multiple shots to make it count that's why you go plasma cannons)

 

4. Keen senses ignores modifiers which is the downside of plasma weapons)

 

The best way to deploy them is via drop pod along with a 5 man GH or BC squad. You can give the ancient a plasma gun for more plasma shots. All other ways of deployment are risky if you go second. Even with auspex scan abilities they must target the pod and not the units inside (according to a FAQ, if I remember correctly) So with the pod they will always shoot at full unit strength no matter what and during first turn when Dev doctrine is on. Also with 5 man troops the pod seems less of a tax and you always have at least 3 troops for the battalion.

Edited May 4, 2020 by lonewolf81

[TiguriusX]

IMO the marine artillery meta with devastator doctrine has forced long fangs off the table

 

You either drop pod or outflank to keep them alive

 

This means we usually take 1 unit of LF instead of 3 like the past

 

It also means dedicating 3 or so CP to them (outflank...keen senses...wolf's eye)

 

There are superior options to what LF offer

[Bloody Legionnaire]

TiguriusX,

If you don't max out the unit of Long Fangs then two packs can be put into one Drop Pod.. Depending on how you equip them, Long Fangs aren't a terribly expensive unit and with their weapons and rules I believe they have a high probability of deleting whatever needs to be deleted. Yes the Long Fangs might die quickly, but if they come in and perform the role they needed to, why isn't that okay? Drop Pods (while expensive) add so much tactical flexibility to them IMO. They can block movement and force your opponent to "channel" his movements in ways that help you control the battle, they can land on or near objectives, if place them well enough that your opponent must destroy them early on, well then he's now wasted some of his units offensive power on a transport. Because the shortest ranged weapon Long Fangs have are Multi-Meltas, deploying them by Drop Pod makes it incredibly easy to land them some place that's the 12" melta range away. What I'm getting at is there are plenty of places you can deploy a Drop Pod and they are not limited to being 9" away to attempt a charge. If Drop Pods aren't approached one dimensionally it's my opinion that they can open up a lot of different strategies offensively and defensively.

I've mentioned this is my own Long Fangs/Drop Pods thread, but the point is to have multiple Drop Pods come down and not just the unit of Long Fangs. Give you opponent more threat options and force him to make the wrong decision.

 

[TiguriusX]

2 LFs in a pod

 

1 LF gets stratagem boosts and does awesome

 

The other is hitting on 4s rerolling 1s

 

It has no synergy and is firing at worse than normal because it moved

 

I dont think LF#2 is justifying the cost to include in the army

 

This is personal taste for each wolf lord

[Bloody Legionnaire]

If the Long Fangs come down with a Wolf Priest in proximity, then recitation of focus would add +1 to the hit rolls and would greatly assist the second pack. Drop Pods can come down T1, are you trying to say that a unit is invalid for the rest of the battle because it may have to put up with a -1 to hit for a turn?

I get that's personal taste, just don't make a lot of sense to me, particularly when a lot of armies in 40k hit on 4's standard. It's still a 50/50 which, while not optimal, isn't terrible.

Since this is the Long Fangs unit focus thread, what do you guys think the best weapon is going to be for the Long Fangs to take?

[Dark Legionnare]

In my first couple games learning the army I've come to love a loadout of two squads of:

4 w/ML
PL
WGTPL w/Cyclone
 

1. Hide them first and foremost, if necessary
   1. Once it's my turn, move them to some high ground (second/third ruins level for PA fangs, second level for termie leader) if possible, or just somewhere with LoS to big targets if not.
2. Keen Senses 1 that had to move from hiding. If both did, oh well!
3. Pick their target for Fire Discipline
4.  Wolf's eye on the unit with LoS to the juiciest target (Usually only if it's one of the two hitting on at least 3+)
5.  Six missile shots at the targets.

PL is there to be an ablative wound in response to incoming fire first and foremost. Very "Chaos Havocs" of him.

 

If they're facing low volume, heavy AP, termie shield attempts to shrug it. If decent volume of fire, let the PA ones die and attempt to get the WGTPL to stay alive through the phase. 

Two games now I've been able to keep him as the last alive with smart positioning in ruins windows so I can get "Lone Wolf" popped off on him.  Then I get a character with two ML shots who auto rerolls all failed hits and wounds.  He's become a huge nuisance in both games for my opponent since without snipers (or target character rules), he's AT fire that can't be counter-batteried.  Second game with them I got both of them to Lone Wolf. It was pretty funny and fun.

[Valerian]

 

Firstly, when we’re Long Fangs not squishy? They die just as easily now as they did in previous editions. 

 

Although the statlines and armor save is the same, you've missed the contextual differences between 8th edition and the previous editions that make this untrue.  Long Fangs are quite a bit easier to get rid of in 8th edition than they were in the past.

 

Cover saves work differently in 8e, giving a +1 modifier to saving throws that can be offset by any weapon's Amor Penetration.  In past editions, a Cover Save was either an extra free save (Rogue Trader and 2e), or an unmodifiable Invulnerable type save (3e through 7e).

 

Units and vehicles are able to split fire freely in 8e, whereas they had never been able to do that in any previous editions.  This means a unit can send appropriate anti-infantry firepower to deal with Long Fangs, while preserving anti-tank firepower toward more appropriate targets for those weapons.  In the past, there was a bit of a dilemma in making this choice, as you wouldn't want to waste your anti-tank firepower against infantry.  Now that you can pick the most efficient and effective use of your weapons systems across the board, you won't hesitate with sending in small arms fire, that is in range, to help clear out a vulnerable and "squishy" infantry squad full of heavy weapons.

 

One of the biggest changes, however, is that you can no longer screen Long Fangs from shooting attacks.  In previous editions, you couldn't shoot at units hiding behind other enemy units.  So Long Fangs were protected a great deal by your forward deployed Grey Hunters and Blood Claws, etc.  you had to maneuver around those protective units to get at them, which bought them some time to be effective before getting destroyed.  Now, however, you can just shoot right on past interposing units that are less threatening to deal with the higher value target in the back.

 

Another change that has a very real contextual impact are the increased ranges of certain basic infantry weapons.  The standard Bolt Rifle of an Intercessor is a 30" ranged weapon.  It's harder to hide Long Fangs in the back out of range, when the increased mobility and range of weapons like this help offset the range advantages of the heavy weapons of the Long Fangs.

 

Finally, those range advantages are erased completely by the ubiquitous availability of forward deployment, outflanking, and deep striking in this edition, whether via inherent unit abilities, warlord traits, or stratagems.  There are just a ton of different ways for units to easily get in range to quickly deal with your vulnerable Long Fangs.

[TiguriusX]

are you trying to say that a unit is invalid for the rest of the battle because it may have to put up with a -1 to hit for a turn?

 

I get that's personal taste, just don't make a lot of sense to me, particularly when a lot of armies in 40k hit on 4's standard. It's still a 50/50 which, while not optimal, isn't terrible.

 

A unit of LFs that came down via drop pod are likely to be killed on your opponents turn. They are squishy with no real defense

 

That is what makes them a non factor the rest of the game IMO

 

Wolf priest recitation of focus won't work because LFs are off the board and not a valid target when the litany activates (it isn't an aura like canticle of hate).

 

It also means your WP doesn't have canticle of hate which is far better for SW army.

 

As for other units with BS 4 they usually have balance factors like lower cost or higher rate of fire.

 

In a cold calculation math hammer analysis a LF unit firing with a BS -1 penalty is sub par

Edited May 4, 2020 by TiguriusX

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

Firstly, when we’re Long Fangs not squishy? They die just as easily now as they did in previous editions. 

 

Although the statlines and armor save is the same, you've missed the contextual differences between 8th edition and the previous editions that make this untrue.  Long Fangs are quite a bit easier to get rid of in 8th edition than they were in the past.

 

Cover saves work differently in 8e, giving a +1 modifier to saving throws that can be offset by any weapon's Amor Penetration.  In past editions, a Cover Save was either an extra free save (Rogue Trader and 2e), or an unmodifiable Invulnerable type save (3e through 7e).

 

Units and vehicles are able to split fire freely in 8e, whereas they had never been able to do that in any previous editions.  This means a unit can send appropriate anti-infantry firepower to deal with Long Fangs, while preserving anti-tank firepower toward more appropriate targets for those weapons.  In the past, there was a bit of a dilemma in making this choice, as you wouldn't want to waste your anti-tank firepower against infantry.  Now that you can pick the most efficient and effective use of your weapons systems across the board, you won't hesitate with sending in small arms fire, that is in range, to help clear out a vulnerable and "squishy" infantry squad full of heavy weapons.

 

One of the biggest changes, however, is that you can no longer screen Long Fangs from shooting attacks.  In previous editions, you couldn't shoot at units hiding behind other enemy units.  So Long Fangs were protected a great deal by your forward deployed Grey Hunters and Blood Claws, etc.  you had to maneuver around those protective units to get at them, which bought them some time to be effective before getting destroyed.  Now, however, you can just shoot right on past interposing units that are less threatening to deal with the higher value target in the back.

 

Another change that has a very real contextual impact are the increased ranges of certain basic infantry weapons.  The standard Bolt Rifle of an Intercessor is a 30" ranged weapon.  It's harder to hide Long Fangs in the back out of range, when the increased mobility and range of weapons like this help offset the range advantages of the heavy weapons of the Long Fangs.

 

Finally, those range advantages are erased completely by the ubiquitous availability of forward deployment, outflanking, and deep striking in this edition, whether via inherent unit abilities, warlord traits, or stratagems.  There are just a ton of different ways for units to easily get in range to quickly deal with your vulnerable Long Fangs.

 

Valerian I have been playing since the beginning of 6e and watching battle reports on youtube since 5e. Everything you are saying is nothing but situational and are no where near what actually happened on the table top. Long Fangs (and devs in general) were often played on high ground somewhere in the controlling players side of the table. This protected them slightly from charges, but they were just as exposed to to getting shot off the board as they are now. 7e was just as bad for Long Fangs as 8e is for them. The old cover save *could* help sometimes, but it was just as situational as the premises for all of your arguments that you've tried to make.

 

There were plenty of long range weapons in the editions prior to 8e that could reach out and touch Long Fangs. There were plenty of weapons which ignored cover. There were plenty of ways to get into the back line and take out Long Fangs from angles which they couldn't be protected from, and I remember well enough, the arguments in 7e that it was too hard and required too many resources to protect Long Fangs and "they never earned their points back." It's like people on this forum don't remember how things really were in previous editions.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Valerian]

 

Valerian I have been playing since the beginning of 6e and watching battle reports on youtube since 5e. 

 

Well, we'll just have to agree that my experience, having played in every edition of the game for 31 years now differs from yours in this regard.  For the reasons that I pointed out above, I'd contend that Long Fangs are quite a bit more vulnerable now than they have been at any time in the past.

 

Regardless, whether you disagree whether they're more vulnerable, it seems like you at least agree that they are vulnerable.  So, this then leads back to something I, and some others, have been arguing throughout the thread.  Because of this vulnerability, there are quite a few better (more efficient, more effective, less vulnerable, etc.) options that folks ought to take for their anti-tank/monster firepower than Long Fangs.

 

V

[Gherrick]

For those that are in tune with the battle reports et al, just how prevalent are vehicles and high toughness targets? Outside of knights, are armies using lots of vehicles/monsters in their lists? Do we need an alpha strike on turn 1 against most armies, or is it for a select few?

[TiguriusX]

For those that are in tune with the battle reports et al, just how prevalent are vehicles and high toughness targets? Outside of knights, are armies using lots of vehicles/monsters in their lists? Do we need an alpha strike on turn 1 against most armies, or is it for a select few?

Last tournament I went to was March right before quarantine

 

 

1st match was white scars with 2 units of assault centurions

 

2nd match was chaos knights and 3 plague burst crawlers

 

3rd match was pure knights including a castellan

 

You definitely need something stronger than bolters and close combat in a list

[Valerian]

For those that are in tune with the battle reports et al, just how prevalent are vehicles and high toughness targets? Outside of knights, are armies using lots of vehicles/monsters in their lists? Do we need an alpha strike on turn 1 against most armies, or is it for a select few?

The answer to that is highly faction dependent, but in most cases all are taking at least some. Purely infantry lists are going to have a really difficult time in a competitive setting.

[ranulf the revenant]

Auspex Tactics on long fangs...

[Dark Legionnare]

Auspex Tactics on long fangs...

Neat to see basically everything I said echoed and reinforced.

 

Not like it's any really complex thinking/tactics.

 

Just good to get some reassurance I'm not TOO crazy. :B

Edited May 9, 2020 by Dark Legionnare

[Valerian]

I’m sure that we’ll have an opportunity to discuss more when 9th edition actually hits, and when we get actual points values, but it seems to me that the new Primaris Eradicators have just put the final nail in the coffin of Long Fangs.