How could Astartes counter Custodes?

[Raktra]

Still more than twice the highest recorded human speed in history thus far, let’s not downplay it too much.

[Volt]

 

 

 . . . . along with other concerns such as authors not knowing how melee actually works (if something is superhuman, you literally cannot parry or even resist blows from it without having your defense crumpled. Even something so minor as having "merely" a couple hundred pound advantage in lifting/pushing strength would allow you to sling through normal humans in a terribly silly matter, let alone thousands of pounds).

 

 

^this^

 

I am consistently amazed at the poor choreography in book and cinema detailing melee from human to superhuman. More books than cinema though. The visual medium forces the creators to put at least a modicum of effort in utilizing real world physics and fighting styles. Because you know ... the Internet flames them if they don't.

 

Books though. Not all, but too many so-called authors can write great people but not environments. Great environments but not fictional societies ... and way too many need to takr a boxing class, a self defense course, god anything but what we end up with. Volts hit the head on 40k authors poorly portraying the attributes a Transhuman would have. They might have the superhuman size and durability, but theses guys aren't the Hulk.

 

Speed, superhuman speed and agility would be the greatest edge a Transhuman would have over other creatures. Describing Space Marines as these brutish muscle bound armored grunts has always mad eme cringe. When the Game had stats for Initiative and opposing WS were important it better conveyed a Space Marine physical characteristics. The Speed of Eldar, the SIze of Orks, armored as well as a tank. Too many just attribute that last part to Marines anymore The Marines would have a fighting style that took advantage of each of these attributes determined by the opponent they faced . . . . and ramp it to 11 for Custodes of course (bleh)

 

It's also not just marines, but any form of superhuman fighter in 40k that should be able to simply mulch through guardsmen with casual ease, including Orks. I've fenced, and while you can reasonably deal with differences of strength on the human level ie, women can still handle blows from burly men pretty fine without having to worry so much about the impact force sending your sword flying into your face, and if they do put such strength behind the blow it'll likely just imbalance the burly guy and allow a fairly easy riposte during their recovery. But once you get into that superhuman level, no baseline human lacking bionics, vat grown limbs, or psychic powers should be able to tango with a large Ork, Marine, or Tyranid. The strength gap is simply too much and that chainsword you're using to intercept the blow will be returned at your face at very high speeds and possibly kill you. With Marines it would literally be like trying to parry a medieval cannonball in terms of power.

[Vermintide]

I mean... It wouldn't, though? Marines are 1.3 times as strong as a normal human. We know this because they're S4 compared to a S3 human. I forget if Custodes are S5 or S6 but either way... We're playing within the realms of double the strength, not literally cannonball strength.

I'm chosing to go with tabletop rules because unlike the Black Library, they're canon ;)

[Volt]

I mean... It wouldn't, though? Marines are 1.3 times as strong as a normal human. We know this because they're S4 compared to a S3 human. I forget if Custodes are S5 or S6 but either way... We're playing within the realms of double the strength, not literally cannonball strength.

 

I'm chosing to go with tabletop rules because unlike the Black Library, they're canon

If you're just here to troll, why are you in a lore thread?

[bluntpencil]

I mean... It wouldn't, though? Marines are 1.3 times as strong as a normal human. We know this because they're S4 compared to a S3 human. I forget if Custodes are S5 or S6 but either way... We're playing within the realms of double the strength, not literally cannonball strength.

 

I'm chosing to go with tabletop rules because unlike the Black Library, they're canon

You're assuming that S4 is 1.3 times S3 though, for an abstracted system, when it very probably isn't.

 

For one thing - power armour is noted for making its wearers significantly stronger. Yet Space Marine Scouts and Primaris Marines have the same S stat.

 

Likewise, an Imperial Guard Veteran from, let's say Valhalla, could very easily be significantly stronger (probably even 1.3x) than a starving Conscript from Armageddon. Yet they're both S3. 

 

Better examples though, are the extremes. An Imperial Knight is S8. If you honestly think a giant robot the size of a five floor building is less than three times the strength of a Conscript, you're having a giraffe, mate. The stats, for S and T at least, are obviously exponential.

[Lord_Caerolion]

To go back an edition, the difference between S3 and S4 is that S4 can punch a tank barehanded and do damage. Even without that, Tau plasma guns are S6, and I severely doubt they’re just twice as strong as a punch from some random schmoe human civilian.

Game stats are very obviously an abstraction, rather than a definitive, hard scale.

[b1soul]

@ Raktra

 

Who is downplaying what?

[Vermintide]

You're assuming that S4 is 1.3 times S3 though, for an abstracted system, when it very probably isn't.

 

For one thing - power armour is noted for making its wearers significantly stronger. Yet Space Marine Scouts and Primaris Marines have the same S stat.

 

Likewise, an Imperial Guard Veteran from, let's say Valhalla, could very easily be significantly stronger (probably even 1.3x) than a starving Conscript from Armageddon. Yet they're both S3.

 

Better examples though, are the extremes. An Imperial Knight is S8. If you honestly think a giant robot the size of a five floor building is less than three times the strength of a Conscript, you're having a giraffe, mate. The stats, for S and T at least, are obviously exponential.

Yeah, I'd at least say the S and T values are a logarithmic rather than linear scale, or else it really doesn't make sense.

 

But asides from that, while I'm aware the in game values are an abstraction and not a concrete source of information, it really is pointless to discuss this topic without some form of grounding. My point is that we see custodes fall relatively easily on the board, they're obviously not Superman like immortals, and narratively, that's just really terrible writing. Even Superman has his kryptonite, and in this case it's a lascannon to the face.

 

If you'd really prefer to have these guys be demi-god Mary Sues then fair enough, but I don't find the concept appealing at all.

 

 

If you're just here to troll, why are you in a lore thread?

I'm not trolling mate, lighten up. We're discussing fantasy supersoldiers here. I'm just saying I like to think of them being a little bit more grounded than Marvel Comic level superheroes with no weaknesses.

 

They're obviously going to be invulnerable killing machines in their own stories. That's pretty much my point- Were meant to know this is a universe where even they can be killed with relative ease.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Both Space Marines and Custodes are mentioned constantly in books as being able to move faster than humans can literally react, which is in fact quite fast.

 

 

 

That's not actually 'that' hard though. Humans in real life can do that. 

 

Example video:

 

Could you follow that guy's draw with your eye, let alone react of he did it in front of you? I sure couldn't.

 

The point isn't that a Guardsman should be expected to go 1 on 1 vs a Marine or Custodes, they obviously can't (barring truly exceptional individuals or circumstances). But that doesn't (and shouldn't) mean they're entirely chaff either.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Leif Bearclaw

[b1soul]

I don't see why Guardsmen (or Stormtroopers/Kasrkin) with several heavy bolter emplacements couldn't bring down a few Custodes with a crossfire if circumstances dictate that the Custodes have to traverse the killzone

[Panzer]

 

You're assuming that S4 is 1.3 times S3 though, for an abstracted system, when it very probably isn't.

 

For one thing - power armour is noted for making its wearers significantly stronger. Yet Space Marine Scouts and Primaris Marines have the same S stat.

 

Likewise, an Imperial Guard Veteran from, let's say Valhalla, could very easily be significantly stronger (probably even 1.3x) than a starving Conscript from Armageddon. Yet they're both S3.

 

Better examples though, are the extremes. An Imperial Knight is S8. If you honestly think a giant robot the size of a five floor building is less than three times the strength of a Conscript, you're having a giraffe, mate. The stats, for S and T at least, are obviously exponential.

Yeah, I'd at least say the S and T values are a logarithmic rather than linear scale, or else it really doesn't make sense.

 

But asides from that, while I'm aware the in game values are an abstraction and not a concrete source of information, it really is pointless to discuss this topic without some form of grounding. My point is that we see custodes fall relatively easily on the board, they're obviously not Superman like immortals, and narratively, that's just really terrible writing. Even Superman has his kryptonite, and in this case it's a lascannon to the face.

 

If you'd really prefer to have these guys be demi-god Mary Sues then fair enough, but I don't find the concept appealing at all.

 

It's not even that. GW has repeatedly mentioned that it's a scale. S4 is not just S4. Something can be at the lower end of S4 and therefore much closer to S3 while something else can be at the upper end of S4 and therefore much closer to S5. So while there would be almost one full strength step between those two units both would still be just S4 on the paper.

[b1soul]

As mentioned, the tabletop stats are an abstraction, not a concrete source of fluff info. Interesting reference but not? to be taken literally.

[Volt]

 

Both Space Marines and Custodes are mentioned constantly in books as being able to move faster than humans can literally react, which is in fact quite fast.

 

 

 

That's not actually 'that' hard though. Humans in real life can do that. 

 

Example video:

 

Could you follow that guy's draw with your eye, let alone react of he did it in front of you? I sure couldn't.

 

The point isn't that a Guardsman should be expected to go 1 on 1 vs a Marine or Custodes, they obviously can't (barring truly exceptional individuals or circumstances). But that doesn't (and shouldn't) mean they're entirely chaff either.

 

 

And a gun is a very different matter from melee, or closing distance. The average human reaction speed is .25 seconds for visual stimuli, and in order to jump somebody before they could even react from a distance would require instant acceleration to 16gees or more. Not just simply quick drawing, but immediately reaching top speed and moving with such swiftness that those around them are left gawking and incapable of reacting even if they want to, which likely means the actual "window" of movement is shorter than .25 seconds. That's not just fast, that's something you're not going to be able to fight at close range at all, can never, ever hope to engage in melee regardless of numbers, and would only be possibly able to hit at long ranges with rifle fire (although accuracy is questionable, especially as both marines and custodes can jink and immediately accelerate in another direction).

 

So yes, everything lacking some kind of nervous system augments or bizarre natural biology is basically going to accomplish nothing but dying in melee and literally would have no ability to even engage in melee. This applies to Eldar as well, as although they lack in strength, no human who isn't of bizarre evolutionary divergence or augmentation should simply die when fighting anything able to outpace their very ability to react to stimuli at close ranges. They could still engage the enemy at a distance, but once an Eldar/Custodes/Space Marine closes into point blank range a normal human can do literally nothing to fight something like that.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

And a gun is a very different matter from melee, or closing distance. The average human reaction speed is .25 seconds for visual stimuli, and in order to jump somebody before they could even react from a distance would require instant acceleration to 16gees or more. Not just simply quick drawing, but immediately reaching top speed and moving with such swiftness that those around them are left gawking and incapable of reacting even if they want to, which likely means the actual "window" of movement is shorter than .25 seconds. That's not just fast, that's something you're not going to be able to fight at close range at all, can never, ever hope to engage in melee regardless of numbers, and would only be possibly able to hit at long ranges with rifle fire (although accuracy is questionable, especially as both marines and custodes can jink and immediately accelerate in another direction).

 

So yes, everything lacking some kind of nervous system augments or bizarre natural biology is basically going to accomplish nothing but dying in melee and literally would have no ability to even engage in melee. This applies to Eldar as well, as although they lack in strength, no human who isn't of bizarre evolutionary divergence or augmentation should simply die when fighting anything able to outpace their very ability to react to stimuli at close ranges. They could still engage the enemy at a distance, but once an Eldar/Custodes/Space Marine closes into point blank range a normal human can do literally nothing to fight something like that.

 

Kinda feel like your moving the goalposts a tad here. The point ultimately isn't isn't 'who'd win at punching?' it's 'can Guard threaten Custodes?'. My initial point was, given that Astartes can kill Custodes (this is simply a fact of the setting) and Guard can kill Astartes (also a fact of the setting) saying that Guard could never be effective against Custodes doesn't add up, as 40k doesn't operate on rock-paper-scissors logic.

 

The gun illustration was to highlight that you don't need to be The Flash to beat human reaction times, it's already within the upper limits of human ability. For another example (more melee focused too) look at boxing. Now, I'm far from an expert on boxing, but there are a number of boxers that are stupid fast, and their opponents just can't respond.

 

However, what counts as a 'reaction' for these purposes? Fighting back, fighting back successfully or (to paraphrase Snatch) freezing and pulling a stupid face? All are reactions (you've responded to the stimulus) but they'll have vastly different effects on a fight scene. Take the recent Consequences story. After the first shot is fired, everyone reacts. The Sister (highly trained but still 'baseline' human) and Primaris captain draw weapons in roughly the same time frame (same paragraph). While the naval crewmen react slower they're still reacting (but the nature of their reaction is also less extreme, as the situation is outside their expectations and context "Robed figures dove for cover or cowered, trapped in place by paralysing fear. Armsmen blinked and half-raised their weapons, unsure of how to react to a situation that would never have entered into even their darkest dreams."). The Ship's captain is also able to order "I will not have weapons fire on my bridge" before the fight proper starts. Even when it does, when the Custodes knocks aside the Marine's gun one of the stray shots hits a fleeing rating. Note he's already fleeing, he's reacted to the situation. Then later the Custodian's weapon (weapon, not the entire golden giant) is noted as moving so fast she can barely track it (but she clearly can). It seems to me less like the superhumans are reacting massively faster (they are, but not by that much, as the Sister is roughly in line with the Marine) but rather they're reacting more usefully. Again, I'm not saying Custodes (or Marines) aren't faster than normal dudes, but they don't need to be as fast as you seem to think to

 

Look, I'm not arguing that Johnny Guardsman with a pointy stick is going to drop a Custodes. Only that you're massively overstating the power level of the Custodes. Remember, your initial claim was effectively that Custodes move at supersonic speeds (able to outrun the arming speed of explosives). My point is both that they clearly aren't that fast in the fluff, but they also don't need to be to achieve their canonical feats.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Leif Bearclaw

[Vermintide]

There's also the fact that this setting actually did have a human character who was, for all intents and purposes, a near omnipotent living God once. Look how things worked out for him... Not like it's one of the most fundamental parts of the setting or anything.

 

Nothing in 40k is immortal. Not even gods. So while it might take a lot, Astartes and Guardsmen absolutely could take down the Custodes, given the right circumstances; and they certainly have the advantage of raw numbers.

[b1soul]

Lasguns would be terrible at dealing with Auramite-clad Custodes

 

...to pose a threat, the Guardsmen simply need to have the right heavy armament and defensive positions

 

If a small number of Custodes have to overrun those positions, they could take casualties

[Dracos]

Actually it’s better to have a more mobile platform with said heavy weapon. Static defenses are a sure way to find yourself dead against a more powerful OpFor

 

 

It’s why you can’t take 40k tactics seriously. The game on tabletop has so many flaws as a simulation, you just need to take it for what it is.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Dracos

[MegaVolt87]

Actually it’s better to have a more mobile platform with said heavy weapon. Static defenses are a sure way to find yourself dead against a more powerful OpFor

 

 

It’s why you can’t take 40k tactics seriously. The game on tabletop has so many flaws as a simulation, you just need to take it for what it is.

 

That's why  static defense are made in the most inconvenient and inhospitable places to force the superior enemy to limit their options for the conflict and suffer more casualties than they should against a less capable enemy force. 

[Dracos]

I'm not sure what you're getting at? The situation you describe might be part of a plan utilizing defense in depth as a delaying tactic. It will force the aggressor to bring air superiority and heavy/siege weaponry to bear, but in the end the result will be the same. An aggressive opposition gets to set the pace by laying siege until the have to force required to crack the static defenses "walls". No modern military plan uses static defenses other than as a part of a plan for defense in depth. There is no bunker that the right bomb can't eventually turn to dust, including Cheyenne Mountain.

[MegaVolt87]

I'm not sure what you're getting at? The situation you describe might be part of a plan utilizing defense in depth as a delaying tactic. It will force the aggressor to bring air superiority and heavy/siege weaponry to bear, but in the end the result will be the same. An aggressive opposition gets to set the pace by laying siege until the have to force required to crack the static defenses "walls". No modern military plan uses static defenses other than as a part of a plan for defense in depth. There is no bunker that the right bomb can't eventually turn to dust, including Cheyenne Mountain.

 

The end result may not be same, in the instance of just custodes on their own getting tied up by IG/ Imperial army, they are robbed of their maneuver and flexibility and very vulnerable to reinforcements which would be an Astartes attack. Every custde that can and will die to the firepower of lesser troops is less casualties the astartes force will suffer in return when they fight. Even less high tech forces in modern 40k would have the firepower and numbers to bog down custodes. Its even harder for custodes if the enemy has psykers to back them up, they are not completely protected from them. Custodes by themselves are not a suitable force for conventional battle without support, unlike legionaries. Modern SM hit the same problem due to the codex reforms, limiting their numbers, fleet dispositions etc. 

 

Also remember 30k 40k static defences can be pretty crazy with void shields that run from a planets core, kine shielded by psykers etc, turrets with battleship grade weapons and so on. Also non permanent fortifications the Imperials use can rival permanent fixtures. 

[The Unseen]

Yeah, void shields and other similar magic space tech and stuff like adamantium mean static defences in 40k make way more sense than in the modern era.

A void shield protected imperial fortress requires constant bombardment from high energy weapons to break open, and its been generally established that 40k starships have a lot of difficulty firing at ground targets accurately and for any length of time, so sustained bombardment from orbit to crack void shields usually isn't an option, either because of inaccurate orbital fire, collateral damage, or the fact that orbital defences can be protected by the same void shield, and planetary based weapons can be really REALLY big.

 

40k is a universe where armor and fortifications are better than the normal weapons available, to an extent.

Circled back to when primitive firearms and steel plate armor where on the same battlefields.

Castles weren't invulnerable to cannons, but they were heavily resistant

Same with 40k fortresses.

 

Reminds me of one of my favorite lines in an older trilogy of sci-novels titled the "Forever Hero"

A intelligent but barbaric individual is practicing with throwing knives, in a universe were firearms are high powered energy weapons, and someone else makes a disparaging comment. The barbarian replies that anything you can't take with men like him armed with melee weapons and low-energy projectiles, you're better off just obliterating it from orbit.

Trying to take a heavily defended installation with high energy weapons leads to both sides suffering horrendous casualties and whatever you wanted to acquire intact is usually ruined anyway.

So better to save yourself the trouble and just burn it.