Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[Scribe]

 

`

I thought Custodes had SuperCharisma and SuperIntimidation traits that eclipse the Space Marines' own charisma that they can project on normal humans? Shouldn't the Primaris have been compelled/enthralled by the Custode's voice/tone to immediately obey?

 

 

This isnt a thing.

[mc warhammer]

i'll try and read this story later today, but i have some open questions:

 

* what are some other examples of the custodes approach to diplomacy?

* are all custodes consistent?

* what is the custodes "philosophy" when it comes to chaos and their orders not being immediately complied with? do we have details on that?

* what is the imperial 40k understanding of diplomacy?

 

 

and not defending this story in any way shape or form, but i'm certain history is filled with examples of hyper intelligent people either reacting out of extreme prejudice or dogma or against their self interest in a way that might seem illogical to a 21st century western society observer.

Edited April 29, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

What I don't understand about the backlash this story is getting is that this a setting where whole WORLDS are condemned to death, where countless millions are declared heretic and genocided, and this is a situation so much smaller, and it really seemed to touch a nerve with some folks.  There's that Stalin quote: a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.  That really seems apt to the discussion going on here.

 

I'll reiterate that I actually really like the story, and thought it was a nice corrective to the generally overly heroic tone set by a lot of recent lore; the roots of 40k are deeply satirical and cutting, and the core of the narrative is that dogma and religious fervor won out over the Emperor's wish to create an essentially secular empire.  Having a Custodes, one of the Emperors sons, act in such a viscerally horrific way that violates our own sense of morality and fairness is an excellent depiction that I think re-centers the warped morality at the heart of the Imperium.  It also mirrors the ruthless prosecution of the Emperor himself, who was not above similar scourings of legions when they went "astray" of his wishes.  

 

We can all disagree about how this whole scene played out and how it reflects on what we think these characters are like or should be like, but I was actually relieved to see something like this put out by GW, because I see the whole setting as deeply fascistic, and I feel like that can get glossed over a bit too much sometimes.  

[Ishagu]

In every setting there are exceptions. The Custodes are one such exception - a faction within the Imperium that isn't as ignorant, superstitious or illogical as is the norm.

 

Apparently not anymore lol

[Scribe]

In every setting there are exceptions. The Custodes are one such exception - a faction within the Imperium that isn't as ignorant, superstitious or illogical as is the norm.

 

Apparently not anymore lol

 

Their actions were logical, to them.

 

Disobedience, is treason.

 

EDIT: Further, they were also internally consistent to the setting, and the Imperium.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Scribe

[Shinros]

Nothing wrong with the premise of the story it's how they got there to force conflict. Reading it, to me it felt like the writer forced the idiot ball into the hands of the characters. A story like this needs to be longer so it can properly be set up. So far the best PA storywise has been the Greater Good. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Shinros

[Ishagu]

Would Guilliman have agreed?

[Tyriks]

To be honest, I'm not sure why Custodes being trained diplomats keeps coming up.  Giving an order to a subordinate is not a situation that being a trained diplomat comes into play.  

 

Also, to say that stupid governments don't survive either ignores huge swathes of world history or is using a very specific and limited definition of stupidity.  The Roman Empire made worse decisions than this on a much greater scale repeatedly, and survived for centuries while doing so on a regular basis, as have others.

 

The failure of Tyvar in this story is closed-mindedness, not stupidity or superstition or a lack of diplomacy.  He assumes Astartes will always put their brotherhood ahead of the Emperor.  We know this is not true but it is reasonable to think someone inside the situation might think that.  Tyvar acts perfectly reasonably in the situation if you agree with his flawed assessment.

[mc warhammer]

what yardstick are we measuring "not illogical"?

 

are we comparing it to our current standards? logic looks different across cultures and time periods.

 

there might be something interesting to explore here with custodes in particular? even if we equate 30k custodes "logic" with our current western sensibilities- what does 10, 000 years of inactivity, walking around a continent sized palace guarding a mothball stinking corpse with nothing to distract you from your PTSD except occasionally rubbing some lemon juice into the throne - what does that do to your super genius mental state?

 

agoraphobia? out of touch? paranoia? straight up malfunction?

 

i will say though, now that i've read the story, it doesn't hint at or set up any of that. we're left to infer from our own personal understandings of the universe.

 

the trick here may be the specifics of what went down in the moments before the text starts. the author either brilliantly started it in media res to leave it to us to imagine what ramped things to this extreme state or cheated the audience by not addressing it, depending on your point of view.

[b1soul]

@ Scribe

 

"They are more cerebral and pragmatic.

 

They are also the voice and will of the Emperor.

 

'Disagreement is treason.'

 

That's it."

 

This doesn't address how Tyvar's decision to arrest the Greyshields is nonsensical.

 

It only justifies his decision to use lethal force after the Greyshields fault to immediately comply.

 

Tyvar could have demanded that the Greyshields take off their pants and bend over. Does being the Voice of the Emperor make that demand somehow sensible?

[Donkey Kong]

So, aside from the character's actions, I don't understand the premise of the story. Why are Custodians and Sisters of Silence delivering Primaris Space Marine reinforcements to chapters in the first place?

[mc warhammer]

So, aside from the character's actions, I don't understand the premise of the story. Why are Custodians and Sisters of Silence delivering Primaris Space Marine reinforcements to chapters in the first place?

standard torchbearer task force; usually made up of sisters and custodes delivering the gift of primaris down the chapter chimney. seems tyvar had been drawing up a list of who's naughty and nice

Edited April 29, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Phoebus]

They are more cerebral and pragmatic.

 

They are also the voice and will of the Emperor.

 

'Disagreement is treason.'

 

That's it.

It’s a bit more nuanced than that.

 

I don’t think anyone is proposing a Custodian would (or should, for that matter) tolerate disobedience. I think quite a few people are wondering if the ultimatum presented to the Greyshields in this story was apropos of a cerebral, pragmatic (not to mention hyper-intelligent) individual.

 

 

In this regard, the Custodians are indeed, Intelligent, Rational, and Nuanced beings...... as long as you consider that the choices they do serves the Emperor. So, for the case of the Short Story, to order the Primaris Astartes to surrender themselves to the Custodians was a nuanced choice, and since they refused, it was a rational choice to execute them. Also, the Custodian display Intelligence when he first offered the Primaris to surrender, and then by solving the problem he certainly foresaw and which inevitably happened.

Was the choice in question really a nuanced one, though? Was the Custodian ordering the Greyshields to surrender while also announcing to them that they were already considered guilty the best way to demonstrate his intelligence?

 

I'd argue that brand of stupidity is a necessary conceit of the setting.

 

A thousand warriors cannot take a world by facerushing the enemy, and an Imperium that relies on dreams as a means of communication cannot sustain an interstellar empire. 

 

Same goes for chainswords, battleships shaped like nautical craft (not even submarines), titans, vellum as paper, slaves loading munitions, etc. The Imperium would disintegrate under any leadership.

I’d argue that the brand in question is an ideology of intolerant and uncompromising fanaticism that demands ignorance and obedience because it is ultimately founded on a fear of forces that are inimical to humanity. I’d also argue that the various factions of the Imperium of Man subscribe to said ideology to varying degrees. Finally, I’d argue that there’s a difference between certain stylistic concepts requiring the reader to accept that technology in 29,000 years will make them possible and an author requiring the reader to accept a rash ultimatum as the best course of action for the character in question.

 

Or, in other words, Astropathic communication isn’t reliable enough to hold together a galactic empire of a million worlds, but that’s not proof of the Imperium being a stupid regime. It’s just a consequence of malicious gods that hunger for human suffering ensuring that interstellar telepathy only works so well.

 

I am very happy that this story exist. They believin in a machine god and not in science any more. Why the hell they should be dealing not this way in war. 

Do the Custodians believe in the Machine God? I’d argue they don’t. Point of fact, I’d argue such a belief would be absolutely contrary to their ethos and indoctrination.

 

What I don't understand about the backlash this story is getting is that this a setting where whole WORLDS are condemned to death, where countless millions are declared heretic and genocided, and this is a situation so much smaller, and it really seemed to touch a nerve with some folks.  There's that Stalin quote: a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.  That really seems apt to the discussion going on here.

 

We can all disagree about how this whole scene played out and how it reflects on what we think these characters are like or should be like, but I was actually relieved to see something like this put out by GW, because I see the whole setting as deeply fascistic, and I feel like that can get glossed over a bit too much sometimes.  

Part of the tragedy that is central to this setting is that while the Emperor was ruthlessly pragmatic, he was working toward an end — and it wasn’t the status quo of the 42nd Millennium. It has been qualified, more than once, by those closest to the Emperor (or, at any rate, those with enough insight to comprehend enough of what he was doing) that his dream was effectively destroyed by the Heresy. The powers that came to rule over the Imperium after the Emperor’s entombment in the Golden Throne nonetheless celebrated what it was up until Abaddon finally destroyed Cadia. I struggle to think of an instance where a Custodian felt the same way.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure why Custodes being trained diplomats keeps coming up.  Giving an order to a subordinate is not a situation that being a trained diplomat comes into play.  

 

The failure of Tyvar in this story is closed-mindedness, not stupidity or superstition or a lack of diplomacy.  He assumes Astartes will always put their brotherhood ahead of the Emperor.  We know this is not true but it is reasonable to think someone inside the situation might think that.  Tyvar acts perfectly reasonably in the situation if you agree with his flawed assessment.

People bring up the fact that Custodians are trained diplomats because that skill set reinforces the fact that they are meant to be cerebral, nuanced, pragmatic beings. Again, it’s not a question of a Custodian negotiating after being disobeyed; it’s about the Custodian having the intelligence to recognize that presenting a certain ultimatum may very well result in an undesired outcome, and being rational enough to take a better course of action.

 

Beyond that, Tyvar’s assumptions about how Astartes will behave can be close-minded, and his decision to confront them as he did can be rash and lacking intelligence. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Roomsky]

 

 

I'd argue that brand of stupidity is a necessary conceit of the setting.

 

A thousand warriors cannot take a world by facerushing the enemy, and an Imperium that relies on dreams as a means of communication cannot sustain an interstellar empire. 

 

Same goes for chainswords, battleships shaped like nautical craft (not even submarines), titans, vellum as paper, slaves loading munitions, etc. The Imperium would disintegrate under any leadership.

I’d argue that the brand in question is an ideology of intolerant and uncompromising fanaticism that demands ignorance and obedience because it is ultimately founded on a fear of forces that are inimical to humanity. I’d also argue that the various factions of the Imperium of Man subscribe to said ideology to varying degrees. Finally, I’d argue that there’s a difference between certain stylistic concepts requiring the reader to accept that technology in 29,000 years will make them possible and an author requiring the reader to accept a rash ultimatum as the best course of action for the character in question.

 

Or, in other words, Astropathic communication isn’t reliable enough to hold together a galactic empire of a million worlds, but that’s not proof of the Imperium being a stupid regime. It’s just a consequence of malicious gods that hunger for human suffering ensuring that interstellar telepathy only works so well.

 

Sure, but my point is "people can't be that stupid or intolerant, the Imperium wouldn't survive" doesn't hold water, because there's no way the Imperium survives anywhere but in a setting that demands it. The impossibility of an empire of malicious idiots is just as impossible as an empire that communicates with dreams. The necessity of it is immaterial. 

[b1soul]

Even accepting that the Custodes have absolute authourity over the Greyshields, both sides would be in the "wrong" so to speak.

 

The Greyshields' failure to comply immediately could be deemed insubordination

 

Tyvar's decision to arrest Greyshields having nothing to do with the Drakes' actions would be out-of-character at best and a long-term detriment to the Throne at worst

Edited April 29, 2020 by b1soul

[Scribe]

Would Guilliman have agreed?

1. To what?

2. Who cares?

 

Are we going to pretend that he sets the moral compass for a realm steeped in 10K years of ignorance, hate, and madness?

 

LOL

 

Look at 40k, just really LOOK and internalize it.

 

There's nothing outlandish with this story.

 

Plenty of Imperium fans simply won't accept the reality of their faction being just like the rest of them.

[Marshal Rohr]

Even in the most idiotic and totalitarian regimes they wouldn’t do this. You have a hundred new guys fresh from boot camp. You put them on a train to some front line somewhere watched over by political officers. You get to the frontline and find out the battalion they were going to replace casualties in refused to go over the top or something and we’re executed/gulaged. They wouldn’t shoot the replacements too. They’d just send them to another battalion/regiment/division/etc. The whole thing about geneseed doesn’t follow either, because if the Brazen Drakes were Ultramarines successor are the Custodes going to kill half the space marines in the universe? Why would the Grayshields even care this chapter had been turned traitor and want to help? They don’t know them. They could just go to a new chapter. Edited April 29, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[b1soul]

Heresy isn't based on geneseed. Every Loyalist geneline has renegades.

 

The strongest argument I can think of is if the Drakes' heresy stemmed from chapter indoctrination and the Greyshields had already been steeped in said indoctrination, but this is me filling in the blanks of a poorly written story

[Robbienw]

I think the Custodian also judged them by their reaction, in that Gerion didn't believe that the Brazen Drakes had turned and wanted to go and aid them.  This was the wrong answer to give the Custodian.  They were clearly already emotionally invested in their chapter.  Perhaps they had already read their history, or had specific induction, or they had contact with non-primaris brazen drakes who were not on the planet.  They were judged accordingly.

 

Had they laid down their weapons and not shown loyalty to the chapter, they probably would have ended up being reasigned after a period of monitoring.  Perhaps with a mind wipe.

[Frater Antodeniel]

Even in the most idiotic and totalitarian regimes they wouldn’t do this. You have a hundred new guys fresh from boot camp. You put them on a train to some front line somewhere watched over by political officers. You get to the frontline and find out the battalion they were going to replace casualties in refused to go over the top or something and we’re executed/gulaged. They wouldn’t shoot the replacements too. They’d just send them to another battalion/regiment/division/etc. The whole thing about geneseed doesn’t follow either, because if the Brazen Drakes were Ultramarines successor are the Custodes going to kill half the space marines in the universe? Why would the Grayshields even care this chapter had been turned traitor and want to help? They don’t know them. They could just go to a new chapter.

 

Toc Toc, ever heard of the beautiful ideology that is "Communism" ? You know that ideology which was so Totalitarian and Idiotic that when individuals failed to comply to an order or were even simply suspected of sedition they AND their family or/and friends could be send to the Gulag, despite the fact that their family/friends most probably were innocent, thus cutting the Communist countries much needed labour forces.

 

Communism, the regim whose political officers could and did order the execution or the imprisonement of many soldiers, just because they had witnessed insubordination. (Yes, as idiotic as it seemed, it happened. But don't worry, the Communists aren't the only ones who did such a thing.)

 

You need to understand that the very fact to witness "insubordination" give birth in the mind of the witness to the fact that it can happen. In Communist countries, Soldiers were and are taught that insubordination and treasons do not exist, because they are taught that they are the most loyal, that their idealogy is the purer, and that the sanction would be so hard that no one would be foolish enough to rebel. So, imagine what happen when a group of such soldier must relieve a company that rebelled against the authority. In the mind of the political officer, the relief force is tainted by the simple knowledge that they can "exchange" and be taint by the other group, and to note that they are already tainted by the knowledge that rebellion can be a thing.

 

Well, in the end, it appears that the Custodians are the Imperium Ultimate Political Officers.^^

[Marshal Rohr]

Thank you for educating me on communism. Never heard of that before. I have now completely changed my view and definitely wasn’t aware of it.

[mc warhammer]

*totalitarian

 

fixed it

 

on the topic of this being a poorly written story, i can't really argue. the circumstance is a tricky sell, and i don't think the writing was up to the task.

[b1soul]

"I think the Custodian also judged them by their reaction"

 

Their reaction to a nonsensical demand by the Custodian. We are discussing the reasoning, or lack of reasoning, behind the initial demand.

 

You're talking about the Custodian's use of force.

 

The chain of events goes:

 

Custodian demand --> Greyshield reaction --> Custodian use of lethal force

Edited April 29, 2020 by b1soul

[Robbienw]

I dont think it was nonsensical.  I think he went in so strong to see their reaction under duress.  They reacted the wrong way by showing emotional attachment.  

[SpecialIssue]

I feel there are two main points that have got people upset.

 

1. That it isn't logical to waste these new forces that have absolutely no practical connection at all to the treasonous elements of their formation - a Custodes wouldn't do this because that is the rational thing to do, since it weakens the Emperor's realm. And Custodes are rational, still believing in the original tenets of the Emperor's Imperial Truth.

 

Against this, I hink there are rational in-universe positions for this decision to incarcerate the grey shields. Space Marine lineages/genealogies are extremely important to the Imperium for determining subsequent recruitment loyalties/propensity to revolt. Add to this the warp potency of symbols and associations - it is not out of the question for further corruption in otherwise innocuous objects and people who have a symbolic, metaphoric or even ironic relation to the original occurrence. Don't you think the Custodes would still take precautions (even without all the anti-Astartes bias recently injected into their organisational culture) and attempt to take the Astartes into custody for at least the moment to ascertain their purity in-depth or determine the facts on the ground? That all sounds rational to me. Then we have the Custodes being the Emperor's hand-crafted body guards and emissaries, so absolutely loyal that they mourned and recused themselves for 10,000 years from His own empire in order to guard a corpse. Hardly the most rational actions, but very fitting of their engineered personalities for absolute loyalty under any circumstance. So how should they act when another force refuses to submit to their commands?

 

Reaching this point, the Astartes' hesitancy to disarm and submit would doom him under any circumstance. Custodes loyalty is to the genetic level - they would not tolerate a failure to demonstrate loyalty when commanded to.

 

2. The Custodes was a 'dick' straight from the get-go, immediately calling the Astartes 'traitors', even though the intent at that point was still to disarm and capture them for judgement later; i.e. the story's dialogue is far from perfect. I'd personally imagine the Custodes would simply ask to take him into custody and surrender his weapon instead of immediately spitting bile.

 

So: if the Custodes had simply written being nicer ('diplomatic') when asking the first time for the grey shield to submit and lay down his weapons, would the story be more palatable to those against it, even though it would have ended in exactly the same way?

 

"I think the Custodian also judged them by their reaction"

Their reaction to a nonsensical demand by the Custodian. We are discussing the reasoning, or lack of reasoning, behind the initial demand.

 

This is a clear difference in culture in the Imperium - even the Emperor, who exhorted rationalism to all while He walked, still demanded absolute personal loyalty to Himself and His decisions on pain of death, no matter how inscrutable, obtuse or 'nonsensical' they were, and often gave no explanation to why these puzzling decisions were made. It was always loyalty first, above and over rationalism. The Custodes are the engineered product of that mindset. To them and the Emperor, even if the demands are nonsensical to you, we still own and command you absolutely. This is what unbreakable, absolute loyalty looks like and tbh, that is all the Emperor has ever demonstrably wanted from his subjects from the very first twinklings of this fictional universe.

 

Even if the Custodes was making an illogical demand (which under the circumstances/cultural atmosphere I don't think was unreasonable), it doesn't matter - you have no right to disobey.

Edited April 29, 2020 by SpecialIssue