Lore question - Lifespans and timelines

[Berzul]

Hey guys.

 

Quick lore questions here. I've read a lot of things around the internet to get an idea, but nothing decisive. Maybe someone here can share their thoughts? I have looked for info on this for the lore of my own successor chapter, which I am writing about.

 

1) As I understand it, Astartes have in fact a fixed life span. That is, they die of old age, only, they live some centuries over a regular human. I have found comments and posts on the internet describing this as a lifespan that goes for around 300 years, and other comments and posts that describe this as a lifespan that goes for about 500 years. With rare cases of some astartes living over a thousand years (like Dante).

 

What would be the normal age limit for an astartes, and from what point forward would they be considered "old", before dying of old age?

 

2) So far I have understood it that an aspiring astartes is recruited around the age of 10, trains for a year or two before becoming a neophyte, and from then on training to become a battle brother and ascend to a company beyond the 10th takes around 6 to 8 more years.  Meaning a child is brought in at around 10, is a neophyte from around 12 to around 18-20, and then becomes a battle brother.

 

Is this about accurate?

 

3) Since warp distortions make time keeping in the Imperium difficult, after the end of the Indomitus Crusade on 111.M42, but the Psychic Awakening events have taken place well past that crusade, then:

 

What date can one assume the "present day" of the Imperium is, in the current state of the lore?

[Gederas]

1) As I understand it, Astartes have in fact a fixed life span. That is, they die of old age, only, they live some centuries over a regular human. I have found comments and posts on the internet describing this as a lifespan that goes for around 300 years, and other comments and posts that describe this as a lifespan that goes for about 500 years. With rare cases of some astartes living over a thousand years (like Dante).

 

What would be the normal age limit for an astartes, and from what point forward would they be considered "old", before dying of old age?

No, they don't. The "lifespan" is because Astartes often die in battle before reaching the ages of Dante or Ulrik the Slayer (remember, Ulrik is the Wolf Priest who chose Logan Grimnar... Who's been Great Wolf for 700 years before the 100 year-time-skip, and it's not stated Logan was young for a Wolf Lord/Great Wolf, so he's probably around 900 to 1000 by the time of the 42n Millennium. Which means Ulrik is way, way older than Dante)

 

We have a canon example of a Marine who's been alive since the Heresy in Nick Kyme's Salamander's novels, however:

He was trapped in a Salamanders vessel from Isstvan and was stuck to the command throne. The protagonists found him but had to give him the Emperor's Peace because his body was so atrophied from disuse and NOT because he was too old. His body was atrophied (and mildly insane from being alone), strapped to a throne for 10,000 years, but was still very much alive.

 

And, iirc, the Heresy books make it clear that Astartes are biologically immortal, they just die quickly. Their physical features age (greying hair, wrinkles), but their capabilities do not. Or they degrade so slowly that they might as well not happen, unless the Marine in question is really, really, REALLY old.

 

For example: Sigismund when he was killed by Abaddon was noted as having "gotten slower in his old age"... Which meant he was now roughly even match for Abaddon and didn't immediately annihilate the (at that point) would-be Warmaster of Chaos... :lol: And that duel between the two happened in 781.M31, which was 500 years after the Siege of Terra, and Sigismund was a Terran Legionnaire. Which means that this point Sigismund was around 800 to 900 years old, give or take.

 

So no, there is no "age limit" for an Astartes.

 

2) So far I have understood it that an aspiring astartes is recruited around the age of 10, trains for a year or two before becoming a neophyte, and from then on training to become a battle brother and ascend to a company beyond the 10th takes around 6 to 8 more years.  Meaning a child is brought in at around 10, is a neophyte from around 12 to around 18-20, and then becomes a battle brother.

 

Is this about accurate?

This all depends on the chapter and the lore you're reading. The Space Wolves novels imply Ragnar was a mid-teen when he was chosen as he got busy with a woman of his tribe before the battle that wiped everyone out. Because I seriously doubt William King would write a scene where a 10 year old gets laid, even if he's from a "totally not Vikings" culture

 

But the current stance about gene-seed implantation is it' BEST done before/during puberty. Then again, it's also stated that the gene-seed implantation can work as far as early 20s (or roughly around that), so....

Edited April 14, 2020 by Gederas

[Panzer]

1) At least during the heresy it's said Marines wouldn't ever die of old age. Whether it's the case 10k years later is unknown. Dante currently is the oldest Marine alive at roughly 1600 years though. One rarely sees his face but at the end of Devastation of Baal it got said that he looked really old for Marine standards. Note that he still 1v1ed a Swarmlord even at his old age though. He's not Chapter Master for nothing.

 

2) It depends but generally they get recruited when they are young and still malleable. However at least with the process Primaris get created it's possible to turn adults into Marines as well now.

 

3) Unknown on purpose. The whole reason that time works differently for different places in the galaxy now is so that GW has more freedom to place narratives when and where they want to. There is not this one present day anymore.

[Brother Tyler]

The books make it clear that the Adeptus Astartes are mortal.

 

The statements about immortality date from the time of the Great Crusade, which lasted around 200 years. The natural lifespan of the Adeptus Astartes is longer than 200 years, but no one at that time knew what it might be since the Adeptus Astartes hadn't been around long enough to reach whatever their lifespan might be. Sigismund is the perfect example that even the Adeptus Astartes of the Great Crusade era age and are mortal. Sigismund endured for over a millennia, his thirst for vengeance upon the traitors providing sufficient motivation to stay alive until he finally had his chance against Abaddon. He was not simply a thousand years old when he finally faced Abaddon - he had aged physically and was past his prime. Whether or not Sigismund's age was indicative of the norm for what an Adeptus Astartes of that time was capable of or if it was exceptional is unknown. Regardless, Sigismund is absolute proof of the mortality of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

A theory, which I subscribe to, is that the regression in technological and medical understanding that the Adeptus Astartes have fallen into mean that the Adeptus Astartes of the modern era (not including the Primaris Astartes, which are another kettle of fish), might be slightly inferior to their Great Crusade era counterparts. The specifics of what that might mean in terms of lifespan are unknown.

 

The examples of Adeptus Astartes that remain alive since the time of the Great Crusade all fall into one of three categories. The first are those whose "longevity" is due to extensive time in the Warp, in which time does not flow in recognizable ways. The Heretic Astartes fall into this category, but there have been other examples of Adeptus Astartes who have been lost in the Warp for some time and miraculously appeared later, with little or no time having passed in realspace (and sometimes they've appeared in the past). The second category are those that have been in Sus-an Membrane-induced hibernation. The third category are those that have been interred within a dreadnought sarcophagus and whose longevity isn't natural, instead being the result of rejuvenation and technology, not to mention suspended animation when they are not activated for use.

 

There are examples of extremely long-lived Adeptus Astartes, with Dante being a prime example. The Blood Angels (and their kin) are known for being exceptionally long-lived in relation to the other Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. One can't live longer than others unless the others are mortal. Nor can you be considered relatively long-lived if you are functionally immortal.

 

Yes, the vast majority of Adeptus Astartes don't reach whatever their natural lifespan might be because they have a very hazardous lifestyle - they live only for war. Most die in action. Some lucky (?) few don't die in action, instead being crippled to the point where they can no longer fight. These eventually die. I don't recall ever being definitively told what the average natural lifespan for the Adeptus Astartes is. We can infer several centuries at least, but Sigismund's example of a millennium is likely to be extreme, with modern day Adeptus Astartes likely having the potential to live some amount lower than that (not counting those exception I cited above and those whose gene-seed confers the potential for a longer natural life).

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

Adding to what brother Tyler said: I am 99 % sure I have read a snippet of lore somewhere where it is mentioned that the geneseed of the Blood Angels is biased towards longer lifespans than the geneseed of the other chapters / legions (IIRC this was mentioned in a source depicting the current state of affairs in the 41st millenium, so the comparison was likely restricted only to the loyal legions). This would mean that not only is there a definite lifespan for an Astartes, there is also a difference depending on the subject and the geneseed that has been implanted, which of course would not have been known to the first few generations of Astartes back in the Great Crusade / Horus Heresy -era, but would be discovered during the 10 millenia since the Emperor was interred in the Golden Throne.

 

What this longer lifespan means in practice was not defined in that source, but I would assume based on the other examples given of old Astartes being a bit less superhuman, that it means that Space Marines carrying the geneseed of Sanguinius maintain their edge longer than, say, Space Marines implanted with the geneseed of Russ.

[Berzul]

Thanks for all this information. It is quite useful.

 

Just as an imagined scenario, then. It so happens that I am writing short bios for both a captain and a sergeant, in the same battle company (of a chapter from a late M37 founding). Would an age of a few decades over 200 years for a captain, and a few years under 60 for a sergeant, be long/short enough to make sense in the sense of the lore? As in, would it be enough for each case, respectively, to measure up to the lifespan one would expect of astartes experienced enough in combat, to have reached those positions of authority inside the chapter?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, those ages sound fine.

 

Let's also remember that all the claims of Astartes being immortal come from the Crusade/Heresy era, when Astartes had only existed for 300 years or so, well within the average lifespan. 

 

EDIT: As for the "current" time, while there used to be a time-check system used that would show all dates with a note on how accurate they were, the issue seems to be that when the Cicatrix Maledictum came into being, time went absolutely screwy across the galaxy, with some regions having it occur almost instantaneously, and others suffering for years, decades, or longer. Just have a look at the Blood Angels when fighting against the Tyranids. It all started before the Rift, then Warp Stuff happens, and Guilliman is suddenly in orbit above them with Primaris reinforcements.

 

Sure, the Imperium could theoretically go back to using Terran time, but so, so many of the worlds would be using the check for "we're basically just guessing" that it would essentially be useless, not to mention the fact that you'd have to deal with the confusion on many worlds of "ok guys, bureaucratically the last 237 years didn't occur". It'd be the equivalent of our world deciding that it's actually 1490, not 2020. 

 

After all, Terra says the Noctis Aeterna lasted 33 days, on others like Baal it seems to have contracted time, and on others it lasted longer. It's not really something you can reconcile without breaking something somewhere.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Disruptor_fe404]

Vigilus Defiant does state that the opening of the Cicatrix Maledictum (as experienced by the system it is being observed from) is the new 'zero' for Imperial timing. So every system basically counts the days (well, technically they count 'chronosegments', which are 8-hour blocks) since the opening of the CM as their date count.

[Doghouse]

If you are talking in terms of service then yes it could be made to make sense. If I read what you are saying as correct you are going for an older experienced sergeant of nearly 60 years service and a younger captain of just a few decades?

 

If that is the case then yes that is plausible. There have always been all sorts of stories of people turning down promotions to serve in their current rank, even in 40k. Then you have the fact of the Astartes taking a good kicking during the advent of the Cicatrix Maledictum so ranked officers may be in high demand regardless of experience.

 

You also have a number of time reasons that can be applied such as time being in it's fractured state or even the old warp travel.

 

As it can be interpreted in a number of ways depending on the author I'd play it safe and base the life span of an Astartes at 300 because like people say this is where they tend to get killed in battle.

 

Thing is it's hard to pin down any real sense of canon on the finer details of 40k because GW preach we're in an age of thought with the game where it's down to individual interpretation.

[Oxydo]

There have always been all sorts of stories of people turning down promotions to serve in their current rank, even in 40k. 

 

I want add to this that age/seniority doesn't equal skill and competence for the work a higher ranking marine does. An amazing sergent might very well be a terrible lieutenant or captain, and from what I remember at least some chapters identify command/chaplain/apothecary/techmarine material early and then groom them for those positions.

 

For example, Sergent Telion has personally trained at least four UM captains back when they were neophytes.

[Volt]

No space marine we know of has actually died of old age, and we know they are seemingly biological immortal due to that one Sally- they just degrade over time as they succumb to the effects of aging and atrophy. A Space Marine will always die in battle due to the nature of their career, as there is no such thing as an ex-marine. Plus there's others like the Fallen who aren't typically immersed in the Warp but are doing just fine, or Cypher

who actually traveled back in time and if Cypher is the same he could be 20,000 years old or some crazy stuff thanks to wormhole antics from the caliban trilogy

[Berzul]

If you are talking in terms of service then yes it could be made to make sense. If I read what you are saying as correct you are going for an older experienced sergeant of nearly 60 years service and a younger captain of just a few decades?

 

If that is the case then yes that is plausible. There have always been all sorts of stories of people turning down promotions to serve in their current rank, even in 40k. Then you have the fact of the Astartes taking a good kicking during the advent of the Cicatrix Maledictum so ranked officers may be in high demand regardless of experience.

 

You also have a number of time reasons that can be applied such as time being in it's fractured state or even the old warp travel.

 

As it can be interpreted in a number of ways depending on the author I'd play it safe and base the life span of an Astartes at 300 because like people say this is where they tend to get killed in battle.

 

Thing is it's hard to pin down any real sense of canon on the finer details of 40k because GW preach we're in an age of thought with the game where it's down to individual interpretation.

 

 

What I meant is, having a captain at an age of around 250, having spent some decades or over a century in said position, anda  sergeant of an age of around 60, having spent some good 40ish years of service.

[Doghouse]

Yeah that would work fine. That would make for a seasoned Captain and probably an average age sergeant.

[CCE1981]

I think for the time you have in the position they are incredibly young. A 60-ish year old Space Marine Sergeant with 40 years as a Sergeant would have become a Sergeant at 20, basically a couple years after becoming a Battle Brother in his first reserve Company. He would need at Least a couple of decades first. Remember generally AFTER becoming a Scout, they are in the Devastator Company, then Assault Company, then Reserve Company, then Battle Company. He might make Sergeant in one of the Reserve Companies, usually a Battle Company. I would think that making Sergeant by 80 would be uncommon, earlier than that rare but possible.

 

A Captain spending a century in the position currently at 250 years old would be possible, he’d have to be exceptional either in prowess or circumstance to be so young but I think thst would be possible.

[Gederas]

I think for the time you have in the position they are incredibly young. A 60-ish year old Space Marine Sergeant with 40 years as a Sergeant would have become a Sergeant at 20, basically a couple years after becoming a Battle Brother in his first reserve Company. He would need at Least a couple of decades first. Remember generally AFTER becoming a Scout, they are in the Devastator Company, then Assault Company, then Reserve Company, then Battle Company. He might make Sergeant in one of the Reserve Companies, usually a Battle Company. I would think that making Sergeant by 80 would be uncommon, earlier than that rare but possible.

 

A Captain spending a century in the position currently at 250 years old would be possible, he’d have to be exceptional either in prowess or circumstance to be so young but I think thst would be possible.

Yeah, Rangnar Blackmane is called the "Young King" because he became Wolf Lord at an EXCEPTIONALLY young age. It doesn't give an exact date, but he became a Wolf Guard directly from being a Blood Claw (basically, he went from a Scout to STERNGUARD VETERAN in his Chapter's terms), then became Wolf Lord shortly after that.

 

So Ragnar was probably under 170 when he became Wolf Lord.

 

As CCE1981 says, the 250 year old captain is quite young for a Captain. So there would NEED to be a reason to explain it.

[War Angel]

Everyone is on different time dates because they can’t accurately track it. Here on earth we all use the same sun to keep time. For people on mars to have the same date and time as us they would need to use a computer to track it. But if they went through the warp to get there, then time lost all meaning and they could have traveled for 13 days bit ten years passed in real space. Mars is close by so you could use a radio to get the message to them, but fenris is a lot further and the message would have the same issues. So earth, and most likely the sol system, are the only places where time is accurate, and everywhere else is guessing. Even the ultramarines.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s also a time anomaly now in the current time line.

[Sky Potato]

I think for the time you have in the position they are incredibly young. A 60-ish year old Space Marine Sergeant with 40 years as a Sergeant (snip)

I read that as a Sergeant at 60, with 40 years of service as an Astartes.

[CCE1981]

 

I think for the time you have in the position they are incredibly young. A 60-ish year old Space Marine Sergeant with 40 years as a Sergeant (snip)

I read that as a Sergeant at 60, with 40 years of service as an Astartes.

 

 

Later he qualified with this:

 

 

If you are talking in terms of service then yes it could be made to make sense. If I read what you are saying as correct you are going for an older experienced sergeant of nearly 60 years service and a younger captain of just a few decades?

 

If that is the case then yes that is plausible. There have always been all sorts of stories of people turning down promotions to serve in their current rank, even in 40k. Then you have the fact of the Astartes taking a good kicking during the advent of the Cicatrix Maledictum so ranked officers may be in high demand regardless of experience.

 

You also have a number of time reasons that can be applied such as time being in it's fractured state or even the old warp travel.

 

As it can be interpreted in a number of ways depending on the author I'd play it safe and base the life span of an Astartes at 300 because like people say this is where they tend to get killed in battle.

 

Thing is it's hard to pin down any real sense of canon on the finer details of 40k because GW preach we're in an age of thought with the game where it's down to individual interpretation.

 

 

What I meant is, having a captain at an age of around 250, having spent some decades or over a century in said position, anda  sergeant of an age of around 60, having spent some good 40ish years of service.

 

[Berzul]

I think for the time you have in the position they are incredibly young. A 60-ish year old Space Marine Sergeant with 40 years as a Sergeant would have become a Sergeant at 20, basically a couple years after becoming a Battle Brother in his first reserve Company. He would need at Least a couple of decades first. Remember generally AFTER becoming a Scout, they are in the Devastator Company, then Assault Company, then Reserve Company, then Battle Company. He might make Sergeant in one of the Reserve Companies, usually a Battle Company. I would think that making Sergeant by 80 would be uncommon, earlier than that rare but possible.

 

A Captain spending a century in the position currently at 250 years old would be possible, he’d have to be exceptional either in prowess or circumstance to be so young but I think thst would be possible.

 

For the sergeant, I am writing him as an extremely talented warrior, groomed for command down the line. Taken in as an aspirant at age 9, becoming a battle brother at age 17, and then becoming a member of a battle company at 29, then becoming sergeant at 59. Currently, he would be 60. This guy is the one writing liberty I am taking in writing down a "prodigious" hero.

 

For the captain, I simply decided on an age of 257, and started working it backwards from there.

 

I might bump up the numbers, then. I am not bound to this time frames, at all. After all, that was the purpose of this thread. To verify what I was doing right, and what I was doing wrong, so I am very thankful for this clarification.

 

If my time frames are too short, then I will extend them. Maybe make my captain 357 years old, and my sergeant around 80-90? That could work, right?

 

 

 

I think for the time you have in the position they are incredibly young. A 60-ish year old Space Marine Sergeant with 40 years as a Sergeant would have become a Sergeant at 20, basically a couple years after becoming a Battle Brother in his first reserve Company. He would need at Least a couple of decades first. Remember generally AFTER becoming a Scout, they are in the Devastator Company, then Assault Company, then Reserve Company, then Battle Company. He might make Sergeant in one of the Reserve Companies, usually a Battle Company. I would think that making Sergeant by 80 would be uncommon, earlier than that rare but possible.

 

A Captain spending a century in the position currently at 250 years old would be possible, he’d have to be exceptional either in prowess or circumstance to be so young but I think thst would be possible.

Yeah, Rangnar Blackmane is called the "Young King" because he became Wolf Lord at an EXCEPTIONALLY young age. It doesn't give an exact date, but he became a Wolf Guard directly from being a Blood Claw (basically, he went from a Scout to STERNGUARD VETERAN in his Chapter's terms), then became Wolf Lord shortly after that.

 

So Ragnar was probably under 170 when he became Wolf Lord.

 

As CCE1981 says, the 250 year old captain is quite young for a Captain. So there would NEED to be a reason to explain it.

 

 

Well, he is my army's acting commander on the tabletop, so I of course envision him as being incredibly awesome. But, I'd rather just bump up his age, than his skill. I'd much rather have a skilled warrior with experience, in a story, than to have a prodigy-type character that makes little sense (I took the liberty of doing a bit of this with the sergeant, but I might even take that out of my writing in the end).

 

 

Everyone is on different time dates because they can’t accurately track it. Here on earth we all use the same sun to keep time. For people on mars to have the same date and time as us they would need to use a computer to track it. But if they went through the warp to get there, then time lost all meaning and they could have traveled for 13 days bit ten years passed in real space. Mars is close by so you could use a radio to get the message to them, but fenris is a lot further and the message would have the same issues. So earth, and most likely the sol system, are the only places where time is accurate, and everywhere else is guessing. Even the ultramarines.

 

Yeah, most I've seen is "After 111.m42, time is just.... whatever."

 

 

 

I think for the time you have in the position they are incredibly young. A 60-ish year old Space Marine Sergeant with 40 years as a Sergeant (snip)

I read that as a Sergeant at 60, with 40 years of service as an Astartes.

 

Yeah, that was my idea. The battle brother would have become an aspirant before the age of 10, a battle brother before the age of 18, then would have been assigned to a battle company before the age of 30, and would have made sergeant after about 30 years of service in the company.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

We should avoid getting too hung up on time served as a criteria for advancement in my opinion. In the Unforgiven trilogy we have a marine who has served for over 400 years and is a known marksman, but he is still nothing more but a mere battle brother in a tactical squad of a battle company and nobody around him or in his squad comments about it or considers it weird. Of course we are talking about the Dark Angels so some foolery might be abound because of their secret, but all in all he is a battle brother, stays a battle brother and seems to be fully content to be a battle brother until the story takes him first into the Deathwing and then from Deathwing into the chassis of a dreadnought.

 

What was interesting about this journey and what was commented on in the book was the fact that this individual marine made more progress in about a year than he had made in the previous 400 centuries from an outsider's perspective, but from his perspective he hadn't changed all that much and he was at time weirded out (as much as a space marine can be weirded out) by how differently his battle brothers suddenly treated him when he was in a dreadnought, asking for his counsel and listening intently even when just a few months ago he wasn't even present at planning meetings.

 

This highlights an interesting (at least to me, serving as I do in the corporate world) part of the space marine hierarchy that seems to have been there even from the very beginning when they acted as legions as represented by Saul Tarvitz of the Emperor's Children who was content to stay a line officer and whose superiors noted that he was never going to be more than a line officer and nobody acted like it was a personal failing of Saul to be like that. It seems that rather than a meritocracy filled with ambitious individuals seeking to obtain status and rank, a space marine acts personally and acts towards other space marines as a representation of his and their rank rather than the corporate ladder ideology of "if you want to become the boss, act like the boss". There are of course exceptions to this rule, Lucius of the Emperor's Children was very much an ambitious individual, seeking personal advancement, but especially in the loyalists this seems to hold true more often than not.

 

If we go by this logic, it would explain why an individual who was just a battle brother a month ago is suddenly treated with more respect as he is interred in a dreadnought, for his status now as an honored ancestor and as a representative of all other honored ancestors before him causes him to both act and to be treated differently. Thus if the circumstances appeared where a relatively young individual was the most suitable person to be elevated to the rank of sergeant, I doubt his superiors would give it a second thought and just promote him on the spot, trusting that the rank and position will bring with it whatever is necessary. We also can't forget that experience for us limited individuals is very different than it is for space marines. Among us, very few people actually have even years of experience of constant combat, let alone decades, whereas a space marine who has been active for 60 years since his induction has potentially been actively killing and avoiding death for several decades of that time. You will hit diminishing returns eventually, and I doubt a space marine who has experienced 60 years of constant warfare is double as good in the general skills required of being a space marine compared to a space marine who has experienced 30 years of constant warfare. The older space marine might have seen some enemies that the younger one hasn't and has potentially fought on battlefields that the younger one hasn't fought on giving him an edge, but when it comes generic skills such as loading your bolter rapidly and shooting it accurately I find it very difficult to believe that the older space marine would get a giant benefit from his longer time in the Emperor's service.

[Closet Skeleton]

Adding to what brother Tyler said: I am 99 % sure I have read a snippet of lore somewhere where it is mentioned that the geneseed of the Blood Angels is biased towards longer lifespans than the geneseed of the other chapters / legions (IIRC this was mentioned in a source depicting the current state of affairs in the 41st millenium, so the comparison was likely restricted only to the loyal legions).

 

Its mentioned in most Blood Angels codexes from what I remember. Its pretty clear proof that Astartes aren't immortal and some people read too much heresy novels and not enough codexes.

[Volt]

 

Adding to what brother Tyler said: I am 99 % sure I have read a snippet of lore somewhere where it is mentioned that the geneseed of the Blood Angels is biased towards longer lifespans than the geneseed of the other chapters / legions (IIRC this was mentioned in a source depicting the current state of affairs in the 41st millenium, so the comparison was likely restricted only to the loyal legions).

 

Its mentioned in most Blood Angels codexes from what I remember. Its pretty clear proof that Astartes aren't immortal and some people read too much heresy novels and not enough codexes.

 

Except there is no known marine who has ever died of old age. So it's impossible to know if they are mortal if there are no marines who actually retire, as their combat lifespans are measured in a millennium or greater.

[apologist]

I wrote a couple of long articles on this, in which I tried to square the circle on the Chapter size limit of 1,000 against the reported ages of marines. If you'd like to read the reasoning behind my conclusions, they're on +Death of a Rubricist+ here: Part I and Part II.

 

My conclusions were:

 

 

• There are between twenty and fifty Neophytes between ten and fourteen years old, who are not part of the 1,000 marine limit
• The Scouts of the Tenth company are between twelve and twenty-one years old
• A Battle Brother in a Reserve Company will be between eighteen and fifty-five years old
• A Battle Brother in a Battle Company will be between thirty-four and eighty-one years old, with members exceptionally reaching one-hundred-and-fifty years or more
• A Veteran of the First Company will be between sisty-five and two-hundred-and-thirty-five years old, with members exceptionally reaching three-hundred years old
• An Officer will be between thirty-five and three-hundred years old.

[Leif Bearclaw]

The books make it clear that the Adeptus Astartes are mortal.

 

The statements about immortality date from the time of the Great Crusade, which lasted around 200 years. The natural lifespan of the Adeptus Astartes is longer than 200 years, but no one at that time knew what it might be since the Adeptus Astartes hadn't been around long enough to reach whatever their lifespan might be. Sigismund is the perfect example that even the Adeptus Astartes of the Great Crusade era age and are mortal. Sigismund endured for over a millennia, his thirst for vengeance upon the traitors providing sufficient motivation to stay alive until he finally had his chance against Abaddon. He was not simply a thousand years old when he finally faced Abaddon - he had aged physically and was past his prime. Whether or not Sigismund's age was indicative of the norm for what an Adeptus Astartes of that time was capable of or if it was exceptional is unknown. Regardless, Sigismund is absolute proof of the mortality of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

 

I don't think that's necessarily the best example (but then imo the entire fate of Sigismund is an abomination that should never have been added to the fluff, so obviously ymmv). It always struck me as coming from a 'I've decided to feed Siggy to Abby to big up Abby, how can I pull this off without too much backlash?' place rather than 'does this make sense for the wider setting/Sigismund himself?'. 'Aged physically' does not conflate with 'weakened' when talking about Astartes. For the most extreme example, Space Wolves clearly physically age, longer teeth, grey hair, wrinkled/leathery skin etc., but that doesn't mean they are weaker than they were as Blood Claws.

 

Firstly, Sigismund did not endure for over a millennia. The 1st Black Crusade started in 781.m31. That's 'only' 767 years since the end of the Heresy. So even if Sigismund served from the start of the GC (which there's no evidence for, sure he was Terran, but Terran Legionaries continued to be recruited into the Legions after the Crusade started, and the case of the IFs iirc never stopped) that would only make him 980-ish at the Black Crusade.

 

Secondly, that example of Sigismund is pretty much the only example of an Asartes weakening with age I'm aware of. The closest you get is the ancient Salamander in Kyme's books, but there's some other confounders there like the extreme inactivity of said Marine, which could also explain his atrophied strength. And even then, neither Siggy or said Salamander actually died of old age. They still died to weapons.

 

We now have examples of very old modern Astartes, with no mention of them weakening or slowing with age (at least that I'm aware of). You have Dante (around 1650 post time skip). Logan has been SW Chapter Master for 7-800 hundred years by this point (some canon conflicts there) and so is almost certainly older than Sigismund was (as he isn't Ragnar, and so probably took at least 200 years to go from BC to Great Wolf). Ulrik is even older, having been a Wolf Priest (and so hardly a green rookie) when Logan was recruited. Even someone like Ortan Cassius is plenty old by this point (though there is again some fluff discrepancies, he's stated to be 'almost 400' as of 999.m41, but that would mean he was less than 80 when attached to the Deathwatch, already as a Chaplain, and less than 150 during Hive Fleet Behemoth (which also would make Calgar stupidly young to be Chapter Master, as he's definitely younger than Cassius) which doesn't add up to me), though still probably a tad younger than Siggy at 5-900, depending on how long you think is reasonable for him to rise to Chaplain, acquire sufficient experience to justify a secondment to the Deathwatch (Chaplain being a particularly tricky position for the DW, so would require an even higher standard of candidate than a line trooper), rise sufficiently high as a Chaplain to advise the Chapter Master himself, be old enough to view said Chapter Master as 'young', and then live for another 350-odd years.

 

The closest you get to decline seems to be more mental than physical, like Dante's growing ennui or Ulrik's increased aggression (which hasn't gotten him killed yet, despite his age). So if Siggy was weakened by age, there's easily evidence for that being potentially more of a 'Sigismund thing' (for whatever reason, maybe some previous injury or mental issue) than a general 'Astartes thing'.