Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[mc warhammer]

 

 

but aren't there examples of certain factions within the imperium believing gene-seed can be heretical? guilliman hasn't allowed the traitor gene-seeds to fill the primaris ranks.

 

the reaction to garro, the eisenstein crew, the crusader host, etc implies a certain distrust that could be extended to genetics.

...

re the story; it seems there were brazen drakes on board the ship alongside the primaris captain? it could just be poor writing, but there may be a mix of greyshield and first gen drakes together and therefore some level of prior contact and mixing between them?

To your first point, you have to accept that there are levels to what you describe.

 

 

100% in agreement, mate. not only do i accept that, it's what i was trying to communicate. i mentioned 3 different examples each with their own specific context in response to the point blank position that 'gene-seed isn't heretical. i even stressed the word "could".  i'd hope that would be seen as "levels"? by the same token, the inference in-universe that traitor gene-seed should be used or perhaps already is in use without harm, is every bit as acceptable.

Edited April 30, 2020 by mc warhammer

[b1soul]

Traitor geneseed is off-limits

 

...but loyalist geneseed (with all these renegade chapters running around) is not held to be traitorous based on the geneseed itself. That's the actual practice of the Imperium.

 

Tyvar's words imply that all the Loyalist genelines should be sanctioned based on the myriad renegade chapters possessing their geneseed. Even hardcore Inquisitorial nutcases haven't gone there.

 

To make this more logical, maybe geneseed has diverged within genelines over the years. So BT and IF geneseeds are like species within the same genus. I dunno...the story just gives us a one-liner that's silly on its face

[Lord_Caerolion]

I just interpret it as "geneseed of the Brazen Drakes", basically using it as another word for "family", instead of "every Marine using Guilliman's geneseed", etc.

[b1soul]

Odd for Custodes to assume these Primaris Greyshields would have tainted geneseed, or that geneseed is even the root cause of the original Drakes' actions.

 

I think a renegade Primaris novel would sell like hotcakes... would be a better way to introduce them, rather than a slap-dash story.

 

EDIT: Would probably make a great post-Indomitus series actually

Edited April 30, 2020 by b1soul

[Kelborn]

Well, for a free short story, it did gave birth to a wild and long (the heck, two pages within a couple of hours?!) discussion.

 

I've seen some good points and some ranting but overall a general talk about Custodes, the Imperium and its institutions instead of the short itself.

 

Think that we should move on and continue in a more appropiate part of this forum and leave it behind in the BL focused subforum.

 

The Amicus Aedes seems suitable for me for this debate of principles.

[Scribe]

Uh there’s an entire Primarchs novel about the Custodes literally starting a rebellion against the Emperor just to kill some surviving thunder warriors

 

 

I guess the Custodes need to imprison themselves

 

Negative, what you are outlining is hypocrisy. That would ALSO be perfectly in line with 'we are an Imperial faction' thinking and behavior.

[Scribe]

 

Of course it does, and the capacity for Astartes to rebel informs why some Custodes keep them literally and symbolically at spear’s length. Does that translate to a presumption of guilt and the decision-making Tyvar demonstrates? Should it? If it does, wouldn’t including that perspective benefit the story?

 

 

Well, but he does. The Custode actually says it in the piece.

 

Would the story benefit from being longer? Absolutely. Would it be good to understand more about the characters history and experiences? Sure.

 

Did the Author (in the Twitter link you gave me) not say 'there is a history of mistrust toward Astartes?' He absolutely did.

 

All in all. People dont like it, can think its GrimDerp, or whatever, but the story has a plainly logical progression, and by EVERYTHING WE UNDERSTAND OF THE IMPERIUM, the response to the Astartes protest is easily justified.

[Robbienw]

The Custodes aren't the literal voice of the Emperor, nor do they officially supercede an Astartes Chapter Master, though of course they command more respect.

 

They are and they do though.

 

Remember it was the Custodes who were forcing primaris on reluctanct chapters, on pain of being declared traitors and destroyed...

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

He didnt. He gave them 2 chances. Is he supposed to ask nicely next time and articulate to ASTARTES (you know the beings we believe to have logic/reasoning ability far more advanced than ourselves) that

 

'hey guys I know maybe/probably you are not traitor, but you see..you have this iconography, you clearly had some contact with this Chapter, and well...look they blew up your adopted homeworld, so like can we just be reasonable here and lay down your weapons so we can have a chat?

 

Oh and linda, fire up my shuttle, I have a war to go win."

 

 

No, he's 'supposed' to ask nicely the first time. Because that's how you diffuse (or just don't crate in the first place) tense situations. Once again, the issue isn't 'the Imperium should be nice' or 'if you don't like this story you don't understand 40k' or anything like that. It's that Tyvar in this story is portrayed as an idiot with a chip on his shoulder.

 

It's also not clear that Gerion's men had had prior contact with the Brazen Drakes. That's a lot of weight to hang on one sword hilt (which could just as easily be newly forged based on Imperial records rather than direct contact).

 

The core issue remains that the fluff claims Custodes are these enlightened (by Imperial standards, obviously) polymath super-superhuman geniuses, with specific training in diplomacy. But this story gives us a command level Custodes who acts more like a parody of a Commissar.

 

 

 

EDIT: The more I re-read it, its not the Custode at all that is the issue. Asartes of all beings should know to sit down, and shut up, when told. Follow your orders. You are psycho-indoctrinated FOR A REASON.

What? Astartes are consistently portrayed in the fluff as the opposite of the 'sit down and shut up' mentality when dealing with external 'authorities'. If there's one Imperial archetype that will argue back it's Astartes Commanders, because of their traditional autonomy within the mad feudal structure of the Imperium. And the Custodes should know this, if they're half as smart as the wider fluff claims they are.

 

 

Disobedience, is treason.This is Warhammer 40,0000.

Which is why the likes of the Lamenters, Mantis Warriors, Executioners and Minotaurs were all exterminated by the Imperium for acts of treason (the Minotaurs even fought the Custodes on Terra itself). Except that didn't happen, because 40k isn't automatically that brutally stupid. Once again, the Astral Claws, after over a decade of open, armed rebellion, got a more nuanced and merciful reaction than Gerion's men, who went from 'everything's fine' to 'summary execution' in 84 words.

[N1SB]

 

 

 

All in all. People dont like it, can think its GrimDerp, or whatever, but the story has a plainly logical progression, and by EVERYTHING WE UNDERSTAND OF THE IMPERIUM, the response to the Astartes protest is easily justified.

 

 

GrimDerp is exactly my approach to The Hobby.  I didn't know there was a term for it.

 

Because 40k's Imperium is really just a parody of everything the Emperor envisioned for it back in 30k.

 

That framework simultaneously makes the entire thing both more comedic AND tragic.

[Robbienw]

 

 

Which is why the likes of the Lamenters, Mantis Warriors, Executioners and Minotaurs were all exterminated by the Imperium for acts of treason (the Minotaurs even fought the Custodes on Terra itself). Except that didn't happen, because 40k isn't automatically that brutally stupid. Once again, the Astral Claws, after over a decade of open, armed rebellion, got a more nuanced and merciful reaction than Gerion's men, who went from 'everything's fine' to 'summary execution' in 84 words.

 

 

The Custodes were still on Terra then, they weren't involved.  Their reaction may well have been harsher.  Remember the Great Rift has opened since then, and things have got even more desperate.

[Ishagu]

The events with the Minotaurs on Terra happened after the Great rift opened, and some had already joined Guilliman on the Crusade. Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[Phoebus]

Well, but he does. The Custode actually says it in the piece.

 

Would the story benefit from being longer? Absolutely. Would it be good to understand more about the characters history and experiences? Sure.

 

Did the Author (in the Twitter link you gave me) not say 'there is a history of mistrust toward Astartes?' He absolutely did.

That’s the thing: you say that perspective is in there, but also acknowledge that the story would benefit from more context... which is one of the points I keep raising. With that in mind, I’m not sure that anyone is questioning whether a Custodian should or should not distrust an Astartes. We’re debating the manner in which that distrust manifested.

 

Well, for a free short story, it did gave birth to a wild and long (the heck, two pages within a couple of hours?!) discussion.

 

I've seen some good points and some ranting but overall a general talk about Custodes, the Imperium and its institutions instead of the short itself.

For what it’s worth, I think the discussion about said institutions nonetheless focused — for the most part — on the actions of the story’s cast.

 

On a side note, while we’ve had a fairly civil debate here there must have been some pretty violent backlash elsewhere: Andy Clark’s name was pulled of “Consequences” (though not from other stories under the Psychic Awakening website). Whatever I feel about that story, that sort of thing sucks.

[Donkey Kong]

It's also not clear that Gerion's men had had prior contact with the Brazen Drakes. That's a lot of weight to hang on one sword hilt (which could just as easily be newly forged based on Imperial records rather than direct contact).

 

Gerion's "drake-embossed power sword"  doesn't even get mentioned until after the shooting starts. It was such a small and passing detail that I didn't even remember it, albeit one that could have given this story some much needed context if focus was put on it earlier.

 

 

Instead of saying for the umpteenth that Tyvar is dumb, I'll try and map out how the story could have worked for me with the understanding that we need a force of primaris space marines to go renegade.

 

First, the scene needs to be set. Who is where in what strength. All we're told is that this is a "fleet carrying the Brazen Drakes to meet their battle-brothers" so a minimum of two ships ferrying "two whole companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields". So, Captain Gerion and his command squad are on ship 1 with Tyvar and Dessima. ships 2+ have another 200ish primaris space marines. I don't have any context for how many Silent Sisters or Custodians are supposed to be here  or anywhere, but it's probably a fair assumption that there are fewer of them than the space marines. This whole affair might be more trouble than it's worth, but without it we don't know the full scale of what has been lost when Gerion orders the Greyshields to "'[....]seize the fleet!'"

 

Our specific scene is the bridge or CIC of Tyvar's ship. The opening in medias res should not be "'Apprehend these traitors.'" and should instead either be a message from an Ordo Heretic Inquisitor declaring the Brazen  Drakes Chapter "Hereticus Diabolus Extremis" followed immediately by the image of Khassedur in ruins or vice versa. Give a throwaway line for Tyvar to have trust in this particular Inquisitor.

 

Gerion and his (assume a command squad so 5ish) brothers leap to the console or dias or whatever you want to call the big hologram table that's presumably in the middle of the bridge or CIC in any combination of heated emotions (shock, anger, disbelief, etc.). The Greyshields protest "This is a mistake." "Inquisitor so and so is a liar." "Blah, Blah, Blah."

 

Tyvar orders Gerion and the other space marines to stand down, he's going to have to investigate. Gerion protests "We cannot abandon our brothers." Emphasize the feelings of fraternity between the Brazen Drakes Greyshields and the Brazen Drakes. Needless to say, in this version of the story, quite possibly the only reasonable line from the original "'These sins are not ours to account for![....]'" is out. The thought does not occur to the Greyshield Space Marines to admit or accept that the Brazen Drakes have turned traitor. There are not yet any sins to account for.

 

In this version of the story, Tyvar is the one that attempts to defuse the situation while the Greyshields are the ones escalating. The opposite of Tyvar and Gerion in the story. Tyvar orders the Greyshields to stand down a second time, "I don't repeat myself." "If you don't, you will be declared traitors as well."

 

Gerion and the Greyshields go for their weapons. Make a point to emphasize the Greyshields wearing Brazen Drakes colors or carrying weapons with Chapter Heraldry. They already have been indoctrinated to a degree into the Chapter's culture regardless of whether  or  not they've ever fought alongside  their Brazen Drake brothers before. This is important. Tyvar notices them make moves and then attacks. Tyvar still shoots first, but it's because of a perceived physical threat, not a verbal protest.

 

The battle goes on from there. I think it might make for a better story if Brazen Drake Greyshields overpower the Custodians and Sisters, like a few squads break their way to the bridge to rescue Gerion and his command squad and force the Talons of the Emperor to withdraw. It might also be a nitpick, but I'd make a point of how the characters are armed. Tyvar has his guardian spear as a symbol of office in addition to being a weapon. Dessima's sword is also presumably equally ceremonial as well as functional.  The Primaris Space Marines should not have more than sidearms (heavy bolt pistol, close combat weapon, maybe Gerion has a power sword). I don't know why a space marine would be carrying around a bolt rifle while hanging out on the bridge/CIC. This also makes it more dramatic when the Brazen Drakes come crashing in with a hail of bolt rifle fire.

 

At this point I still don't know what the Talons force looks like. How many Custodians? How many Sisters? Do they have the strength to fight back against 200ish Primaris Space Marines? And then with their traitor battle brothers to reinforce them?

 

Anyway, that's how the story may have made more sense to me. But, then we'd probably be talking about how Gerion's uncharacteristically stupid.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

Well, but he does. The Custode actually says it in the piece.

 

Would the story benefit from being longer? Absolutely. Would it be good to understand more about the characters history and experiences? Sure.

 

Did the Author (in the Twitter link you gave me) not say 'there is a history of mistrust toward Astartes?' He absolutely did.

That’s the thing: you say that perspective is in there, but also acknowledge that the story would benefit from more context... which is one of the points I keep raising. With that in mind, I’m not sure that anyone is questioning whether a Custodian should or should not distrust an Astartes. We’re debating the manner in which that distrust manifested.

Well, for a free short story, it did gave birth to a wild and long (the heck, two pages within a couple of hours?!) discussion.

 

I've seen some good points and some ranting but overall a general talk about Custodes, the Imperium and its institutions instead of the short itself.

For what it’s worth, I think the discussion about said institutions nonetheless focused — for the most part — on the actions of the story’s cast.

 

On a side note, while we’ve had a fairly civil debate here there must have been some pretty violent backlash elsewhere: Andy Clark’s name was pulled of “Consequences” (though not from other stories under the Psychic Awakening website). Whatever I feel about that story, that sort of thing sucks.

yay time to reopen the toxic fandom thread

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The Primaris Space Marines should not have more than sidearms (heavy bolt pistol, close combat weapon, maybe Gerion has a power sword). I don't know why a space marine would be carrying around a bolt rifle while hanging out on the bridge/CIC. This also makes it more dramatic when the Brazen Drakes come crashing in with a hail of bolt rifle fire.

To be fair here, most fluff has Marines going about pretty much fully armed at all times, so having these Primaris with their longarms isn't unusual. If anything only carrying sidearms would be the stranger situation.

[jaxom]

The Custodes aren't the literal voice of the Emperor, nor do they officially supercede an Astartes Chapter Master, though of course they command more respect.

 

They also know better than to kill everything or anger opposition further at the first sign of questioning. That's called being a good diplomat.

 

If anyone is the voice of the Emperor that would be the Imperial Regent, and he certainly wouldn't waste resources like this.

 

Regarding the authority of the Custodes and their role as the Emperor's Voice:

 

Magisterium: Lex Ultima (authority within accorded duty incontestable except by the direct and expressed word of the Master of Mankind). [HH7: Inferno]

One of the singular features of the Legio Custodes as an organisation and the power of individual Custodians, is their scheme in the place of the Imperium's law... the Legio Custodes are alone officially afforded the 'Magisterium Lex Ultima' in the high form, which is to say they are beyond all law and law command save for the direct authority of the Emperor Himself. In addition to this, each one is a lord of the Imperium in their own right.

[The Misericordia] came to represent the complete power of life and death.... When the Emperor came to mastery of Terra... His agents and judges, and only they, came to carry the Misericordia as His mastery eclipsed all others, and it is a tradition the Legio Custodes still uphold.

All of the above are from Horus Heresy: Inferno. And from Codex: Adeptus Custodes, in relation to the Emissaries Imperatus (who are accompanying the Torchbearer fleets):

It is a duty they fulfill now, speaking with the authority of the Master of Mankind himself.

they bear the Emperor's words across the Imperium

The quote from one is exactly the opposite of diplomatic - is a declaration: shut up, do what you're told, or be branded traitors. The emissary is not a diplomat, the emissary is a herald.

"Silence your questions and instead rejoice at the honour done to you this day. You are handed the gift of hope by the immortal Master of Mankind, and you will accept it with sincere and solemn gratitude lest you be taken for the traitors that you profess to hate."

I added emphasis on these two points because they're along the same lines that are in Consequences. The Custodes is not interested in dialogue, but goes straight to "do it or you're traitors," and that's towards a Chapter that hasn't been declared Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.

 

I'd also like to reiterate how insidious Chaos taint can be - a training manual given to Greyshields to teach them about their new Chapter could be enough to plant the seeds of heresy. The Custodes are still dealing with the consequences of that particular messed up on the Phalanx.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

The Custodes aren't the literal voice of the Emperor, nor do they officially supercede an Astartes Chapter Master, though of course they command more respect.

 

They are and they do though.

 

Remember it was the Custodes who were forcing primaris on reluctanct chapters, on pain of being declared traitors and destroyed...

 

 

Yes, but they were doing so under Gulliman's authority, not their own.

[Robbienw]

That's not true, they were doing from their own authority and that of the emperor, because of the visions from the emperor that the Custodians Emissaries had.

[jaxom]

 

 

The Custodes aren't the literal voice of the Emperor, nor do they officially supercede an Astartes Chapter Master, though of course they command more respect.

 

They are and they do though.

 

Remember it was the Custodes who were forcing primaris on reluctanct chapters, on pain of being declared traitors and destroyed...

 

 

Yes, but they were doing so under Gulliman's authority, not their own.

 

 

Here's the text from C:AC:

 

When the Primarch announced his intention to bear the secrets of of the Primaris Space Marines to the loyalist Chapters, there was some resistance from the Adeptus Custodes, who feared strengthening those who might one day rebel against the Emperor once again. Yet dozens of Emissaries Imperatus stepped forward to intercede, stating this was the will of the Emperor.... The presence of the Adeptus Custodes also ensured that even the most traditional Chapters accepted the Primaris warriors into their ranks. One does not decline a gift from the Emperor's own hand, after all.

Guilliman has no authority over the Custodes (see my previous post), it was an internal decision, and when carried  out it was done so as part of their role as incarnate extensions of the Emperor (the corporation sole, not the religious figure because the Custodes don't see the Emperor that way).

[Phoebus]

Anyway, that's how the story may have made more sense to me. But, then we'd probably be talking about how Gerion's uncharacteristically stupid.

What you propose — specifically, the allusion to the Greyshields having dealings with Brazen Drakes and thus there being collusion between the two — would solve those concerns, in my humble opinion.

[Scribe]

Did anyone ever try and confirm if there are non-Primaris Drakes in the scene?

 

It reads like there could be, but it's not clear.

[jaxom]

Did anyone ever try and confirm if there are non-Primaris Drakes in the scene?

 

It reads like there could be, but it's not clear.

 

I had a similar thought regarding the Captain. Greyshields is a very Primaris term, but maybe the Captain had been sent out to investigate the whole "Primarch's back and he brought friends," thing and Guilliman sent him home with party favours. However, after checking, the Captain was using a heavy bolt pistol. I've only seen that weapon in reference to Primaris.

[Scribe]

Not the Captain, there is a line which referenced Drakes and Greyshield. Seemed like a distinction.

 

EDIT: The author also references this on Twitter.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/04/06/psychic-awakening-burden-of-brotherhood/

 

I feel there was just some missing links between the two, but it is what it is at this point.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Scribe

[jaxom]

After this:

 

 

 

‘Brothers, we are betrayed!’ he roared into his gorget’s vox mic, throwing himself sideways as he reached for his own drake-embossed power sword. ‘Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!’

the Space Marines are not referred to as Greyshields, but as Brazen Drakes for the rest of the action/combat. It may have been a way of indicating the cementing of sides and loyalty of the Marines to the Chapter or to reinforce that the Custodes and Null SIsters "real" enemy is the Brazen Drakes. The POV is mostly the Knight-Centura so it could reflect her making that firm distinction for the purpose of battle and slotting the enemy combatants into it. Greyshields is only used again at the very end once the bridge was secured and the situation on the Lex Imperatus has calmed down.