Are Ultramarines top tier again

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I was listening to a fairly highly rated competitive ITC tournament player’s podcast today and he stated Ultramarines and Raven Guard are the two top Space Marine supplements now following the FAQ(s). I wonder if this is more speculation than anything else since no one has attended any tournaments for quite some time now.

[N1SB]

Hey Brother, based on what you described, it sounds like he was just theorycrafting or planning ahead.  I think you're right, it's not based on actual tournament results, but he might've played some games already, because I was hearing the same things.  You follow the tournament scene more closely than me and I didn't listen to this podcast, but it happens before the lockdown our locale (there's 1 WAAC meta that sustained the longest established FLGS here sheerly through the tourney crowd) had a dialogue that so mirrored what you described, I thought I'd just compare notes.

 

Summary of what they said: the Space Marine FAQ (late Feb 2020) changed the way Battle Doctrines worked, in effect powering Iron Hands down a bit, while Raven Guard remained top tier, and Ultramarine suddenly went up the tier list.  The logic was as follows, not saying I agree with it, but am curious if this was the podcaster's rationale:

 

> Iron Hands were seen as the go-to choice, mostly because they were so powerful, but also because their playstyle was seen as straight-forward.  A big part of that seemed to be their bonus with the Devastator Doctrine for as long as they wanted.  Now that it has been limited to Turn 1, they lost part of what made them so good.  In effect - here, they were the top Chapter before, but suffered a nerf due to how Battle Doctrines work now, so just moved down a little bit in people's perception here.

 

> Raven Guard was very close to Iron Hands at the top tier, also powerful, but their playstyle needed a bit more finesse, so they were not as popular as Iron Hands here.  But they weren't negatively affected by the FAQ, so stayed about the same.  The lists here usually involved Centurions infiltrating via the Raven Guard stratagem and I see more and more of those in my WhatsApp groups.  In effect - Raven Guard didn't change much I don't think, but they contested the top spot with Iron Hands, and as Iron Hands moved down, Raven Guard overtook them and are seen as "the best".

 

> Ultramarines are the ones that suddenly got the spotlight IMHO, again due to Battle Doctrines.  It's because they've got that Stratagem that lets them use a different Doctrine than what the rest of the army has.  Now that there's that set schedule for Doctrines, they're special because they can manage which Doctrines to use unlike everyone else.  In effect - what was a very situation Ultramarine-specific Stratagem to change Doctrines has now become very relevant now that Doctrines are more set, thus this advantage moved them up the tier list.

 

As you said, this too is speculation, but it does seem to follow where the trend is going.  Like in our WhatsApp chats, I see a lot of people are using their black Marines that used to be Iron Hands become Raven Guard.  Then lots of Centurions painted black.  Also a resurgence in interest for Ultramarines, like people are asking what they think of Marneus Calgar.  The tournament scene might not be playing here, but they're planning, and I'm curious if this is similar to what your podcaster mentioned.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I pretty much agree with your breakdown N1SB. Now the fella who did the podcast is fairly highly rated for ITC and plays lots of power armor armies so even though he’s mostly speculating I give him some cred. I know he like to run the Primaris Grav tanks but other than that I’m not sure what his army composition would really look like. I am thinking the super flexibility of Ultramarines is more potent now. I do think that Iron Hands is still top tier though but it’s just an opinion. Thanks for weighing in.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[emperorpants]

This is a good question, and one I have been thinking about since the space marine nerfs. While all chapters have been nerfed, some are much less effected than others. Ultras actually got added utility in the form of our doctrine manipulation actually being useful now, and in fact, it gives us a good representation of our speciality: tactical flexibility. While in comparison to non marine lists we may gave taken a slight hit (a VERY slight hit) we actually gained quite a bit of ground against other marines.

 

I think Ultras could possibly be in the conversation for top tier now, even if we aren't the best. Raven guard, imo, are still clearly better, and I still think IH are better. However, the gap isn't nearly as big as it used to be. Lets say before the nerfs IH were a 100, RG a 97, and Ultras a 91. Now, IH are a 92, RG a 95, and Ultras a 90. I could be wrong, but I think that would be the rough shake out currently. Who knows though, whenever tourneys start again maybe Ultras will prove to be the strongest, and maybe they won't. It's fun to speculate about though.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"Now, IH are a 92, RG a 95, and Ultras a 90." Sounds about right to me.

[Cruor Vault]

Ultramarines are absolutely one of the top tier chapters right now.  Probably better than Iron hands now that the Iron Hands have been nerfed to reasonable levels.

 

That being said, Ultramarines are one of those factions that isn't front loaded in power.  Their strength comes from their ability to adapt to damn near any situation through their stratagems, Super Doctrine and awesome special characters.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here’s the bulk of his list...

 

2x Executioner

Repulsor

2x 3 Aggressors

5 Aggressors

3x 3 Suppressors

TFC

Jump Pack Lieutenant

Calgar

Edited April 19, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[mel_danes]

BBF what's he using for troops?

Scouts?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That I don’t know tbh. I haven’t added up the points for what’s listed. I’m thinking he’d probably use Intercessors if there are enough points (2000 pts total).

 

edit - he must be using scouts.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

Ultramarines are a high tier army with good situational tools and flexibility.

 

They fall below Iron Hands, Blood Angels and Raven Guard. Also a few of the post psychic awakening Chaos Lists can be stronger, such as Alpha Legion and a few other combinations.

 

Ultras are still good however. I've been playing a few games with my wife during the lockdown lol

Edited April 23, 2020 by Ishagu