Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[Ishagu]

@Scribe

 

The order was only one element of the plot.

 

It's everything that came with it, and what the Custodian said.

 

You are actually wrong, and that's OK.

 

That is all

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Scribe]

Feel free to provide quotes. The text is clear, and it is plain.

 

'Arrest them'.

 

'Wha..'

 

'Do not protest innocence, you will be detained.'

 

'I did nothing.'

 

'Thats enough out of you.'

 

'EVERYONE REBEL AND TAKE OVER.'

 

Pretty clear cut, unless one has a bias.

[Ishagu]

The order is one thing. Outright deciding they are damned by loose association is what makes the Custodes look stupid. A warrior scholar trained in diplomacy would be adept at de-escalating conflict between allies, not creating instant war.

 

I suggest you read the story?

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

The order is one thing. Outright deciding they are damned by loose association is what makes the Custodes look stupid.

 

I suggest you read the story?

 

Hey you know there's fact, and there's opinion, and you should probably learn the difference!

[Ishagu]

Please, by all means, show me where the Custodian displayed any of the mandatory diplomacy skills they spend thousands of years to perfect?

 

In other stories like the Talons of the Emperor series we see this showcased perfectly. They are patient, considered, thoughtful, even in the face of what might be considered insulting. Where others jump to zealous rage they do not. A Custodes commander would be a paragon of their prescribed virtues.

 

If this had been an Inquisitor Lord, or a different chapter master then no problem, story would be fine if a bit mundane.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Lord_Caerolion]

Custodes are still the literal voice of the Emperor. He has not decided they are damned, he said that they are tainted by heresy, and they are. Their Chapter has gone traitor. They are part of said Chapter. Therefore, they are associated with it. The Custodes goes on to say that they will be detained until an appropriate fate can be determined for them. Not that they'll die. They only were killed after they countermanded the authority of the Custodes, that of the Emperor Himself.

 

For all we know, if they had complied, and proven that they are still loyal subjects, the response could have been "well, you're innocent, but the Brazen Drakes are Excommunicate Traitoris. Therefore, you'll form a new Chapter, untainted by Heresy". 

[Scribe]

The order is one thing. Outright deciding they are damned by loose association is what makes the Custodes look stupid. A warrior scholar trained in diplomacy would be adept at de-escalating conflict between allies, not creating instant war.

 

I suggest you read the story?

 

Perhaps you need to read the story again. Should I quote it again for you?

 

‘You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’

 

The only character in the story that is stupid, is Gerion, for TWICE thinking to protest.

[Ishagu]

@Lord_Careolion

 

You're explaining it a lot better than the Custodes did in the actual story. Could this have been resolved peacefully? Absolutely! Unfortunately the Custodian in the story was a blunt idiot without a shred of finesse or nuance in his communication.

 

After reading Talons of the Emperor and the Regent's Shadow the lack of quality in this story is pretty apparent.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Lord_Caerolion]

Maybe we should tone down the snark on all sides, before this gets closed?

[Scribe]

Maybe we should tone down the snark on all sides, before this gets closed?

 

I am still waiting for where the text refutes me.

[Ishagu]

The Custodes aren't the literal voice of the Emperor, nor do they officially supercede an Astartes Chapter Master, though of course they command more respect.

 

They also know better than to kill everything or anger opposition further at the first sign of questioning. That's called being a good diplomat.

 

If anyone is the voice of the Emperor that would be the Imperial Regent, and he certainly wouldn't waste resources like this.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[mc warhammer]

 

I feel your pain re: the phone bit!

 

In and of itself, the author’s tweet only truly indicates a difference of opinion with those who argue the Custodian’s choices are logical. To me, it’s part of a larger point: the author’s opinion reinforces how Dessima is shown to feel; it underscores that Tyvar’s actions are at odds with a faction that is qualified as being more rational and cerebral than their counterparts in the Adeptus Terra.

 

Now, obviously a lot of this is subjective. I wouldn’t be surprised if some here place more stock on Sanash Gallimedan’s quote on page 27 of the Codex than the “Guardians of Greatness” historical entry on page 31, for example, nor would I think they’d be wrong to do so. On the other hand, I feel strongly about the Custodes being distinct in temperament and outlook from other Imperial institutions — without that meaning they are good or humane in the ways that matter to you and me.

 

What is "logical" is such a pointless discussion to pursue here.  People still think there is some sort of objective "logic" they can appeal to to justify what are essentially their own preferences of how the setting should be.  

 

Andy suggested that he intended the story to show the dysfunction and intolerance endemic to the culture of the Imperium, and I think the story does that in spades.  This story leans heavily on the satirical dystopian view of 40k, and other authors take a different approach.  There is no objective way to view how things in the Imperium like the Custodes are "supposed" to be, and parsing that out here is falling into the same rut of toxic discourse of fan culture that is called out in that other thread in this sub.  

 

You can think that the story is garbage, or you can think it gets the tone of the setting just right, but I think it's important to call out that there is no authoritative take on how any particular faction in the game should act.  Black Library literature and even the codexes are supposed to be considered unreliable narration.  

 

That being said, I personally think that this story does an excellent job of representing a particular dimension of 40k's complex and sometimes contradictory foundations.  

 

this broadly sounds like my understanding of 40k, but i don't know as much as some.

 

so far, most of the custodes depictions i've seen are basically golden dudes with long names who slice bolt rounds out of the air and whose loyalty to the emperor is without question. whenever one of them is within 100 feet of a cataegis or astartes, they tend to daydream about killing them.

 

i still don't have a strong handle on the custodes grasp of logic or diplomacy or heresy. i haven't made it to "watchers of the throne" yet, so there may be something there.

 

they do seem to be removed from the rest of the imperium in terms of privilege and mindset, which some seem believe should allow them a more holistic or rational approach (though, 10k isolation could imply the opposite).

 

i keep looking for examples of custodes behaviour that firmly contrasts this story's example, but if those have been supplied, i've missed them.

 

that being said, i do think the author could have sold it better. keep the custode as aloof and alien and obtuse in his reasoning, but use the sister as way to filter that for the audience.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

@Lord_Careolion

 

You're explaining it a lot better than the Custodes did in the actual story. Could this have been resolved peacefully? Absolutely! Unfortunately the Custodian in the story was a blunt idiot without a shred of finesse or nuance in his communication.

 

Could it be that the author has a different impression of Custodes than the shining genius political/martial paragons that you see them as?  

 

He was well within his right to interpret Custodes as inflexible nasty characters without checking with you first.  And Black Library printed it, so take it up with them and correct them on it since you're the professional Custodes-Understander here.  

[Ishagu]

Hey, if you want to say the story is garbage I certainly wouldn't disagree. Black Library has published plenty of material with questionable quality.

[Donkey Kong]

Going back and forth with "You're wrong" "No, you're wrong" isn't exactly productive conversation. It's 40k lore, objective wrong doesn't exist.

 

That being said, I fall in the camp that dislikes the story because the behavior doesn't make sense.

 

@Scribe

 

The text isn't going to refute you. It's the text that's being criticized.

 

It's not "Arrest them," it's "'Apprehend these traitors.'" And why are they traitors? Because they're Greyshields that have been assigned to a chapter that has been declared "Hereticus Diabolus Extremis" by the Ordo Hereticus. I don't know what being a Greyshield Brazen Drake entails because the story hasn't told me. I also didn't know that the Custodians took the Inquisition at their word.

 

The later justification "'The heretical gene-seed within your bodies is its own condemnation.'" also is a condemnation of every cousin chapter to the Brazen Drakes. The Greyshield that pleads innocence  "'These sins are not ours to account for! We have fought loyally and done no wrong[....]'" is a completely reasonable rebuttal that's so obvious it's a shame that it even had to be said.

 

I don't think anybody is expecting anyone involved to be "nice." I think the people who disagree with this story are saying that characters who should know better are not acting with any prudence. 

 

Ignore the less than stellar dialogue or absence of detail (Phoebus suggested a heraldic sword). Ignore even the absolute waste of resources that is executing a few hundred space marines. This galaxy brained custodian initiated a gunfight on a starship bridge/CIC. Absolute genius.

 

EDIT

 

Could it be that the author has a different impression of Custodes than the shining genius political/martial paragons that you see them as?  

He was well within his right to interpret Custodes as inflexible nasty characters without checking with you first.  And Black Library printed it, so take it up with them and correct them on it since you're the professional Custodes-Understander here.  

 

Hey, if you want to say the story is garbage I certainly wouldn't disagree. Black Library has published plenty of material with questionable quality.

 

Black Library has printed garbage before. I don't see any reason not to say that this story does not fit my interpretation of 40k and I'll be ignoring it. I  also don't see a reason not to say why I don't like the story.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Donkey Kong

[Scribe]

The Custodes aren't the literal voice of the Emperor, nor do they officially supercede an Astartes Chapter Master, though of course they command more respect.

 

They also know better than to kill everything or anger opposition further at the first sign of questioning. That's called being a good diplomat.

 

If anyone is the voice of the Emperor that would be the Imperial Refent, and he certainly wouldn't waste resources like this.

 

Show me in the text. You said I should read the story. Show me in the text, without bias, where I am wrong.

 

Or just break it down for yourself.

 

You are the Custode. You are in command. You have fought across the warp fractured universe to deliver aid to a Chapter of Astartes. Your order (the Custodes) already have historical reason to not give Astartes the benefit of the doubt. You are also the pinnacle of genecraft, psycho-indoctrinated, and 'perfect' to the point of being further removed from Humanity, than even the Astartes.

 

You arrive at your destination, confronted with the reality (yes reality) that the Chapter has essentially gone rogue, if not outright declared for Chaos. You have some of that very chapter (it seems a few Brazen Claw are on the ship) in your presence.

 

Does he execute them immediately? No.

 

Does he give them multiple opportunities to stand down? Yes.

Does he explain that they will be held until it can be further determined what their appropriate fate will be? Yes.

 

Tell me, without bias, that those are the actions of someone 'unreasonable' within the context of the setting, and the story.

 

Oh, and do it with quotes from the text itself since you said I need to 'read the story'.

[Ishagu]

Hey, the genius Custodian basically branded every Ultramarine and their successors to be traitors by association. Must be news to the Imperial Regent.

 

What an intelligent and nuanced thinker he is. Oh wait...

 

@Scribe

 

A good example was provided in the post above. If you want to excuse bad writing that's your call. The story was full of it.

 

"'The heretical gene-seed within your bodies is its own condemnation.'" this line alone condemns the Custodian as an outright idiot.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Marshal Rohr]

The problem isn’t the custodian trying to arrest them or how they reacted. It’s the custodian thinking someone who has never met someone else needs to be arrested at all. Even in the Imperium the dont exterminatus Necromunda because some colony on the Eastern Fringe joined the Tau.

 

The reaction would be the Primaris will help the Imperium fight the chapter they were supposed to join or they’d just move on and join another chapter. There’s no reason for the Primaris to care at all.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's "apprehend these traitors" because they are members of a Chapter that has been deemed Heretical. 

 

EDIT: 

 

 

Even in the Imperium the dont exterminatus Necromunda because some colony on the Eastern Fringe joined the Tau.

 

Except judging the many for the sins of the few is literally what Exterminatus is. I guarantee there are loyal Imperial souls on the vast majority of planets that are destroyed in this manner. "Better a million innocents die than a traitor survive". This isn't destroying Necromunda because a colony on the Eastern Fringe joins the Tau, it's the planet Genericus turning traitor, and finding a regiment of Genericus Imperial Guard a sector away, and deeming them heretical because they are from said traitor planet. Do they have anything to do with said treachery? Not necessarily, it could have all happened after they left on campaign. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Scribe]

 

The later justification "'The heretical gene-seed within your bodies is its own condemnation.'" also is a condemnation of every cousin chapter to the Brazen Drakes. The Greyshield that pleads innocence  "'These sins are not ours to account for! We have fought loyally and done no wrong[....]'" is a completely reasonable rebuttal that's so obvious it's a shame that it even had to be said.

 

 

‘I am Custodes. I speak with the Emperor’s voice. Were you loyal, you would set down your weapons and accept your guilt."

 

Is this wrong?

[Marshal Rohr]

Geneseed can’t be heretical because then the Imperium would purge all genelines since every one of them has had traitors. Bunch of space wolves joined the Red Corsairs and no one blew up Fenris over it. Edited April 30, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Ishagu]

@Scribe

 

It's not about right or wrong. It's about how people trained in diplomacy act like uneducated zealous idiots who escalate a conflict that wastes the Imperium's resources.

 

So either you tell me that 60% of all Astartes should be purged, or you admit that the Custodian was spouting utter nonsense.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Marshal Rohr]

The point isn’t if the Imperium is harsh and illogical the point is no one acts like this even in totalitarian regimes.

[Scribe]

@Scribe

 

It's not about right or wrong. It's about how people trained in diplomacy act like zealous idiots who escalate a conflict that wastes the Imperium's resources.

 

He didnt. He gave them 2 chances. Is he supposed to ask nicely next time and articulate to ASTARTES (you know the beings we believe to have logic/reasoning ability far more advanced than ourselves) that

 

'hey guys I know maybe/probably you are not traitor, but you see..you have this iconography, you clearly had some contact with this Chapter, and well...look they blew up your adopted homeworld, so like can we just be reasonable here and lay down your weapons so we can have a chat?

 

Oh and linda, fire up my shuttle, I have a war to go win."

 

EDIT: The more I re-read it, its not the Custode at all that is the issue. Asartes of all beings should know to sit down, and shut up, when told. Follow your orders. You are psycho-indoctrinated FOR A REASON.

 

Its the Astartes characterization that is flawed.

 

"Me thinks you protest too much."

Edited April 30, 2020 by Scribe

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

The problem isn’t the custodian trying to arrest them or how they reacted. It’s the custodian thinking someone who has never met someone else needs to be arrested at all. Even in the Imperium the dont exterminatus Necromunda because some colony on the Eastern Fringe joined the Tau.

 

The reaction would be the Primaris will help the Imperium fight the chapter they were supposed to join or they’d just move on and join another chapter. There’s no reason for the Primaris to care at all.

The problem with these sorts of assertions is that you're just projecting how you think the Imperium would behave as how it actually does behave.  There is no objective metric.  It's fine not to like the story but so many of the comments on here are like this, not really making a distinction between how you personally would like to think the characters would handle a situation VS how a writer chose to decide they would behave.  

 

The point isn’t if the Imperium is harsh and illogical the point is no one acts like this even in totalitarian regimes.

 

This is just historically inaccurate, on the other hand.