Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[Ishagu]

The Custodian literally said Ultramarine geneseed is tainted beyond forgiveness.

 

The Greyshields are literally Ultramarines assigned to a new chapter.

 

The Custodian is stupid, the author didn't do his research. That's all there is to it.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Donkey Kong]

 

 

The later justification "'The heretical gene-seed within your bodies is its own condemnation.'" also is a condemnation of every cousin chapter to the Brazen Drakes. The Greyshield that pleads innocence  "'These sins are not ours to account for! We have fought loyally and done no wrong[....]'" is a completely reasonable rebuttal that's so obvious it's a shame that it even had to be said.

 

 

‘I am Custodes. I speak with the Emperor’s voice. Were you loyal, you would set down your weapons and accept your guilt."

 

Is this wrong?

 

 

"Were you loyal, you would [....]  accept your guilt [of being a traitor]."

 

I don't have a polite way to describe how dumb  that sentence is.

[Ishagu]

I expect that stupidity from all sorts of Imperium elements. Not these guys, however. Such a silly plot.

[Scribe]

Or perhaps, as a Custode, he already knows all about the many many many Chapters of Ultramarine stock that have gone rogue or full on traitor over the 100's if not 1000's of years of his existence, and knows with the access that only a Custode of high rank would have, exactly how many Ultramarines actually went traitor?

 

Maybe, hes simply tired of the boys in blue going Traitor, and this is just one more example out of a long history of sedition? 

 

 

 

The later justification "'The heretical gene-seed within your bodies is its own condemnation.'" also is a condemnation of every cousin chapter to the Brazen Drakes. The Greyshield that pleads innocence  "'These sins are not ours to account for! We have fought loyally and done no wrong[....]'" is a completely reasonable rebuttal that's so obvious it's a shame that it even had to be said.

 

 

‘I am Custodes. I speak with the Emperor’s voice. Were you loyal, you would set down your weapons and accept your guilt."

 

Is this wrong?

 

 

"Were you loyal, you would [....]  accept your guilt [of being a traitor]."

 

I don't have a polite way to describe how dumb  that sentence is.

 

 

You must struggle with a LOT of 40K then.

[Ishagu]

Lol now you're talking rubbish.

 

The point is that an intelligent, millenia old commander who is a student of history knows that not everyone is guilty by association. Or so he should, if the story was any good and he wasn't written as an uneducated fool.

[mc warhammer]

Geneseed can’t be heretical because then the Imperium would purge all genelines since every one of them has had traitors. Bunch of space wolves joined the Red Corsairs and no one blew up Fenris over it.

but aren't there examples of certain factions within the imperium believing gene-seed can be heretical? guilliman hasn't allowed the traitor gene-seeds to fill the primaris ranks.

 

the reaction to garro, the eisenstein crew, the crusader host, etc implies a certain distrust that could be extended to genetics.

 

and yeah, the founding chapters have all had traitors but isn't that just an example of cover ups and general hypocrisy within the imperium?

 

re the story; it seems there were brazen drakes on board the ship alongside the primaris captain? it could just be poor writing, but there may be a mix of greyshield and first gen drakes together and therefore some level of prior contact and mixing between them?

[Scribe]

Is it rubbish? Are you going to pretend that Ultramarine stock doesnt go rogue?

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Or perhaps, as a Custode, he already knows all about the many many many Chapters of Ultramarine stock that have gone rogue or full on traitor over the 100's if not 1000's of years of his existence, and knows with the access that only a Custode of high rank would have, exactly how many Ultramarines actually went traitor?

 

Maybe, hes simply tired of the boys in blue going Traitor, and this is just one more example out of a long history of sedition? 

Seriously, Ultramarines have got to be one of the most evil of the loyalist chapters.  Miniature warlords with their own star systems, and no obvious gene flaws to keep them humble like you get with the Salamanders, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, or Raven Guard.  And now their Primarch is running the show.  They are due to get taken down a peg if you ask me.  

[Scribe]

 

 

re the story; it seems there were brazen drakes on board the ship alongside the primaris captain? it could just be poor writing, but there may be a mix of greyshield and first gen drakes together and therefore some level of prior contact and mixing between them?

 

 

The text is not clear, but I thought this as well when a sentence calls out both Brazen Drakes or whatever and the Greyshield.

[Ishagu]

Is it rubbish? Are you going to pretend that Ultramarine stock doesnt go rogue?

When did I say it didn't? So you think the Custodes should kill all of humanity?

 

Are you telling me humans don't turn to Chaos? Exterminatus for everyone!

 

Your argument is really poor. Just like the Custodian in the story. Thank you for making my point for me.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[mc warhammer]

Or perhaps, as a Custode, he already knows all about the many many many Chapters of Ultramarine stock that have gone rogue or full on traitor over the 100's if not 1000's of years of his existence, and knows with the access that only a Custode of high rank would have, exactly how many Ultramarines actually went traitor?

it's possible this particular dude thinks all astartes should be wiped out full stop and is taking part in this whole primaris business against his better judgement  and is actively looking for reasons to trash as many of them as possible.

 

i mean, custodes tend to imagine murdering space marines quite a bit.

 

if that was the case though, a bit more of a hint from the author and GW to that end would have been nice

[Scribe]

 

Is it rubbish? Are you going to pretend that Ultramarine stock doesnt go rogue?

When did I say it didn't? So you think the Custodes should kill all of humanity?

 

Are you telling me humans don't turn to Chaos?

 

Your argument is really poor.

 

 

It's not my argument. Its the text.

 

Clearly this particular custode, would DETAIN, anyone he thought tainted with heresy.

 

Clearly this particular custode would also TERMINATE, anyone who took their SECOND chance to submit, and declined.

 

You have a problem because the custode is not Noble enough for you, not a Warrior Scholar who is eager to debate why this Astartes should submit to his command.

 

Thats simply not an issue for me, because the Custode is part of, and a supporter of, the 'most brutal regime imaginable'.

 

EDIT: And with that, I leave you to your debate. I have some dragon's to go slay. :p

Edited April 30, 2020 by Scribe

[Lord_Caerolion]

I mean, whole gene-lines are deemed heretical, which is why we don't see official uses of Traitor Legion geneseed. We're also assuming that the Custodes meant "traitor geneseed" as "your entire Primarch relations", and not "your Brazen Drake geneseed specifically".

[Ishagu]

@Scribe

 

You're defending poor text lol

 

This Custodes brands Imperium assets guilty by association. This Custodes is not smart. That's bad writing. If the Custodian isn't actively killing every human that exists he isn't even consistent to his own belief.

 

I mean, whole gene-lines are deemed heretical, which is why we don't see official uses of Traitor Legion geneseed. We're also assuming that the Custodes meant "traitor geneseed" as "your entire Primarch relations", and not "your Brazen Drake geneseed specifically".

Grey Shields geneseed is directly from the Primarch. These were literally Ultramarines diverted to a new chapter.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Donkey Kong]

re the story; it seems there were brazen drakes on board the ship alongside the primaris captain? it could just be poor writing, but there may be a mix of greyshield and first gen drakes together and therefore some level of prior contact and mixing between them?

 

I was under the impression that the Greyshields were separate from the Chapter.

 

You must struggle with a LOT of 40K then.

 

It's actually super easy (barely an inconvenience) when you ignore the things that you don't like.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

The problem isn’t the custodian trying to arrest them or how they reacted. It’s the custodian thinking someone who has never met someone else needs to be arrested at all. Even in the Imperium the dont exterminatus Necromunda because some colony on the Eastern Fringe joined the Tau.

 

The reaction would be the Primaris will help the Imperium fight the chapter they were supposed to join or they’d just move on and join another chapter. There’s no reason for the Primaris to care at all.

The problem with these sorts of assertions is that you're just projecting how you think the Imperium would behave as how it actually does behave. There is no objective metric. It's fine not to like the story but so many of the comments on here are like this, not really making a distinction between how you personally would like to think the characters would handle a situation VS how a writer chose to decide they would behave.

The point isn’t if the Imperium is harsh and illogical the point is no one acts like this even in totalitarian regimes.

This is just historically inaccurate, on the other hand.

Ok, find me one example where replacement units with no connection to the unit they have been assigned to IN THE FUTURE were summarily executed or imprisoned when that unit was sanctioned. Just to recap:

 

-the replacements have never been associated with unit before

-the replacements are not located or billeted with the unit

-the replacements have no contact with the unit

-the replacements have no been assigned to platoons, companies, battalions in said unit

-the replacements are coming from so far away an entire cascade into treason has occurred while they were in transit

 

Dont forget to add in the in-universe requirements as well:

-custodians executing other chapters of a Primarchs gene line because their geneseed is heretical

 

 

I’ll hold my breath.

 

 

So far the only example of totalitarian regimes doing what the custodians have done presented was

 

*checks notes*

 

The Soviet Union making examples out of traitors extended family. Which is of course entirely irrelevant to the discussion since this is about executing and imprisoning replacements with no connection to the traitors.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Ishagu]

Yes they are seperate. They were literally elements diverted from the Indomnitus Crusade to re-enforce a chapter, made with pure Ultramarines geneseed from the stores on Terra/Mars.

[mc warhammer]

You're defending poor text lol

 

This Custodes brands Imperium assets guilty by association. This Custodes is not smart. That's bad writing.

I mean, whole gene-lines are deemed heretical, which is why we don't see official uses of Traitor Legion geneseed. We're also assuming that the Custodes meant "traitor geneseed" as "your entire Primarch relations", and not "your Brazen Drake geneseed specifically".

Grey Shields geneseed is directly from the Primarch. These were literally Ultramarines diverted to a new chapter.

 

"guilty by association" tends to be an imperial way to do things though, right?

 

can anyone point me to examples of where the custodes stand against this logic? i know there were some conflicts with the high lords? the only example that comes to my mind is valdor initially cautioning russ prior to prospero. but pre heresy was a different time. any other examples?

[Ishagu]

The entire book "The Regent's Shadow" is a good example for you.

[Marshal Rohr]

Uh there’s an entire Primarchs novel about the Custodes literally starting a rebellion against the Emperor just to kill some surviving thunder warriors

 

 

I guess the Custodes need to imprison themselves

Edited April 30, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

 

 

The problem isn’t the custodian trying to arrest them or how they reacted. It’s the custodian thinking someone who has never met someone else needs to be arrested at all. Even in the Imperium the dont exterminatus Necromunda because some colony on the Eastern Fringe joined the Tau.

 

The reaction would be the Primaris will help the Imperium fight the chapter they were supposed to join or they’d just move on and join another chapter. There’s no reason for the Primaris to care at all.

The problem with these sorts of assertions is that you're just projecting how you think the Imperium would behave as how it actually does behave. There is no objective metric. It's fine not to like the story but so many of the comments on here are like this, not really making a distinction between how you personally would like to think the characters would handle a situation VS how a writer chose to decide they would behave.

The point isn’t if the Imperium is harsh and illogical the point is no one acts like this even in totalitarian regimes.

This is just historically inaccurate, on the other hand.

Ok, find me one example where replacement units with no connection to the unit they have been assigned to IN THE FUTURE were summarily executed or imprisoned when that unit was sanctioned. Just to recap:

 

-the replacements have never been associated with unit before

-the replacements are not located or billeted with the unit

-the replacements have no contact with the unit

-the replacements have no been assigned to platoons, companies, battalions in said unit

-the replacements are coming from so far away an entire cascade into treason has occurred while they were in transit

 

Dont forget to add in the in-universe requirements as well:

-custodians executing other chapters of a Primarchs gene line because their geneseed is heretical

 

 

I’ll hold my breath.

 

 

So far the only example of totalitarian regimes doing what the custodians have done presented was

 

*checks notes*

 

The Soviet Union making examples out of traitors extended family. Which is of course entirely irrelevant to the discussion since this is about executing and imprisoning replacements with no connection to the traitors.

 

Really, no one in history has been executed for guilt by association?  You can't think of any examples yourself?  Hmm......

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s not guilt by association because they aren’t associated. This isn’t even guilt by clerical error. Edited April 30, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Ishagu]

But we're not dealing with your typical, ignorant Imperial commander.

 

We are dealing with cultured students of history, acting on behalf of the greatest commander in the Imperium.

 

Can humans be stupid? Absolutely. Are Custodes stupid? They are now!

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

It’s not guilt by association because they aren’t associated. This isn’t even guilt by clerical error.

I mean I think it's pretty obvious you'll just keep moving the goal post in this discussion, but at least in the story the whole point is that the Inquisition declared the greyshields guilty by association, and the Custodes just carried out the judgement.  

[mc warhammer]

 

re the story; it seems there were brazen drakes on board the ship alongside the primaris captain? it could just be poor writing, but there may be a mix of greyshield and first gen drakes together and therefore some level of prior contact and mixing between them?

 

I was under the impression that the Greyshields were separate from the Chapter.

 

yeah, it might be that way. the author might be using greyshield and brazen drake interchangeably, which doesn't help.

 

"deliver the two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields"

 

"The Greyshields’ leader was turning, eyes widening even as Tyvar raised his guardian spear. The three Brazen Drakes who flanked him moved almost as fast"

 

it's confusingly written, though if i had to take a stance, i'd say the ship was 100% greyshield.