Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[b1soul]

They didn't show "emotional attachment". They wanted to verify, then they pointed out their non-involvement in the supposed heresy. As Custodes typically don't blindly trust the word of the Inquisition, I don't see why proposing verification is heretical.

[Phoebus]

 

 

I'd argue that brand of stupidity is a necessary conceit of the setting.

 

A thousand warriors cannot take a world by facerushing the enemy, and an Imperium that relies on dreams as a means of communication cannot sustain an interstellar empire. 

 

Same goes for chainswords, battleships shaped like nautical craft (not even submarines), titans, vellum as paper, slaves loading munitions, etc. The Imperium would disintegrate under any leadership.

I’d argue that the brand in question is an ideology of intolerant and uncompromising fanaticism that demands ignorance and obedience because it is ultimately founded on a fear of forces that are inimical to humanity. I’d also argue that the various factions of the Imperium of Man subscribe to said ideology to varying degrees. Finally, I’d argue that there’s a difference between certain stylistic concepts requiring the reader to accept that technology in 29,000 years will make them possible and an author requiring the reader to accept a rash ultimatum as the best course of action for the character in question.

 

Or, in other words, Astropathic communication isn’t reliable enough to hold together a galactic empire of a million worlds, but that’s not proof of the Imperium being a stupid regime. It’s just a consequence of malicious gods that hunger for human suffering ensuring that interstellar telepathy only works so well.

 

Sure, but my point is "people can't be that stupid or intolerant, the Imperium wouldn't survive" doesn't hold water, because there's no way the Imperium survives anywhere but in a setting that demands it. The impossibility of an empire of malicious idiots is just as impossible as an empire that communicates with dreams. The necessity of it is immaterial. 

It is material, though. Astropathy is limited in its efficacy for the same reason that the Imperium of Man is ruled by the fanatics described above: hateful supernatural entities set conditions that ensure disorder and conflict. If the Ruinous Powers weren’t hostile to Humanity or capricious in general the two linchpins of Imperial cohesiveness — Astropathy and Navigator-enabled interstellar travel — wouldn’t be such dangerous affairs. 

 

Plenty of Imperium fans simply won't accept the reality of their faction being just like the rest of them.

That actually addresses the key question here:

 

Are the Adeptus Custodes “just like the rest of [the Imperium]”?

 

Had they laid down their weapons and not shown loyalty to the chapter, they probably would have ended up being reasigned after a period of monitoring.  Perhaps with a mind wipe.

...

I dont think it was nonsensical.  I think he went in so strong to see their reaction under duress.  They reacted the wrong way by showing emotional attachment.

Would they have been simply reassigned? Remember, the Custodian had delivered a guilty verdict along with his demand to surrender. That’s not exactly the best way to gauge someone’s reaction.

 

Against this, we have the Custodes being the Emperor's hand-crafted body guards and emissaries, who are genetically absolutely loyal to the Emperor, so loyal that they mourned and recused themselves for 10,000 years from His own empire when He fell. Hardly the most rational actions, but very fitting of their engineered personalities for absolute loyalty under any circumstance. So how should they act when another force refuses to submit to their commands? Space Marine lineages/genealogies are extremely important to the Imperium for determining subsequent recruitment loyalties/propensity to revolt. Add to this the warp potency of symbols and associations - it is not out of the question for further corruption in otherwise innocuous objects and people who have a symbolic, metaphoric or even ironic relation to the original occurrence. Don't you think the Custodes would still take precautions (even without all the anti-Astartes bias recently injected into their organisational culture) and attempt to take the Astartes into custody for at least the moment to ascertain their purity in-depth or determine the facts on the ground? That all sounds rational to me.

...

So: if the Custodes had simply written being nicer ('diplomatic') when asking the first time for the grey shield to submit and lay down his weapons, would the story be more palatable to those against it, even though it would have ended in exactly the same way?

...

This is a clear difference in culture in the Imperium - even the Emperor, who exhorted rationalism to all while He walked, still demanded absolute personal loyalty to Himself and His decisions on pain of death, no matter how inscrutable, obtuse or 'irrational' they were, and often gave no explanation to why these puzzling decisions were made. It was always loyalty first, even above rationalism. The Custodes are the engineered product of that mindset. To them and the Emperor, even if the demands are nonsensical to you, we still own and command you absolutely. This is what unbreakable, absolute loyalty looks like and tbh, that is all the Emperor has ever demonstrably wanted from his subjects from the very first twinklings of this fictional universe.

To your first point, we’re talking about two different aspects, both of which are driven by the same conditioning, indoctrination, and imposed psychology. The Custodians being engineered to hold the Emperor’s safety as paramount to the point of being irrationally unconcerned regarding the state of the larger Imperium but them also being otherwise hyper-intelligent and pragmatic are not mutually exclusive.

 

I would agree with your second point wholeheartedly... prior to the arrival of Guilliman and Cawl. The whole point of the Primaris enterprise was to provide the Adeptus Astartes with superior reinforcements free of those variables. As we all know Cawl was not successful with mitigating the “more idiosyncratic traits of some gene-lines,” but such considerations on the part of the character should be described, expressed, or at least otherwise alluded to — not left as an unstated possible motive. I’m not even debating plausibility here; I’m simply talking about good storytelling. And with that in mind, to your third point, a character acting according to their advertised nature does make for a more coherent, consistent story. That’s not to say that an author can’t explore the actions of an outlier, but shouldn’t such an exception to the rule be qualified as such?

 

To your final point, strictly speaking, that’s not true. The Emperor was absolutely ruthless with regard to certain things — because of their central importance to his plan and the conditions of his universe. For example, psykers had to be soul-bound or otherwise sanctioned, or they had to die. Why? Not because the Emperor didn’t tolerate dissent but because he understood that every uncontrolled and untrained psyker was a potential nexus for a Warp incursion. On the other hand, the Emperor wasn’t nearly as uncompromising when it came to matters he didn’t feel were as important. More than one of the Legiones Astartes was allowed to act in contravention of his edicts — even after being censured, while erstwhile enemies were given second chances. The fact that the Emperor was willing to make compromises where there was room for them is reflected by the fact that he delegated almost total governance of the Imperium for as long as he did. Back to the central contention of this discussion, none of this precludes a Custodian from realizing the approach he went with was likely to result in conflict and choosing a different course of action.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Phoebus

[Donkey Kong]

They didn't show "emotional attachment". They wanted to verify, then they pointed out their non-involvement in the supposed heresy. As Custodes typically don't blindly trust the word of the Inquisition, I don't see why proposing verification is heretical.

 

I think the emotional attachment is seen when Gerion is talking to Tyvar here

 

 

 

‘Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned,’ he said. ‘This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy. We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them! You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof. I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.’

 

We aren't directly told what the relationship is between the Primaris Greyshield Brazen Drakes and the Brazen Drakes Chapter or why Gerion is invested in rescuing and/or redeeming the Brazen Drakes Chapter beyond the name. The name Greyshield [Chapter] itself sounds like a contradiction. 

[b1soul]

This is all stuff that could've been better fleshed out by the authour. It doesn't take that many extra words to add some nuance.

 

Instead we got a very clumsy piece of writing, poor even by codex standards IMO

[Robbienw]

They didn't show "emotional attachment". They wanted to verify, then they pointed out their non-involvement in the supposed heresy. As Custodes typically don't blindly trust the word of the Inquisition, I don't see why proposing verification is heretical.

 

Yeah they did:

 

‘Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned,’ he said. ‘This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy. We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them! You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof. I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.’

 

That's definite emotional attachment, and disbelief that the Brazen Drakes have gone traitor.  He's referring to them as comrades, battle brothers and brethren.

Imagine if the Custodian had let them go and they had got pulled into whatever had happened to the Brazen Drakes.  Then you have 1 traitor chapter + 200 traitor primaris.

 

If anyone if going to verify what is going on it would have been the Custodes going down, whilst Gerion and co wait in detention with weapons relinquished.  If they had not already felt an attachment to their chapter and stood down as ordered, i'm sure they would have eventually be reasigned, or allowed to found a replacement chapter.

[Phoebus]

That’s all well and good, but let’s not ignore the order of events.

Before Gerion says anything, he has been declared a traitor. Before being ordered to disarm and surrender, he’s been told he’s tainted by heresy.

More to the point, the mindset that informed Tyvar’s  approach is the same one that leads him to think that the Brazen Drakes have “heretical gene-seed.” But we know each of the Greyshields came from a loyal Legion’s gene-stock. For Tyvar’s accusation to have any merit, it’s that Legion’s gene-seed that would need to be heretical. Thus, there’s more going on here than just “the Custodian is uncompromising” — Tyvar doesn’t grasp the basic points of the enterprise he’s been ordered to carry out. Is that plausible?

Anyways, I can think of an easy way the author (or his editor) could have justified this route: his verdict, order to surrender, and recourse to violence could have followed him receiving the news of rebellion on Khassedur, summoning Gerion to the bridge, and noting that he bore on his person a weapon he should not have had access to: a sword decorated with Brazen Drakes heraldry. Take an apparent contradiction (Greyshields haven’t met their gaining Chapter, much less have access to their equipment) and turn it into an overt hint that not all is as it seems.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Phoebus

[jaxom]

Reading through the past few pages it seems like part of makes or breaks the story is how much one is willing to interject into it.

 

Star Wars spoiler

It’s like someone who watched Revenge of the Sith only after seeing all of Clone Wars bs someone who only saw the first two prequels.

[Scribe]

 

Plenty of Imperium fans simply won't accept the reality of their faction being just like the rest of them.

That actually addresses the key question here:

 

Are the Adeptus Custodes “just like the rest of [the Imperium]”?

 

 

I see no logical way to say otherwise.

 

Obviously individuals can still find themselves at odds with their institutions. There are going to be members of every branch and arm of the Imperium which would in today's day be seen as 'Good'.

 

As an Institution of the Imperium however? How could they be anything other than 'just like the rest of the Imperium' and expect to survive?

 

They either are, 'just like the rest' or they are not, and are instead complicit with everything else which is going on, or at least guilty by association.

 

We know the High Lords of Terra are not 'good'.

We know the Inquisition is not 'good'.

We know Governors, Guard, Sisters, Astartes are not 'good' by any definition of the word in the year of our lord 2020.

 

We have 2 options.

 

Custodes are 'good', but they allow the rest of the Imperium to behave as it wishes, and they turn a blind eye to it, because certainly if they have tried to stop the slide into the hellscape that is the Imperium for 10K years, they have failed, utterly.

 

Custodes as an institution are 'just like the rest'. They may have good individuals, but they are rigid, impractical, and unrelenting in their belief.

 

Just like every Imperial institution.

[drooling blood]

For a Custode Tyvars a idiot.

Turns up at regular khaos uprising planet,
Brazen Drakes all these humies in the fleet are traitors, pls erm arrest.

 

Tyvar turns up at mechanicus refueling station.

Their fuel costs 10 cents more than terra.

Brazen Drakes and the humies, arrest the traitors.

 

Tyvar turns up at GW HQ.

You want how much for plastic. Hobbiests arrest those traitors.

[Roomsky]

 

 

 

I'd argue that brand of stupidity is a necessary conceit of the setting.

 

A thousand warriors cannot take a world by facerushing the enemy, and an Imperium that relies on dreams as a means of communication cannot sustain an interstellar empire. 

 

Same goes for chainswords, battleships shaped like nautical craft (not even submarines), titans, vellum as paper, slaves loading munitions, etc. The Imperium would disintegrate under any leadership.

I’d argue that the brand in question is an ideology of intolerant and uncompromising fanaticism that demands ignorance and obedience because it is ultimately founded on a fear of forces that are inimical to humanity. I’d also argue that the various factions of the Imperium of Man subscribe to said ideology to varying degrees. Finally, I’d argue that there’s a difference between certain stylistic concepts requiring the reader to accept that technology in 29,000 years will make them possible and an author requiring the reader to accept a rash ultimatum as the best course of action for the character in question.

 

Or, in other words, Astropathic communication isn’t reliable enough to hold together a galactic empire of a million worlds, but that’s not proof of the Imperium being a stupid regime. It’s just a consequence of malicious gods that hunger for human suffering ensuring that interstellar telepathy only works so well.

 

Sure, but my point is "people can't be that stupid or intolerant, the Imperium wouldn't survive" doesn't hold water, because there's no way the Imperium survives anywhere but in a setting that demands it. The impossibility of an empire of malicious idiots is just as impossible as an empire that communicates with dreams. The necessity of it is immaterial. 

It is material, though. Astropathy is limited in its efficacy for the same reason that the Imperium of Man is ruled by the fanatics described above: hateful supernatural entities set conditions that ensure disorder and conflict. If the Ruinous Powers weren’t hostile to Humanity or capricious in general the two linchpins of Imperial cohesiveness — Astropathy and Navigator-enabled interstellar travel — wouldn’t be such dangerous affairs. 

 

I'm not sure where the communication is breaking down here.

 

 

You seem to be arguing the Imperium has no choice but to use astropaths, that it is the only possible institution considering the resources available, and that it is dangerous because evil gods make it so.

 

I am not disputing these things.

 

I am saying it is logistically impossible for an interstellar empire to exist if their main form of communication is astropathy. It doesn’t matter if humans start detonating like nuclear bombs if they don’t use astropathy, its not sustainable. The motive does not matter. I am not saying the Imperium is foolish for relying on astropaths; Roddenberry’s Federation would not hold together using astropaths. It is impossible.

 

My point is that the argument for the excision of a point in the setting because it is impossible does not work in 40k. 40k is not possible. Its very bones are impossible. I don’t accept that blind intolerance, specifically, would lay their empire low. Anything about the Imperium would lay their empire low, but no one is demanding astropaths be changed to a more effective means of communication because it’s statistically and historically impossible.

[drooling blood]

Im guessing that primaris are just as pycho indoctrinated as every one else.

There could still be brothers fighting, I must try and save them.

Throw down your weapons, I will never surrender.

 

Its bones are quite capable. Hate this, hate that, kill, kill, KILL.

Roddenberry’s Federation is the Tau. Which is impossible.

[Phoebus]

 

 

Plenty of Imperium fans simply won't accept the reality of their faction being just like the rest of them.

That actually addresses the key question here:

 

Are the Adeptus Custodes “just like the rest of [the Imperium]”?

 

 

I see no logical way to say otherwise.

With respect, you’ve offered the exact opposite with one of the options you offered.

 

I’m by no means arguing that Custodes are “good,” but I do agree wholeheartedly that they’ve allowed the rest of the Imperium to behave as it wishes for the better part of ten thousand years; that they turned a blind eye to it so long as the actions of its increasingly dystopian regents did not threaten the safety of the Emperor; and that their decision to do these things both contributed to the slide you describe and and constitutes an utter failure on their part. I would argue that this willful separation and non-involvement on the Custodians’ part is precisely because they are both distinct from the High Lords and the Adeptus Terra. Consider just a couple of examples:

 

The Adeptus Custodes don’t venerate the Emperor as a god. This isn’t just a doctrinal difference between them and the Ecclesiarchy; it’s a fundamental schism that ensures the two organizations have radically mindsets, priorities, and strategies.

 

Likewise, the Custodians don’t merely differ with the Adeptus Mechanicus regarding the veneration of the Emperor as the Omnissiah. Their outlook on practically on any number of issues — from their perspectives on technology to Martian sovereignty — is more likely to be radically different than similar.

Do the Custodians seek political power or personal profit? While they’re quite capable of understanding what the Navis Nobilitae and Chartist Captains desire, would they ever act on such priorities unless it was imperative for the Emperor’s security?

 

The point that I’m trying to make here is that the Adeptus Custodes are “the same” as the rest of the Imperium’s factions only in the broadest sense. We don’t expect even individual factions within the Imperium to be homogeneous in their mentality and ideology, so how can we argue that disparate organizations are the same? Conversely, while we can (and probably should) expect for one or more Custodians to be “outside the mold,” should their variation not be somehow qualified — much like we know Lukas the Trickster is distinct among Space Wolves or Uriel Ventris is less orthodox than most Ultramarines?

 

 

 

 

 

I'd argue that brand of stupidity is a necessary conceit of the setting.

 

A thousand warriors cannot take a world by facerushing the enemy, and an Imperium that relies on dreams as a means of communication cannot sustain an interstellar empire. 

 

Same goes for chainswords, battleships shaped like nautical craft (not even submarines), titans, vellum as paper, slaves loading munitions, etc. The Imperium would disintegrate under any leadership.

I’d argue that the brand in question is an ideology of intolerant and uncompromising fanaticism that demands ignorance and obedience because it is ultimately founded on a fear of forces that are inimical to humanity. I’d also argue that the various factions of the Imperium of Man subscribe to said ideology to varying degrees. Finally, I’d argue that there’s a difference between certain stylistic concepts requiring the reader to accept that technology in 29,000 years will make them possible and an author requiring the reader to accept a rash ultimatum as the best course of action for the character in question.

 

Or, in other words, Astropathic communication isn’t reliable enough to hold together a galactic empire of a million worlds, but that’s not proof of the Imperium being a stupid regime. It’s just a consequence of malicious gods that hunger for human suffering ensuring that interstellar telepathy only works so well.

 

Sure, but my point is "people can't be that stupid or intolerant, the Imperium wouldn't survive" doesn't hold water, because there's no way the Imperium survives anywhere but in a setting that demands it. The impossibility of an empire of malicious idiots is just as impossible as an empire that communicates with dreams. The necessity of it is immaterial. 

It is material, though. Astropathy is limited in its efficacy for the same reason that the Imperium of Man is ruled by the fanatics described above: hateful supernatural entities set conditions that ensure disorder and conflict. If the Ruinous Powers weren’t hostile to Humanity or capricious in general the two linchpins of Imperial cohesiveness — Astropathy and Navigator-enabled interstellar travel — wouldn’t be such dangerous affairs. 

 

I am saying it is logistically impossible for an interstellar empire to exist if their main form of communication is astropathy. It doesn’t matter if humans start detonating like nuclear bombs if they don’t use astropathy, its not sustainable. The motive does not matter. I am not saying the Imperium is foolish for relying on astropaths; Roddenberry’s Federation would not hold together using astropaths. It is impossible.

 

My point is that the argument for the excision of a point in the setting because it is impossible does not work in 40k. 40k is not possible. Its very bones are impossible. I don’t accept that blind intolerance, specifically, would lay their empire low. Anything about the Imperium would lay their empire low, but no one is demanding astropaths be changed to a more effective means of communication because it’s statistically and historically impossible.

I’m saying that the Imperium isn’t failing because of its tools in and of themselves, but because said tools are sabotaged.

 

Astropathy (among other things) isn’t possible in the same sense that any invented pseudo-science or supernatural powers aren’t possible in the real world. It requires suspension of disbelief to function, but within this narrative It could and did. If that weren’t true, the Great Crusade would not have been possible. The Emperor understood that the efficacy of Astropathy and interstellar travel via the Warp were always contingent on the say-so of hostile god-like entities, though, and thus they were a means to an end. The Heresy effectively removed that end, and since then the Imperium has been dying a death of a million cuts.

 

Anyways, I’ll concede that I’m arguing a point that isn’t necessarily tangential to how a Custodian acted, or whether his actions were apropos of the situation or his character! 

[Scribe]

I'm just rereading the story, and folks, its not difficult.

 

 

‘Apprehend these traitors.’

 

...

 

Now, there hung Khassedur, revolving as a grainy three-dimensional image before their eyes.

 

War-torn.

 

Ravaged.

 

Beside it, inescapable, scrolled spools of low gothic strategic reports, warnings and cries for aid. They told a story of heresy, of rebellion, betrayal and destruction. They engulfed Dessima’s vision, making a mockery of all that she and her comrades had endured to get to this point, rendering hollow the hope they had thought to bestow.

 

...

 

Ahead, even, of Captain Gerion. The Greyshields’ leader was turning, eyes widening even as Tyvar raised his guardian spear. The three Brazen Drakes who flanked him moved almost as fast, but not even the post-Human Space Marines had the preternatural swiftness of thought and body possessed by the Adeptus Custodes.

 

Whether they sought to reach for their weapons or raise their hands in gestures of placation was unclear; whatever the case, they froze as they found themselves staring into the cavernous barrel of the bolter built into Tyvar’s spear.

 

‘Shield-Captain…’ began Gerion.

 

The voice of a man who finds himself suddenly attempting to defuse a bomb, thought Dessima, sliding her own hand down to the pommel of her executioner greatblade. In her peripheral vision, she saw her sisters following her lead.

 

‘You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’

 

A spasm of anger passed across Gerion’s blunt features, but was swiftly hidden behind his usual guarded mask.

 

‘Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned,’ he said. ‘This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy. We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them! You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof. I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.’

 

‘And I am not in the habit of repeating myself,’ Tyvar replied. ‘Disarm. Command your brothers throughout the fleet to do likewise. Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’

 

The designation scrolled across the hololith, repeating beneath the damning seal of the Ordo Hereticus. It could not be an error. They all knew it, even Gerion.

 

...

 

‘You give us no chance to speak in our defence!’ cried one of Gerion’s brothers, no longer able to hold his silence. ‘These sins are not ours to account for! We have fought loyally and done no wrong, and now–’

 

The gunshots rang out across the bridge, their thunder in the silence like a hammer taken to a pane of glass. The Brazen Drake who had spoken was thrown flat on his back by the tight burst of mass-reactive bolts. At so close a range, even power armour could not resist their fury. Blood sprayed Greyshields, deck crew and consoles alike.

 

...

 

Tyvar’s follow-up thrust was so quick that Dessima could barely track it. Somehow, Gerion managed to weave aside, though not fast enough to avoid losing half his ear to the spear’s crackling blade. The skin of his cheek was flayed by its power field, and Gerion snarled.

 

‘Brothers, we are betrayed!’ he roared into his gorget’s vox mic, throwing himself sideways as he reached for his own drake-embossed power sword. ‘Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!’

 

That was a mistake, thought Dessima, as her blade whipped out and opened the throat of one of Gerion’s remaining brothers; the Space Marine had barely raised his weapons before she felled him. The other swung a clubbing blow that broke the neck of one of Dessima’s sisters and threw her body backwards into her fellows.

 

He then raised his bolt rifle and let fly at Shield-Captain Tyvar.

 

Gerion erred, in not accepting the offer to stand down and be DETAINED. Not killed. Not executed. DETAINED.

 

The Custodes did nothing wrong, and its honestly stunning to think they did here.

 

EDIT: Phoebus, I think we broadly agree. Its a longer post though for me to explain that I'll have to come back to. :D

Edited April 29, 2020 by Scribe

[Scribe]

I mean honestly, on what grounds do you get to protest a direct order from the representative of the Emperor, raise your hand against them, AND call your Chapter to action, and you are not seen as a traitor THREE DISTINCT TIMES.

 

Disobedience, is treason. This is Warhammer 40,0000. This is not Logical Application of Military Theory, Logistics, and Psychology 101.

 

It is 40K.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I mean honestly, on what grounds do you get to protest a direct order from the representative of the Emperor, raise your hand against them, AND call your Chapter to action, and you are not seen as a traitor THREE DISTINCT TIMES.

 

Disobedience, is treason. This is Warhammer 40,0000. This is not Logical Application of Military Theory, Logistics, and Psychology 101.

 

It is 40K.

 

I add, that even nowadays, in any regular armies of the known world, disobedience to a superior orders on the field of battle is by itself an act of treason, and is practically always punished harshly by martial courts.

 

So in the end, it is not a "40K" specific thing, but a common rule that exist since the first humans civilizations and organized military corps.

[jaxom]

 

Conversely, while we can (and probably should) expect for one or more Custodians to be “outside the mold,” should their variation not be somehow qualified — much like we know Lukas the Trickster is distinct among Space Wolves or Uriel Ventris is less orthodox than most Ultramarines?

 

This a common literary trick when having an actual outsider to explain information to doesn't make sense. Have the POV character be somehow different and use it to not establish how they're special, but also in them examining how they are different from normal they end up explaining what normal is. Garro in Flight of the Eisenstein is a great example of its use.

[Phoebus]

Scribe,

 

There’s nothing difficult about following the A, B, and C of the story. There’s simply a disagreement regarding how Tyvar acts (relative to what is expected from one of his type) and whether he could or should have arrived at a course of action that Knight-Centura Dessima herself finds shocking and unsuitable for the situation... and that the author qualified as being the wrong one after the fact.

 

Frater Antodeniel,

 

Again, that’s fine as generalizations go, but in practice “regular armies” aren’t uniform entities with identical approaches. Certain “regular armies” have demanded unquestioning obedience. Others have made a point of distinguishing between legal and illegal orders. Even within that broad spectrum of “regular armies,” some commanders have been more rational and ethical in both their orders and discipline than their leaders would have liked, while others have been less rational and more ruthless than their nation’s laws allowed. In either case, context is key: much like a writer should qualify to their audience that British officers admired Rommel for reasons other than his record as a commander, this author should help a reader understand why Tyvar is delivering verdicts of heresy with the ruthless finality of an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor.

 

That last bit of course ties into the other debate this story has generated: whether Custodians share a similar approach to matters such as this with other Imperial factions. You know my perspective on this, and I suspect we may agree to disagree here.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Phoebus

[Scribe]

Scribe,

 

There’s nothing difficult about following the A, B, and C of the story. There’s simply a disagreement regarding how Tyvar acts (relative to what is expected from one of his type) and whether he could or should have arrived at a course of action that Knight-Centura Dessima herself finds shocking and unsuitable for the situation... and that the author qualified as being the wrong one after the fact.

 

 

Link on that?

[Carach]

can i just say from a gaming standpoint chaos primaris were not really necessary in the first place when chaos gives you such an insane scope for boosting the power levels of folks up....

 

so tabletop standpoint: there is no reason for this, but much like the primaris rubbish turning up in the first place; it is to make money. (granted we have had some half decent writers actually flesh it out a bit to make it look less like a painfully obvious boardroom meeting to project that red profit line up a chart)

 

from a story standpoint: just doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. 

[Phoebus]

I thought Clark’s take on the matter was in this thread already, but maybe I was wrong!

 

To be clear, there’s nothing wrong with Tyvar being fallible. I don’t think him being wrong in this specific way was the most apropos option Clark could have chosen. Even if he was intent on going down the “uncompromisingly ruthless Custodian” route, there was probably a more elegant way to get there.

 

This is all assuming you don’t subscribe to Death of the Author, of course!

[Scribe]

I don't think that link counters what I am saying. My phone sucks at dancing between windows though.

[Phoebus]

I feel your pain re: the phone bit!

 

In and of itself, the author’s tweet only truly indicates a difference of opinion with those who argue the Custodian’s choices are logical. To me, it’s part of a larger point: the author’s opinion reinforces how Dessima is shown to feel; it underscores that Tyvar’s actions are at odds with a faction that is qualified as being more rational and cerebral than their counterparts in the Adeptus Terra.

 

Now, obviously a lot of this is subjective. I wouldn’t be surprised if some here place more stock on Sanash Gallimedan’s quote on page 27 of the Codex than the “Guardians of Greatness” historical entry on page 31, for example, nor would I think they’d be wrong to do so. On the other hand, I feel strongly about the Custodes being distinct in temperament and outlook from other Imperial institutions — without that meaning they are good or humane in the ways that matter to you and me.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Phoebus

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

I feel your pain re: the phone bit!

 

In and of itself, the author’s tweet only truly indicates a difference of opinion with those who argue the Custodian’s choices are logical. To me, it’s part of a larger point: the author’s opinion reinforces how Dessima is shown to feel; it underscores that Tyvar’s actions are at odds with a faction that is qualified as being more rational and cerebral than their counterparts in the Adeptus Terra.

 

Now, obviously a lot of this is subjective. I wouldn’t be surprised if some here place more stock on Sanash Gallimedan’s quote on page 27 of the Codex than the “Guardians of Greatness” historical entry on page 31, for example, nor would I think they’d be wrong to do so. On the other hand, I feel strongly about the Custodes being distinct in temperament and outlook from other Imperial institutions — without that meaning they are good or humane in the ways that matter to you and me.

 

What is "logical" is such a pointless discussion to pursue here.  People still think there is some sort of objective "logic" they can appeal to to justify what are essentially their own preferences of how the setting should be.  

 

Andy suggested that he intended the story to show the dysfunction and intolerance endemic to the culture of the Imperium, and I think the story does that in spades.  This story leans heavily on the satirical dystopian view of 40k, and other authors take a different approach.  There is no objective way to view how things in the Imperium like the Custodes are "supposed" to be, and parsing that out here is falling into the same rut of toxic discourse of fan culture that is called out in that other thread in this sub.  

 

You can think that the story is garbage, or you can think it gets the tone of the setting just right, but I think it's important to call out that there is no authoritative take on how any particular faction in the game should act.  Black Library literature and even the codexes are supposed to be considered unreliable narration.  

 

That being said, I personally think that this story does an excellent job of representing a particular dimension of 40k's complex and sometimes contradictory foundations.  

[Ishagu]

Except there is nothing complex or interesting about this story.

 

The author took a unique element of the setting and made it just like everything else.

 

Oh look, here is a super rare faction of warrior scholars who are properly informed about humanity's history. Now they are intolerant zealots too, just like everyone else. Yay

 

The author used the Custodes as a vehicle for a very basic plot. They were the wrong vehicle.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Scribe]

Except there is nothing complex or interesting about this story.

 

The author took a unique element of the setting and made it just like everything else.

 

Oh look, here is a super rare faction of warrior scholars who are properly informed about humanity's history. Now they are intolerant zealots too, just like everyone else. Yay

 

The author used the Custodes as a vehicle for a very basic plot. They were the wrong vehicle.

 

You are wrong, and that is ok.

 

They remain a unique element, that are unsurprisingly, Imperial. The interesting part here is that the Primaris was naive enough to think he could somehow shout down a direct order from the representatives of the Emperor.

 

That is all.