Legiones Astartes - Early Crusade Equipment

[lansalt]

We should keep in mind that some Astartes equipment was first made for regular humans and later adapted to them (dreads, rhinos). Just like names like "Rhino" can reference pre unity models, the first Mars mark (the ones from 40k 1st ed.), the Deimos, Aurox and ones by other human civilizations in the galaxy.

 

The split between supposedly very similar Ur-Gholem/Furibundus dreads and M676 Union Model/Phobos bolters, makes me think that the later are Mars production models approved after the Treaty, but basically the same.

A Custodes may change its dread chassis when a new shiny golden model becomes avaliable, but I think every mention of astartes doing it's usually linked to extreme cir:cussances, like being damaged beyond repair,  whatever happened to the "dreaded and unhallowed" Lucifer, or the named Alpha Legion contemptor in HH3 Extermination (Archontas Origo). After all, the Raven Guard captain wounded in Jupiter keep his Furibundus until it was destroyed at Gate 42!
 

[No Foes Remain]

I reckon we could make it a community little mini project if needs be. Only if people think it could help obviously

 

Anyway...let the list continue brothers!

 

BCC

 

This is kind of a a joint project anyway, with people contributing information!

 

 

I did some digging since this is a fun little exercise, here are my offerings.

 

On Bolt Weapons, we get some nice insight in Saturnine. 

 

Mark Two Phobos is commonly believed to be the oldest pattern of all for bolt weapons.

 

There is a pre-Unity Bolt Pistol in the book which a very knowledgeable character assumes is a Phobos.

 

Instead it is identified as a 'M676 Union Model. Pre-Phobos. Mark Zero you might say'.

 

So for Early Crusade you get Mark Two Phobos for sidearms and Pre-Unity you get the so-called M676 Union Model.

 

From Inferno:

 

-The Stygian Sub-Pattern of MKII was in use around 830.

-The Nemes Sub-Pattern of Cataphractii Terminator Armor was in use by Prospero.

-The Atept-se/17 (nicknamed the 'Night Rakers) were Interceptors which dated back to the Unification Wars and were used by the Astartes for the early years of the Crusade.

-Thunderbolts seem to have entered use after the Treaty of Mars and stayed in used throughout the Crusade.

-At least one MKIV suit dated ten years pre-Prospero.

-BIG ONE: The Ur-Gholem was intended for Thunder Warrior use and is specifically described as a combined walker/Life-Support System. With the first of the Moritoi being buried in one such chassis. Interestingly, they seem to regularly upgrade to new chassis. I am unclear if this is the norm or just Custodes bling at work.

 

Will try to cull more data later!

Lovely, added and updated the first post.

 

MkIV seems to be an odd ball, I'm tempted to ignore the first few HH books from Black Library and focus on the later books and the FW books for the sake of continuity. So as Gilead suggested, it could be that the more 'favoured' legiones such as the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus got MkIV first, I could see other Legions like the Emperor's Children and the Ultramarines (the Five Hundred worlds must have a lot of Forges that supply the Legion) getting a supply of some as well. Thats not taking into account the various sub-patterns which only the helmets remain on FWs site.

[battle captain corpus]

@brother-captain-gilead: I think a decade is a fair assumption yeah. The logistics don’t even bare thinking about! Probably that’s why most Legions ended up with full on hotch-potch looks towards the end!

 

BCC

Edited April 17, 2020 by battle captain corpus

[MegaVolt87]

Someone should add in where legion issue plasma infantry weapons fit in. I never worked that one out, especially now with the new 30k DA custom plasma weaponry. I would say flames and melta are really old technology IMO.

[lansalt]

The pattern names seem to be a good clue of when something was issued. Anything with Solar/Mars/Proteus probably came before than Ryza/Voss/Tigris...etc.

Since most plasma weapons seem to originate from Ryza, maybe they were unavaliable before the crusade reached that forgeworld. Even the Mars-Alpha Leman Russ Executioner (said to be the original pattern) uses a Ryza pattern plasma cannon.

 

It also provides a nice extra explanation of why eventually plasma took the place of volkite guns, once they found a cheaper and more reliable source of high energy weapons.

In 2nd-3rd ed. 40k, chaos marines and dreadnoughts were said to use "Mk1" plasma guns aesthetically similar to 8th Death Guard minis, and also to the Ryza LR executioner. But those are nowhere to be seen in HH media.



 

 

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

The pattern names seem to be a good clue of when something was issued. Anything with Solar/Mars/Proteus probably came before than Ryza/Voss/Tigris...etc.

 

Since most plasma weapons seem to originate from Ryza, maybe they were unavaliable before the crusade reached that forgeworld. Even the Mars-Alpha Leman Russ Executioner (said to be the original pattern) uses a Ryza pattern plasma cannon.

 

Going to disagree a bit here based on two datapoints:

1. The standard Mars pattern warhound titan is equipped with a plasma blastgun and a vulcan heavy bolter, indicating that the forges of Mars had the ability to provide plasma weaponry for their titans (see also the fact that they had Imperator titans for their Titan Legions which have set weaponry which includes a Plasma Annihilator)
2. The Dark Angels are the legion with a monopoly among the Astartes on what equipment was laying around Terra from the Dark Age of Technology and in game it is represented by them being the only Legion that has access to stasis weaponry and all of these weird versions of plasma weaponry

I guess it is conceivable that Terra had plasma weaponry laying around and once the Great Crusade started they just did not give them over to the tech-priests of Mars for study and replication, but I find it really hard to believe that Terra would possess plasma weaponry while it is being raided by the tech-priests of Mars during the Age of Strife and not one of the tech-priests looted one of them to figure out how to build more of them. The tech-priests of Ryza are the masters of plasma weaponry so undoubtedly once that Forge world was brought into the Imperium the quality of plasma weaponry that the Imperium had access to increased tremendously, but plasma weaponry had been around prior to that.

 

For those of you who don't know what I am referring to regarding the First and their monopoly on equipment: supposedly after the Emperor was done with conquering Terra with his thunder warriors and the first of the Legio Astartes, he confiscated all of the stuff from the Dark Age of Technology that was just laying around Terra (coincidentally this archeotech laying around was also one of the main reasons for the tech-priests to raid Terra during the Age of Strife, but I digress). After that he gave some of that stuff over to the 1st Legion while some of it he gave to the Custodes (which is why they have those Adrathic disruptors) and some of it he probably placed under lock and key because it was too dangerous. What the 1st Legion got included a version of the Fellglaive superheavy that had a warp-based cannon instead of a volkite one, grav-land raiders etc. In game this is represented by the stasis missiles and grenades (some of which survided to the 41st millenium), molecular acid heavy bolter shells (although these could also be a souvenir from the Rangdan xenocides) and all of the weird plasma-based weaponry. In the Horus Heresy books we also have mentions of terminators wielding phosphex cannons although I guess most legions had phosphex so maybe that isn't actually unique.

[lansalt]

You are right, also I just remembered the shoulder mounted Sol Militaris "Helion Fire" Pattern Plasma Cannon, of HH2 Massacre seen here: https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0499/44/1477412746869.jpg and still sold by FW.

 

So at least we know there was a terran plasma cannon at the beginning of the crusade, and later regular plasma guns and pistols after Ryza.

But we don't know for sure if there were non heavy guns. It's just speculation, but maybe the early terran plasma guns were the ones called "Mk1" that we've seen in old chaos minis and 8th ed. Death Guard.

Edited April 18, 2020 by lansalt

[Darkwrath121]

Going to disagree a bit here based on two datapoints:

• The Dark Angels are the legion with a monopoly among the Astartes on what equipment was laying around Terra from the Dark Age of Technology and in game it is represented by them being the only Legion that has access to stasis weaponry and all of these weird versions of plasma weaponry

I guess it is conceivable that Terra had plasma weaponry laying around and once the Great Crusade started they just did not give them over to the tech-priests of Mars for study and replication, but I find it really hard to believe that Terra would possess plasma weaponry while it is being raided by the tech-priests of Mars during the Age of Strife and not one of the tech-priests looted one of them to figure out how to build more of them. The tech-priests of Ryza are the masters of plasma weaponry so undoubtedly once that Forge world was brought into the Imperium the quality of plasma weaponry that the Imperium had access to increased tremendously, but plasma weaponry had been around prior to that.

The Dark Angels are specifically mentioned as being designed to operate with very minimal Mechanicum presence, reliance, and oversight. Recieving their gear (where possible) from Terra itself.

 

For that reason, it seems extremely likely that all the esoteric plasma weaponry they possess originated from Terra and survived the scavaging of Mars. Especially as the Terrawatt clans maintained a significant technological base and survived the Age of Strife mostly intact, later providing their expertise to the Dark Angels.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Darkwrath121

[Darkwrath121]

(Ignore) Edited April 19, 2020 by Darkwrath121

[Dantay VI]

With regards to Contemptor dreadnaughts.

 

The Thousand Sons had a very specific Contemptor varant that only they used, The Osiron.

 

It was designed for interred legion psykers so they could still use their talents, even as a dread.

 

Thik of it as a pre-cursor to the Libby-Dread used by 40K Blood Angels.

 

Inferno should have a picture plate of an Osiron, which in turn should give you a name for it.

[No Foes Remain]

Yeah I didn't really know what to do with the Plasma or Melta weaponry, the plasma guns that are in the plastic kits are the Ryza pattern which I have been unable to find out when that Forge world was brought back into the fold.

 

@Dantay: I will check Inferno and see what information it holds.

 

 

However, I was flicking through the first three FW Black Books while nursing a headache and found some helpful images on Page 19 of Book 1, 17 of Book 2 and 44 of Book 3 which shows an image of a Legionnaire and wargear as Early Crusade (book 1), Later Heavy Support (book 2) and Late Seeker (book 3). Now in order they are in Mk2, Mk4 and Mk6 pattern power armour.

 

Interestingly Book 1 lables the Tigris pattern Boltgun as early along with the Ikanos bolt pistol (which looks the Tigris bolt pistol) and includes a Melta Bomb labled 'Lucifer MkXIX thermic charge.

 

Book 2 shows the aformentioned Mk4 armour as well as 'Panoply of Armaments Terran Manufactured - Legion portable Support Weaponry Segmentum Solar Supply', showing images of the shoulder mounted 'Sol Militaris Pattern Multi-melta, Sol Militaris Pattern Heavy Bolter, Sol Militaris Pattern Lascannon and Sol Militaris 'Helion Fire' Pattern Portable Plasma Cannon'. This indicates that somewhere in the Sol System they were able to make such weapons however doesn't say whether they were avaliable from the start or were just in use by 'Later Crusade' Heavy support.

 

Book 3 lables the Mk6 as 'Prototype Legiones Astartes Power Armour' with a numerical ident number and that its undergoing field trials with the Raven Guard. Also in the picture is the Seeker Variant of the Tigris Boltgun as well as the Plasma, Melta and Flamer variants of it. Also shown is the Tigris Pattern Bolt Pistol and the Ryza 'Sunspite' Pattern Plasma Pistol.

 

 

Not that this really helps much but I shall add in what I can where I can and have a flick through the pretty Legion pictures and see if they give any more information.

Edited April 19, 2020 by No Foes Remain

[MegaVolt87]

Well the plasma cannon being invented before the man portable plasma gun is plausible, if we compare it to how the assault cannon evolved.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

Well the plasma cannon being invented before the man portable plasma gun is plausible, if we compare it to how the assault cannon evolved.

 

Yup, technology usually starts big and gets miniaturized as time goes on and engineers figure out where they can cut extra stuff out (see: computers). I can see a chain where the Martian tech-priests built plasma blastguns for their titans and then started miniaturizing it after they stole some Terran-built copies of plasma weaponry and figured out how to make the coils that generate the containment field stronger etc. Which would then lead to the original Mk 1 Mars pattern plasma weaponry that ties into the older fluff from the 2nd and 3rd edition (also 2nd edition crunch) where the earlier plasma weaponry was more volatile while the later Ryza pattern modern versions were safer by comparison.

[No Foes Remain]

Seems like a solid solution, though with the 1^st having access to other rarer plasma weaponry I'll just lable it as such.