Returning player looking for advice

[Emurian]

Good day brothers,

After a 15 year break (4-5th edition) I came back to the hobby as I mostly missed the tranquility of painting.

My old armies used to be (in order) Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Imperial Guard.

I started picking up the new primaris marines as GW finnaly seemed to have fixed the proportions of the models. The goal being to make a full company.

One of my friends that has likewise put the hobby on a halt picked it up again after seeing me paint, and thus we are trying to have a match in June if the Corona allows us to do so. This does give me some time to paint up what I need to play. (He still has his old armies painted, I had to start from scratch again.)

We are aiming for 1250 points. We agreed that we would both show our lists before we start to play and tweak if desired by the other as we do NOT want to end up with the rock paper scissor lists but rather are looking for a 40/60 50/50 game where both players can enjoy.

His proposed list of what he would like to use:
HQ
Cadre fireblade
Coldstar battlesuit

 

Troops:
6x 5 Fire warriors

 

Elites:

2x firesight marksman
1x4 stealthsuits

Fast attack:

3x5 pathfinders

Heavy:
1 Hammerhead w/railgun
2x broadside w/shield drones

He didn't list all the upgrades, I also have the feeling he didn't note down all the drones he bought. That said its a relative good indication of what I will be facing.

The models I have:
Painted:
-20 intercessors
-5 Hellblaster
-3 agressors
-3 Surpressors
-1 Contemptor dread
-1 Redemptor dread
-1 Venerable dread
-1 Repulsor exec.
-1 Techmarine
-1 Captain
-1 Ancient

Models in stock to be painted: (Yah I know its not recommended to hoard stuff in advance)
-10 intercessors
-5 hellblasters
-6 Interceptors
-15 Surpressors
-9 Agressors
-1 chaplain dreadnought
-1 Dreadnought
-1 Venerable dreadnought
-2 Tigerius
-2 Marneus Calgar w/victrix guard
-1 Roboutte 
-3 Apothecary
-1 Thunderfire cannon
-1 landraider crusader
-6 eliminators
-10 infiltrators
-10 Reivers
 

I also don't mind purchasing some additional units if needed, money isn't that much of an issue overall. 

Some core units I would like to use are: 1 captain, 1 techmarine, 3x5 or 4x5 intercessors, 6 agressors, 1 mortis contemptor dread w/lascannons, 1 Repulsor execut. 

Would this core be viable for a fair matchup or can you people give me some pointers how to even the field?

Thanks in advance

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d focus on some solid troop choices like Intercessors and Infiltrators/Incursors to form your core then a Captain upgraded to CM and either a Libby or Lieutenant.

[Cruor Vault]

Calgar and Tigurius should be in every one of the lists you create.  They're two of the BEST characters in the game with significant advantages over the stock options. 

 

Eliminators are also fantastic these days.

[Joukernaut]

I think you need to think about what kind of game you want to play, even within the 40/60, 50/50 demarcation. Do you want an evenly matched competitive game, or do you want an evenly matched casual game? Bringing six aggressors will skew both matches unless your buddy gets first turn and is lucky and kills 3-4. Strong units with a lot of synergy brought in big numbers will almost always destroy casual games. They are fine if you want to play competitively, but then your opponent needs to step up his list. 

For me casual and narrative gaming is the most fun. I use some guidelines for list building if I want to have a fun, casual game.

Max out troop squads, never max out other units, create diversity in our list, makes sure you can deal with everything. If I create a list with these guidelines I always end up with a fun, but tame list that is enjoyable to play against.

I have had my fair share of competitive games as well, but when I play those everything goes, but I make sure my opponent wants exactly the same thing. Competitive games usually aren't as close, especially if you are experimenting with your list.

So looking at your opponents list (with looks like a fun and tame list to play against, not a whole lot of drones, no riptides, only a few marker lights, small unit of broadsides. He has CP but nothing to use it on except marker light strats) and the units you want to use, I would say all is ok, but run a smaller unit of aggressorsand probably drop the executioner depending on your opponents skill. He does not have a lot of longe ranged firepower in his list to deal with it. His list probably can deal with it, but it will take some degree of skill to get it done. I would personally replace it with something else, since you already have good firepower in your mortis dread. The aggressors, the executioner and the mortis dreads are all very efficient units, where his list only has the broadsides (and only two) and the cold star. you would probably shoot him of the bord in two turns if you are equally skilled.

[Emurian]

Thank you for the replies.

Regarding the core of the list, following above advice and drafting the following:

Primaris cpt w/bolt rifle
Tigurius

3 agressors

4x5 intercessors Bolt rifle
2x5 intercessors Stalker bolt rifle

1 Mortis contemptor w/lascannons

Brings the total to 1001 points. 

The only thing that bothers me is that I don't like ''throwing all my eggs in one basket'' when it comes to the anti tank capability of a list. Hence why the other suggested core had 2 units with anti tank weapons. Tips for the remainder 249 pts?

Have some questions regarding the special characters.

Most likely this is explained somewhere in the rulebook but I sold mine while im waiting for the 2nd box of Dark Imperium to arrive: Can Tigurius cast the same power twice in a turn? (Most obvious power I see myself casting is scryers gaze to farm CP)

I also fail to see what makes Marneus so good compared to a regular captain. Your paying an additional 120 points for a beatstick in close combat whereas the Primaris line doesn't seem to have any dedicated CC units (aside Reivers but those look awfull overal) What makes him so much better? Is that 2 CP really that big of a difference? Wouldn't adding a librarian next to your Captain farm more CP over the duration of the game? Wouldn't playing multiple captains instead for their aura's be more beneficial as your gunline doesn't has to be that compact moving forward and allowing more flexibility in splitting up your forces?

 

Regarding the casual vs competitive lists: Our old group was actually very competitive overall. So competitive to the point that we got banned from winning 1 to 3rth place at a nearby city after we contested those spots 5 years on a row and their players where crying we where using ''çheese lists'' (Im srry this is a tournament with real prizes and entry fee so yah we wen't for optimal lists, likewise we quit showing up at said store because we where baffled by their ''rule'' while still expecting us to pay an entry fee [seriously golly gee]) 

 

We didn't mind playing the competitive lists, Example: in 5th Wraithwing lists for Necrons where very popular. Thing is after 25 games we ''knew the pony trick'' and some of us wanted to play a more casual list to make use of our other units. Problem back then was that mainly 2 players F'ed it up for the rest, not wanting to back down on their optimal lists so you either brought your A game or got crushed vs them. (That said, when I picked up the hobby again and thew out some lines to my old contacts we sagreed to simply not inform these 2 players) 

So its not like we feel dirty playing a competitive game, we just don't want to be forced to play the same exact min/max list more then 25x and are looking for games where both players have a decent chance at winning. So we will vary between casual and competitive lists. Thing is we lost the feeling of gauging how much chance list A stands vs B. If you would have shown me a 4th edition SM vs DE/Crons/CWE list then I could have pointed out the X/X win % per army within 30 seconds. The only way to regain this ability is by simply playing out games and reflecting in hindsight how effective unit X was overall.



 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can’t cast the same power twice.

 

Primarneus is god level above a Captain. Compare there entries... not rocket science.

[Emurian]

Well enlighten me because unless they end up in combat I fail to see how Marneus is outperforming a captain when juggling point cost versus effects. I don't see myself ending up in combat versus Tau with a foot slogging commander. 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Why would you not want him in melee? Ultramarines can move with no penalties for two straight turns so depending on deployment he can make combat by turn three. PriMarneus is highly resilient too. Obviously for this game he’s a lot of points which could go elsewhere. You definitely want to bring Tiggy with his buffs, possibly the best psyker in the game now for the points. If you go troop heavy you’ll have board control which is why I recommended it.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Emurian]

AFAIK Tau have special rules w/overwatch which deter you from charging their units.

That said, assume Tau deploy at 11 inches, making a 25 inch gap, requires you to move for at least half the game just to get near said unit. Thats assuming he remains stationary and doesn't start pulling back said unit once your getting close to his gunline.

So my assumption is that he sees 2-3 turns of combat in a game at most. Even if he hits 2 squads of 5 FW, thats 35 points per squad, or 70 points in total. 120 points for that hypothetical 70 points and forcing your game plan to be more straightforward just seems like an iffy investment. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It really depend on the deployment zone you roll up. He hangs back you should have board control. It also depends on your list if you bring infiltrating and/or deep striking units so you can apply multiple pressure points. I have a solid track record versus Tau. If you just want to sit back and roll dice that’s fine but that’s giving away some of your inherent advantages.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is a list I came up for you:

 

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [61 PL, 1,212pts, -3CP] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

 

+ Stratagems +

 

Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of extra Relics

 

Specialist Detachment

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Victrix Honour Guard [3 PL, 70pts]: Victrix Honour Guard, Victrix Honour Guard

 

+ HQ +

 

Chapter Master in Gravis Armor [6 PL, 108pts, -2CP]: Boltstorm gauntlet, Helm of Censure, Master-crafted power sword, Stratagem: Chapter Master, The Imperium's Sword, Warlord

 

Chief Librarian Tigurius [7 PL, 130pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: Infiltrator Sergeant

. 4x Infiltrator: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 86pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Intercessor Sergeant

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 86pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Intercessor Sergeant

 

+ Elites +

 

Primaris Ancient [4 PL, 69pts]: Standard of Macragge Inviolate

 

Primaris Apothecary [3 PL, 60pts]

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [7 PL, 161pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Centurion Devastator Squad [12 PL, 240pts]

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Heavy Bolters

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Heavy Bolters

. Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter, Two Lascannons

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

++ Total: [61 PL, -3CP, 1,212pts] ++

[Joukernaut]

There's obviously nothing wrong with playing competitively if that's what both of you want. If that is what you are looking to get into your friend needs to step up his list and include either more broadsides and drones or a riptide or two and more drones (at least drop the railgunhammerhead, it unfortunately is utter garbage this edition, at least make it ion). If he does that you can play your original list if you like. I think your second list is a list that will make for u fun game against your friends original list.

Like BBF said, board control is very important in most games and getting it without loosing much firepower is ultramarines' biggest shtick, so it is very beneficial to try and learn to use it. A reg

a regular primaries cap is fine, but primarneus gets you two extra CP and saves you two CP by already being a chaptermaster, so that's a net gain of 4 CP. Besides that he is a total beat stick in CC and it is absolutely fun to use that ability. If you prefer to hang back and shoot with a regular cap/Lt combo, I suggest you look into different chapters that do it better.

I think you are right to look for some redundancy in anti tank ins your list, I just thought the executioner may be too much to handle for your opponent. instead of the executioner you could look into suppressors (anti light tank and suits), a second dread or try to get into combat with them with Marneus or the aggressors.

The list BBF suggests is also e very fun list to play and learn the best way ultramarines function best. It utilizes all our strengths. It does require you to get centurions and it still might be more than your opponent can handle.

[Cruor Vault]

Thank you for the replies.

 

Regarding the core of the list, following above advice and drafting the following:

 

Primaris cpt w/bolt rifle

Tigurius

 

3 agressors

 

4x5 intercessors Bolt rifle

2x5 intercessors Stalker bolt rifle

 

1 Mortis contemptor w/lascannons

 

Brings the total to 1001 points. 

 

The only thing that bothers me is that I don't like ''throwing all my eggs in one basket'' when it comes to the anti tank capability of a list. Hence why the other suggested core had 2 units with anti tank weapons. Tips for the remainder 249 pts?

 

At 1000pts you have WAAAAY more troops than is advisable.  Stick to the minimum 3 and use those points saved to bring some more heavy hitters.

 

Drop both units of Stalkers and one of the Bolt Rifle units.  Maybe another dreadnought or more Aggressors.

 

 

Have some questions regarding the special characters.

 

Most likely this is explained somewhere in the rulebook but I sold mine while im waiting for the 2nd box of Dark Imperium to arrive: Can Tigurius cast the same power twice in a turn? (Most obvious power I see myself casting is scryers gaze to farm CP)

 

I also fail to see what makes Marneus so good compared to a regular captain. Your paying an additional 120 points for a beatstick in close combat whereas the Primaris line doesn't seem to have any dedicated CC units (aside Reivers but those look awfull overal) What makes him so much better? Is that 2 CP really that big of a difference? Wouldn't adding a librarian next to your Captain farm more CP over the duration of the game? Wouldn't playing multiple captains instead for their aura's be more beneficial as your gunline doesn't has to be that compact moving forward and allowing more flexibility in splitting up your forces?

 

For starters you cannot cast the same power multiple times in a turn when playing matched play rules.  Even if you have multiple casters with the same power.  The only exception to this is Smite which has its own additional restrictions detailed in one of the FAQs (these were added after the main book was printed).

 

Additionally you cannot regain more than a single CP per battle round (your turn + opponent turn) so stacking Scryers Gaze and Adept of the codex isn't a viable play.  This is another balance issue detailed in the FAQs.

 

Calgar is a bargain for his price.  Yes he's more expensive than a normal captain, but he's significantly harder to kill and hits much harder in melee than anything other than a dedicated smash captain.  Calgar's melee capacity doesn't always come into play in an active fashion.  Often times his mere presence in your gunline when appropriately positioned can dissuade an opponent from charging your more valuable shooting units.

 

Furthermore he gives you the Chapter Master re-rolls AND 2CP for free when he is your warlord.  This is a 4CP swing compared to a generic Captain being upgraded to Chapter Master.  CP are VERY valuable in 8th edition, and Space Marines (Ultramarines in particular) have some really awesome stratagems.

 

Multiple Captains are nowhere near as useful as a Chapter Master as the benefit of re-rolling 1s is FAR outstripped by re-rolling all hits.  For example:

 

Intercessors with no re-rolls hit on 3+ meaning 66% of the time they hit.

 

Intercessors with Captain re-rolls hit 78% of the time.

 

Intercessors with a Chapter Master hit 89% of the time.

 

Chapter Master re-rolls are roughly 2x as much of a bonus assuming there are no modifiers involved.  If the target penalties to hit, the bonus from Chapter Master increases further.

[Emurian]

I appreciate the time you people are taking to reply with constructive posts =).


I dont mind relying on the forum in this case and giving Black Blow Fly list a try. At this point its just going to be trial and error for me to find out which units fit my individual playstyle best. Lets just hope the GW shop, or better said waylandgames, start sending out their orders before June, if not then I am kinda forced to proxy the Centurions but I am sure my mate won't make an issue out of it. 

Main reason why I don't have the Centurion models is because they are . . . not that great looking lets phrase it nicely. I have the same problem with the Invictor Tactical Warsuit but I might have found a solution last week when stumbling upon popgoesthemonkey that offers a way to close that cage at the front. (Still need to contact him as I alrdy received 120 UM shoulderpad insignia's and 60 of each type of unit. Noticed when trying to trim an omega sign they break if I apply to much pressure so I am not sure if this is the same with the Invictor parts that he sells.)
 

Thanks for pointing out the CP generation doesn't stack, thats something I would have stumbled over sooner or later.

 

Getting rid of the hammerhead from his list shouldn't be a problem if I ask for it, should I instead ask him to deploy some regular elite suits? My opponent sortoff has all Tau units in multiples with the exception of Vespids I believe. 

 

I also have to get used to this whole CP thing as that wasn't a thing in 4th edition. Not that we always followed the standard rules back then as 3-5k games with 2vs2 or 3vs3 weren't uncommon with some exceptional 15k battles. Man I miss those days =(.

 

Regarding Calgar I will give him some time to prove himself, have 2 of the models afterall and most likely will end up with a 3rd or even 4th one once I get my honour guard =/. At least I have a mate in India that sadly has near no way to get 40k whereas hes a huge lore monger and fan of our hobby. So I am considering painting up a Marneus for him and sending it as a gift. Seems GW doesn't ship to India, and the nearest shop is in Malesia which doesn't help him either. 

[Joukernaut]

I think you'll have fun with BBF's list once you get the hang of it. I play a similar style, but less competitive. (I switched to narrative gaming, since most of my friends dislike competitive) It really does accentuate the strong point of ultra's with is actually pretty fluffy as well. Move up, shoot stuff, move up further, shoot stuff some more and smack the remainders with your fists/swords. This last part is up for debate, but my experience with it is actually very good. With the new rules primaries are no slouches in combat once the assault doctrine hits.  The banner banner and apothecary (make sure to upgrade him) increase the efficiency of your centurions. The thunder fire cannon is made out of pure gold nowadays.

Your friend can switch his hammerhead for more broadsides, a riptide or a big unit of suits. And very important: enough shield drones to protect them. That makes Tau very difficult to get rid of, but it's not an easy play style to master. I think he has to drop the brigade to give you a good match. Tau don't need very many CP, but they do need some serious firepower. If he wants the CP he can take a double battalion and the puretide engram neurochip. 

I would say a double battalion with a commander each, 10-15 shielddrones, a riptide with burst cannon, ATS and SMS, a unit of missilesides or crisis suits and some character marker lights would be a decent 1250 list.

Somewhere along these lines:

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (T'au Empire) [44 PL, 773pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Cadre Fireblade [2 PL, 42pts]: Markerlight

 

Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit [8 PL, 146pts]: 4x Fusion blaster

 

+ Troops +

 

Breacher Team [2 PL, 35pts]

. 5x Fire Warrior: 5x Photon grenades, 5x Pulse blaster

 

Breacher Team [2 PL, 35pts]

. 5x Fire Warrior: 5x Photon grenades, 5x Pulse blaster

 

Strike Team [2 PL, 35pts]

. 5x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle: 5x Photon grenades, 5x Pulse rifle

 

+ Elites +

 

Firesight Marksman [1 PL, 25pts]: Markerlight, Pulse pistol

 

Firesight Marksman [1 PL, 25pts]: Markerlight, Pulse pistol

 

XV104 Riptide Battlesuit [14 PL, 280pts]: 2x Smart missile system, Advanced targeting system, Heavy burst cannon, Target lock

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 50pts]

. 5x MV4 Shield Drone: 5x Shield generator

 

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 50pts]

. 5x MV4 Shield Drone: 5x Shield generator

 

Tactical Drones [4 PL, 50pts]

. 5x MV4 Shield Drone: 5x Shield generator

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (T'au Empire) [39 PL, 472pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Commander in XV85 Enforcer Battlesuit [7 PL, 130pts]: 3x Cyclic ion blaster

 

Ethereal [2 PL, 45pts]: Honour blade

 

+ Troops +

 

Strike Team [2 PL, 35pts]

. 5x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle: 5x Photon grenades, 5x Pulse rifle

 

Strike Team [2 PL, 35pts]

. 5x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle: 5x Photon grenades, 5x Pulse rifle

 

Strike Team [2 PL, 35pts]

. 5x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle: 5x Photon grenades, 5x Pulse rifle

 

+ Elites +

 

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits [24 PL, 192pts]

. Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Plasma rifle

. Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Plasma rifle

. Crisis Shas'ui: 3x Plasma rifle

. Crisis Shas'vre: 3x Plasma rifle

 

++ Total: [83 PL, 1,245pts] ++

 

Can drop a crisis for another marksmen/fireblade/drones. plasma is not great and not bad, but it is cheap.

[Emurian]

Thats very nice of you thank you, I linked the list in our discord to see what his reaction will be. Knowing him he is open enough for suggestions, I also added that we should simply put some faith in the forum as we lost the touch of list making. Don't think he objects using his Riptide, think the main reason why he didn't deploy one as he is afraid this unit is considered cheesy.

 

Well I got a clear indication of painting goals myself for June, started working on the Victrix Guard yesterday, will have the day off tomorrow so I might be able to wrap up those models by then. Kinda bummed those shields are attached to a cloaked arm, I would love to use one of those to make a smash captain out off, think I have a thunderhammer floating somewhere in my bitbox from the old inquisitor Cortez? model (the bald dude with eagle).

 

 

[Cruor Vault]

Thats very nice of you thank you, I linked the list in our discord to see what his reaction will be. Knowing him he is open enough for suggestions, I also added that we should simply put some faith in the forum as we lost the touch of list making. Don't think he objects using his Riptide, think the main reason why he didn't deploy one as he is afraid this unit is considered cheesy.

 

Well I got a clear indication of painting goals myself for June, started working on the Victrix Guard yesterday, will have the day off tomorrow so I might be able to wrap up those models by then. Kinda bummed those shields are attached to a cloaked arm, I would love to use one of those to make a smash captain out off, think I have a thunderhammer floating somewhere in my bitbox from the old inquisitor Cortez? model (the bald dude with eagle).

 

 

 

 

I should caution both your and your friend against avoiding units because they're "cheesy". 

 

If you're both newer to the game you're going to find weird asymmetries in how you both perceive units resulting in highly skewed perceptions of how the game plays.

 

Yes there are units that are better than others, but at your level of play that it not likely going to impact how your games progress.  It's much healthier for both of you to play what you LIKE rather than trying to cater to each others' inevitably flawed views of what makes a unit broken or not.