Legiones Astartes - Early Crusade Equipment

[STC Logisengine]

True, however the Treaty with Mars was signed before Unification was complete on Terra and before the pacification of Luna, and Volkites was used on Terra during Unification, as for Adrathic arms only the Custodes and the Imperial Household are entrusted with these weapons.

Spartans where not designed to transport terminators, that is old, dead canon from WD 119 for a landraider conversion rick priestly made, nor are the Spartan a land raider anymore, but its own beast, equal in age but made for a different battlefield role than the proteus Raider. :)

[lansalt]

Where they? I guess legionaries with fresh volkite weapons could have been fielded in the very last terran remnants against imperial unification before the crusade started, but the dates are all over the place.

 

As for the Spartan, the tale about being a larger Land Raider developed to carry Terminators has been retold a couple times since WD 119 (1989) in  Black Library publications. In Epic 40000 Firepower magazine #3 (1999)  there is an entry about the Land Raider MkII Modified "Spartan" before the current model was released in 2012. Imperial Armor vol.2 , 2e (2013) more or less repeats the same tale of the "Ring of Death" of WD. AFAIK none of this as been really retconned and every mention of the Spartan in media usually talks about being evolved from the original LR to carry termies and the Phobos being the later development.

Edited April 14, 2020 by lansalt

[No Foes Remain]

In regards to the Spartan, the new lore paints it being used during the Unification of the Sol System so it was about pretty early.

 

To the other matters regarding Volkites and Terminator armour, I didn't really know where to put them. Lore states that Volkites were used before bolters and were standard issue to the early Legiones Astartes, Terminator armour was about early Crusade but how early it isn't really said which is why I place them where they are.

 

If anyone can come up with suggestions backed up by lore I would welcome it, trouble with all of it being spread across the 8 (soon to be 9) Black Books and the Red Books is that stuff gets missed.

 

 

 

 

Also to point out, this started as me asking a question then turning it into a repository thread for this information as I was unable to find it anywhere else.

[Beren]

In Valdor the very first deployment of Marines was armed with Bolters. I would presume there was a period when Astartes lacked access to volkite production then a period where they gained access to it, then a period where extended supply lines and maintenance and size requirements saw them switch back to Bolters.

[StrangerOrders]

Terminator armor first entered testing around the fall of Gardinaal which was around the time of Jaghatai's finding, in the lates 880s iirc. (Ferrus Manus Novel).

 

Spartans were already in use by then as mentioned in the very same book btw.

 

Jetbikes were available around that time as well. (Jaghatai's novel)

 

Iirc Castaferrum were a pretty late edition to the Crusade arsenal, around the time the Legions started going really bonkers with numbers. 

 

On the subject of Dread's one of the Contemptors for the Iron Hands is actually interred during Gardinaal, but it is possible that he was merely interred in a forerunner pattern and switched over later. (FM Novel).

 

The Deredeo is amusingly very old but rarely used, with a resurgence in popularity around the late Crusade after it initially fell out of favor.

 

I'd also guess anything with the 'Phobos' name is pretty early on given that it seems to have produced the bulk of early Crusade gear (Bolt guns, Rhinos, MKII, etc).

[lansalt]

I've been unable to find anything about Spartans in the solar unification in HH 3 Extermination. However, note that there are *two* Spartans in lore: the original modified LR Proteus, and the newer chassis used also by the Thypoon, etc.

 The same was done by FW with the Furibundus dreadnought, which depending on weapons loadout, was designated as "Contemptor class" or "Deredeo class". Later this was developed as distinct machines patterns that inherited the same function in the legions. This nicely fits with both the original lore and the current one. Seem like a natural progression.

 

Speaking of the Furibundus, in HH3 there is the purge of Jupiter's moon Lysithea by the pre-Corax Raven Guard, after which a Shade-Captain Vholtari was put inside a Furibundus dread and later died in Gate Forty Two just after Ullanor.

 

Nice to have a named Furibundus with a long service!

[StrangerOrders]

I've been unable to find anything about Spartans in the solar unification in HH 3 Extermination. However, note that there are *two* Spartans in lore: the original modified LR Proteus, and the newer chassis used also by the Thypoon, etc.

 

 The same was done by FW with the Furibundus dreadnought, which depending on weapons loadout, was designated as "Contemptor class" or "Deredeo class". Later this was developed as distinct machines patterns that inherited the same function in the legions. This nicely fits with both the original lore and the current one. Seem like a natural progression.

 

Speaking of the Furibundus, in HH3 there is the purge of Jupiter's moon Lysithea by the pre-Corax Raven Guard, after which a Shade-Captain Vholtari was put inside a Furibundus dread and later died in Gate Forty Two just after Ullanor.

 

Nice to have a named Furibundus with a long service!

Which book is that 'Furibundus used Contemptor and Deredeo as designations' note from? I dont recall it being mentioned anywhere.

 

The Ferrus Manus book does very explicitly note that he has never allowed another tank to carry him into battle other than a Spartan. Given that he was third-found and not that long after Russ, it would be very implausible for the Tank to not be very early in the Crusade.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

 

I've been unable to find anything about Spartans in the solar unification in HH 3 Extermination. However, note that there are *two* Spartans in lore: the original modified LR Proteus, and the newer chassis used also by the Thypoon, etc.

 

 The same was done by FW with the Furibundus dreadnought, which depending on weapons loadout, was designated as "Contemptor class" or "Deredeo class". Later this was developed as distinct machines patterns that inherited the same function in the legions. This nicely fits with both the original lore and the current one. Seem like a natural progression.

 

Speaking of the Furibundus, in HH3 there is the purge of Jupiter's moon Lysithea by the pre-Corax Raven Guard, after which a Shade-Captain Vholtari was put inside a Furibundus dread and later died in Gate Forty Two just after Ullanor.

 

Nice to have a named Furibundus with a long service!

Which book is that 'Furibundus used Contemptor and Deredeo as designations' note from? I dont recall it being mentioned anywhere.

 

The Ferrus Manus book does very explicitly note that he has never allowed another tank to carry him into battle other than a Spartan. Given that he was third-found and not that long after Russ, it would be very implausible for the Tank to not be very early in the Crusade.

 

 

Then again he was among the taller primarchs, maybe he just walked ;)

 

Regarding your comment about Castraferrum being a later development earlier, I am going to have to disagree unfortunately, as the entry in the red book for the Contemptor dreadnought talon specifically states: "Regarded by many as the most advanced and powerful pattern of Dreadnought in the arsenal of the Great Crusade, the Contemptor is a relatively recent design..." followed by this mention later "These advantages over the older Lucifer and Castraferrum pattern Dreadnoughts however are not without their price." This is to me a pretty clear indication that the Castraferrum have been around since before the Contemptor was created, which is further supported by this mention in the Legion dreadnought talon (which is represented in game with the Castraferrum Mk IV and Mk V models: "Dreadnoughts have their roots far back in the Dark Age of Technology, and have endured in idiosyncratic forms both on Mars and with the techno-barbaric warlords of Terra..."

 

That being said, the evidence also points to these Castraferrums being the marks I-III since the red book entry for Legion Mortis dreadnought states: "Initially, the majority of the Mortis sub-pattern Dreadnoughts were of the Contemptor type, but as the Castraferrum patterns (Mk IV and MK V) Dreadnoughts have entered service in increasing numbers..." [this is wonky wording, replicated as it is in my digital ebook]

 

Judging from these, it seems that there used to be old dreadnoughts that were used on Terra even before the unification wars started. Then both Lucifer and Castraferrum marks I-III were used in the early days of the Great Crusade before the Contemptor design was finished, which was kind of like the Porsche of the dreadnoughts: everybody wanted them, but they were a lot more expensive to create compared to the cheaper Castraferrum Mark IV and Mark V models, so even though it was the superior model, a lot of Astartes ended up being interred in these cheaper versions.

 

As a final point regarding dreadnoughts, the Deredeo entry has this tidbit: "The Deredeo pattern was developed [...] to improve upon the fusion of Terran and Mechanicum technology which gave birth to the first Legiones Astartes Dreadnoughts, such as the Castraferrum and Lucifer patterns." Forgeworld have left the door open to add to this list of initial desings, but I think this definitely states that when the first space marines got wounded and had to be interred into a dreadnought, both Castraferrum and Lucifer were there as available designs. So even though we have no idea what a Castraferrum Mk I dreadnought looks like, that is where you would have ended up while the fighting was still on-going in the Solar system.

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

I've been unable to find anything about Spartans in the solar unification in HH 3 Extermination. However, note that there are *two* Spartans in lore: the original modified LR Proteus, and the newer chassis used also by the Thypoon, etc.

 

 The same was done by FW with the Furibundus dreadnought, which depending on weapons loadout, was designated as "Contemptor class" or "Deredeo class". Later this was developed as distinct machines patterns that inherited the same function in the legions. This nicely fits with both the original lore and the current one. Seem like a natural progression.

 

Speaking of the Furibundus, in HH3 there is the purge of Jupiter's moon Lysithea by the pre-Corax Raven Guard, after which a Shade-Captain Vholtari was put inside a Furibundus dread and later died in Gate Forty Two just after Ullanor.

 

Nice to have a named Furibundus with a long service!

Which book is that 'Furibundus used Contemptor and Deredeo as designations' note from? I dont recall it being mentioned anywhere.

 

The Ferrus Manus book does very explicitly note that he has never allowed another tank to carry him into battle other than a Spartan. Given that he was third-found and not that long after Russ, it would be very implausible for the Tank to not be very early in the Crusade.

 

 

Then again he was among the taller primarchs, maybe he just walked

 

Regarding your comment about Castraferrum being a later development earlier, I am going to have to disagree unfortunately, as the entry in the red book for the Contemptor dreadnought talon specifically states: "Regarded by many as the most advanced and powerful pattern of Dreadnought in the arsenal of the Great Crusade, the Contemptor is a relatively recent design..." followed by this mention later "These advantages over the older Lucifer and Castraferrum pattern Dreadnoughts however are not without their price." This is to me a pretty clear indication that the Castraferrum have been around since before the Contemptor was created, which is further supported by this mention in the Legion dreadnought talon (which is represented in game with the Castraferrum Mk IV and Mk V models: "Dreadnoughts have their roots far back in the Dark Age of Technology, and have endured in idiosyncratic forms both on Mars and with the techno-barbaric warlords of Terra..."

 

That being said, the evidence also points to these Castraferrums being the marks I-III since the red book entry for Legion Mortis dreadnought states: "Initially, the majority of the Mortis sub-pattern Dreadnoughts were of the Contemptor type, but as the Castraferrum patterns (Mk IV and MK V) Dreadnoughts have entered service in increasing numbers..." [this is wonky wording, replicated as it is in my digital ebook]

 

Judging from these, it seems that there used to be old dreadnoughts that were used on Terra even before the unification wars started. Then both Lucifer and Castraferrum marks I-III were used in the early days of the Great Crusade before the Contemptor design was finished, which was kind of like the Porsche of the dreadnoughts: everybody wanted them, but they were a lot more expensive to create compared to the cheaper Castraferrum Mark IV and Mark V models, so even though it was the superior model, a lot of Astartes ended up being interred in these cheaper versions.

 

As a final point regarding dreadnoughts, the Deredeo entry has this tidbit: "The Deredeo pattern was developed [...] to improve upon the fusion of Terran and Mechanicum technology which gave birth to the first Legiones Astartes Dreadnoughts, such as the Castraferrum and Lucifer patterns." Forgeworld have left the door open to add to this list of initial desings, but I think this definitely states that when the first space marines got wounded and had to be interred into a dreadnought, both Castraferrum and Lucifer were there as available designs. So even though we have no idea what a Castraferrum Mk I dreadnought looks like, that is where you would have ended up while the fighting was still on-going in the Solar system.

 

That's a fair point, my thinking was based on the WB Castaferrum in Massacre which goes out of its way to note that the Dreads were pretty new and rising sharply in number. Red book is newer so its a trump there.

 

FW is weirdly inconsistent there though because Contemptors are repeatedly noted to be a mainstay for most of the Astartes Legions very quickly after their introduction. More like a really popular middle class model, since the high class would be the Custodes and their silly toys. 

 

We dont have any dates for really early dreads beyond the Shade-Captain Furibundas however unless you want to count the Ur-Gholem patterns. Although I am unsure if the Ur-Gholem was used by the Astartes though.

 

Also, it is possible that the lore is outdated because the same book has the Leviathan and the Deredeo, both of which make similar claims. So there might be a bit of necessary salt there.

 

I looked through the Black Books and found that the dates of Contemptor are extremely sketchy.

 

Consider that the liberation of Sarum was one of if not the first actions of Angron as a Primarch. We know he was found about a century before the heresy (Per Betrayer). We also know that a Lucifer destroyed there was placed into one of their new Contemptors. That would put the Contemptor pattern at a century old.

 

But by that same token, he was wounded at Rangda (and served as a Lucifer for a century after) and the FIRST master of Ordnance of the XIIth which is a pretty unlikely resume. It would also create the strange suggestion that the Imperium somehow reach Rangda in the very early Crusade and was either driven back or stalled yet the Xenocides did not come until the following century. Which is all weird.

 

Granted, it might just be possible that the writers (well, mostly Bligh) didnt bother to make sure their dates aligned on this stuff.

 

It might also be possible that they've been gradually retconning introduction dates because people like to play Crusade games and BL realizes making their gear older helps sell models for that sort of people.

Edited April 15, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[lansalt]

The Furibundus, Contemptor and Deredeo  were first named as classes of the original RT imperial dread in WD 100 and other supplements. This is a nice diagram from the Space Marine game (horus heresy epic 1st ed.): https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0258/93/1373315048391.jpg and here is a catalogue http://www.solegends.org/citcat1989mo/c1989mop0012-00.htm with the chaos version too (clearly the inspiration for the Mhara Gal Tainted Dreadnought). There was also a fourth siege variant in Warhammer Siege called "Samson" which never got a model.

Seems that FW left the Furibundus as the explicit namesake of the RT dread and used the class names as the basis for the modern models.

The Furibundus and terran proto-dreads ("Ur-Gholem pattern" in HH7) are said to be used also by normal humans, while the mkI-III and Lucifer were the first exclusive for transhumans like astartes. I take this as the Furibundus was a standardized version of these earlier dreads made for all services, hence the original name of just "Imperial Dreadnought" until it was restricted to more worthy occupants.

While there are no named images of MkI-III, I think the 2e metal chaos dread can be taken as a clue of how they could look (The exposed head, the chassis with a single bolter in each side, the "mk1 plasma cannon"...)

I agree that the MkIV-V are meant to be mid Crusade at earliest.
 

As you said, in HH1 Betrayal there is a drawing of a terran World Eaters Contemptor whose occupant is said to have used a Lucifer since he was wounded at Rangda (860s.M30? way after Sol was secured), until a century later he got a then new Contemptor after the liberation of Sarum.

 

Yeah, the dates are all over the place. But if a wounded Raven Guard captain in HH3 was put in a Furibundus after the purge of a Jupiter's tenth moon, it seems reasonable to think that they gave a captain a new dread instead of a obsolete one.

 

[StrangerOrders]

The Furibundus, Contemptor and Deredeo  were first named as classes of the original RT imperial dread in WD 100 and other supplements. This is a nice diagram from the Space Marine game (horus heresy epic 1st ed.): https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0258/93/1373315048391.jpg and here is a catalogue http://www.solegends.org/citcat1989mo/c1989mop0012-00.htm with the chaos version too (clearly the inspiration for the Mhara Gal Tainted Dreadnought). There was also a fourth siege variant in Warhammer Siege called "Samson" which never got a model.

 

Seems that FW left the Furibundus as the explicit namesake of the RT dread and used the class names as the basis for the modern models.

 

The Furibundus and terran proto-dreads ("Ur-Gholem pattern" in HH7) are said to be used also by normal humans, while the mkI-III and Lucifer were the first exclusive for transhumans like astartes. I take this as the Furibundus was a standardized version of these earlier dreads made for all services, hence the original name of just "Imperial Dreadnought" until it was restricted to more worthy occupants.

 

While there are no named images of MkI-III, I think the 2e metal chaos dread can be taken as a clue of how they could look (The exposed head, the chassis with a single bolter in each side, the "mk1 plasma cannon"...)

 

I agree that the MkIV-V are meant to be mid Crusade at earliest.

 

As you said, in HH1 Betrayal there is a drawing of a terran World Eaters Contemptor whose occupant is said to have used a Lucifer since he was wounded at Rangda (860s.M30? way after Sol was secured), until a century later he got a then new Contemptor after the liberation of Sarum.

 

Yeah, the dates are all over the place. But if a wounded Raven Guard captain in HH3 was put in a Furibundus after the purge of a Jupiter's tenth moon, it seems reasonable to think that they gave a captain a new dread instead of a obsolete one.

 

 

Ya, it might be that they messed up.

 

Rangda is most commonly placed as being around the 890s-910s, with most references being around the turn of the century. 

 

Which doesnt add up because Sarum would have been contemporaneous. Since its liberation was about the same time as the late Randga, which we know from Betrayal to have been one of the very first actions of the newly rechristened World Eaters and we similarly know Angron assumed control around 905 per Betrayer. So there is a big problem there.

 

The bigger problem is actually his Lucifer pattern. He is both the first Master of Ordnance of his Legion and among the first Dreadnoughts.

 

Its really bizarre to think that a Legion known for zone mortalis, close combat and saw very heavy attrition in Sol would only start using Dreads by Rangda. 

 

There is just alot that is off there.

 

Worse yet, in the Angron Primarch novel which is set only a few years after his discovery, we see that the World Eaters were already making considerable use of Contemptor dreadnoughts. They even went as far as to describe them in enough detail to make the pattern unmistakable.

 

So... ya, I think that Forgeworld is all over the place with their dreadnoughts.

 

Actually, since we are hardly short on time. Im going to see if I can go through book by book and amass a list of known dreadnought's with their cause of internment, date and model from the Black Books (not going to reread the entire HH) and through em on here. They relate to the OP's question and will give us a good reference point for this discussion.

 

I dont have Tempest and tragically loaned out Retribution before the apocalypse to a friend, so if anyone has Dreads from there it would be kind of them to pitch in!

[StrangerOrders]

Alright, here is the list:

 

III-

Sarancos- Contemptor- No indication beyond 'Ancient' status.

Unknown- Contemptor.

IV-

Vhakis- Contemptor- Fell seven decades after Perturabo's discovery and explicitly in a Contemptor (so 919).

V-

Tegusai- Contemptor- No Data.

 

VI-

Arn Therod- Leviathan- No Data.

Har Skrinn- Contemptor- No Data.

VII-

Justici Ghunfried- Contemptor- Warrior of the earliest campaigns, fell in the Onyx Manse.

VIII-

Carrow- Contemptor- No data.

Reeve- Contemptor- Fell to Eldar Raiders.

IX-

Jophial- Leviathan- No Data.

X-

Oberas-Contemptor- Fell on Istvaan.

Urien- Contemptor- Fell against the Psy-Gore less than a decade before Istvaan V.

Morn- Contemptor- Fell at Gardinaal and was explicitly buried in a Contemptor (869).

 

XII-

Juljak Nul- Lucifer for a Century+/Contemptor - Rangda (Earliest 860s per Inferno, 890s per Tempest)/ Liberation of Sarum (Early 900s). 

Styvath- Contemptor- Notes that Contemptor operating systems do not mesh well with nails.

XIV-

Skorrvall- Contemptor- Fell at Neverlight (one of Mortarion's mortal allies)

Kahgor Lothsul- Contemptor- Fell one year before Istvaan to orks.

XV-

Hedara Ptomalac- Contemptor- Noted to be one of the first Prosperene Legionaries and later one of the first Contemptors after Rakotis.

XVI-

Ghrastak- Contemptor- Fell to Khrave of Morduna- Date Unknown.

Unknown- Contemptor- No record but notes that the XVIth protoyped the Kheres.

XVII-

Eochikaar- Contemptor- Fell at Sarapis.

Eriban- Castaferrum- No Data.

Ishelin- Castaferrum- No Data.

XVIII-

Grenn- Contemptor- Unknown Data.

XIX-

Krahzen- Contemptor- Fell on a Space Hulk during the Coreward advances.

Vholtari- Furibundas- Fell in the Jovian Ranges, no mention of a switch.

XX-

Archontas Orico- Contemptor- I am Alpharius. Explicitly notes that the Contemptor was the mainstay of the late Crusade.

 

 

So the big takeaways are that Contemptors were common as early as 869, the mainstay of Dreadnoughts by the late Crusade and either not in production until after Magnus was found in 840 or the XV were not rated for that wargear due to super cancer).

Edited April 15, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[battle captain corpus]

This is an awesome idea for a thread, great work guys! Love it!

 

Be great if we had pics as examples for each section too maybe?

 

BCC

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

 

 

 

Snip

Snip

 

 

Snip

 

That's a fair point, my thinking was based on the WB Castaferrum in Massacre which goes out of its way to note that the Dreads were pretty new and rising sharply in number. Red book is newer so its a trump there.

 

FW is weirdly inconsistent there though because Contemptors are repeatedly noted to be a mainstay for most of the Astartes Legions very quickly after their introduction. More like a really popular middle class model, since the high class would be the Custodes and their silly toys. 

 

We dont have any dates for really early dreads beyond the Shade-Captain Furibundas however unless you want to count the Ur-Gholem patterns. Although I am unsure if the Ur-Gholem was used by the Astartes though.

 

Also, it is possible that the lore is outdated because the same book has the Leviathan and the Deredeo, both of which make similar claims. So there might be a bit of necessary salt there.

 

I looked through the Black Books and found that the dates of Contemptor are extremely sketchy.

 

Consider that the liberation of Sarum was one of if not the first actions of Angron as a Primarch. We know he was found about a century before the heresy (Per Betrayer). We also know that a Lucifer destroyed there was placed into one of their new Contemptors. That would put the Contemptor pattern at a century old.

 

But by that same token, he was wounded at Rangda (and served as a Lucifer for a century after) and the FIRST master of Ordnance of the XIIth which is a pretty unlikely resume. It would also create the strange suggestion that the Imperium somehow reach Rangda in the very early Crusade and was either driven back or stalled yet the Xenocides did not come until the following century. Which is all weird.

 

Granted, it might just be possible that the writers (well, mostly Bligh) didnt bother to make sure their dates aligned on this stuff.

 

It might also be possible that they've been gradually retconning introduction dates because people like to play Crusade games and BL realizes making their gear older helps sell models for that sort of people.

 

 

Good point about the Contemptors being the standard dreadnought and thus more like a Volvo maybe rather than a Porsche. It is just wonky that this is supported by multiple sources even as multiple sources also claim that they are relatively difficult and expensive to create compared to the Castraferrum models. I don't think any Astartes ended up in the Ur-Gholem models unless it was a really rare exception though, the Deredeo entry is pretty definite about the Lucifer and Castraferrum being the first Legiones Astartes dreadnoughts models, indicating that ending up in one of those would have been a standardized medical procedure with instructions for apothecaries on what to do and in what situations. There are potential exceptions in that if you are taking over a facility on Terra that is producing those Ur-Gholems and then an apothecary has a mortally wounded legionnaire and an empty Ur-Gholem nearby why wouldn't he try to use that to save the legionnaires life, but if it happened it would have been by happenstance (also, could a dreadnought that is not designed for an Astartes even take an Astartes body in it?).

 

One thing that should not be forgotten, by the way, is that there was a better understanding of the technology during the Great Crusade which could have lead to more interchangeability between dreadnoughts. In one of the BL books a Dark Angels dreadnought is cannibalized to remove the occupant in his sarcophagus to interface and control an Ordinatus macroweapon. If a techmarine under combat conditions could take the sarcophagus out of a dreadnought and link it with an Ordinatus successfully without killing the occupant, moving a sarcophagus from a dreadnought to a different dreadnought must be relatively easy and could account for some of the weird timeline inconsistencies regarding some of the occupants and the shells they are occupying.

 

Edit: Snipped some of the earlier comments for ease of reading

Edited April 15, 2020 by Brother-Captain Gilead

[No Foes Remain]

Wow, so do I have some reading and catching up to do. Thanks everyone! I kinda want to add some dates in but I don't really want this to get any more complicated, if anyone has any suggestions feel free to share them.

 

 

 

This is an awesome idea for a thread, great work guys! Love it!

Be great if we had pics as examples for each section too maybe?

BCC

Do you mean pics of the units from each section or a pic to 'timestamp' each section?

[Elzender]

Question about Rangda and the inconsistent timelines, as I am not up to date with the lore at all: if I recall correctly, there has been multiple campaigns against the Rangda, right? I recall references to the 3rd Rangdan xenocide, implying the existence of two previous campaigns. Are all of them established in the timeline? Because I'm wondering that maybe that XII master of ordnance was wounded in the first Rangda campaign, and that might explain the century between his first and second internment. Edited April 15, 2020 by Elzender

[calgar101]

This is a great thread, a very useful repository of knowledge. I'd love more information on the different types of Stormbirds!

[No Foes Remain]

I was flicking through the the first Black Book and the wargear section of the Legion Red Book and both state that Tartaros was developed late crusade and the Black Book adds in both Saturnine and Indomitus be developed late crusade as well so I have adjusted accordingly.

[StrangerOrders]

I was flicking through the the first Black Book and the wargear section of the Legion Red Book and both state that Tartaros was developed late crusade and the Black Book adds in both Saturnine and Indomitus be developed late crusade as well so I have adjusted accordingly.

Inferno gives some insight as the Space Wolves were the Legion to test the Tartaros out.

 

The date for its trial is 'the final year of the 30th millenium'. So just a wee half-decade before the Heresy kicked off. (999)

 

As for Cataphractii, the date we have from the Ferrus Manus book is that it was issued for testing to the Iron Hands right before the Gardinaal campaign. (869)

 

So the Cataphractii has about 130 years on the Tartaros, which really makes it reasonable that most Legions still have Cataphractii for their specialist unit. Moreso given how much alot of legions disliked changing wargear (look at how much MKII is still around) and the lesser durability.

 

Kinda makes alot of sense that only Fulgrim, Jaghatai, Magnus and Mortarion used it for their elite troops. The first two emphasized skill and mobility enough to justify the trade off and Morty has a well known fetish for terminators. Magnus had a more or less personal forgeworld, relatively few astartes and a fixation on gearing his sons, so he also makes sense in that respect.

 

No clue on the Saturnine though.

Edited April 15, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[battle captain corpus]

Wow, so do I have some reading and catching up to do. Thanks everyone! I kinda want to add some dates in but I don't really want this to get any more complicated, if anyone has any suggestions feel free to share them.

 

 

 

 

This is an awesome idea for a thread, great work guys! Love it!

 

Be great if we had pics as examples for each section too maybe?

 

BCC

Do you mean pics of the units from each section or a pic to 'timestamp' each section?

What ever you think would work best? Make a great repository tool for people starting/adding to the Horus Heresy? :)

 

BCC

[No Foes Remain]

 

I was flicking through the the first Black Book and the wargear section of the Legion Red Book and both state that Tartaros was developed late crusade and the Black Book adds in both Saturnine and Indomitus be developed late crusade as well so I have adjusted accordingly.

Inferno gives some insight as the Space Wolves were the Legion to test the Tartaros out.

 

The date for its trial is 'the final year of the 30th millenium'. So just a wee half-decade before the Heresy kicked off. (999)

 

As for Cataphractii, the date we have from the Ferrus Manus book is that it was issued for testing to the Iron Hands right before the Gardinaal campaign. (869)

 

So the Cataphractii has about 130 years on the Tartaros, which really makes it reasonable that most Legions still have Cataphractii for their specialist unit. Moreso given how much alot of legions disliked changing wargear (look at how much MKII is still around) and the lesser durability.

 

Kinda makes alot of sense that only Fulgrim, Jaghatai, Magnus and Mortarion used it for their elite troops. The first two emphasized skill and mobility enough to justify the trade off and Morty has a well known fetish for terminators. Magnus had a more or less personal forgeworld, relatively few astartes and a fixation on gearing his sons, so he also makes sense in that respect.

 

No clue on the Saturnine though.

 

Ah so Cataphractii would be mid-crusade then, interesting. Thanks for that tibit, I shall adjust.

 

Yeah Saturnine is an odd one. The only refference I found was as previously mentioned that it was a late era development, maybe FW will expand on it in future books?

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, so do I have some reading and catching up to do. Thanks everyone! I kinda want to add some dates in but I don't really want this to get any more complicated, if anyone has any suggestions feel free to share them.

 

 

This is an awesome idea for a thread, great work guys! Love it!

 

Be great if we had pics as examples for each section too maybe?

 

BCC

Do you mean pics of the units from each section or a pic to 'timestamp' each section?

What ever you think would work best? Make a great repository tool for people starting/adding to the Horus Heresy?

 

BCC

 

 

See I wasn't really too sure how to lay this out, especially since I just came up with this on the fly, which is why its kinda boring at the moment but I wouldn't really know how to change it to make it more.... attractive. Well I have some ideas but that involves tables and BB code and I'm not smart enough for that.

Edited April 16, 2020 by No Foes Remain

[battle captain corpus]

I reckon we could make it a community little mini project if needs be. Only if people think it could help obviously :)

 

Anyway...let the list continue brothers!

 

BCC

[calgar101]

I think it would help and be a great community project.

[StrangerOrders]

I did some digging since this is a fun little exercise, here are my offerings.

 

On Bolt Weapons, we get some nice insight in Saturnine. 

 

Mark Two Phobos is commonly believed to be the oldest pattern of all for bolt weapons.

 

There is a pre-Unity Bolt Pistol in the book which a very knowledgeable character assumes is a Phobos.

 

Instead it is identified as a 'M676 Union Model. Pre-Phobos. Mark Zero you might say'.

 

So for Early Crusade you get Mark Two Phobos for sidearms and Pre-Unity you get the so-called M676 Union Model.

 

From Inferno:

 

-The Stygian Sub-Pattern of MKII was in use around 830.

-The Nemes Sub-Pattern of Cataphractii Terminator Armor was in use by Prospero.

-The Atept-se/17 (nicknamed the 'Night Rakers) were Interceptors which dated back to the Unification Wars and were used by the Astartes for the early years of the Crusade.

-Thunderbolts seem to have entered use after the Treaty of Mars and stayed in used throughout the Crusade.

-At least one MKIV suit dated ten years pre-Prospero.

-BIG ONE: The Ur-Gholem was intended for Thunder Warrior use and is specifically described as a combined walker/Life-Support System. With the first of the Moritoi being buried in one such chassis. Interestingly, they seem to regularly upgrade to new chassis. I am unclear if this is the norm or just Custodes bling at work.

 

Will try to cull more data later!

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

I did some digging since this is a fun little exercise, here are my offerings.

 

On Bolt Weapons, we get some nice insight in Saturnine. 

 

Mark Two Phobos is commonly believed to be the oldest pattern of all for bolt weapons.

 

There is a pre-Unity Bolt Pistol in the book which a very knowledgeable character assumes is a Phobos.

 

Instead it is identified as a 'M676 Union Model. Pre-Phobos. Mark Zero you might say'.

 

So for Early Crusade you get Mark Two Phobos for sidearms and Pre-Unity you get the so-called M676 Union Model.

 

From Inferno:

 

-The Stygian Sub-Pattern of MKII was in use around 830.

-The Nemes Sub-Pattern of Cataphractii Terminator Armor was in use by Prospero.

-The Atept-se/17 (nicknamed the 'Night Rakers) were Interceptors which dated back to the Unification Wars and were used by the Astartes for the early years of the Crusade.

-Thunderbolts seem to have entered use after the Treaty of Mars and stayed in used throughout the Crusade.

-At least one MKIV suit dated ten years pre-Prospero.

-BIG ONE: The Ur-Gholem was intended for Thunder Warrior use and is specifically described as a combined walker/Life-Support System. With the first of the Moritoi being buried in one such chassis. Interestingly, they seem to regularly upgrade to new chassis. I am unclear if this is the norm or just Custodes bling at work.

 

Will try to cull more data later!

 

Great findings!

 

On the Mark IV deployment timing, the whole Horus Heresy book saga begins with one Garviel Loken talking about his new Mark IV battleplate that he is using. If we assume that the Warmaster's legion would be one of the first to be assigned the new Mark IV power armor, then it became available to the legions after the triumph at Ullanor but before Horus accepted the change in his legions name to the Sons of Horus. In actuality the logistics of dispersing a new model of power armor to an army fighting across a galaxy makes this a bit hazy however, because it could very well be that the Mark IV had been available for a good decade before Loken's company had been in a position to make such a change in their armament. Still, it gives us one datapoint where Luna Wolves were getting new power armor, but Horus had already been named Warmaster.