How would I propose to balance/update our units/rules?

[ThirtySixNights]

We know that rules will be refreshed for many factions in order to balance competitive play.

 

I'd like to discuss how you'd balance our rules to make our unique units and characters a contender for at least top 20 competitive play. I'd like to be able to run a fluffy list and not have it shot off the board or be useless in close combat compared to blood angels for example..

 

Here's how I'd do it.

 

I would leave unchanged the following things:

 

Our characters: they're great.

Our litanies: some are lacklustre but there's enough good ones to be fine.

Relics: also great, but I'd remove or change the skull of cacodominus, it's one of the worst relics I've seen in any codex since the concept was created. Never take this.

Strategems: are mostly really good, just the scout one I dislike, for obvious reasons.

 

Onto things I'd actually change.

 

Unit changes:

 

Crusader Squads.

These are an extremely bad unit at the moment, with scout and tactical squads both being cheaper and more durable per point, and being equally as strong or better at shooting and close combat. Scouts being able to infiltrate and get easy turn one charges springs to mind.

 

The only way they are viable is run in huge squads with a lot invested in strategems and relics, and even then they're going to suffer heavy from leadership and you're going to have less command points, which makes your entire list less effective. They are garbage tier.

 

Their rule which apparently makes up for the fact they are more expensive than both scout and tactical squads is also garbage. In order to be effectively equally durable as tactical squads you have to take all your saves on initiates, and as soon as you begin to lose initiates the rule no longer works. So you need to choose between durability and extra close combat effectiveness.

 

The rerolls of 1 for neophytes is also garbage because most players will bring at least a captain, if not a chapter master or a chaplain and any of these provides a better aura making this rule completely worthless.

 

Here's how I'd fix them.

 

If you ignore the fact you're losing infiltrate on the scouts and you're spending an extra point on the initiates because they can take close combat weapons, then it makes sense for them to be that many points. However that punishes those who wish to use them as objective holders without chainswords

 

If you are going to take them as objective holding MSU's they should cost the same as tacticals.

 

If you choose to take larger squads, that's a huge disadvantage in both leadership threat and in command points.

 

I would reduce the points cost of each model (12 for initiates and 10 for neos) and then make taking a Chainsword and Bolt pistol an extra 1 point per model.

 

This means that if you choose to take large bolter squads they are now a little cheaper than tacticals, which makes sense since they are less durable than tacticals, and since they can't infiltrate they are more durable than scouts but have less utility.

 

If you choose to take squads armed for close combat they cost the same as they do currently but that's because I would change their special rule to give +1 to hit in close combat to the entire unit, if the number of neos is equal to the number of initiates. Symbolising that both initiates and neos benefit from working together.

 

This buff isn't negated by reroll auras, and is great against units who are harder to hit in close combat, and is all around a small buff if you consider the unit was getting rerolls anyway. It's a more substantial buff than they get currently, represented by the extra cost you pay for the unit while getting less durability than tacticals, since you have to start taking 4+ saves once you begin losing models otherwise you won't receive the buff.

 

I believe this would make crusader squads a viable unit, not amazing and definitely not better than scouts or primaris for filling out detachments, but at least if you want to take a 9 or 10 man squad, they will be a nicely priced choice and good for holding backfield objectives. You still suffer the issues of morale and less command points for not taking scouts instead at MSU, but it's a trade-off rather than simply something you'd never consider.

 

The next thing I'd fix is relics

 

The holy orb currently has rules in vigilus and its just as bad as the skull of cacodominus.

 

I'd buff them both in a pretty similar way.

 

The holy orb currently is designed to effective against swarms and big units and not much else. The goal would be to make it a lot better against swarms, but actually not completely terrible against anything else.

 

It currently does d3 mortal wounds per 10 models, rolling a 2+ for each 10 to see if it goes off.

 

So we change it to d6 mortal wounds for the first 5 models on a 2+ and then d3 on a 2+ for every 5 models after that.

 

So previously against a 30 man Ork boy squad we would average 5.16 mortal wounds and against a single model unit or a 10 man or less unit it would be an average of 1.72 mortal wounds.

 

Now against 30 Ork boys it would be 11.61 mortal wounds on average and against any 5 man squads or single units it's would be 3.01 mortal wounds.

 

Now I'd say that's a fair and balanced amount when you consider that most units coming in swarms of 30, would probably lose 12 or so models against one good round of bolter fire, and if you manage to get within 6 inches of them for a grenade, you could probably do something much the same by getting about 36 points in flamers.

 

Not an always take, but actually something worth considering.

 

As for the skull. Well, it seems to be some sort of attempt to create a single turn null rod. The problem is that you do it in the turn before you want a power to be risky for the enemy. The enemy player can then simply move their pysker out of it's range, most models being able to advance. Even if they are almost right next to your character, they can render it ineffective.

 

And even then, you have to pass a 2+ roll for the event to work.

 

So a chance at d3 mortal wounds if your enemy has no idea how to move their units once per game, is just so indescribably useless. Even to double the effectiveness of this relic it would still be garbage. It needs to be rewritten.

 

Firstly you need to be able to activate it in the enemies turn, so it's a threat for the entire game, until you use it of course.

 

Keeping with it's intended function, it acts as a 12" threat to pyskers.

 

You activate it when the enemy declares they are going to attempt to manifest a power when they are within 12" of your character who has the relic. If they choose to then proceed with their power, every successful manifestation of a power automatically results in a perils of the warp.

 

If the psyker also rolls a perils of the warp, they are considered to suffer the effects of perils twice.

 

If you deny the power. It's not a successful manifestation so, nothing happens.

 

It can only be used once per game and lasts only for one enemy psychic phase.

 

This relic now acts as a successful 12" gotcha, as if you are up close in their face, they have to risk death and possibly the death of nearby units, if they die to perils. They will likely die to perils if they roll a single perils themselves or if they attempt to manifest two powers, so the risk is quite substantial, but they might still take the risk if the power needs to go off.

 

I don't think having to roll a 4+ for it to be effective is good enough to ever be worth taking, and the enemy can still move away out of range of your character beforehand, as they know who has the relic.

 

The real effectiveness of the relic is simply it's presence, as a smart enemy will be forced to keep their key psykers away, when they need them to be up close. Such as if they want to smite something near your character, or if they are a good close combat unit with powers essential to their army.

 

That's my suggestions for the moment.

 

I think most of our rules are good, I just feel that those 3 sets of rules are total trash and are in desperate need of a little buff.

Edited April 12, 2020 by ThirtySixNights

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I've been working on a rework of our rules as well, going through and tweaking wording here and there. +1 to hit in melee is also the fix I have for Crusaders. The rest I'm going through a bit more carefully. I've changed our special doctrine to auto wound on 6 against everything in the assault phase if we charge, were charged, or heroic, for example. Same with our +1 to hit doctrine. When I'm finished making tweaks I might post them here rather than keeping them private for my gaming group.

[ThirtySixNights]

I've been working on a rework of our rules as well, going through and tweaking wording here and there. +1 to hit in melee is also the fix I have for Crusaders. The rest I'm going through a bit more carefully. I've changed our special doctrine to auto wound on 6 against everything in the assault phase if we charge, were charged, or heroic, for example. Same with our +1 to hit doctrine. When I'm finished making tweaks I might post them here rather than keeping them private for my gaming group.

Just keep in mind that the rules should be balanced and not excessively overpowered.

 

The best way to determine this is to see how they play out in outlandish scenarios, and to use averages to guide it.

 

I do think knights of Sigismund is strong if it works against vehicles, but it becomes almost an anti-vehicle or anti monster trait, rather than just a flat buff to close combat which I think it's intended to be.

 

However, I think the rule itself is balanced in this way since it doesn't activate until turn 3, and if you want to use the crusaders helm you can't deep strike or be in transports.

 

I'm not sure why they made it not work against vehicles.. I can't see a compelling case. The white scars doctrine is still better against vehicles even after the fact.

[Sete]

I dont mind our CT working vs just infantry, but should be active on charging, being charged and heroic interventions.

 

I cannot attest to the usefulness of our strats, haven't played for a long time now, and it is my opinion that we need a Primaris option for EC and a new or reworked Primaris HQ, and some sort of Primaris Crusader Squads just to keep a bit of our flavor.

[ThirtySixNights]

I dont mind our CT working vs just infantry, but should be active on charging, being charged and heroic interventions.

 

I cannot attest to the usefulness of our strats, haven't played for a long time now, and it is my opinion that we need a Primaris option for EC and a new or reworked Primaris HQ, and some sort of Primaris Crusader Squads just to keep a bit of our flavor.

I am glad our chapter is the go-to non-primaris. With our chapter tactic and primaris you can already be pretty competitive...

[Sete]

 

I dont mind our CT working vs just infantry, but should be active on charging, being charged and heroic interventions.

 

I cannot attest to the usefulness of our strats, haven't played for a long time now, and it is my opinion that we need a Primaris option for EC and a new or reworked Primaris HQ, and some sort of Primaris Crusader Squads just to keep a bit of our flavor.

I am glad our chapter is the go-to non-primaris. With our chapter tactic and primaris you can already be pretty competitive...

The amount of classic marines releases fills me with confidence for BT to be the "go to non primaris".

 

But I gave my opinion to bring our faction into balance.

It seems you just want feedback for classic marines.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Sete

[ThirtySixNights]

 

 

I dont mind our CT working vs just infantry, but should be active on charging, being charged and heroic interventions.

 

I cannot attest to the usefulness of our strats, haven't played for a long time now, and it is my opinion that we need a Primaris option for EC and a new or reworked Primaris HQ, and some sort of Primaris Crusader Squads just to keep a bit of our flavor.

I am glad our chapter is the go-to non-primaris. With our chapter tactic and primaris you can already be pretty competitive...

The amount of classic marines releases fills me with confidence for BT to be the "go to non primaris".

 

But I gave my opinion to bring our faction into balance.

It seems you just want feedback for classic marines.

We don't have any datasheets for primaris, so that's why I didn't mention them!

 

Though I think if we did, that would make them a lot more competitive.

[Medjugorje]

CHARACTERS

 

- Grimaldus could speak a litany on 2+ and would return on 4+ (like the Guilliman rule / its like what he used to be once but in terms of balancing just the first change)

 

- Emperors Champion changes to -4 AP on the sword. Oathkeeper should integrated as normal rule and he must take "champion of humanity" as his WL-Trait (because the emperor is humanity)

 

- Helbrecht - no changes

 

 

LITANIES

 

- Litanies could be taken from both tables.

 

- Psalm of Rmorseles Persecution allows to reroll any wound roll - not just ones (look at the White Scars they can always speak that litany this way without choosing them) what I think is a punch in every Black Templar face from GW

 

- Vow of Retribution gains the additional effect: fearless

 

- Fires of devotion - you get +1 attack in any case, not just if you charge.

 

- Oath of Glory the unit gains addition +1 to hit

 

STRATAGEMS

 

- Stratagems are all good (the scout one too) but there could be a few new ones to increase the damage output like the world eaters have and one which gives CPs if our Champion slay a charakter

 

UNITS

 

-  Crusader squads should get  an additional rule like zelot which allows them to fight back if they die or hit and wound rerolls. An additional rule to get one special weapon/melee weapon per 5 man would be good as it would be possilbe for scouts too.

 

OR

 

- The Initiate should cost 12 points and a scout 9 points and the rules stay the same.

 

OR

 

- A Stratagem which allows to increase the damage output very high just for one CP

 

WARLORD TRAITS:

 

- Oathkeeper get an additional attack

 

- Paragon of fury gives +2 Attacks  and get + 1 to wound on a charge

 

- Epitome of Piety gives an 4+++ against Mortal wounds in the psychic phase in addition

 

- Master of Arms gives an additional attack and +1 to hit in addition

 

- Inspirational Fighter dont get -AP on units on 6s. Instead all units go into the Assault Doctrine.

 

SUPERDOCTRINE

 

Knights of Sigismund should be reroll all hit rolls in melee or every unit gains a hit roll of 1. Each unit which already have this ability (like captains...) gain reroll all hitrolls.

 

RELICS:

 

- Crusaderhelm does allow you to choose a unit in the movement phase (not just at the start of this phase)

 

- Skull od the Cacodominus should be a steady -2 to cast aura (of 18 or 24")in addition

 

- Sword of Judgement should give an additional Attack or -4 AP. Its okay but not that good

 

 

VIGILUS DETACHMENT

 

Suffer not the unclean should cost just 1 CP if the unit is max 5 models.

 

All Veteran squads like Intercessor Veterans, any Terminators, Sternguard and Vanguard should get the sword brethren keyword

 

The holy orb get an additional rule that the enemy cant take overwatch and get -1 to hit. If the enemy has the Chaos or Deamon keyword each D3 changes to D6 Mortal wounds.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Medjugorje

[Medjugorje]

 

I dont mind our CT working vs just infantry, but should be active on charging, being charged and heroic interventions.

 

I cannot attest to the usefulness of our strats, haven't played for a long time now, and it is my opinion that we need a Primaris option for EC and a new or reworked Primaris HQ, and some sort of Primaris Crusader Squads just to keep a bit of our flavor.

I am glad our chapter is the go-to non-primaris. With our chapter tactic and primaris you can already be pretty competitive...

 

sorry - thats simply not true. There are a lot of things where my Primaris units benefit a lot.

 

Special Anti Psyker Ammo with a Primaris Lieutenant could oneshot each normal psyker - like ariman for example

 

aurelian shroud is so strong on each Primaris vehicle

 

advance and attack is very potential for Aggressors

 

and OF COURSE: devot push for disembarking units from a impulsor are SOOO great. 

[ThirtySixNights]

sorry - thats simply not true. There are a lot of things where my Primaris units benefit a lot.

 

Special Anti Psyker Ammo with a Primaris Lieutenant could oneshot each normal psyker - like ariman for example

 

aurelian shroud is so strong on each Primaris vehicle

 

advance and attack is very potential for Aggressors

 

and OF COURSE: devot push for disembarking units from a impulsor are SOOO great.

Seems like you misunderstood what I said. I said, primaris units are already strong and competitive with our rules, and it seems like you agree with that, but I'm glad you're passionate about it..?

[Medjugorje]

 

sorry - thats simply not true. There are a lot of things where my Primaris units benefit a lot.

 

Special Anti Psyker Ammo with a Primaris Lieutenant could oneshot each normal psyker - like ariman for example

 

aurelian shroud is so strong on each Primaris vehicle

 

advance and attack is very potential for Aggressors

 

and OF COURSE: devot push for disembarking units from a impulsor are SOOO great.

Seems like you misunderstood what I said. I said, primaris units are already strong and competitive with our rules, and it seems like you agree with that, but I'm glad you're passionate about it..?

 

oh yes. I read it wrong. But like I always said, we have to write GW on this. In the last interview/podcast (Episode 33) a rulewriter was a guest and accidentaly he was the writer of Faith and Fury Black Templars supplement. He said that they hear what the community say.

[Hymnblade]

The big items that I think unambiguously should be changed are:

• Crusader squads should drop by 1 point per model for both Initiates and Neophytes, as other people have said. I wouldn't mind a reworked Paired Combatants rule either.
• Knights Of Sigismund should be buffed. It is numerically the weakest super-doctrine of any chapter, and also has the most restrictions. Allowing it to affect vehicles is probably the simplest change that would make it useful.
• Somehow address timing issues with Litanies and the Crusader Helm, so that they can be used on/by units coming out of transports or Deep Strike. A simple fix would be to make these happen during the psychic phase, instead of at the start of the battle round. (This would mean you can't use Litany of Divine Protection against first-turn shooting if you go second, but I'd be OK with that trade.)

Other than these things, I think it's fair to say that something should change, but it's less clear exactly what. I agree that our characters, stratagems, and relics are solid (except the Skull and the Grenade, but lots of factions have a few relic duds, so this isn't a huge priority). I would like to have access to master-crafted weapons and a "your warlord gets a second trait" stratagem like every other supplement, but these aren't critical.

 

Our warlord trait table is pretty lackluster. I would propose that Oathkeeper and Master of Arms could be folded into one trait that gives 6" HI and always-strike-first, which would make the Emperor's Champion a serious HI threat and might see people actually take his WLT sometimes. Master of Arms can then be the name for a trait which actually makes the character fightier in some way, or maybe gives the "Masterful Parry" -1 to melee hit rolls.

 

I would also like to see Inspirational Fighter have an effect that isn't rendered moot by Doctrines, maybe +1 damage instead of -1AP. Also, let it trigger on hit rolls of 6 instead of wound rolls of 6, so it synergizes with Knights of Sigismund instead of anti-synergizing.

 

Some of our issues are simply Codex: SM issues, like the absence of Primaris melee units or the fact that Land Raiders generally aren't good. Without White Scar/Raven Guard deep strike shenanigans or Blood Angel chapter-specific units, we simply don't have any units which are both strong in close combat and have cost-effective delivery methods. Those issues are pretty broad, which makes them hard to fix in a balance update. But to single out just one that would have a big impact, I think Assault Terminators could use a decent point drop. The comparison is especially egregious against Assault Centurions.

[Hymnblade]

As for the skull. Well, it seems to be some sort of attempt to create a single turn null rod. The problem is that you do it in the turn before you want a power to be risky for the enemy. The enemy player can then simply move their pysker out of it's range, most models being able to advance. Even if they are almost right next to your character, they can render it ineffective.

 

And even then, you have to pass a 2+ roll for the event to work.

 

So a chance at d3 mortal wounds if your enemy has no idea how to move their units once per game, is just so indescribably useless. Even to double the effectiveness of this relic it would still be garbage. It needs to be rewritten.

 

Firstly you need to be able to activate it in the enemies turn, so it's a threat for the entire game, until you use it of course.

 

Keeping with it's intended function, it acts as a 12" threat to pyskers.

 

You activate it when the enemy declares they are going to attempt to manifest a power when they are within 12" of your character who has the relic. If they choose to then proceed with their power, every successful manifestation of a power automatically results in a perils of the warp.

 

If the psyker also rolls a perils of the warp, they are considered to suffer the effects of perils twice.

 

If you deny the power. It's not a successful manifestation so, nothing happens.

 

It can only be used once per game and lasts only for one enemy psychic phase.

 

This relic now acts as a successful 12" gotcha, as if you are up close in their face, they have to risk death and possibly the death of nearby units, if they die to perils. They will likely die to perils if they roll a single perils themselves or if they attempt to manifest two powers, so the risk is quite substantial, but they might still take the risk if the power needs to go off.

The Skull goes off on a 2+, not a 4+, and you don't have to declare it on your turn, only once the enemy manifests a power. So, it essentially already does the thing you want, except it can only go off once.

 

The issue is the very short range and the once-per-game limitation. If it were a 12" bubble but could be used every time a psyker manifests (or even just every time that phase), it would have some niche use, eg to throw it on an Incursor sergeant with Crusader Relics, bad-touch a bunch of Thousand Sons or GK units so they can't Advance out of the radius, and then punish them in the following psychic phase. If it were a 24" range but once-per-game, it would be on par with any number of other d3-mortal-wounds relics and stratagems.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Hymnblade

[ThirtySixNights]

 

 

As for the skull. Well, it seems to be some sort of attempt to create a single turn null rod. The problem is that you do it in the turn before you want a power to be risky for the enemy. The enemy player can then simply move their pysker out of it's range, most models being able to advance. Even if they are almost right next to your character, they can render it ineffective.

 

And even then, you have to pass a 2+ roll for the event to work.

 

So a chance at d3 mortal wounds if your enemy has no idea how to move their units once per game, is just so indescribably useless. Even to double the effectiveness of this relic it would still be garbage. It needs to be rewritten.

 

Firstly you need to be able to activate it in the enemies turn, so it's a threat for the entire game, until you use it of course.

 

Keeping with it's intended function, it acts as a 12" threat to pyskers.

 

You activate it when the enemy declares they are going to attempt to manifest a power when they are within 12" of your character who has the relic. If they choose to then proceed with their power, every successful manifestation of a power automatically results in a perils of the warp.

 

If the psyker also rolls a perils of the warp, they are considered to suffer the effects of perils twice.

 

If you deny the power. It's not a successful manifestation so, nothing happens.

 

It can only be used once per game and lasts only for one enemy psychic phase.

 

This relic now acts as a successful 12" gotcha, as if you are up close in their face, they have to risk death and possibly the death of nearby units, if they die to perils. They will likely die to perils if they roll a single perils themselves or if they attempt to manifest two powers, so the risk is quite substantial, but they might still take the risk if the power needs to go off.

The Skull goes off on a 2+, not a 4+, and you don't have to declare it on your turn, only once the enemy manifests a power. So, it essentially already does the thing you want, except it can only go off once.

 

The issue is the very short range and the once-per-game limitation. If it were a 12" bubble but could be used every time a psyker manifests (or even just every time that phase), it would have some niche use, eg to throw it on an Incursor sergeant with Crusader Relics, bad-touch a bunch of Thousand Sons or GK units so they can't Advance out of the radius, and then punish them in the following psychic phase. If it were a 24" range but once-per-game, it would be on par with any number of other d3-mortal-wounds relics and stratagems.

I edited my post seemingly just before you posted yours to update some things but yes you're right about when you activate it.

 

One set of d3 wounds is not enough of a threat for it to be a 12" anti psyker risk.

 

Most characters have 4, if they're unwounded, they risk very little..

[Medjugorje]

@ Hymnblade - its better to have the litanies on the start of each battleround instead of your own because you can have your litanies in the first turn of your enemy. I dont think it should be changed - but the wording for a litany like if its spoken later in the shooting phase (for example) the chaplain could choose the unit. But i am not a fan of it. My issues are more that our litanies / WL-Traits are simply weak if you compare reroll wound rolls of 1 vs the white scars wound reroll

[ThirtySixNights]

The big items that I think unambiguously should be changed are:

 

• Crusader squads should drop by 1 point per model for both Initiates and Neophytes, as other people have said. I wouldn't mind a reworked Paired Combatants rule either.
• Knights Of Sigismund should be buffed. It is numerically the weakest super-doctrine of any chapter, and also has the most restrictions. Allowing it to affect vehicles is probably the simplest change that would make it useful.
• Somehow address timing issues with Litanies and the Crusader Helm, so that they can be used on/by units coming out of transports or Deep Strike. A simple fix would be to make these happen during the psychic phase, instead of at the start of the battle round. (This would mean you can't use Litany of Divine Protection against first-turn shooting if you go second, but I'd be OK with that trade.)

Other than these things, I think it's fair to say that something should change, but it's less clear exactly what. I agree that our characters, stratagems, and relics are solid (except the Skull and the Grenade, but lots of factions have a few relic duds, so this isn't a huge priority). I would like to have access to master-crafted weapons and a "your warlord gets a second trait" stratagem like every other supplement, but these aren't critical.

 

Our warlord trait table is pretty lackluster. I would propose that Oathkeeper and Master of Arms could be folded into one trait that gives 6" HI and always-strike-first, which would make the Emperor's Champion a serious HI threat and might see people actually take his WLT sometimes. Master of Arms can then be the name for a trait which actually makes the character fightier in some way, or maybe gives the "Masterful Parry" -1 to melee hit rolls.

 

I would also like to see Inspirational Fighter have an effect that isn't rendered moot by Doctrines, maybe +1 damage instead of -1AP. Also, let it trigger on hit rolls of 6 instead of wound rolls of 6, so it synergizes with Knights of Sigismund instead of anti-synergizing.

 

Some of our issues are simply Codex: SM issues, like the absence of Primaris melee units or the fact that Land Raiders generally aren't good. Without White Scar/Raven Guard deep strike shenanigans or Blood Angel chapter-specific units, we simply don't have any units which are both strong in close combat and have cost-effective delivery methods. Those issues are pretty broad, which makes them hard to fix in a balance update. But to single out just one that would have a big impact, I think Assault Terminators could use a decent point drop. The comparison is especially egregious against Assault Centurions.

I think these are some pretty balanced suggestions. Couldn't agree more about those three things you mentioned. Even if only those were updated, I think I'd be happy.

[Schlitzaf]

Here my proposal:

General Changes

Knights of Sigismund keeps current restriction but no longer first round only

Move Vigilus Rules* to our “Core” Rules

Combine Oathkeeper and Mortal Wound WT

Master Swordsman Mandatory WT for EC

CHAMPION Model kills a CHARACTER for CP Strategem

 

Chaplain/Priest Changes

Fire’s of Devotion, just grants an additional +1 attack for rest of round

Psalm, reroll all wounds in melee

BT CHAPLAINS & Master of Sanctity have an additional litany

 

Datasheet Changes & Additions:

EChampions, WT is Master Swordsman as required trait, gains 6” base Heroic Intervention and Priest Keyword (so he gets 1 Litany to represent vows)

Crusader Squads get correctly pointed: Initaite minimum to 12.

Paired Combatants Rules is modified; I like idea of Neophytes getting an additional attack.**

Biker Crusader Squads get reintroduced into our rules

Company Veterans w/ BLACK TEMPLAR Keyword can be taken as squads of 2-10.

Marshall-Champion Almerich introduced as Primaris’d/Rubicon or Legacy Character (ala Tycho).

Castallen Draco reintroduced w/ rules.

 

*Keeping Core Rules same removing the CP Tax.

**Idea actually be each pair of Neophyte + Initaite = Chainsword attack. But be too clunky to word so tying it so Neophytes

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Isn't Amalrich dead? Like proper dead, pre-rubicon dead.

[Schlitzaf]

Isn't Amalrich dead? Like proper dead, pre-rubicon dead.

Yeah but retcon. Or more seriously BA Tycho exists

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I didn't see a way to package this as a downloadable text file, so I'm going to drop my version of the revised rules directly into this post. There are issues with them, and I welcome feedback, but this was my best effort after an initial pass.

 

 

 

 

 

Army Wide Rules:

 

SWORD BRETHREN: HIGH MARSHAL HELBRECHT, THE EMPEROR’S CHAMPION, CAPTAINS, COMPANY CHAMPIONS, TERMINATORS, and VETERAN units gain the SWORD BRETHREN keyword. 

 

KNIGHTS OF SIGISMUND

Whilst the Assault Doctrine is active, when resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a BLACK TEMPLARS model with this ability in a turn in which that model made a charge, was charged, or performed a Heroic Intervention, an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically scores a hit and successfully wounds the target (do not make a wound roll).

 

 

 

Character Changes:

 

CHAPLAIN GRIMALDUS

Replace the Righteous Zeal ability with the following:

Hero of Helsreach: Once per battle, at the end of any phase in which CHAPLAIN GRIMALDUS was slain, roll 1d6. On a 4+, return this model to the battlefield with 1d3 wounds. Set it up as close as possible to its previous position and more than 1 inch from any enemy models.

 

CENOBYTE SERVITORS

Mindwiped: Models in this unit have Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill characteristics of 4+, and a Leadership characteristic of 9, whilst their unit is within 6" of CHAPLAIN GRIMALDUS. In addition, whenever CHAPLAIN GRIMALDUS would fail an armor save within 2" of a model from this unit, you can roll 1d6. On a 2+ that armor save is automatically passed and this unit suffers 1 mortal wound.

Relics of Helsreach: while a model from this unit is within 2" of CHAPLAIN GRIMALDUS, add 1 to dice rolls to see if  litanies recited by that model are inspiring.

Chaplain’s Retinue: If your army is Battle-forged, this unit does not take up slots in a Detachment that includes CHAPLAIN GRIMALDUS. While this unit is within 2" of Chaplain Grimaldus, enemy models can only shoot this unit if it is the closest enemy unit (ignore CHARACTERS with a Wounds characteristic of less than 10 when determining if this unit is the closest enemy unit to the firing model). 

 

CRUSADER SQUADS

Cost: 12 points per Initiate, 10 points per Neophyte

Paired Combatants: Whilst this unit contains at least as many Initiates and Sword Brothers as Neophytes, when resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in this unit, add +1 to the hit roll.

 

 

 

Warlord Traits:

 

1 OATHKEEPER 

This Warlord can perform a Heroic Intervention if there are any enemy units within 6" of them instead of 3", and when doing so can move up to 6" instead of 3". In addition, this Warlord always fights first in the Fight phase, even if they did not charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or have  a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

 

2 EPITOME OF PIETY 

This Warlord can attempt to resist one psychic power in your opponent’s Psychic phase in the same manner as a PSYKER by taking a Deny the Witch test. When a Deny the Witch test is taken for this Warlord, add 1 to the total. 

 

3 PARAGON OF FURY 

This Warlord can fight twice in each fight phase, instead of only once.

 

4 MASTER OF ARMS 

When resolving an attack made with a weapon wielded by this Warlord, an unmodified hit roll of 6 counts as 2 hits. If this Warlord is benefiting from KNIGHTS OF SIGISMUND, and the attack was made with a melee weapon, both hits successfully wound (do not make wound rolls).

 

5 INSPIRATIONAL FIGHTER 

Friendly BLACK TEMPLARS units within 6" of this Warlord trigger KNIGHTS OF SIGISMUND on unmodified hit rolls of 5 rather than 6.

 

6 FRONT-LINE COMMANDER 

When a friendly BLACK TEMPLARS unit within 6" of this Warlord Advances or makes a charge move, add 1 to the Advance roll or charge roll. 

 

NAMED CHARACTERS 

If one of the following characters is your Warlord, they must 

have the associated Warlord Trait shown below: 

CHARACTER WARLORD TRAIT 

High Marshal Helbrecht Front-line Commander 

Chaplain Grimaldus Epitome of Piety 

The Emperor’s Champion Oathkeeper 

 

 

 

LITANIES OF THE DEVOUT

 

1 LITANY OF DIVINE PROTECTION 

If this litany is inspiring, when a model in a friendly BLACK TEMPLARS infantry unit within 6" of this model would lose a wound, roll one D6; on a 5+ that wound is not lost. 

 

2 PSALM OF REMORSELESS PERSECUTION 

If this litany is inspiring, then when resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in a friendly BLACK TEMPLARS unit within 6" of this model, you can reroll the wound roll. 

 

3 VOW OF RETRIBUTION 

If this litany is inspiring, select 1 enemy unit within 24" of this model. Friendly BLACK TEMPLARS units that declare a charge targetting only that unit roll 3d6 for that charge roll rather than 2d6.

 

4 FIRES OF DEVOTION 

If this litany is inspiring, at the end of the charge phase select one friendly BLACK TEMPLARS unit within 6" of this model. If that unit made a charge move, was charged,  or performed a Heroic Intervention, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in that unit until the end of the turn. 

 

5 FERVENT ACCLAMATION 

If this litany is inspiring, add 3" to the range of friendly BLACK TEMPLARS units’ aura abilities whilst they are within 6" of this model. 

 

6 OATH OF GLORY 

If this litany is inspiring, friendly BLACK TEMPLARS units within 6" of this model always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they did not make a charge move that turn. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place. 

 

 

 

Stratagems:

 

ABHOR THE WITCH (1 CP)

Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Psychic phase, when an enemy PSYKER model manifests a psychic power within 24" of any BLACK TEMPLARS units from your army, after any Deny the Witch attempts have been made. Roll one D6; on a 4+ that psychic power is resisted. 

 

CRUSADER RELICS (1 CP)

Use this Stratagem before the battle. Select one BLACK TEMPLARS model from your army that has the word ‘Sergeant’ or ‘Sword Brother’ in their profile. That model can have one of the following Chapter Relics: Witchseeker Bolts, Sword of Judgement, Skull of the Cacodominus, Holy Orb. All of the Relics your army includes must be different and be given to different models. 

 

VICIOUS RIPOSTE (1 CP)

Use this Stratagem in the Fight phase, when a BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit from your army is chosen as the target of an attack. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, on an unmodified save roll of 6 the attacking model’s unit suffers 1 mortal wound after that unit has finished fighting. 

 

SHOCK AND AWE (1 CP)

Use this Stratagem in your Charge phase. Select one BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit from your army that disembarked from a transport this turn. Until the end of that turn, enemy units cannot fire Overwatch at the selected unit and, when resolving an attack made against that unit, subtract 1 from the hit roll. 

 

THE EMPEROR’S WILL (1 CP)

Use this Stratagem in your Movement phase, when a BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit from your army Advances. Until the end of this turn, models from that unit can still shoot with their Pistol weapons and the unit can still charge. 

 

OATHS OF HONOUR (1 CP)

Use this Stratagem in the Fight phase. Select one BLACK TEMPLARS CRUSADERS unit from your army that made a charge move, was charged, or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model in that unit, you can re-roll the wound roll. 

 

DEVOUT PUSH (1 CP)

Use this Stratagem at the end of the Charge phase. Select one BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit or one BLACK TEMPLARS BIKER unit from your army. That unit can immediately perform a Heroic Intervention as if it were your opponent's turn, regardless of whether or not it is a character. For the rest of the turn, when that unit consolidates, it can move up to 6" instead of 3". 

 

TENACIOUS ASSAULT (2 CP)

Use this Stratagem in the Movement phase, when an enemy INFANTRY unit that does not have the Flyer Battlefield Role and is within 1" of any BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit from your army is chosen to Fall Back. Roll one D6; on a 2+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn. 

 

BLESSINGS OF RIGHTEOUS CERTAINTY (1 CP)

Use this Stratagem before the battle begins. If THE EMPEROR'S CHAMPION is in your army, but is not your Warlord, that unit gains the OATHKEEPER Warlord Trait but is not treated as your Warlord for any other reason.

 

ZEALOUS CRUSADER (1 CP)

Use this Stratagem after nominating a BLACK TEMPLARS CHARACTER model that is not a named character to be your  Warlord. You can generate one additional Warlord Trait for  them; this must be from the BLACK TEMPLARS Warlord Traits table. All of the Warlord Traits your army includes must be different (if randomly generated, re-roll duplicate results). You can only use this Stratagem once per battle. 

 

JUDGEMENT WITHOUT MERCY (1 CP)

Use this Stratagem in the Fight phase, when an enemy CHARACTER model is destroyed as a result of an attack made with a melee weapon by a black templars CHARACTER model from your army. Gain D3 Command Points. If the enemy CHARACTER was slain by the EMPEROR'S CHAMPION, gain 3 Command Points instead.

 

SUFFER NOT THE UNCLEAN TO LIVE (1 CP)

Use this Stratagem at the start of the Fight phase. Pick a SWORD BRETHREN unit from your army. Add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in that unit for this phase. In addition, you can re-roll wound rolls for attacks made by that unit until the end of that phase. 

 

UPHOLD THE HONOUR OF THE EMPEROR (2 CP)

Use this Stratagem at the start of the Fight phase. Pick a SWORD BRETHREN unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, roll a D6 each time a model in that unit loses a wound. On a 5+, that model does not lose that wound. 

 

 

 

Relics:

As a Successor Chapter of the EMPERIAL FISTS, BLACK TEMPLARS units have access to the Special Issue Wargear found in the EMPERIAL FISTS supplament.

 

THE CRUSADER’S HELM 

Add 3" to the range of a model with this Relic’s aura abilities (to a maximum of 12"). In addition, at the end of your Movement phase, select one friendly BLACK TEMPLARS unit that has a Combat Doctrines ability (see Codex: Space Marines) and is within 6" of this model. Until the start of your next Movement phase, the Assault Doctrine becomes active for that unit, replacing the currently active combat doctrine. 

 

WITCHSEEKER BOLTS 

Select one bolt weapon this model is equipped with (see Codex: Space Marines). 

When the bearer shoots with that weapon, you can choose for it to fire a witchseeker round. If you do, you can only make one attack with that weapon, but that attack can target a PSYKER CHARACTER unit even if it is not the closest enemy unit. When resolving an attack made with a witchseeker round against a PSYKER unit, if a hit is scored the target suffers D3 mortal wounds in addition to any other damage. 

 

THE AURILLIAN SHROUD 

Once per battle, at the start of the battle round, a model with this Relic can unveil the Aurillian Shroud. Until the end of that battle round, models in friendly BLACK TEMPLARS units have a 4+ invulnerable save whilst their unit is within 3" of a model with this Relic. 

 

ANCIENT BREVIARY 

CHAPLAIN model only. When a roll is made to determine if a litany recited by a model with this Relic is inspiring, you can roll two D6 and discard one of the results. 

 

SKULL OF THE CACODOMINUS 

After a psychic power has been manifested by an enemy PSYKER model within 12" of a model with this Relic, roll one D6; on a 2+ that model suffers D3 mortal wounds after that psychic power has been resolved. 

 

SWORD OF JUDGEMENT 

Model with a power sword or one master-crafted power sword only. This Relic replaces a power sword or master-crafted power sword and has the following profile: 

WEAPON RANGE TYPE S AP D 

Sword of Judgement Melee Melee +1 -3 3 

 

THE HOLY ORB 

Once per battle, in your Shooting phase, you can choose for the bearer to throw the Holy Orb instead of making a normal shooting attack. If you do so, pick a visible enemy unit within 6" of the bearer and roll a D6 for every 10 models in that unit (rounding up). For each roll of 2+ that unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. If that unit has the DAEMON keyword then it suffers D6 wounds instead.

 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

Isn't Amalrich dead? Like proper dead, pre-rubicon dead.

Yeah but retcon. Or more seriously BA Tycho exists

 

But he's a hangover for a model which existed with a datasheet.

 

I'd rather have a new character, with new plot and new fluff, than retcon a dead one back to life, especially one whose death had such purpose.

[Brother Tyler]

Without getting into specifics of how I would change the rules, I suggest re-thinking the motivation. The objective I would prefer would be to get the rules and effectiveness:

(top tier)

OBJECTIVE (the sweet spot)

(bottom tier)

Being "top tier" invites being nerfed. Being "bottom tier" sucks and prays for being buffed. Being a middle of the pack performer, theoretically at the sweet spot of balance and use, allows for being left alone (in terms of rules nerfs/buffs) while remaining attractive for playing.

[Schlitzaf]

Isn't Amalrich dead? Like proper dead, pre-rubicon dead.

Yeah but retcon. Or more seriously BA Tycho exists

But he's a hangover for a model which existed with a datasheet.

I'd rather have a new character, with new plot and new fluff, than retcon a dead one back to life, especially one whose death had such purpose.

Fair; I did love Almerich character alot biggest disappointment was his lack of getting rules and/or model. Also he represent a unique case of a marshall/captain teir character becoming EChampion

Without getting into specifics of how I would change the rules, I suggest re-thinking the motivation. The objective I would prefer would be to get the rules and effectiveness:

(top tier)

OBJECTIVE (the sweet spot)

(bottom tier)

Being "top tier" invites being nerfed. Being "bottom tier" sucks and prays for being buffed. Being a middle of the pack performer, theoretically at the sweet spot of balance and use, allows for being left alone (in terms of rules nerfs/buffs) while remaining attractive for playing.

Honestly speaking; we are in a great place. If Vigilus stuff gets CP Tax Removed and Master Swordsman one of our six warlord traits. The only thing we need;

Knights of Sigismund is just when a BT unit fights in close combat while in Assault Doctrine

Correctly pointed Crusader Squads (12 Points Initaites. And Paired Combatants given a moderate fix. I prefer just taking current rule and replace reroll 1’s part of the rule with “may make an additional attack with that weapon)

Crusader Bike Squads (okay we don’t need this and its just completionist in me. But the severe lack of this unit having rules remains a massive disappointment for me)

Company Veterans when taken as Black Templars can be taken in squads of up to 10 Models

The other things we need is more of a want tbf those things up there alone would improve our chapter and help us alot. The other minor changes be changing Psalm to Reroll All Wounds and +1 Attack Litany I noted above would be sweet but not needed changes.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Schlitzaf

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

 

Isn't Amalrich dead? Like proper dead, pre-rubicon dead.

Yeah but retcon. Or more seriously BA Tycho exists

But he's a hangover for a model which existed with a datasheet.

 

I'd rather have a new character, with new plot and new fluff, than retcon a dead one back to life, especially one whose death had such purpose.

Fair; I did love Almerich character alot biggest disappointment was his lack of getting rules and/or model. Also he represent a unique case of a marshall/captain teir character becoming EChampion

 

Although, strict fluff wise, the less said about that particular ascendance to Championhood the better. It's almost as bad as the one at the end of Helsreach!

[ThirtySixNights]

Without getting into specifics of how I would change the rules, I suggest re-thinking the motivation. The objective I would prefer would be to get the rules and effectiveness:

(top tier)OBJECTIVE (the sweet spot)(bottom tier)

Being "top tier" invites being nerfed. Being "bottom tier" sucks and prays for being buffed. Being a middle of the pack performer, theoretically at the sweet spot of balance and use, allows for being left alone (in terms of rules nerfs/buffs) while remaining attractive for playing.

There are a lot of great suggestions here and I want to thank everyone for sharing as I like all of them.

I definitely feel we only need a few small changes to a couple of datasheets to be in this sweet spot. Although I'd love to be top tier and pounding xenos to the dust, it just doesn't seem enjoyable to me.

My feeling is that everyone agrees that crusader squads and strategems need a bit of an overhaul.

I think a few mentioned changing the wording on Devout Push, personally I think it's weird alternative use of a free 6" pile in move on any unit, anywhere in the board is just odd, poorly worded and poorly thought out.

I think a good guide for what is considered powerful is other space marine chapters, and if we can get up to the same tier as even white scars, I think that would be perfect.. maybe even too good!

Also emperor's champion is already good enough, crazy good. Yeah 1cp to get his warlord trait, cool. But giving him master swordsman is bonkers. The guy already kills almost every character datasheet short of hive tyrants, girlyman and ghaz.

Try putting him near grimaldus ;)