Legio Cybernetica Auxiliaries in 40K?

[Mar'Shen]

Hello there. As the title implies, would the Salamanders (I guess this question could be asked of any chapter, but I play the sons of Vulkan) have access to or use old Imperial Robots in the current 40K timeline?

 

My head-cannon for this idea is that the ever-stalwart Eighteenth were gifted said robots during the Great Crusade by the Mechanicum and/or the Legio Cybernetica (are they separate organizations?) Considering the exceptional proficiency the individual members of our legion have at maintaining their own wargear, it frees up the armorers to work on and maintain more relics than other chapters. Therefore, the idea that the Salamanders would have access to them is viable. But would they use them? 

 

To be fair, the main reason I ask is that I like the idea of Centurions and Scouts, but I can't stand the models. But I've seen where someone converted a centurion into robot for a 30K army (Sons of Horus, I think) that looked really nice. And, while I haven't seen any robotic scouts, I have a few ideas on how to make that work.

 

So, thoughts?

[sal of manders]

Legio cybernetica is one of multiple military forces under mechanicum control I believe. My understanding is they fall under the "tech ad mech likes to keep to themselves" category; so I doubt they'd be gifting any to any organizations outside the mechanicus/mechanicum; not even space marine legions or chapters.

 

May want to ask in the ad mech or liber forums.

[N1SB]

Hi Brother Mar'Shen, as an Iron Hands + Mechanicum alliance player in the 30k period, I'll share some experiences relevant to your topic.  I also think it's a really good idea, btw.

 

The TL;DR Summary - imho, you're right, 30k lore utterly supports Salamanders in particular having Imperial Robots/Battle Automata, current 40k lore does present an opening for using them, then I'd probably go with Voraxes (the praying mantis-like ones) to represent Devastator Centurions specifically, but those are just my thoughts.

 

 

+++ 30k Lore: Salamanders definitely had robots +++

 

 

Not only did the Mechanicum gift robots to the Legions, but there was in fact a whole system built around it.  The Legio Cybernetica was part of the overall Mechanicum similar to how the Ordo Hereticus is part of the Inquisition; it's like a division in the overall organisation.  A Marine would send an HQ-level officer to be trained to operate them.  These were called Praevians.  He'd even get special gear to command them, providing buffs.  He would not be a full Techmarine, just a specialist officer that lead Battle Automata.

 

To most Legions, being a Praevian was not a glamourous gig; they'd much prefer to lead other Legionnaires into battle rather than Automata.  However, it is mentioned specifically that Iron Hands and Salamanders saw this as a great honour, who saw it as a bond between them and the Mechanicum.  In the 30k rules, Iron Hands and Salamanders (alongside a few others) allied alongside Mechanicum particularly well.  The practice became an actual thing as the Heresy wore on and casualties mounted, Battle Automata replenished the Legions' fighting strength.  There is a ceremony that swears robots in as honourary members of the Legions.

 

(Sidenote - I noticed you used the old term to describe them, Imperial Robot, that's really straight out of 1st ed 40k.  Then you probably already know, their sideblurb story involved fighting alongside a Marine, who kinda seemed to resent them despite their effectiveness.  Just another case of how 30k kinda pays homage to old 40k.)

 

Thus, not only would the Salamanders have had these Automata, they'd probably maintain them as best they could, as beyond being mere warmachines there was a great deal of sentimental value behind them.  The lore totally backs you on this imho, especially in the case of Salamanders.

 

 

+++ 40k Lore: would Salamanders use them now? +++

 

 

I can't think of any examples off-hand of 30k robots being activated recently, aside from maybe the Man of Iron in Blackstone Fortress, but that's altogether a different thing.  But it doesn't matter, because whatever the case is, because I think the go-to answer for anything right now is: it is the Darkest Hour in the Imperium right now and people are breaking the glass in case of emergency.

 

Just as in the Horus Heresy the Legions turned to Battle Automata as casualties mounted, perhaps the same happened here in the recent lore following the Fall of Cadia, the opening of the Great Rift, etc.  Perhaps the Salamanders activated the Battle Automata before Guilliman arrived with reinforcements in the form of the new Primaris Marines.

 

 

+++ How to incorporate robots into your army +++

 

 

Artistic license is obviously given in Warhammer 40,000, but I think it's best after it is earned.  This is just experience sharing.

 

1st is understanding the rationale to include them, via lore, which we got out of the way as I summed it up for you.  Seriously, it was a 1-page unit profile in Horus Heresy Book VI: Retribution.  Here's the actual model for that Praevian class that would command the robots: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-WW/Legion-Praevian-2018 .  Not being a stickler, I probably take more liberties with my own modeling and painting than most, but I remember I'm still a steward for this grimdark shared setting, as we all are.

 

2nd is remembering that miniatures, aside from being aesthetically awesome, are designed to be playing pieces.  You don't want to model-for-advantage, where switching out your model gave it some benefit to obscure it from Line-of-Sight, etc.  So something like a Vorax should be the same base size and height as a Centurion Devastator, and you should make the weapon options intuitive.  It happens of the robot choices, their statline is kinda close (still different, but that can be explained by how after 10,000 years, some things aren't in mint-condition anymore.)  It's like a user-friendliness issue, and the user in question is whomever you play with.  It's not just about opponents complaining, remember, in most cases our opponents are our Warhammer friends, but it's like if you won via some modeling advantage, it corrupts your own victory.  Please find out about the height and the base size, I think I'm right, but I myself have never seen the 2 models by each other.

 

3rd is realising you're asking permission to make such a change, and I found the best way to do this is to so impress him or so entertain him, he WANTS you to do it.  So I mentioned in the lore that the original Legion Praevian would lead the robots into battle (in fact, game mechanics-wise, he has to join them in a squad, it's an older edition).  I would suggest you include a Captain, Firstborn or Primaris, either is good, who will accompany the Vorax counts-as Centurion Devastators, to reflect that (coincidentally, the buff that Captains give to re-roll 1s To Hit is almost EXACTLY the same buff the Praevian gave to his Autoamata).  That Captain could be represented by the model I linked above or, but this is what I would personally do, I would convert my own to look like that, with his heavy bionics and modified power pack.

 

So, in conclusion, my suggestion:

 

> double-check Vorax are the same height and base size as Devastators if you want to proxy, maybe convert their weapons

> then take a Captain...either that fancy Forgeworld model or better yet your own conversion, to accompany them

 

It sounds like a huge ask, but let me share how you'll know you're successful.  It's not when someone compliments you, they might be being polite.  It's when your opponent eagerly asks if you'll bring your custom unit because he wants to see it.

 

 

+++ Just to show I know what I'm talking about +++

 

 

I had a Chaos list of basically Nurglings driving tanks and manning artillery guns stolen from the Astra Militarum.  There were no rules for Daemonically possessed Guardsmen vehicles, etc. (and actually I chose units that didn't have crew member profiles, so in all the cases the Nurglings were just decorations).  It was via a Forgeworld Index that I could basically hi-jack this stuff in a proper Battle-Forged rule-abiding army, which was usually frowned upon in my local meta as FW units at the time (not anymore) were seen as over-powered and under-costed.

 

Link to the Work-In-Progress of those, btw: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340376-patient-zero-chaos-daemons-astra-militarum-artillery-army/

 

At some point, I changed the list, because I didn't want to confuse new players with all these fancy rulebooks, took away the tanks, replaced them with more standard Daemon stuff.  I faced an opponent and, upon realising I didn't use those tanks anymore, I could see him physically deflate from disappointment.  He wanted to play against them, take pictures of them against his own army.  When I saw that reaction, which totally surprised me, I knew I had nailed it.  He wasn't praising me, in fact he was a little bit pissed, but that's how I knew it was real.

 

It's an amazing feeling, and I want you to be able to feel that way, thus my above recommendations.  I think your idea is really, really good.

Edited April 20, 2020 by N1SB

[Mar'Shen]

I really appreciate the feedback sal of manders and N1SB. And thanks so much for the history lesson. I knew that the Salamanders had a decent working relationship with the modern Mechanicus because of the rare metals found on Nocturne, but I didn't realize that it extended back that far. So far I've only skimmed the 30K lore, so there was a lot there that I didn't know or expect. Like the Praevian role is completely new to me, but I absolutely need to include one now that I know about it.

 

The only problem I see, like you said, is making sure the model sizes are about the same. I did some looking around and learned that the Vorax is on a 60mm base compared to the Centurion's 50mm. I don't know if the the Vorax will fit on a 50mm or not, but at least the height looks right. The conversion I referenced in the original post used the core of the Centurion and made it look, in my opinion, like a mini Domitar. If all else fails, that should be ok, right? If I can find the project again, I'll link it here and show everyone.

 

And I have to say, your Dr. Mario nurglings are just awesome. Well done, indeed.

 

Again, thanks for all the feedback.

[N1SB]

Oh!  Okay, I forgot Centurions are on those odd 50 mm bases (it's like this weird catchweight size).  Thanks for pointing that out.

 

IMHO, after my whole song and dance about "make sure they're the same height & width", I'd say that's totally fine, 50 mm is an odd size I have trouble thinking of anything but Centurions using them.  Just keep the Vorax on their native 60 mm especially if the height looks right.  Or yes, the Domitar if you want, that thing is huge though (way bigger).  Basically, in both cases, you're choosing a slightly or much bigger model than the original, you're an easier target.  The only advantage you might get is if you want to tie up more units in close combat, but if you're taking a Centurion Devastator, people know you'll want to be shooting, so I doubt anyone would accuse you of modeling-for-advantage with those.

 

(And I'd say keep it on 60 mm because you mentioned Sons of Horus instead of Black Legion, suggesting there's a Horus Heresy scene there.  You might switch to Horus Heresy too, that's how I ended up in 30k.)

 

You've totally done the due diligence, at this point you're ready to just talk to your Warhammer scene about your idea.  It'll give you feedback and get their buy-in for the idea. 

[Mar'Shen]

Right on. Thanks again for all the advice. I've been looking at Horus Heresy for a little while now. The models are great, the legions look like they have more personality than their modern counterparts, and who doesn't love Mechanicum robots? Is there a core book like for 40K? Or do each of the books stand alone? 

[Gederas]

Right on. Thanks again for all the advice. I've been looking at Horus Heresy for a little while now. The models are great, the legions look like they have more personality than their modern counterparts, and who doesn't love Mechanicum robots? Is there a core book like for 40K? Or do each of the books stand alone? 

To answer your question about the books, yes there's a core book and they kind of stand alone?

 

So here's how 30k is broken down, rules-wise:

• You have the Rulebook (which may or may not be getting an update soon-ish) to play the game at all. Then for the armies you have:
• The Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List, which is where all the generic units for all Marine forces in 30k are, and the Legiones Astartes: Age of Darkness Legions, which has the Legion-specific units and rules (and Primarchs!). Those two books contain the rules for units from the first five "Black Books", if you'd want any units after Book Five, you'd need to buy the specific Black Book they're in.
• For the Mechanicum robots you'd need the Mechanicum: Taghmata Army List book (or just ask someone who has that book to send you pictures of the Vorax, Castellax and Domitar datasheets )
• Now, the the "Black Books"  I mentioned? They're mostly campaign books, which contain missions and fluff. The rules in books 1-5 are older than the "Red Books", which are mentioned above. You don't NEED books 1-5 to play, but if you want the fluff for Salamanders, then Book 2: Massacre is what you want.
• Now, with the newer Black Books, Retribution has the rules for the: Mastodon Tank, Legion Delegatus, Praevian and Herald, Leviathan Dreadnought, Legion Support Quad Launcher (updated Rapier Quad Mortar) and Contemptor-Cortus Dreadnought. You'll want Retribution because the Praevian is the only way to get Robots outside of getting a Forge Lord Centurion and eating one of your HQ slots.
• I'm unsure about books Seven and Eight, as I think those two are more about specific factions as opposed to general Marines (someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

 

By the way, Black and Red books are so called because of their covers being Black and Red, respectively. Just to avoid any confusion.

 

Also, if you're interested in 30k, come on down to the Age of Darkness section. We don't bite.

 

...

 

Well, most of us anyway. Can't speak for the primarily Blood Angels, Night Lords and World Eaters players

 

 

Oh!  Okay, I forgot Centurions are on those odd 50 mm bases (it's like this weird catchweight size).  Thanks for pointing that out.

It's also a PITA base size to find pre-made detail ones for too I hate having to make custom bases for my Obliterators and Spawn for my Night Lords because of the 50mm bases....

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Gederas

[N1SB]

Brother Gederas covered that real nicely, thank you, Brother.  For easy list-building and reference while playing, we use an App called Battlescribe, which is free on PC or phone.

Edited April 23, 2020 by N1SB

[Mar'Shen]

Hello again, everyone. Thanks again for all the information, it really means a lot. In the middle of all the craziness in the world, I won't be able to get my hands on any Vorax anytime soon. But in between family time and work, though, I've been busy kit bashing and modifying a Centurion. The original plan was to make it a devastator variety, but I got carried away and made a drill-hammer so now it might wind up being an assault type.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/188216880@N08/49822744912/in/dateposted-public/

 

I extended the torso a bit, no more than 1/8" I think (but it really helps) I green-stuffed the hurricane-bolters and will attach some handles to make them hardware access ports. I'm going to take some armor plates to cover the feet on the backside. I haven't decided yet on shoulder mounting the flamers or meltas (haven't decided those yet either) or incorporating them into the gauntlets. I'm thinking of using the existing servo-harness structure off one of the arms to mount a machine gun type weapon to count as the hurricane bolter. I'm still trying to figure out what to do for the head. I've been looking at the Mechanicum robots for inspiration and I'm thinking of using a marine or terminator shoulder pad to give it a Thanatar or Thallax style.

 

Thoughts?

[sal of manders]

liking the drill hammer a lot; just wondering how it's going about wielding it.  You might consider building the melta/flamer onto the hammer like the front of a terrax drill.

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Terrax-Pattern-Termite-Assault-Drill-2018

 

possibly shoulder or arm mount an assault cannon for the hurricane replacement, The AC from the land speeder kit comes to mind.