Options to get Deathwing into Combat.

[Get Thokt]

Hey everyone,

I'm still learning about how to use Dark Angels and started looking to Deathwing Knights. I have a few questions on how to get these guys into combat.

 

1. Is there any way for them to get into combat turn 1?

 

2. As I understand, the Combined Assault Strategem allowa Deathwing Knights to get a fairly good charge. But what about our HQ buffers like DW Ancient and Asmodai? How do DA players get their Knights into combat and in range of buffing HQs?

 

These are my most pondering questions so far. Look forward to your answers.

[Skywrath]

Hey everyone,

I'm still learning about how to use Dark Angels and started looking to Deathwing Knights. I have a few questions on how to get these guys into combat.

 

1. Is there any way for them to get into combat turn 1?

 

2. As I understand, the Combined Assault Strategem allowa Deathwing Knights to get a fairly good charge. But what about our HQ buffers like DW Ancient and Asmodai? How do DA players get their Knights into combat and in range of buffing HQs?

 

These are my most pondering questions so far. Look forward to your answers.

 

I believe I can answer that question.

 

1. None that I can think off. I think Drop Pods are still deployment at turn 2, however I might be wrong.

 

2. You would use the DW Ancient to help get the charge off, and positioning Asmodai to get that litany off is the trick. But if you are running the Ancient, you wouldn't need Asmodai to get that charge off - you would want him with Exhortation of Rage, and Mantra of Strength, assuming the DWK were the star of your show.

 

Personally I have two ways to get my DWK off - one is the combined assault stratagem (which requires you to take ravenwing troops (however Sammael is good enough, as he has the RAVENWING keyword), the other is combat squad the DWK group of 10 and put them into a LR Redeemer. The Redeemer has some pretty nasty tricks up it's sleeve if you get it in close combat. You could substitute the LR Redeemer for the Stormraven, but it's been my understanding that 8th edition flyers are pretty trash, unless you are running a Ravenwing list that has Dark Talons/Nephilims in there. As for what you COULD do, is take a terminator chaplain (instead of Asmodai) and drop them with the DWK then get that litany off. I personally run a librarian for Righteous Repugnance instead, as I find it's a combination of the aforementioned litanies, but your mileage might vary. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[G8Keeper]

Drop pods are turn one but I somehow have it in my head that Terminators cannot use them?

 

There's a few things you can do to help your charge:

 

1. Combined Assault stratagem - Probably the strongest option, requires minimum turn 2 and Ravenwing bike. 6" charge makes this one of the best ways to get a unit into combat from deep strike in the game.
2. Transports - Land Raiders, you'll need to take more than one these days as they tend to just die on turn 1 or 2.
3. Normal movement - This is often overlooked and can be effective especially if you're facing a fast enemy combat army.  Probably requires a central deployment of your Terminators.
4. Re-rolls - More of additional point to a main one, you have the good old re-roll one dice stratagem and the Master of Manoeuvre warlord trait. Consider whether you need to re-roll one or both dice as it may be mathematically better to spend the CP and just re-roll one.

That's quick off the top of my head.

[Skywrath]

Drop pods are turn one but I somehow have it in my head that Terminators cannot use them?

 

You are correct. 

[Angel of Solitude]

Don’t forget Stormravens...can even bring a Dreadnought along with you for extra punch!

 

In all seriousness, vehicles such as Stormravens and Land Raiders are in my opinion inefficient for their points cost. With both, you’re paying for both transport capacity and a weapons platform. If you want to maximise the likelihood of your Land Raider surviving, then you probably want to pop off smoke launchers instead of firing first turn; combine with a Darkshroud, and your Land Raider is now -2 to hit. But then you don’t get to fire those expensive weapons you have also paid for...

 

Furthermore, if you don’t get first turn, then you don’t get the benefit of smoke launchers.

 

Finally for Land Raiders, the range leaves a lot to be desired , which is problematic if you find yourself up against a gunline army. You get 12” movement first turn, then 3”+5”+2d6” charge on turn 2. 30” max theoretical range (assume no advance turn 1), but doesn’t take into account any positioning you have to do in deployment to protect your land raider.

 

Stormravens have much better range, have a natural -1 to hit, but are T7 - meaning that bolters wound on a 5+. I think they’re even more expensive than a Land Raider, and so you’d rather use them as a back line fire support than a front line transport.

 

So all in all...teleport is currently the optimal deployment method for Deathwing,

[G8Keeper]

A really niche transport option is the Caestus Assault Ram. I can't remember it's points off the top of my head but I would guess comparable to a Storm Raven. The pluses are it can carry 10 terminators and I believe is toughness 8. The melta array isn't too shabby either.

[Gederas]

A really niche transport option is the Caestus Assault Ram. I can't remember it's points off the top of my head but I would guess comparable to a Storm Raven. The pluses are it can carry 10 terminators and I believe is toughness 8. The melta array isn't too shabby either.

The Caestus is 300 points (250 base, 50 for the Magna Melta)

 

[ChaplainNemiel]

I've been asking the same questions and it seems like the consensus is:

 

- DW knights are one of our best units currently and seem to be present in even the most RW heavy lists!

- DW knights are most effectively used in reserve supported by a character with the master of maneuver trait to deep strike. 

 

Other additions are a Librarian casting righteous repugnance, Belial (or any captain for re-rolls), Chaplains - especially Asmodai for that +1 attack. But how on earth do we effectively get Asmodai close enough? It's a shame that litanies are not casted during the psychic phase which would really help us get that 9 inch charge down to a 7 + with a possible MoM re-roll! 

 

The other option I think would be the combined assault using RW bikes - Sammy on corvex included to drop teleport homers. 

That said, we still have a risk of trying to zoom up the RW group fast enough to do this without getting shot to pieces. Assuming a DarkShroud is also being used here, if it's still alive that might be a handy tool to support your DW units further. 

[G8Keeper]

So far I've had no problems with combined assault.  I hide a RW Apothecary behind Infiltrators to get him up the board and into poisition for a turn 2 deep strike in a pretty huge potential area.

[Skywrath]

But how on earth do we effectively get Asmodai close enough? 

 

That is why the Interrogator-Chaplain in terminator armor remains a solid option for that! Pop Mantra of Strength as they deep-strike in, and off their go. I'd also recommend if you are going down that route, to equip the IC with something that hits hard - such as a thunder-hammer.

[Berzul]

Youd have to cast it the following turn. Cant recite a litany on a turn in which you deepstrike

[eternal_warrior12]

Best luck I’ve had is deepstrike turn 2. Warlord Ancient with master of maneuver warlord trait. Giving free re rolls to charge distances makes sure at least a couple of my terminator squads get in.

[G8Keeper]

Don't forget the lowly jump pack equipped Interrogator Chaplain deployed on the table from the start.  He can get up the table fairly quickly and have his litany already active at the start of turn 2.  I'd also go and give him a Thunder Hammer as you can do some crazy stuff with all the buffs going these days.

[Get Thokt]

Asmodai does give a nice buff of +1 attack though you'll need to make a short conga line of Knights from his deepstriking position to keep that buff. Bring an Interrogator Chaplain w/ Jump Pack so Knights get something turn 2. Hopefully the defensive strats helps keep the Knights alive for another turn to then get litanies off Asmodai.

 

I've been thinking of running 2 units of 5 Knights since 5 would probably kill anything that isn't a horde unit. Using the Ravenwing Apothecary and Black Knights can almost certainly give you another turn (turn 3) to drop another 5 Knights in a dangerous position.

 

A slightly off-topic question, but do most people run a unit of 10? What's the game plan after they've rinsed a unit in CC?

[G8Keeper]

Asmodai does give a nice buff of +1 attack though you'll need to make a short conga line of Knights from his deepstriking position to keep that buff. Bring an Interrogator Chaplain w/ Jump Pack so Knights get something turn 2. Hopefully the defensive strats helps keep the Knights alive for another turn to then get litanies off Asmodai.

 

I've been thinking of running 2 units of 5 Knights since 5 would probably kill anything that isn't a horde unit. Using the Ravenwing Apothecary and Black Knights can almost certainly give you another turn (turn 3) to drop another 5 Knights in a dangerous position.

 

A slightly off-topic question, but do most people run a unit of 10? What's the game plan after they've rinsed a unit in CC?

 

Max I've gone is 8.  They survived a full turn getting charged by a unit of GSC Neophyte Hybrids (if that's what they're called) with the 6 rocksaws.  This was being within 6" of the Pennant of Remembrance for the 5++ too. Think I lost 2 or 3 guys that round.  Wiped them out in return and then rescued my Librarian who was in combat with a Patriarch, killing it too.  With the defensive stratagems and the relic banner they do absolute carnage and survive most stuff an enemy throws at them.  Remember, the banner also keeps it's +1 attack.  I tend to keep a Librarian with Righteous Repugnance nearby for absolute hilarity but it's not a definite shoe in, what with the +1 to hit stratagem.

 

With regards to 2 squads there are a couple of issues.  You've said they are coming down on different turns which is good as you can probably concentrate the stratagems on the one that's at full strength, but if you ever get in that spot where you need both to hit something big you're going to be missing out on a lot of protection on a whole unit. I've ran quite a few 5 man units and pretty much always found I needed that extra couple of bodies as you often miss out on attacking with 1 or 2 due to conga lines and can absorb a couple of casualties.

 

Deathwing Knights have a huge psychological affect on an opponents gameplay, they simply have to be dealt with and often manage to get a charge off before they can be.  I've chased characters out of bubble positions and had massive portions of armies re-allocated to tie them up which for their points cost, is amazing.

[Berzul]

Would you say a squad of 5, with the ancient and librarian, is good enough for that? Or would you recommend one to try and go to 10 knights?

[G8Keeper]

Would you say a squad of 5, with the ancient and librarian, is good enough for that? Or would you recommend one to try and go to 10 knights?

 

If you're popping an Ancient and a Libby with them I'd say you've already committed a significant investment in points so you need to go 6 or 7 man squad.  I don't think there's a need for 10 unless maybe competitive 2000pts.

[Skywrath]

 

Would you say a squad of 5, with the ancient and librarian, is good enough for that? Or would you recommend one to try and go to 10 knights?

 

If you're popping an Ancient and a Libby with them I'd say you've already committed a significant investment in points so you need to go 6 or 7 man squad.  I don't think there's a need for 10 unless maybe competitive 2000pts.

 

 

See, with this statement I disagree heavily. All my 1750 lists (at least ones that have DWK) have at least 8 in them, with the ancient and the librarian. That usually costs me about 400-500 points roughly, which in a point list of that size is not too bad by my reckoning. My mono-deathwing list has 15 of them for maximum effect. Going off personal experience, dealing with 5 DWK (from the perspective of an opponent) even with the PA strategems not that difficult. Annoying? Definitely. A tank could deal with them easily enough on a charge, and that's not even mentioning the other army factions that perform better than us on the table-top.

 

If you are planning on running DWKs in your list, I would strongly argue for at least 8, otherwise get rid of them entirely. 5 is nowhere near enough. Unless you are referring to having a DWK component in a ravenwing list (instead of a tri-wing or a double-wing list) then by all means, fine, but even then for the amount of points you are sinking into them, 5 is nowhere near enough damage. You could very well sink those points into having a ravenwing champion/apothecary/black knight squad or even a contemptor-mortis dreadnought. In this case, it's a classic example of go big or go home. 

 

Disclaimer: This is from a competitive perspective, not a casual one.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Angel of Solitude]

My experience is that a squad of 6, accompanied by an ancient and Libby, is optimal. I’ve ran a squad of 7, and each time it overkilled, which to me is wasted points.

 

5 DWK in combat with all the buffs is enough to take out most targets, but a 6th DWK will help you daisy chain back to your Ancient should they fail the charge.

 

A squad of 10 is just extreme overkill for a single target, and then inefficient thereafter - you’re relatively immobile after you deepstrike, so you wouldn’t get very good target saturation. If you want some tough terminators to sit and hold an objective, then a regular DW squad would likely be a better solution.

[G8Keeper]

I think the difference between my own and Skywrath's advice is one of casual and competitive play. It really does depend on your regular play setting (probably not competitive at the moment) and your meta.

[Skywrath]

Pretty much what G8Keeper said - +1 to that comment.

 

+redacted this statement about the caestus assault ram as it's been mentioned already+

Edited April 24, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Get Thokt]

So looking more to the competitive aspect.

 

How do we determine the effectiveness of the unit size? I assume we are looking at Imperial Knights as an example.

 

The math when combating an Imperial Knight, 8 would be the best amount to take. 7 getting into combat and one staying in a litany buff (from Int Chaplain), an Ancient/Asmodai for an extra attack, and Talonmaster to re-roll wound rolls of 1. Plus using the strat to get +1 hit roll we have:

 

Each regular Knight dishing out 5 attacks and hitting on 2s. 35 attacks in total and 29 successful hits.

 

Against a T8 Knight and re-rolling 1s we get 16 successful wounds.

 

AP-2 on turn 2 gives the Imperial Knight at 5+ save. 10 go through with 30 damage total.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Get Thokt

[G8Keeper]

I'd go for the Ancient in that situation (I like to give him a thunder hammer & storm shield) with the 5++ relic to help mitigate the inevitable explosion.

[Skywrath]

I'd go for the Ancient in that situation (I like to give him a thunder hammer & storm shield) with the 5++ relic to help mitigate the inevitable explosion.

 

Brother, it is my understanding that the explosion deals mortal wounds, and the PoR relic doesn't negate mortal wounds. I was on the receiving end of that in the last game I had, before Nurgle's plague struck. Under no circumstances do you want a DWK to charge an imperial knight, ESPECIALLY if it's a Castellan (as he rolls two dice and the result must equal 6 for him to blow up). Also going through the Knight variants, all of them deal mortal wounds, compounding my previous statement. You would want to finish that knight off with range, but any Imperial Knight player worth a damn would be picking those off.

 

Unless there is some under-handed way to deal with mortal wounds as a DWK that I'm not aware about?

 

EDIT: Apparently there was a similar discussion a few days ago that I remarked upon that occurence as well, check the spoiler.

 

Personal experience speaking, but never ever charge an Imperial Knight with your Deathwing Knights. No amount of defensive stratagems will work when they explode. The Knight Castellan has 2d6 to their explosion roll, which is a sure bet it will go off. Of course in that game, the opponent at first didn't get the roll required for it to go off (he rolled 2 1's,s) but then it went off anyway after he rerolled the result.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[G8Keeper]

The wording is:

 

"When a friendly Deathwing Infantry model within 6" of a model with this relic would lose a wound, roll one D6; on a 5+ that wound is not lost."

 

Hence includes mortal wounds

Edited April 25, 2020 by G8Keeper