How could Astartes counter Custodes?

[b1soul]

...in the fluff, not on the table?

 

Hypothetically, if a Legion or several allied chapters knew that they would have to face a significant portion of the Ten Thousand in a larger scale conflict, I'd assume the best best would be for the Astartes to employ as much plasma, meltas, Banestrike bolts, and heavy weaponry as feasible...and avoid melee/bladework whenever possible?

 

Though substantial, I don't think the physical difference between Custodes and Astartes (even Oldmarines) is anywhere as gaping as the difference between Astartes and mortal troopers. However, the Custodes advantage is certainly much more pronounced at close quarters.

 

The more numerous Astartes squads would have to rely on coordination, numbers, and heavy firepower to set up cross-fires and traps, and certainly avoid attacking Custodes at Thermopylae-like choke-points.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Bonus discussion: How do Astartes armies usually try to deal with Custodes armies on the tabletop?

[No Foes Remain]

Well going from information in the HH books (both BL and FW) it seems that Astartes need numbers and/or suprise. In Inferno (HH Black Book 7) there are instances where Custodes are brought down just by numbers, and in the Garro book by BL a Custodian is killed by an ambush by supposedly loyal forces.

 

While typing that it hit me, its similar to what 'normal humans' have to do to kill Astartes. The right weapons, ambushes and ignoreance/arrogance.

[The Unseen]

Meh

Astartes Legions don't have to do anything other than what they were designed too do.

 

A Custodes is a superlative individual fighter, on par with some of the best the Legiones have to offer on a 1v1 scale.

But while the Custodes operate on that scale, the Astartes don't.

 

The Legions were massive interconnected blunt forces, that could hammer *civilizations* into the ground.

And many of those xenos and rebellious human civilisations had scarier things than Custodes in them.

 

So while 1v1 or individual squad on squad would be tilted toward the Custodes to some degree, (while I also agree that the advantage isn't as big fluffwise as it is rules-wise) the Legions have significantly more men and war material to throw at the problem, all of which has had centuries of war against terrible enemies to perfect their craft.

Even the smallest Legions had nearly 10x as many Astartes as there are Custodes period.

 

Tldr, in any major conflict, the Custodes get torn to shreds from the Astartes superior individual and squad co-ordination and overwhelming numerical advantage.

 

The Custodes are primarily a cadre of bodyguards and guardians of the Throne, and they excel at that role, but Legions are primarily an instrument of total war, and they are the *best* at that.

 

There's a reason the 10,000 show up as support for the Astartes in major conflicts like the burning of Prospero, not the other way round.

 

Now if we're talking a chapter taking on a significant Custodes force, things are a little different.

Chapters have significantly reduced numbers advantage, and have suffered a pretty significant war material downgrade in both scale and tech, but if anything are even more tightly knit and co-ordinated, so I'd say it would be fairly even. Circumstances and the exact number of Custodes involved would be deciding factors.

 

If the forces meet on an open plain, the Custodes are going to get crushed under the combination of armor, firepower, and interlocking supporting squads who've had decades or even centuries of sharing battlefields together.

 

On the other hand, if such a battle takes place in tight urban spaces with reduced lines of sight and Vox-jamming, the individual minded custodes can play hit and run without needing support from their commanders and bring their superior close range weapons and training to bear, they'll win.

[Vermintide]

I prefer to think it would actually be a pretty even fight, and all the super-super super-solider fluff is greatly exaggerated propaganda and legend, in universe.

A marine is bigger and tougher than a human, so if they were to fight bare handed, one on one, the Marine could obviously beat any normal human; and in turn, a Custodian could likely beat him- Though it would be much closer. After all, how super can a super soldier get?

 

However, that's not how warfare works, especially not in 40k. You can be as big and tough as you like, but a scorching ball of plasma to the face is going to kill you. Marines are tougher than Guardsmen by virtue of better armour, and being more resilient to a higher degree of injury. For example, a Marine may keep fighting despite lost limbs, whereas only the most fanatical Guardsman would manage not to pass out. The difference between power armour and flak armour is naturally vast.

 

But between a Marine and a Custodian, it's going to be marginal. They both wear power armour, and while the Custodian might have the better gear of the two, it will still have the same weaknesses. A lascannon to the chest will still put a hole directly through either of them. Hence why I think most of it is propaganda- You can be the most elite of the most elite in the entire Imperium, but there's still plenty of weaponry out there capable of instantly vaporising you.

 

Tabletop rules, where these supposedly night invulnerable super-soldiers regularly die in their droves, are where we see the reality behind all the propaganda and mythology ;)

[Lucerne]

Do Custodes have lore regarding stuff like power weapons, plasma, melta, grav...

[The Unseen]

Do Custodes have lore regarding stuff like power weapons, plasma, melta, grav...

Well, their basic weapon is a large power weapon in the style of a bladed spear, with an inbuilt ranged weapon (sometimes masterwork bolter, sometimes an energy weapon of some kind, depends on author)

So their standard equipment is notably better, and some of their vehicles have heavy energy weapons, but idk about foot troops.

[Volt]

...in the fluff, not on the table?

 

Hypothetically, if a Legion or several allied chapters knew that they would have to face a significant portion of the Ten Thousand in a larger scale conflict, I'd assume the best best would be for the Astartes to employ as much plasma, meltas, Banestrike bolts, and heavy weaponry as feasible...and avoid melee/bladework whenever possible?

 

Though substantial, I don't think the physical difference between Custodes and Astartes (even Oldmarines) is anywhere as gaping as the difference between Astartes and mortal troopers. However, the Custodes advantage is certainly much more pronounced at close quarters.

 

The more numerous Astartes squads would have to rely on coordination, numbers, and heavy firepower to set up cross-fires and traps, and certainly avoid attacking Custodes at Thermopylae-like choke-points.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Bonus discussion: How do Astartes armies usually try to deal with Custodes armies on the tabletop?

Don't fight fair and just blow them up from orbit. There is no reason to actually engage the Custodes in combat at all - quite the opposite any martial contact with the enemy should be completely avoided. If you have naval superiority, fry them from space with lance bombardment or use long range artillery if lacking orbital dominance. If forced into a field battle, one should select ground that is specifically hostile to the Custodes, such as magnetic disturbances to screw with anti-grav plates on their transports, and/or bogs, quicksand, marshes, etc of significant depth so the Custodes so they sink into the earth from their own mass (although this would also be a hazard to a marine force, which should obviously choose solid ground within the muck to ensure they don't sink as well).

 

Using solid-shot weapons against Custodes is a poor idea due to their ability to deflect incoming munitions, thus the ideal weapons are the entire available arsenal of plasma, melta, lascannons, grav, and the odd volkite blaster that might be laying around. Grav weapons would be particularly useful, as they completely bypass the actual durability of the wearer's armor with the only thing mattering is how many G's it can sustain before its structural integrity fails, with the g's increased by the mass of the object the grav gun is pointed at (to a point though? we don't really know fully how grav tech works). Astartes are also light on tanks, but have a plethora of aircraft to use on Custodes that would prove useful for strafing the crap out of any ground force, or knocking out their transports. Lastly, any form of urban setting should be avoided, as the best way for a marine to kill a custodes is cleared ground bereft of cover so the only thing the Custodes has to defend themselves is a shield or dodging shots. Which they'll still do and probably jink around most fire from marine small arms, but whatever helps.

 

I prefer to think it would actually be a pretty even fight, and all the super-super super-solider fluff is greatly exaggerated propaganda and legend, in universe.

 

A marine is bigger and tougher than a human, so if they were to fight bare handed, one on one, the Marine could obviously beat any normal human; and in turn, a Custodian could likely beat him- Though it would be much closer. After all, how super can a super soldier get?

 

However, that's not how warfare works, especially not in 40k. You can be as big and tough as you like, but a scorching ball of plasma to the face is going to kill you. Marines are tougher than Guardsmen by virtue of better armour, and being more resilient to a higher degree of injury. For example, a Marine may keep fighting despite lost limbs, whereas only the most fanatical Guardsman would manage not to pass out. The difference between power armour and flak armour is naturally vast.

 

But between a Marine and a Custodian, it's going to be marginal. They both wear power armour, and while the Custodian might have the better gear of the two, it will still have the same weaknesses. A lascannon to the chest will still put a hole directly through either of them. Hence why I think most of it is propaganda- You can be the most elite of the most elite in the entire Imperium, but there's still plenty of weaponry out there capable of instantly vaporising you.

 

Tabletop rules, where these supposedly night invulnerable super-soldiers regularly die in their droves, are where we see the reality behind all the propaganda and mythology

Aurumite is much, much, much stronger than ceramite and Custodes terminators can survive being shot by macrocannons (indirectly, they survive the blast radius according to text).

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Volt

[b1soul]

Auramite is also significantly stronger than ceramite, I believe

 

Against aurmamite, the standard bolter/bolt round and chainsword are of quite limited effect

 

That's why I think the Astartes would need special gear to reduce the deficit so to speak...

 

1. Plasma and Banestrike rounds at longer ranges

2. Meltas [and maybe heavy flamers?] at short ranges

3. As much heavy weapons and armour as available

4. Avoid bladework unless it can't be avoided. If the distance is closed, force those short-range firefights with meltaguns, plasma, Banestrike, flamers etc.

 

I think the difference between, say, fifteen SM with chain (or even powerswords) and five Custodes with their spears is very substantial...despite the numbers disparity, major advantage to the Custodes due to incredible CC prowess

 

However, that advantage really melts away when the SM are toting armour-piercing ranged firepower rather than merely blades and regular bolters.

 

EDIT: We're assuming orbital resolution of the coflict is somehow not possible. Have to engage.

[Dracos]

Master Artisan Las-fusil Long Range Marksmen Eliminators screened by Stalker Intercessors, preferably Raven Guard of course.  Hellblasters arriving via the Shadows just before the survivors approach the Astartes. 

[Lucerne]

Trolling Custodes with grav weapons sounds particularly amusing. All that geneforging and gear doesn't matter if you physically can't move and eventually get squashed.

 

...Especially if you're one of those jokers like the shield captain who wasn't wearing a helmet.

[Volt]

Trolling Custodes with grav weapons sounds particularly amusing. All that geneforging and gear doesn't matter if you physically can't move and eventually get squashed.

 

...Especially if you're one of those jokers like the shield captain who wasn't wearing a helmet.

Also considering the simple grav-gun has the ability to pulverize an entire Leman Russ with one shot, I do not reckon the Custodes would have preferable odds if struck with a grav-beam, even the Terminators. It's specifically an OCP for any form of heavy armor by turning said armor against itself.

[b1soul]

SM forces could also leverage their Librarius of course, even better in situations where Custodes have little or no SoS support

[Captain Idaho]

Adeptus Custodes look likely to fight as part of the Talons of the Emperor, going forward, so that's a consideration not to ignored.

 

In terms of war material and resources, the Adeptus Custodes have powerful and high tech vehicles and weaponry. It's likely they can match Astartes unless they're outnumbered.

 

Outnumbering and fighting dirty would work best did Astartes. Ambush, hit and fade.

 

I also seem to remember First Heretic having a nice explanation where Astartes fight as one, particularly on a unit basis, thus several Marines would sacrifice themselves so the others can win the day.

 

Seems most people are in agreement Astartes would need to overwhelm Custodes with numbers or fight a guerrilla war to defeat Custodes.

[b1soul]

They certainly have the numbers

 

Ten thousand to roughly a million, so about 1:100 (even more lopsided with the Primaris injection)

 

I think a thousand Custodes would have an extremely hard time taking on a hundred thousand Astartes in an all-out war...too much firepower at the latter's disposal.

 

Custodes work best as a speartip backed up by Astartes (see Prospero). Alone, I think they'd be badly outgunned.

[Hfran Morkai]

Thank you for that macro cannon fluff, that's my suggestion done.

 

Flesh Eater virus?

[Vermintide]

Aurumite is much, much, much stronger than ceramite and Custodes terminators can survive being shot by macrocannons (indirectly, they survive the blast radius according to text).

 

Space Marine fluff has portrayed them as able to level entire planets with little more than five tactical marines and three magazines of boltgun rounds each for decades. We both know that's not exactly the reality of the matter. I could point to any number of fluff pieces from Marine books over the years that made them sound exactly as invulnerable as the present Custodes fluff makes them. As readers, we are expected to know that such a fearsome reputation doesn't always translate into reality.

 

This is why the Guard are still the backbone of the Imperium, and these genetically engineered monsters are special forces, deployed only in the direst of situations.

[Trevak Dal]

Yeah I realistically think it would take a company to take over a system, but to hold it (effectively) they would need the Militarium or the support of PDF forces.

 

Astartes are basically budget friendly super soldiers, with the Custodates being Real Super Soldiers, Spartan 4s against Spartan 2s to use the Halo reference.

 

The militarium could defeat Custodates if they have enough soldiers and could continuously fall back (and somehow deny the Custodates teleportation and also deny them rapid response from their jetbikes)

 

That's how you'd defeat Astartes as normal humans, try to limit their assets, drop buildings and improvised explosives-you want a couple hundred pounds of formerly sheet copper blasting into them, shearing off limbs.

 

Astartes would have better tools, but keeping them from charging (some chapters) would be difficult, and :cuss could go down like that time the Emperor sent XII legion to stop a Thunder Warrior jailbreak (thunder warriors all killed, but with dozens of Legionaries at their feet)

 

I bet their guardian spears are very annoying to reload (like a Terminator with a power fist and a storm Bolter...I mean it's dexterous and all but come on...)

Edited April 21, 2020 by Trevak Dal

[Volt]

 

Aurumite is much, much, much stronger than ceramite and Custodes terminators can survive being shot by macrocannons (indirectly, they survive the blast radius according to text).

 

Space Marine fluff has portrayed them as able to level entire planets with little more than five tactical marines and three magazines of boltgun rounds each for decades. We both know that's not exactly the reality of the matter. I could point to any number of fluff pieces from Marine books over the years that made them sound exactly as invulnerable as the present Custodes fluff makes them. As readers, we are expected to know that such a fearsome reputation doesn't always translate into reality.

 

This is why the Guard are still the backbone of the Imperium, and these genetically engineered monsters are special forces, deployed only in the direst of situations.

 

Depending on the bolts loaded, the model of boltgun, the angle of shot, and the shot placement, a boltgun is in fact more deadly against armor than the blast wave of a macrocannon. Penetration is a complicated affair and a hypersonic bolt is more effective at achieving penetration through thick armor than the unfocused energy of a large explosion.

 

 

 

Yeah I realistically think it would take a company to take over a system, but to hold it (effectively) they would need the Militarium or the support of PDF forces.

 

Astartes are basically budget friendly super soldiers, with the Custodates being Real Super Soldiers, Spartan 4s against Spartan 2s to use the Halo reference.

 

The militarium could defeat Custodates if they have enough soldiers and could continuously fall back (and somehow deny the Custodates teleportation and also deny them rapid response from their jetbikes)

 

That's how you'd defeat Astartes as normal humans, try to limit their assets, drop buildings and improvised explosives-you want a couple hundred pounds of formerly sheet copper blasting into them, shearing off limbs.

 

Astartes would have better tools, but keeping them from charging (some chapters) would be difficult, and could go down like that time the Emperor sent XII legion to stop a Thunder Warrior jailbreak (thunder warriors all killed, but with dozens of Legionaries at their feet)

 

I bet their guardian spears are very annoying to reload (like a Terminator with a power fist and a storm Bolter...I mean it's dexterous and all but come on...)

Custodes move too fast for really any amount of Guard to be effective against them as anything more than buffers to slow them down for creeping waves of basilisk bombardment. Otherwise they're literally too fast to track via MK 1 eyeball and almost certainly faster than the traverse rates of turrets or even the arming speed of IED's.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Volt

[b1soul]

I think a large number of Guard with the right weapons could bring down a Custodes at range. The same would apply to the Guard's ability to take down Eldar, whose combat specialists are not necessarily slower than Custodes.

 

In close combat, Guard are practically useless against SM, never mind Custodes. It would require a human dogpile with envenomed cultist blades to take down one.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Custodes move too fast for really any amount of Guard to be effective against them as anything more than buffers to slow them down for creeping waves of basilisk bombardment. Otherwise they're literally too fast to track via MK 1 eyeball and almost certainly faster than the traverse rates of turrets or even the arming speed of IED's.

 

Sorry, but this doesn't add up. Just the basic logic of it doesn't gel. We know that Astartes can and have killed Custodes. We also know that regular humans/Guard can and have killed Astartes. So it seems bizarre to claim that Guard could never be a threat to Custodes.

 

You're also horrifically overstating how fast Custodes are. They are definitely not faster than arming speed of explosives. A chemical trigger, something like detcord burns at over 18 times the speed of sound, and electricity is thousands of times faster. Custodes are clear not moving at supersonic speeds, therefore they wouldn't be able to outrun explosive arming speeds. Turret traverse is more plausible, but also more relative, as it's entire dependent on speed. You'll never outrun turret traverse at significant range, but it looks like even a modern human could outrun turret traverse at point blank range (Chllenger 2 is around 8 m long, with it taking somewhere around 4.5 seconds to turn the turret 180 degrees, and average human running speed is around 6 m/s). So, if the Custodes are in stabbing range of the tanks, the tanks are probably screwed (but this is also the case for Marines), but that doesn't really help at longer ranges. Sure Custodes are fast, but they're not The Flash.

 

[b1soul]

Custodes aren't breaking any sound barrier. They're sprinting speed is most likely less than twice that of a Space Marine, since the latter only seem to be moderately slower than the former when they're trying to get to a place fast together.

[Volt]

Custodes aren't breaking any sound barrier. They're sprinting speed is most likely less than twice that of a Space Marine, since the latter only seem to be moderately slower than the former when they're trying to get to a place fast together.

Both Space Marines and Custodes are mentioned constantly in books as being able to move faster than humans can literally react, which is in fact quite fast. Hell in that recent short story posted on the BL it already mentions that the mortal crew could only stand and gawk as the superhumans slugged it out faster than anybody else could react.

 

 

 

Custodes move too fast for really any amount of Guard to be effective against them as anything more than buffers to slow them down for creeping waves of basilisk bombardment. Otherwise they're literally too fast to track via MK 1 eyeball and almost certainly faster than the traverse rates of turrets or even the arming speed of IED's.

 

Sorry, but this doesn't add up. Just the basic logic of it doesn't gel. We know that Astartes can and have killed Custodes. We also know that regular humans/Guard can and have killed Astartes. So it seems bizarre to claim that Guard could never be a threat to Custodes.

 

You're also horrifically overstating how fast Custodes are. They are definitely not faster than arming speed of explosives. A chemical trigger, something like detcord burns at over 18 times the speed of sound, and electricity is thousands of times faster. Custodes are clear not moving at supersonic speeds, therefore they wouldn't be able to outrun explosive arming speeds. Turret traverse is more plausible, but also more relative, as it's entire dependent on speed. You'll never outrun turret traverse at significant range, but it looks like even a modern human could outrun turret traverse at point blank range (Chllenger 2 is around 8 m long, with it taking somewhere around 4.5 seconds to turn the turret 180 degrees, and average human running speed is around 6 m/s). So, if the Custodes are in stabbing range of the tanks, the tanks are probably screwed (but this is also the case for Marines), but that doesn't really help at longer ranges. Sure Custodes are fast, but they're not The Flash.

 

 

The guard actually being a threat to either marines or custodes never made any sense in the lore due to the prescribed attributes both have, along with other concerns such as authors not knowing how melee actually works (if something is superhuman, you literally cannot parry or even resist blows from it without having your defense crumpled. Even something so minor as having "merely" a couple hundred pound advantage in lifting/pushing strength would allow you to sling through normal humans in a terribly silly matter, let alone thousands of pounds).

Edited April 22, 2020 by Volt

[Sky Potato]

 

 

Custodes aren't breaking any sound barrier. They're sprinting speed is most likely less than twice that of a Space Marine, since the latter only seem to be moderately slower than the former when they're trying to get to a place fast together.

Both Space Marines and Custodes are mentioned constantly in books as being able to move faster than humans can literally react, which is in fact quite fast. Hell in that recent short story posted on the BL it already mentions that the mortal crew could only stand and gawk as the superhumans slugged it out faster than anybody else could react.

That just means that Astartes and Custodes can process information and react faster than unmodified humans can. Because it isn’t just reacting, it’s processing the information to hand and then reacting. The processing of the information takes much much longer. It’s why thinking distance is a thing when you apply the brakes on your car.

 

In other words, enhanced humans have a much shorter OODA loop. Without getting too much into the subject, if you can break someone’s OODA loop, it can appear as if you’ve paralysed them. If someone acts and changes the circumstances of the situation before you’ve finished processing the original information definitely counts as breaking the OODA loop.

 

Edit for clarity - I reread the last sentence and it didn’t quite make sense. Fixed now.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Sky Potato

[Dracos]

 

 . . . . along with other concerns such as authors not knowing how melee actually works (if something is superhuman, you literally cannot parry or even resist blows from it without having your defense crumpled. Even something so minor as having "merely" a couple hundred pound advantage in lifting/pushing strength would allow you to sling through normal humans in a terribly silly matter, let alone thousands of pounds).

 

 

^this^

 

I am consistently amazed at the poor choreography in book and cinema detailing melee from human to superhuman. More books than cinema though. The visual medium forces the creators to put at least a modicum of effort in utilizing real world physics and fighting styles. Because you know ... the Internet flames them if they don't.

 

Books though. Not all, but too many so-called authors can write great people but not environments. Great environments but not fictional societies ... and way too many need to takr a boxing class, a self defense course, god anything but what we end up with. Volts hit the head on 40k authors poorly portraying the attributes a Transhuman would have. They might have the superhuman size and durability, but theses guys aren't the Hulk.

 

Speed, superhuman speed and agility would be the greatest edge a Transhuman would have over other creatures. Describing Space Marines as these brutish muscle bound armored grunts has always mad eme cringe. When the Game had stats for Initiative and opposing WS were important it better conveyed a Space Marine physical characteristics. The Speed of Eldar, the SIze of Orks, armored as well as a tank. Too many just attribute that last part to Marines anymore :( The Marines would have a fighting style that took advantage of each of these attributes determined by the opponent they faced . . . . and ramp it to 11 for Custodes of course (bleh)

[b1soul]

I believe the power-armoured sprint speed of Astartes is mentioned in the NL series. Talos does roughly 85km/h. Let's be generous and say that wasn't his maximum sprint, so maybe he can hit 100km/h in short bursts. So let's say Custodes are super-fast and can hit 130km/h.

 

These are numbers I could buy without too much incredulity.

 

In contrast, the speed of sound is approx. 340m/s (or 1230km/h). A bullet from an M1911 only has a muzzle velocity of approx. 250m/s, and a Boeing 747 has a top speed of less than 1000km/h. We'd be entering really silly Marvel territory here.