Options to get Deathwing into Combat.

[Skywrath]

The wording is:

 

"When a friendly Deathwing Infantry model within 6" of a model with this relic would lose a wound, roll one D6; on a 5+ that wound is not lost."

 

Hence includes mortal wounds .

 

Edit: this is the same as things like disgustingly resilient which also negate mortal wounds.

 

Sorry, but if it did work on mortal wounds, it would say so. Not to mention, in that game against a SW player I had a while back, the GW employee specifically said the pennant doesn't work on mortal wounds. 

[G8Keeper]

My interpretation comes from the wording of disgustingly resilient having more or less the same wording (just specifies it for a model rather than models within 6") and the FAQ question for it confirming it works on mortal wounds. Thus, as with saves such as the Black Heart cabal, this works against mortal wounds.

[Skywrath]

My interpretation comes from the wording of disgustingly resilient having more or less the same wording (just specifies it for a model rather than models within 6") and the FAQ question for it confirming it works on mortal wounds. Thus, as with saves such as the Black Heart cabal, this works against mortal wounds.

 

Can you link me to that question in the FAQ? I would personally love to shove that question up in the GW employee's face, if you are right. 

Reason I am particularly aggressive in that last bit of the sentence, it's wouldn't be his first time misleading me with information, and that cost me my game against an Imperial Knight player because of that ruling.  

Edited April 25, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[G8Keeper]

Having trouble finding it now. I had assumed it was in the death guard book. Maybe not hmm.

 

Edit: got it rulebook update 1.1 page 4.

 

"Q: Can abilities such as Disgustingly Resilient be used to ignore wounds if they were inflicted by mortal wounds? A: Yes."

Edited April 25, 2020 by G8Keeper

[Skywrath]

Yes, but that's for disgustingly resilient which is an in-built mechanic, same with FnP, while the pennant is a relic, and a option at that. It's not mentioned as a FnP, it just has a similar effect. Even with all this, I'm not still not convinced.

 

Also, why would a GW employee specifically take the time to point a generic mechanic out (by your own admission) that somehow doesn't work for us in the way it's intended, and there be no mention about mortal wounds on the datasheet? The other thing worth mentioning, does it seem somewhat "broken (in a good way)" that you are paying 150 points for a FnP aura (even though it's for deathwing)? Seems like a steal to me. Even in a relative power (not power levels you are thinking of) to points, you are essentially giving a (in my mind) a worse 5+ invuln save for a minimal amount of points. Maybe I'm wrong, but none of this adds up in my mind.

 

I think I'll put this question up on the rules forum - apologies if you are right on this.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[G8Keeper]

It's limiting factor is that is affects models within 6" not units, so usually assuming you fail the 9" charge with the ancient, you will be tanking all of those saves on one model. I think it's pretty well established on the game now that rules like this apply to mortal wounds. The wording aside from who it's applies to is pretty identical to disgustingly resilient and the question asked in the FAQ mentions "abilities such as disgustingly resilient" which in my mind includes these.

 

The staff member you refer to did not write the rules and I would not take what they say as gospel, they're human like you and me and are interpreting it their own way. Now, if he's a TO and he's made a ruling, that's different, it's his tournament so his word is final.

[Skywrath]

It's limiting factor is that is affects models within 6" not units, so usually assuming you fail the 9" charge with the ancient, you will be tanking all of those saves on one model. I think it's pretty well established on the game now that rules like this apply to mortal wounds. The wording aside from who it's applies to is pretty identical to disgustingly resilient and the question asked in the FAQ mentions "abilities such as disgustingly resilient" which in my mind includes these.

 

The staff member you refer to did not write the rules and I would not take what they say as gospel, they're human like you and me and are interpreting it their own way. Now, if he's a TO and he's made a ruling, that's different, it's his tournament so his word is final.

 

As a matter of fact he is a TO and was going to be in the upcoming tournament if Nurgle's Plague didn't strike. While the game itself wasn't a tournament game, we were playing with tournament-like rules, which gives his word a certain amount of weight. Usually I'm extremely sceptical (and short) with people that tell me "because it's so" (without a logical reason), but due to the overly conservative nature of my local store, I wouldn't be surprised if he was reading it intentionally like that. In other words, I'm willing to accept you are right, but there are still a few question marks floating around in my head - hence I directed that query to the rules forum, see what they think. Also apologies for unintentionally derailing the thread.

 

EDIT: Apologies for the bout of stupidity I wrote, it appears the pennant of remembrance does work on mortal wounds. Looks like me and the GW employee are going to have a long, soul-searching chat after all this is over. My apologies.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[ChaplainNemiel]

this is great news if the pennant of remembrance does in fact work against mortal wounds!

Great discussion brothers. Hopefully we can unlock some additional strategies to make the most out of our DW units, not just the knights!

[Get Thokt]

Also to add, Litany of faith also gives us a 5+++, though this one specifically mentions on the conditions of mortal wounds

[Skywrath]

Another idea I had is to forego the use of MoM, use Combined Assault, and the chaplains charge litany (litany of hate, I think it's called?). Now the DWK only need a 4 to get up-close and personal with your quarry. Bear in mind, 4 with combined stratagem, 6 for the standard deep strike.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Berzul]

Another idea I had is to forego the use of MoM, use Combined Assault, and the chaplains charge litany (litany of hate, I think it's called?). Now the DWK only need a 4 to get up-close and personal with your quarry. Bear in mind, 4 with combined stratagem, 6 for the standard deep strike.

Yeah but, how do you activate the litany? Cant be by deepstriking a Chaplain the same turn.

 

MoM gives you the asvantage that the Ancient who has it can ALSO make the charge more often. Since you cannot use the stratagem of combined assaumt on both the ancient and the knights, relying on just that would be a serious problem.

[Skywrath]

 

Another idea I had is to forego the use of MoM, use Combined Assault, and the chaplains charge litany (litany of hate, I think it's called?). Now the DWK only need a 4 to get up-close and personal with your quarry. Bear in mind, 4 with combined stratagem, 6 for the standard deep strike.

Yeah but, how do you activate the litany? Cant be by deepstriking a Chaplain the same turn.

 

MoM gives you the asvantage that the Ancient who has it can ALSO make the charge more often. Since you cannot use the stratagem of combined assaumt on both the ancient and the knights, relying on just that would be a serious problem.

 

 

 

If you properly read my previous PM to you, you would know, brother ;p

 

In short, make sure the chaplain is already there, then T2 deep-strike the terminators in, then pop that litany. For maximum effect, load the chaplain up (let's assume it's asmodai) in a vehicle of your choice, advance the vehicle, deploy asmodai (maybe some CP to keep him alive) then get combined assault off, next turn. Granted I am working on more elegant solutions. That being said, not having MoM, is not the end of the world, especially with that synergy I showed you, 2CP for 2 units (yes, you heard me right) is a fair trade to me, especially if you have have a warlord with a selection of Brilliant Strategist. Also rolling a 6+ on 2D6 should be a fairly easy number to roll, and a 4 on a 2D6 even easier (assuming the litany works). That, and if you run the Litany of Hate (the charge litany), you can consolidate up to 6", meaning having MoM at that point in time is practically worthless.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Berzul]

I know of the list you speak of, but it is not a part of your setup in this thread, so I cannot presume this is the way you plan on ensuring that a chaplain is near range to give off the litany.

 

Now, with this I have already indirectly mentioned your strategy, so lets now presume it common knowledge.

 

If you transport a chaplain into range, then yeah, it could work. I still prefer MoM, simply because I can make SURE my WL is in range, and I do not depend on the terrain, board configuration, or enemy positioning, to allow my transport to make it into range. Besides, the transport is a points sink in most scenarios. You save points with the Ancient with MoM as a delivery system for the boost in charges, while you spend more with the Chaplain and the Transport, points-wise.

 

Also, MoM always works. It requires no roll for it to come into effect, unlike the litany, which can fail some times. Given that we are talking about the most critical part of your offensive strategy, leaving a room for error makes me feel uncomfortable. I'd rather go for Combined Assault for a 6" charge with rerrolls, than for a 6" charge that MIGHT become a 4", if I can manage to get the chaplain close enough on time, and get off the litany first try.

[Skywrath]

I know of the list you speak of, but it is not a part of your setup in this thread, so I cannot presume this is the way you plan on ensuring that a chaplain is near range to give off the litany.

 

Now, with this I have already indirectly mentioned your strategy, so lets now presume it common knowledge.

 

Not sure why you had to state that, but yeah, sure.

 

If you transport a chaplain into range, then yeah, it could work. I still prefer MoM, simply because I can make SURE my WL is in range, and I do not depend on the terrain, board configuration, or enemy positioning, to allow my transport to make it into range. Besides, the transport is a points sink in most scenarios. You save points with the Ancient with MoM as a delivery system for the boost in charges, while you spend more with the Chaplain and the Transport, points-wise.

 

Good, because that is what we are assuming. And who said anything about terrain, board configuration or enemy positioning to allow the transport to be into range? None of that matters come T2. As for the transport being a point sink in most scenarios - so would you apply that kind of logic to a repulsor executioner or a land raider? Because in my mind, both of those selections surely pull their weight at the very least. Another thing, why would you save points with Ancient and MoM, when the pennant or the trait cost nothing? I was merely proposing another way to not use the MoM so that another relic could be used on a more interesting character.

 

Also, MoM always works. It requires no roll for it to come into effect, unlike the litany, which can fail some times. Given that we are talking about the most critical part of your offensive strategy, leaving a room for error makes me feel uncomfortable. I'd rather go for Combined Assault for a 6" charge with rerrolls, than for a 6" charge that MIGHT become a 4", if I can manage to get the chaplain close enough on time, and get off the litany first try.

 

Always is a bit rich, there is still a chance you can reroll a charge roll of 1-4 and fail - same as that litany (in terms of rerolling). But you do realise hitting a 6 on a 2d6 die is roughly 50% of the time right? And if you were to take the rule that allows you to engage models 1" away from you (so effectively a roll of 5) that is closer to 60% of the time. Notice how those odds look good even without the MoM trait? I can understand having that extra security, however, even without it, the odds are still in our favour, as well as being much better than a 9" roll. Now I'm not saying everyone drop MoM and go ham with combined assault, far from it. I'm just saying that statistically 6" is enough, especially if you include the chaplain with that litany, which brings to score to about 70ish percent.

 

In red.

 

EDIT: In light of TheWeepingAngel's math skills, disregard my numerical "calculations". His calculations are more correct.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Berzul]

Well, yeah.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Berzul

[Wrath of Bruinen]

You'll all have to forgive me for my terrible maths skills, but I think MoM and the litany work out roughly the same for a unit that has dropped 6" away from Combined Assault.

 

Baseline odds of making a 6" charge is 72.2%

 

Odds of making a 4" charge (litany): 91.7%

Odds of rolling lower than a 6 twice (i.e. failing to get a 6+, then failing again - MoM): 7.7% So, odds of getting 6" charge with a reroll is 92.3%.

 

Conclusion (if my maths is right): MoM is ever so slightly more reliable, and doesn't need the 3+ to go off in the first place. 

 

Let's then layer that up to the 9" charges for deep strikers who couldn't use combined assault (e.g. supporting characters).

 

Baseline odds of 9" charge: 27.8%

Odds of a 7" charge (litany): 58.3%

Odds of failing 9" with a reroll: 52.1% (i.e. odds of success 47.9)

 

 

So, based on that, obviously if you can take both that's ideal. But if you could only pick one, it depends on your list. If you're just planning on running, say, a DWK unit who will Combined Assault and a supporting Ancient, MoM is a better choice. If you were planning on taking a unit to Combined Assault, plus a few supporting characters (say, Ancient, Champ, and another unit of deathwing), you get more mileage from the litany overall. BUT, Berzul makes a good point about needing the 3+ for the litany to go off in the first place, plus the challenges of getting the chaplain into position in the first place.

[Berzul]

Which is why I say MoM "always works". It needs no activation. You can always use it, and you can rely on it. Unlike the litany.

[G8Keeper]

All that re: charge rolls being said; in practice I've never failed a 6" combined assault charge and you can always just use a CP re-roll for one dice if you do.

 

EDIT:

 

Further to this, if you have 2 units of DW dropping down you can utilise both approaches to increase the odds of both getting into combat.  1 uses Combined Assault and the CP re-roll if needed, the other uses the Litany (with some planning regarding to your Chaplain's movement in previous turns) and MoM.

Edited April 27, 2020 by G8Keeper