Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[Ishagu]

But that's the whole point. If the story was well written and consistent with the existing lore, the Custodes would be able to analyse a situation beyond the surface level.

[mc warhammer]

Uh there’s an entire Primarchs novel about the Custodes literally starting a rebellion against the Emperor just to kill some surviving thunder warriors

 

 

I guess the Custodes need to imprison themselves

sure, mate. i'm asking open sincere questions here, having admitted i haven't read as much as most...i appreciate the non snarky answers.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

It’s not guilt by association because they aren’t associated. This isn’t even guilt by clerical error.

I mean I think it's pretty obvious you'll just keep moving the goal post in this discussion, but at least in the story the whole point is that the Inquisition declared the greyshields guilty by association, and the Custodes just carried out the judgement.

 

Your personal failure to grasp that these Primaris were merely assigned to this chapter is not moving the goalposts.

 

 

Uh there’s an entire Primarchs novel about the Custodes literally starting a rebellion against the Emperor just to kill some surviving thunder warriors

 

 

I guess the Custodes need to imprison themselves

sure, mate. i'm asking open sincere questions here, having admitted i haven't read as much as most...i appreciate the non snarky answers.

I wasn’t being snarky. I’m flabbergasted people are defending this as plausible.

[mc warhammer]

The entire book "The Regent's Shadow" is a good example for you.

are you able to give relevant context? i won't get around to that for ages.

[Donkey Kong]

I expect that stupidity from all sorts of Imperium elements. Not these guys, however. Such a silly plot.

 

I don't even expect this level of stupidity from a meme commissar.

[Ishagu]

 

 

The entire book "The Regent's Shadow" is a good example for you.

are you able to give relevant context? i won't get around to that for ages.

Not without spoilers.

 

Safe to say the Custodes don't exterminate an Astartes chapter that commits DIRECT Heresy on Terra itself because they know there is more at play.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

The entire book "The Regent's Shadow" is a good example for you.

are you able to give relevant context? i won't get around to that for ages.

Not without spoilers.

 

Safe to say the Custodes don't exterminate an Astartes chapter that commits DIRECT Heresy on Terra itself because they know there is more at play.

 

oh

the minotaurs

stuff?

I wasn’t being snarky. I’m flabbergasted people are defending this as plausible.

 

my bad, guess i'll go imprison myself

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

The entire book "The Regent's Shadow" is a good example for you.

are you able to give relevant context? i won't get around to that for ages.

Not without spoilers.

 

Safe to say the Custodes don't exterminate an Astartes chapter that commits DIRECT Heresy on Terra itself because they know there is more at play.

oh

the minotaurs

stuff?

I wasn’t being snarky. I’m flabbergasted people are defending this as plausible.

 

my bad, guess i'll go imprison myself

You shouldn’t imprison yourself because you’re a real person that has real reactions to things ;) Edited April 30, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

 

 

It’s not guilt by association because they aren’t associated. This isn’t even guilt by clerical error.

I mean I think it's pretty obvious you'll just keep moving the goal post in this discussion, but at least in the story the whole point is that the Inquisition declared the greyshields guilty by association, and the Custodes just carried out the judgement.

 

Your personal failure to grasp that these Primaris were merely assigned to this chapter is not moving the goalposts.

 

Lol I COMPLETELY understand that the greyshields could easily be construed as innocent and not actually guilty of heresy here.  

 

I can accept what you seemingly cannot, which is thatthey might be deemed guilty by the actors in the story REGARDLESS of their innocence or guilt.  The story affirms one of the central themes of 40k, which is the dystopian dysfunction of of the culture of the Imperium.  It seems like you want to believe that things like Exterminatus can somehow be justified in this fictional setting, but somehow a few innocent soldiers being declared heretic by association (regardless of whether they are actually associated--thats sort of how that sort of accusation works--) is somehow beyond the pale, which is a really weird thing to be declaring unrealistic given everything else that we know about the setting and the Imperium.  

[Ishagu]

The Imperium's culture doesn't apply to the Custodes. That's the point and reason why this story is a failure.

 

If the Custodes can allow a chapter to continue after committing direct Heresy on Terra itself because they can understand the big picture, they can allow precious Imperium assets a pass for loosely associated guilt.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

The Imperium's culture doesn't apply to the Custodes. That's the point and reason why this story is a failure.

 

If the Custodes can allow a chapter to continue after committing Direct Heresy on Terra because they can understand the big picture, they can allow precious Imperium assets a pass for loosely associated guilt.

"There are no good guys in 40k.  Except Custodes."

 

-Ishagu

[Ishagu]

Never says they are good. I said they aren't stupid.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Never says they are good. I said they aren't stupid.

[Ishagu]

Good and Stupid are different things, you know that right?

One is a measure of morality, the other a measure of intelligence.

 

It's not smart to waste your own high value assets. Yes, stupid people have done so in the past. The established lore and multiple recent novels tell us Custodes are cultured warrior scholars and masters of politics, history, diplomacy and negotiations. It doesn't tell us they are stupid.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Donkey Kong]

 

 

 

It’s not guilt by association because they aren’t associated. This isn’t even guilt by clerical error.

I mean I think it's pretty obvious you'll just keep moving the goal post in this discussion, but at least in the story the whole point is that the Inquisition declared the greyshields guilty by association, and the Custodes just carried out the judgement.

 

Your personal failure to grasp that these Primaris were merely assigned to this chapter is not moving the goalposts.

 

Lol I COMPLETELY understand that the greyshields could easily be construed as innocent and not actually guilty of heresy here.  

 

I can accept what you seemingly cannot, which is thatthey might be deemed guilty by the actors in the story REGARDLESS of their innocence or guilt.  The story affirms one of the central themes of 40k, which is the dystopian dysfunction of of the culture of the Imperium.  It seems like you want to believe that things like Exterminatus can somehow be justified in this fictional setting, but somehow a few innocent soldiers being declared heretic by association (regardless of whether they are actually associated--thats sort of how that sort of accusation works--) is somehow beyond the pale, which is a really weird thing to be declaring unrealistic given everything else that we know about the setting and the Imperium.  

 

I understood exterminatus to be a scorched earth strategy, a justifiable move to deny resources. This is "two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields" in a universe where, to the best of my knowledge, a single company is a sufficient strength to turn the tide of a war if not outright conquer worlds. Put another way, I expect a Space Marine company to be more valuable than most any singular world.

 

Seconding Ishagu, good and stupid different metrics. I expect Imperials in positions of power to be prudent.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Good and Stupid are different things, you know that right?

One is a measure of morality, the other a measure of intelligence.

 

It's not smart to waste your own high value assets. Yes, stupid people have done so in the past. The established lore and multiple recent novels tell us Custodes are cultured warrior scholars and masters of politics, history, diplomacy and negotiations. It doesn't tell us they are stupid.

I guess I'm open to the idea that characters, even smart ones, will do stupid things depending on the circumstances.  And it's not even 100% clear Tyvar was being stupid, which is what is cool about the story; it creates a tension for the reader's perception of the events based on limited information.   

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

 

 

 

 

It’s not guilt by association because they aren’t associated. This isn’t even guilt by clerical error.

I mean I think it's pretty obvious you'll just keep moving the goal post in this discussion, but at least in the story the whole point is that the Inquisition declared the greyshields guilty by association, and the Custodes just carried out the judgement.

 

Your personal failure to grasp that these Primaris were merely assigned to this chapter is not moving the goalposts.

 

Lol I COMPLETELY understand that the greyshields could easily be construed as innocent and not actually guilty of heresy here.  

 

I can accept what you seemingly cannot, which is thatthey might be deemed guilty by the actors in the story REGARDLESS of their innocence or guilt.  The story affirms one of the central themes of 40k, which is the dystopian dysfunction of of the culture of the Imperium.  It seems like you want to believe that things like Exterminatus can somehow be justified in this fictional setting, but somehow a few innocent soldiers being declared heretic by association (regardless of whether they are actually associated--thats sort of how that sort of accusation works--) is somehow beyond the pale, which is a really weird thing to be declaring unrealistic given everything else that we know about the setting and the Imperium.  

 

I understood exterminatus to be a scorched earth strategy, a justifiable move to deny resources. This is "two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields" in a universe where, to the best of my knowledge, a single company is a sufficient strength to turn the tide of a war if not outright conquer worlds. Put another way, I expect a Space Marine company to be more valuable than most any singular world.

 

Seconding Ishagu, good and stupid different metrics. I expect Imperials in positions of power to be prudent.

 

See, this is why this thread keeps drawing me in and honestly has me a little disturbed.  Exterminatus is not justifiable under any circumstances, and the fact that it get employed in this setting should be a really big flashing red sign that you shouldn't be trying to project our own culture's morality on a satirical fascistic setting, or try to rationalize things like blowing up whole planets.  And there are whole plot lines showing that the employment of exterminatus is not always seen as justifiable even to whole factions within the 40k setting.  

 

I'm not really sure what to say here other than that your comment is genuinely disturbing to me.  

I'd also say that it's not my intention to justify the Custodes actions, which do strike me as severe and unfair.  I just think that given how awful everything about the Imperium is, it shouldn't surprise anyone that he acts as he does.  

[Volt]

What I don't understand about the backlash this story is getting is that this a setting where whole WORLDS are condemned to death, where countless millions are declared heretic and genocided, and this is a situation so much smaller, and it really seemed to touch a nerve with some folks.  There's that Stalin quote: a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.  That really seems apt to the discussion going on here.

 

I'll reiterate that I actually really like the story, and thought it was a nice corrective to the generally overly heroic tone set by a lot of recent lore; the roots of 40k are deeply satirical and cutting, and the core of the narrative is that dogma and religious fervor won out over the Emperor's wish to create an essentially secular empire.  Having a Custodes, one of the Emperors sons, act in such a viscerally horrific way that violates our own sense of morality and fairness is an excellent depiction that I think re-centers the warped morality at the heart of the Imperium.  It also mirrors the ruthless prosecution of the Emperor himself, who was not above similar scourings of legions when they went "astray" of his wishes.  

 

We can all disagree about how this whole scene played out and how it reflects on what we think these characters are like or should be like, but I was actually relieved to see something like this put out by GW, because I see the whole setting as deeply fascistic, and I feel like that can get glossed over a bit too much sometimes.  

Exterminatus is a utilitarian decision based on measuring the likely death toll and military threat posed by a single world being destroyed compared to the weight of the losses suffered from either daemonic invasion, continued waves of Orks spawning, or Tyranids sucking up the biomass of the world to bolster a hive's strength. Rarely does it come from any emotional response, and it is both rare and carefully considered whenever it is deemed warranted by the Inquisitors, Admirals, or Astartes. And when it's improperly used it typically gets the user hauled up for a tribunal by some other subfaction (or even their own, in the case of the Inquisition) and suffering severe penalization. It's dark, but it's also rational.

 

Consequences wasn't grimdark or rational, It was stupid, exceptionally so, and completely out of character considering that Custodes are supposed to be mostly emotionless drones of the Emperor steeped in high education for much of their lives. As I've said multiple times before, there wasn't a situation at the start of the story. Instead of defusing a situation, the Shield-Captain goes on to instigate a situation, and persistently escalate it until it blows up in a horrendous screwup that should see his head rolling for squandering resources and endangering the very person he's supposed to protect. It's not just not doing your job, it's being so bad at your job that everybody would have been better off if the character had been stillborn.

[mc warhammer]

looking forward to reading "regent's shadow" to get more insight.

 

on a tangent, a custodian's view of logic might be imprinted by the emperor. i get the impression that He's their model and inspiration. so His ideas of tolerance and diplomacy are theirs. and we all know how much debate there is over that.

 

i'm actually more curious than ever now to see if this goes anywhere. are we potentially witnessing the beginnings of a future schism within the imperium? are dessima and tyvar an example of a new extremism amongst extremists? things turning against primaris and guilliman amongst their allies? or is it all gonna be swept under the carpet?

[Volt]

See, this is why this thread keeps drawing me in and honestly has me a little disturbed.  Exterminatus is not justifiable under any circumstances, and the fact that it get employed in this setting should be a really big flashing red sign that you shouldn't be trying to project our own culture's morality on a satirical fascistic setting, or try to rationalize things like blowing up whole planets.  And there are whole plot lines showing that the employment of exterminatus is not always seen as justifiable even to whole factions within the 40k setting.  

 

 

 

 

I'm not really sure what to say here other than that your comment is genuinely disturbing to me.  

I'd also say that it's not my intention to justify the Custodes actions, which do strike me as severe and unfair.  I just think that given how awful everything about the Imperium is, it shouldn't surprise anyone that he acts as he does.  

 

 

Exterminatus is completely justifiable in dire situation and completely rational. There is a situation developing wherein either 1 billion people die or you kill 100 million to defuse the horribly dire situation. Thus you kill 100 million to preserve the billion. It's not pretty or good in the sense of being an ideal, but it is very functional. You seem to however be operating from a viewpoint IRL as a Deontologist, which would explain the moral divide in your opinion (deontology is more or less about non-negotiable lines in the sand, which are never to be crossed even on pain of death in extreme cases).

 

[Donkey Kong]

See, this is why this thread keeps drawing me in and honestly has me a little disturbed.  Exterminatus is not justifiable under any circumstances, and the fact that it get employed in this setting should be a really big flashing red sign that you shouldn't be trying to project our own culture's morality on a satirical fascistic setting, or try to rationalize things like blowing up whole planets.  And there are whole plot lines showing that the employment of exterminatus is not always seen as justifiable even to whole factions within the 40k setting.  

 

I'm not really sure what to say here other than that your comment is genuinely disturbing to me.  

I'd also say that it's not my intention to justify the Custodes actions, which do strike me as severe and unfair.  I just think that given how awful everything about the Imperium is, it shouldn't surprise anyone that he acts as he does.  

 

In the real world, I agree that mass genocide is morally reprehensible. But we're not talking about the real world. I don't need to repeat Volt's in universe justifications.

 

I like it when 40k gets played straight. A key part of committing to the bit is that characters still behave in a way that makes sense.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

 

See, this is why this thread keeps drawing me in and honestly has me a little disturbed.  Exterminatus is not justifiable under any circumstances, and the fact that it get employed in this setting should be a really big flashing red sign that you shouldn't be trying to project our own culture's morality on a satirical fascistic setting, or try to rationalize things like blowing up whole planets.  And there are whole plot lines showing that the employment of exterminatus is not always seen as justifiable even to whole factions within the 40k setting.  

 

 

 

 

I'm not really sure what to say here other than that your comment is genuinely disturbing to me.  

I'd also say that it's not my intention to justify the Custodes actions, which do strike me as severe and unfair.  I just think that given how awful everything about the Imperium is, it shouldn't surprise anyone that he acts as he does.  

 

 

Exterminatus is completely justifiable in dire situation and completely rational. There is a situation developing wherein either 1 billion people die or you kill 100 million to defuse the horribly dire situation. Thus you kill 100 million to preserve the billion. It's not pretty or good in the sense of being an ideal, but it is very functional. You seem to however be operating from a viewpoint IRL as a Deontologist, which would explain the moral divide in your opinion (deontology is more or less about non-negotiable lines in the sand, which are never to be crossed even on pain of death in extreme cases).

 

 

Sorry, but the Imperium is not a rational entity, and hasn't been since the heresy, if it ever was.  And my point was that in a setting where such measures are considered, nothing in this story should be ruled out as implausible.  It's as if people haven't considered that the stupidity and futility of how it plays out might have been the author's point?

 

See, this is why this thread keeps drawing me in and honestly has me a little disturbed.  Exterminatus is not justifiable under any circumstances, and the fact that it get employed in this setting should be a really big flashing red sign that you shouldn't be trying to project our own culture's morality on a satirical fascistic setting, or try to rationalize things like blowing up whole planets.  And there are whole plot lines showing that the employment of exterminatus is not always seen as justifiable even to whole factions within the 40k setting.  

 

I'm not really sure what to say here other than that your comment is genuinely disturbing to me.  

I'd also say that it's not my intention to justify the Custodes actions, which do strike me as severe and unfair.  I just think that given how awful everything about the Imperium is, it shouldn't surprise anyone that he acts as he does.  

 

In the real world, I agree that mass genocide is morally reprehensible. But we're not talking about the real world. I don't need to repeat Volt's in universe justifications.

 

I like it when 40k gets played straight. A key part of committing to the bit is that characters still behave in a way that makes sense.

 

OK sure, I guess I just prefer to keep the satire front and center, and think the story does that well.  

[mc warhammer]

i think my attraction to 40k is a bit like @inquistor eisenhorn's where the themes are the most important layer to me

 

that, and i prefer stories about characters i can't relate to or fathom. weird, i know

[Volt]

 

 

See, this is why this thread keeps drawing me in and honestly has me a little disturbed.  Exterminatus is not justifiable under any circumstances, and the fact that it get employed in this setting should be a really big flashing red sign that you shouldn't be trying to project our own culture's morality on a satirical fascistic setting, or try to rationalize things like blowing up whole planets.  And there are whole plot lines showing that the employment of exterminatus is not always seen as justifiable even to whole factions within the 40k setting.  

 

 

 

 

I'm not really sure what to say here other than that your comment is genuinely disturbing to me.  

I'd also say that it's not my intention to justify the Custodes actions, which do strike me as severe and unfair.  I just think that given how awful everything about the Imperium is, it shouldn't surprise anyone that he acts as he does.  

 

 

Exterminatus is completely justifiable in dire situation and completely rational. There is a situation developing wherein either 1 billion people die or you kill 100 million to defuse the horribly dire situation. Thus you kill 100 million to preserve the billion. It's not pretty or good in the sense of being an ideal, but it is very functional. You seem to however be operating from a viewpoint IRL as a Deontologist, which would explain the moral divide in your opinion (deontology is more or less about non-negotiable lines in the sand, which are never to be crossed even on pain of death in extreme cases).

 

 

Sorry, but the Imperium is not a rational entity, and hasn't been since the heresy, if it ever was.  And my point was that in a setting where such measures are considered, nothing in this story should be ruled out as implausible.  It's as if people haven't considered that the stupidity and futility of how it plays out might have been the author's point

 

 

That's great, then use an actual faction that actually engages in such behavior like the Inquisition, which would be par for the course. The Custodes aren't that however and are not even representative of the Imperium - they're separate. The backlash is because the author quite clearly took a faction which doesn't operate like that, then forcibly warps them to behave like that in a way that breaks their characterization. Custodes are not zealous crusaders or even terribly wrathful entities. They're emotionally stunted to the point of being unnerving to be around, and remain chill in about any situation. A Shield-Captain flipping out of whack because a Primaris Marine didn't immediately drop their guns when told to because the Shield-Captain just had a stroke and accused a party hundreds of lightyears removed from any heresy, of heresy, is not at all consistent with their characterization. It makes the character out to be an idiot. It reeks of an author being told to make something happen (Renegade Primaris), and then crudely smashing two characters together as coming up with an actual reason would be too much work.

[Phoebus]

What is "logical" is such a pointless discussion to pursue here.  People still think there is some sort of objective "logic" they can appeal to to justify what are essentially their own preferences of how the setting should be. 

I’m not trying to appeal to objective logic. Nor am I trying to be authoritarian about how this universe and its denizens work. If I’m appealing to any logic, it’s that which I believe should be exercised by a specific character from a specific story, relative to what I have come to expect from members of his institution. With that in mind, again, Clark himself indicated Tyvar wasn’t being logical.

 

The problem with these sorts of assertions is that you're just projecting how you think the Imperium would behave as how it actually does behave.  There is no objective metric.  It's fine not to like the story but so many of the comments on here are like this, not really making a distinction between how you personally would like to think the characters would handle a situation VS how a writer chose to decide they would behave.

I think it’s more accurate to say that many of the arguments in question assert that the behavior in question, while apropos of the Imperium in a broad sense, is not the best fit for every one of its institutions.

 

Or perhaps, as a Custode, he already knows all about the many many many Chapters of Ultramarine stock that have gone rogue or full on traitor over the 100's if not 1000's of years of his existence, and knows with the access that only a Custode of high rank would have, exactly how many Ultramarines actually went traitor?

 

Maybe, hes simply tired of the boys in blue going Traitor, and this is just one more example out of a long history of sedition?

...

You must struggle with a LOT of 40K then.

To your first point, I would argue that’s the kind of context that needs to be provided by the author.

 

To your second point, and speaking only for myself, it’s usually not a struggle. So much of the Imperium is a dystopian mess whose total brainwashing is enforced by fears of existential threats, and so I expect its regents and so many of its agents to do awful things — in a ham-fisted manner or otherwise. Not every story is of equal quality, though, and many of them are guilty of the same thing: conveyIng a theme at the expense of nuance.

 

but aren't there examples of certain factions within the imperium believing gene-seed can be heretical? guilliman hasn't allowed the traitor gene-seeds to fill the primaris ranks.

 

the reaction to garro, the eisenstein crew, the crusader host, etc implies a certain distrust that could be extended to genetics.

...

re the story; it seems there were brazen drakes on board the ship alongside the primaris captain? it could just be poor writing, but there may be a mix of greyshield and first gen drakes together and therefore some level of prior contact and mixing between them?

To your first point, you have to accept that there are levels to what you describe. I’m not sure it’s ever qualified or even implied in those novels that the Space Marines in question are treated thusly because of genetics. Psykers, by contrast, are an obvious exception to this, obviously, as more than one primarch openly considers them a danger. But obviously this only goes so far. I don’t believe the failures or treacherous of Chapters from the 3rd-26th Foundings have ever been held against a First Founding Chapter (whether they themselves feel shame is another matter altogether). Probably the most pertinent example I can think of involves the Unforgiven: the High Lords of Terra outright distrusted the Dark Angels and their Successors for millennia, but did no more than limit the number of Chapters they created from their gene-seed.

 

To your second point, what you describe above, along with some massaging of the dialogue. would have made the story far better — in my humble opinion.

 

Is it rubbish? Are you going to pretend that Ultramarine stock doesnt go rogue?

Of course it does, and the capacity for Astartes to rebel informs why some Custodes keep them literally and symbolically at spear’s length. Does that translate to a presumption of guilt and the decision-making Tyvar demonstrates? Should it? If it does, wouldn’t including that perspective benefit the story?

 

It’s possible this particular dude thinks all astartes should be wiped out full stop and is taking part in this whole primaris business against his better judgement  and is actively looking for reasons to trash as many of them as possible.

i mean, custodes tend to imagine murdering space marines quite a bit.

 

if that was the case though, a bit more of a hint from the author and GW to that end would have been nice

Exactly this.

 

I guess I'm open to the idea that characters, even smart ones, will do stupid things depending on the circumstances.  And it's not even 100% clear Tyvar was being stupid, which is what is cool about the story; it creates a tension for the reader's perception of the events based on limited information.   

For what it’s worth, and this is assuming you don’t subscribe to Death of the Author, Clark himself qualifies that Tyvar was being less than logical.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Phoebus