Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[ServoBadger]

I'm with the Brazen Drakes - at least the Primaris ones - here.

 

What would have happened if the Custodes had found out about the Chapter turning renegade not when they arrived at the planet, but five minutes after these grey shields were first assigned as reinforcements?

 

Are we supposed to believe they would have been killed out of hand?

 

Anyone know the colours of the Brazen Drakes? I want one to join my Deathwatch now.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

If you bought into the hype that Primaris Space Marines were unswervingly loyal at all times, you might want to sit down for this one.

 

I'm sitting down. And I'm still waiting. Unless we're supposed to accept a refusal to go along with an obvious injustice as heresy.

[OrkPlayer137]

And if the gene-seed for Primaris is taken from First Founding chapters, then that makes the Blood Ravens story about their Primaris reinforcements even more problematic. It was bad enough to think that Mars even had access to specific Blood Raven geneseed and that no one there either bothered to evaluate their geneseed to find out their true origins or was unable to do so. But either way, it was definitely Blood Raven geneseed they brought, not geneseed from a First Founding chapter as the end of that story had the Blood Ravens evaluating that geneseed themselves in order to try to discover their own origins. If it was geneseed from a First Founding chapter, there'd have been no mystery.

 

I think it's possible that the geneseed delivered to to chapters by Custodes Torchbearers could be derived from that specific chapter's geneseed, even though Grey Shields were originally introduced as from First Founding chapters only; after all, the Grey Shields fought in the Indomitus Crusade for some time before later being assigned to specific chapters when necessary. So that's not necessarily inconsistent in that Blood Ravens story.

 

However, as already mentioned earlier, the Grey Shields in this new story when then surely not have Brazen Drakes geneseed, or else they would not really be Grey Shields...unless perhaps the term "Grey Shields" has grown to encompass any marines not yet formally inducted into their chapter, even if they were created specifically for that chapter in the first place, rather than being part of the larger army of Grey Shields that fought in the Indomitus Crusade. (Edit: I see Brother Casman just got there before I did and posted the same idea slightly earlier!).

Edited April 20, 2020 by OrkPlayer137

[Frater Antodeniel]

Normally, i wouldn't do this, but since i'm forced to correct many in this thread :

 

I QUOTE - Watchers of the Throne : The Emperor's Legion

 

HOW THE CUSTODIANS SEE THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES (I remember other passages, but those two will suffice i believe) :

 

"for all that our cultivation was in many respects superior to that of the old Legiones Astartes, they were still among our deadliest foes and quite capable of defeating one of us if sufficient care were not taken."

 

"I felt no particular emotion as I studied the body. I understood that my cousins in the Adeptus Astartes reserved an almost pathological hatred for their Traitor counterparts. I wondered if that made them more or less effective on the field of battle. To me, the surviving members of the Old Legions were like bands of animals – feral threats to the Throne that required culling. I felt no discernible difference in my response to them than that I had experienced when hunting xenotype tyranids and eldar in these same tunnels – they were all dangerous, all worthy of study, but unworthy of expending emotional energy upon."

 

I hope this post and my previous one, will help people understand that the Custodian Shield Captain in the Short Story is not "stupid" but blinded by his misconception of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

 

EDIT, Another additions about how the Custodians considers/view the Space Marines, and how much they know about the Adeptus Astartes :

 

"And so I had never laid eyes on a Space Wolf. I had never laid eyes on a Dark Angel or a White Scar. The only ones I had ever witnessed – from a distance – were the golden warriors of Dorn’s Imperial Fists, who still maintained a monastery on the world they had once garrisoned alone, and who were now the most frequent visitors to the glittering halls of the Inner Palace."

 

"There are some among my brothers who do not see the sons of Titan as much more than specialised Space Marines, to be regarded with suspicion as part of that schismatic breed that caused us so much anguish in the past. A Space Marine may always fail, they believe, given enough time and enough reason, and thus they are all part of the same potentially aberrant strain."

Edited April 20, 2020 by Frater Antodeniel

[jaxom]

 

 

 you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’

Emphasis added by me. Custodes view makes sense - possible threat in an active warzone as Astartes have historically sided with their own Chapter/Legion once some of them go renegade - so disarm and detain the Primaris until there's time to determine what should be done. The fact that the initial Astartes response is what was feared was taken as confirmation that his initial decision was appropriate.

[Beren]

While I do understand how the Custodes view the Astartes, that particular Custodes shot an Astartes simply for speaking in their defence, and somehow expected that not provoke a reaction? It reads like he either failed to understand that a loyal Astares might state their loyalty, came to the conclusion that speaking of this warranted being shot and that the others wouldn't react to this, or that he wanted to provoke them and kill them all from the get-go.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Beren

[Robbienw]

The Blood Ravens primaris reinforcements in their recent Index Astartes story also has specific Blood Ravens descended geneseed, so any source that did claim all greyshield geneseed came from orginal legion stock is in error.

 

Also as Jaxom mentions the custodes were goind to detain them, if the brazen drakes had submitted to the custodes demand to disarm, they may have ended up eventually being able to reform the chapter and fight again for the imperium.

 

I though it was quite a good story.  Also showed primaris are no more of a match for Custodes than normal marines :lol:

[Brother Captain Alberic]

 

 

 

 you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’

Emphasis added by me. Custodes view makes sense - possible threat in an active warzone as Astartes have historically sided with their own Chapter/Legion once some of them go renegade - so disarm and detain the Primaris until there's time to determine what should be done. The fact that the initial Astartes response is what was feared was taken as confirmation that his initial decision was appropriate.

 

Except in the heresy this wasn't always the case, Garro and Loken being examples but I suppose that knowledge may have been lost over time.  However half of the Blood Raven's turned bad and yet the other half were never wiped out by the Imperium and they don't even know who their Primarch is.

[Chapter Master Valrak]

Normally, i wouldn't do this, but since i'm forced to correct many in this thread :

 

I QUOTE - Watchers of the Throne : The Emperor's Legion

 

HOW THE CUSTODIANS SEE THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES (I remember other passages, but those two will suffice i believe) :

 

"for all that our cultivation was in many respects superior to that of the old Legiones Astartes, they were still among our deadliest foes and quite capable of defeating one of us if sufficient care were not taken."

 

"I felt no particular emotion as I studied the body. I understood that my cousins in the Adeptus Astartes reserved an almost pathological hatred for their Traitor counterparts. I wondered if that made them more or less effective on the field of battle. To me, the surviving members of the Old Legions were like bands of animals – feral threats to the Throne that required culling. I felt no discernible difference in my response to them than that I had experienced when hunting xenotype tyranids and eldar in these same tunnels – they were all dangerous, all worthy of study, but unworthy of expending emotional energy upon."

 

I hope this post and my previous one, will help people understand that the Custodian Shield Captain in the Short Story is not "stupid" but blinded by his misconception of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

I get what Custodes think about Marines, but the way he handles the situation is stupid, we've seen Custodes deal with Primaris and their actions before, especially in the books that Chris Wraight has done and they handle themselves way better, in a more Custodian way (if that makes sense)

 

This feels like it's being forced, especially when the text from the previous article alludes to the disloyalty of the Primaris Marine, when in fact they did absolutely nothing wrong. 

 

It's like saying every Ultramarine should be arrested because one successor of their genestock went rogue. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Chapter Master Valrak

[Raven1]

Well I suppose that's the qnswer on whether or not we will see Heretic Primaris. Killed before even given the chance.

[Vanger]

The story is well written, the idea is sound. But it all turns into dumb stupidity when you consider where and when they are. It's the Era indomitus, the Torchbearer fleet is carrying Greyshields, primaris marines from the genetic material of all of the legions! Once they get assigned to a chapter they stop being Greyshields.

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

I get what Custodes think about Marines, but the way he handles the situation is stupid, we've seen Custodes deal with Primaris and their actions before, especially in the books that Chris Wraight has done and they handle themselves way better, in a more Custodian way (if that makes sense)

 

This feels like it's being forced, especially when the text from the previous article alludes to the disloyalty of the Primaris Marine, when in fact they did absolutely nothing wrong. 

 

It's like saying every Ultramarine should be arrested because one successor of their genestock went rogue. 

 

 

Well, Custodians are not equal, and i think that it is honest to say that some are more extremes than others :

 

As the Custodian Valerian states :

 

"There are some among my brothers who do not see the sons of Titan as much more than specialised Space Marines, to be regarded with suspicion as part of that schismatic breed that caused us so much anguish in the past. A Space Marine may always fail, they believe, given enough time and enough reason, and thus they are all part of the same potentially aberrant strain."

 

So, the Custodian Shield Captain of the Short Story is certainly one of those unflinching Custodians who see the Astartes as an aberrant strain. To such a Custodians, the fact that even a far remote successor of the Ultramarines fall to Chaos is proof that the Ultramarines may fall themselves.

[Felix Antipodes]

This story is just the latest of several I've read recently hinting of Custodes having a pathological distrust of Astartes; an idea that the background writers seem to have picked up on and (over) run with in the PA series.

 

I was halfway through a lengthy diatribe on what I found stupid (IMHO) but it would have taken this off topic.

 

The only thing left is to see if they continue this guff in Pariah itself.

[Lemondish]

I'll just be over here, in a dark corner, silent...since I kind of enjoyed that story.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 

 you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’

Emphasis added by me. Custodes view makes sense - possible threat in an active warzone as Astartes have historically sided with their own Chapter/Legion once some of them go renegade - so disarm and detain the Primaris until there's time to determine what should be done. The fact that the initial Astartes response is what was feared was taken as confirmation that his initial decision was appropriate.

 

Um no. The initial Astartes reponse was talking "This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy...You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof." and "You give us no chance to speak in our defence! These sins are not ours to account for! We have fought loyally and done no wrong, and now-". To which the Custodes respond with gunfire. The Astartes did not escalate, or respond unreasonably. They hadn't even drawn weapons before Tyvar drew first blood. The Custodes were 100% at fault here.

 

Plus of course there's plenty of history showing Marines not universally siding with their Chapter once some go renegade from Heresy era examples like Dreygur, Dantioch, Vhalen and the loyalists at Istvaan III to more modern examples like the Black Wings and Crimson Castellans.

 

 

[Redcomet]

Beyond showing the contempt custodes have for Astartes... this story makes little sense to me.

 

But that is the insane black or white view of the imperium I guess.

[N1SB]

Hi Brothers, I was just double-checking some details in Dark Imperium and the Great Work, on the Loyalist gene-seed issue like you guys.  Then I re-read the story and I honestly think the emphasis should be on this part:
 
But you side with your brothers before your Emperor, as the Adeptus Astartes always have.
 
In other words...
 

Meaning the Shield Captain also condemns whatever Chapter it came from?

 
Not just the Loyalist Legion of that gene-seed...the Custodes Shield Captain condemns ALL Adeptus Astartes, based on those words.
 
You guys already pointed out (with Brother Antodeniel citing a particularly good excerpt) how the Custodes in the novels saw Astartes weren't simply inferior to them, but inherently broken in some way.  When half the Legions turned to Chaos, obviously the Custodes particularly blamed the Traitors, but they also looked to the Loyalists like "it could just as well have been you."  From their point of view, the limited statistical data they had suggested there was a 50/50 chance any Astartes...with the way they're almost genetically programmed to value their brotherhood and their Primarch...above the Emperor.  Not saying they're right, but that's the sentiment we see time and again.
 
My favourite example was in Master of Mankind, the Custodes brought along a single Blood Angel into the Webway project when Daemons were spilling into it.  He didn't know why until Arkhan Land sidled up to him and asked him if he knows what a canary in the coal mine is supposed to do.  There were Mechanicum Techpriests and Imperial Knight Titans in there, but it's like the Custodes saw Astartes as so easily corruptible by Chaos, he was supposed to be their litmus test for some sort of taint.

 

What surprised me wasn't so much the Custodes seemed stupid, it's that he was that hateful.  This was a guy who seemed to have his mind made up he was going to kill him some Astartes, like he's just waiting, hoping, praying for an excuse to pull the trigger.
 

Is there any fluff where Custodes aren't colossal :cusss?

 

 

It does look like this isn't so much a Traitor Primaris story as it is a Custodes being colossal  , does it?

 

Or perhaps just humans, transhumans and beyond seeing corruption in everything except within, that same old Imperium song.

[Brother Casman]

I'll just be over here, in a dark corner, silent...since I kind of enjoyed that story.

I did too, matey, I did too.

[Frater Antodeniel]

This story is just the latest of several I've read recently hinting of Custodes having a pathological distrust of Astartes; an idea that the background writers seem to have picked up on and (over) run with in the PA series.

 

This does not only apply to the Custodes, but also to the Sisters of Silence, as stated by the Sister of Silence, Aleya point of view :

 

"That was the key difference between him and, say, a Space Marine. A Space Marine was a creature of incredible internal pride, a warrior breed of such bellicosity that they would go

to war – and had done – over matters of martial insult or the resentments of their flawed primarchs. Valerian would never have done that. In that distinction, I felt, was both his greatest strength and his most profound weakness."  (When Aleya think about Valerian at one point of the Novel)

 

"They were everything I had been schooled to admire in the Space Marines – implacable, focused, absurdly violent."

 

 

Beyond showing the contempt custodes have for Astartes... this story makes little sense to me.

 

But that is the insane black or white view of the imperium I guess.

 

In fact this Short Story, like the previous one, did add an interresting layer to the whole Primaris reinforcement event of the Indomitus Crusade. It is a "What if...." story that demonstrate how things can evolve "IF" the reinforcement fleet face an unexpected event, like the one of the Short Story.

 

Also, remember that the Imperium Authorities are most of the time extremes in their responses and that events such as internecine wars between Imperial factions are common things. It is not unheard of Space Marines chapter fighting among each others, leading sometimes to heresy...and it is also common that the Ministorum forces fight among themselves about the Imperial Creed...and i don't even mention of the Inquisition who sometimes orchestrates fatricidal events within the Imperium.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Frater Antodeniel

[Blindhamster]

didn't think it portrayed custodians in a remotely good light.

 

except for combat prowess, as they were obviously amazing there.

I'm a little surprised it wasn't veterans with the captain though, I'd honestly expect them to give a better showing than they did regardless of primaris or firstborn, we KNOW marines can defeat custodes one on one from a lore perspective, but that was an absolute slaughter lol.

 

Oh well, it failed to give us traitor primaris, it just gave us renegade primaris.. which is actually what i called a few pages back.

[Brother Captain Alberic]

I guess the problem this story seems to highlight is that prior to the Indomitus crusade the Adeptus Custodes only interaction with Astartes was during the heresy and seems they have never trusted ANY Astartes since.  But it seems dumb to me that Guilliman didn't inform remind them at any point of some of the instances of loyalists from the traitor legions.  Especially considering Guilliman specifically encountered loyalist Iron Warriors ( as much as an Imperial Fist that pains me to admit).  I'd be very interested to hear if Guilliman eventually hears of this and whether he agrees with the Custodian's actions personally I think he will feel they wasted resources that could have been sent to a different loyal chapter that uses the same first founding gene seed.  Especially considering the Primaris never fired the first shot.

[Biscuittzz]

Given that the distrust and in some places outright hostility shown towards Astartes by Custodes, you would think Guilliman should realise that putting them in charge of astartes forces is just asking for trouble. Not very tactically astute now is he.

 

I knew the general ideas of this story seemed similar. It's practically The Grey Raven heresy short story redone for 40k.

[Brother-serpent Tylydox]

Wow those Primaris are slow-thinking.

[Chapter Master Valrak]

 

I get what Custodes think about Marines, but the way he handles the situation is stupid, we've seen Custodes deal with Primaris and their actions before, especially in the books that Chris Wraight has done and they handle themselves way better, in a more Custodian way (if that makes sense)

 

This feels like it's being forced, especially when the text from the previous article alludes to the disloyalty of the Primaris Marine, when in fact they did absolutely nothing wrong. 

 

It's like saying every Ultramarine should be arrested because one successor of their genestock went rogue.

 

 

Well, Custodians are not equal, and i think that it is honest to say that some are more extremes than others :

 

As the Custodian Valerian states :

 

"There are some among my brothers who do not see the sons of Titan as much more than specialised Space Marines, to be regarded with suspicion as part of that schismatic breed that caused us so much anguish in the past. A Space Marine may always fail, they believe, given enough time and enough reason, and thus they are all part of the same potentially aberrant strain."

 

So, the Custodian Shield Captain of the Short Story is certainly one of those unflinching Custodians who see the Astartes as an aberrant strain. To such a Custodians, the fact that even a far remote successor of the Ultramarines fall to Chaos is proof that the Ultramarines may fall themselves.

I get some Custodes have that way of thinking towards Astartes, it’s understandable, the problem for me is how fast it escalated, I would of understood it if the Shield Captain was someone like an Inquisitor, but a Custodian should have had a better reaction.

 

Something like, the Chapter has gone traitor, go down to the planet and purge them to prove your loyalty, that would of been way more cooler and if they denied that request then you take action against them.

[Brother-serpent Tylydox]

See how your Imperium loves you?  Come to the Dark Side, we have cookies.