Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[jaxom]

 

 

 

 

 you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’

Emphasis added by me. Custodes view makes sense - possible threat in an active warzone as Astartes have historically sided with their own Chapter/Legion once some of them go renegade - so disarm and detain the Primaris until there's time to determine what should be done. The fact that the initial Astartes response is what was feared was taken as confirmation that his initial decision was appropriate.

 

Except in the heresy this wasn't always the case, Garro and Loken being examples but I suppose that knowledge may have been lost over time.  However half of the Blood Raven's turned bad and yet the other half were never wiped out by the Imperium and they don't even know who their Primarch is.

 

 

And those folks were vetted for by Malcador, who in his role as Regent which overrode the authority of the Custodes. The Blood Ravens are an odd duck because their weirdness is all pre-Indomitus. We have litte idea how Custodes responded to these sorts of issues prior to Guilliman's return other than a few snippets in their codex which are vaguely, "If a renegade chapter was enough of a direct threat to Terra, the Custodes would deal with it." Maybe the Blood Ravens were too much of a direct threat, maybe an Eye of the Emperor checked out the situation directed some Inquisitors in their direction, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’

Emphasis added by me. Custodes view makes sense - possible threat in an active warzone as Astartes have historically sided with their own Chapter/Legion once some of them go renegade - so disarm and detain the Primaris until there's time to determine what should be done. The fact that the initial Astartes response is what was feared was taken as confirmation that his initial decision was appropriate.

 

Um no. The initial Astartes reponse was talking "This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy...You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof." and "You give us no chance to speak in our defence! These sins are not ours to account for! We have fought loyally and done no wrong, and now-". To which the Custodes respond with gunfire. The Astartes did not escalate, or respond unreasonably. They hadn't even drawn weapons before Tyvar drew first blood. The Custodes were 100% at fault here.

 

The Custodes have a very simple litmus test available to judge the loyalty of anyone to the Throne because of Magisterium Lex Ultima. Doing anything other than what a Custodes orders one to do is immediate evidence (from a conservative viewpoint, like the Custodes in the story) that one has disobeyed an order from the Emperor. The simple act of not immediately laying down their arms and acquiescing to detainment as ordered by one speaking with the Voice of the Emperor is an act of heresy.  The first consideration of Magisterium Lex Ultima is obedience. Only then, within a frame work determined by those holding Magisterium Lex Ultima can one plead one's case.

 

 

This feels like it's being forced, especially when the text from the previous article alludes to the disloyalty of the Primaris Marine, when in fact they did absolutely nothing wrong. 

 

It's like saying every Ultramarine should be arrested because one successor of their genestock went rogue. 

 

 

Maybe? Imagine a bunch of Volscani regiments (who have been campaigning on the other side of the galaxy) were in transit to Cadia while Tyrok Fields was underway. They enter orbit, the ship captain finds out what's going on and immediately orders a lockdown of the embarkation decks and all Volscani need to lay down their weapons. The Enemy is insidious, who knows how it's achieved this corruption, maybe it's bone deep. Detainment is a sensible move.

 

One the other hand, imagine if someone points out that the vast majority of renegade chapters have Ultramarine gene-seed. It makes sense from a statistical viewpoint, but a Custodes decide to check it out. He arrives at Ultramar and just says, "Show me everything in your records and histories." Nothing else, no reason given. Conservative viewpoint: the only acceptable course of option for the Ultramarines is to immediately accede to him. Doing so is the first step in showing the Ultramarines are loyal to the Throne regardless of the actions of their successors. They wait upon the judgement of the Throne and accept it, because they are loyal.

[librisrouge]

I can't be the only one who had no problem with the custodes in this story and every problem with the marines. Your chapter has gone rogue. Yes, you've not officially joined that chapter yet, but they're your destination and have gone rogue. This is a big deal. The Ordo Hereticus, the branch of the Imperium who's job is to decide these things, has made the accusation official. You're ordered, by the CUSTODIAN SHIELD CAPTAIN (caps for emphasis) in charge of your fleet, to stand down, disarm, and allow non-astartes to deal with this and investigate/render judgement.

 

Your course of action is simple. Stand down. Disarm.

 

Instead, they argue. They verbally side with their chapter.

 

This is the 40k setting. That may as well be treason all by itself. They verbally rebuked their leader (of the fleet at least), the inquisition, and the obvious evidence in front of them. The custodian has zero reason to trust them and to even give them a chance. Particularly if they can't obey as simple an order as stand down and disarm. Marines aren't to be trusted.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Real Loyalist: custodes are the authority of the emperor. Defying them is defying the emperor. When he told them disarm and they didn't immediately they failed to heed the emperor.

 

The shield captain gave them an easy out and they failed. I have no idea how anyone thinks this would play out different in an active warzone in 41k.

 

 

I get that lots think that this was an extreme escalation...but the Custodes aren't well known for their ability to take no or waits for an answer.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Hellex_The_Thanatar

[Lemondish]

I get that lots think that this was an extreme escalation...but the Custodes aren't well known for their ability to take no or waits for an answer.

Lots of people are marine fans.

[Arendious]

While I'm onboard with "Maybe listening to the guy with the shooty-spear was the better plan". I find it a little hard to suspend disbelief that *no one* discussed this eventuality along the way.

[Fenriwolf]

 

I'm a little surprised it wasn't veterans with the captain though, I'd honestly expect them to give a better showing than they did regardless of primaris or firstborn, we KNOW marines can defeat custodes one on one from a lore perspective, but that was an absolute slaughter lol.

 

As with everything in PsyAw this is set very early in the post-Guilliman timeline and we were told in a few places that while phisically superior the (ex-)greyshields were noted as being less developped from a "tactics and training" point of view by the oldsmarine they were reinforcing.

 

Basically,they were superhuman newbies.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Fenriwolf

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

Real Loyalist: custodes are the authority of the emperor. Defying them is defying the emperor. When he told them disarm and they didn't immediately they failed to heed the emperor.

 

The shield captain gave them an easy out and they failed. I have no idea how anyone thinks this would play out different in an active warzone in 41k.

 

 

I get that lots think that this was an extreme escalation...but the Custodes aren't well known for their ability to take no or waits for an answer.

I am not up to date with the Custodes lore, so I have to ask: since when the Custodes have any authority over Adeptus Astartes (or anybody else)? I thought they have only the authority invested in them by Our Spiritual Liege (earlier by Emp) for the purpose of  one certain mission (delivery of Primaris in this case) and nothing more. Or is it more nuanced? Asking, because i simply don't know.

 

As to the story, "Bolt shells streaked toward her but, swift and agile, she evaded each one"  - everyone is superhuman here, I got it, lightning reflexes and such, but isn't it... a bit much?

[Fenriwolf]

 

Real Loyalist: custodes are the authority of the emperor. Defying them is defying the emperor. When he told them disarm and they didn't immediately they failed to heed the emperor.

 

The shield captain gave them an easy out and they failed. I have no idea how anyone thinks this would play out different in an active warzone in 41k.

 

 

I get that lots think that this was an extreme escalation...but the Custodes aren't well known for their ability to take no or waits for an answer.

I am not up to date with the Custodes lore, so I have to ask: since when the Custodes have any authority over Adeptus Astartes (or anybody else)? I thought they have only the authority invested in them by Our Spiritual Liege (earlier by Emp) for the purpose of  one certain mission (delivery of Primaris in this case) and nothing more. Or is it more nuanced? Asking, because i simply don't know.

 

As to the story, "Bolt shells streaked toward her but, swift and agile, she evaded each one"  - everyone is superhuman here, I got it, lightning reflexes and such, but isn't it... a bit much?

 

Custodes basically have the same authority the Inquisition has.With the "small" caveat that they themselves don't anwser to the Inquisition. 

 

You can then argue that while an inquisitor just claims to speak for Big E. a custodes could actually be doing it for real...

Edited April 20, 2020 by Fenriwolf

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

The Custodes have a very simple litmus test available to judge the loyalty of anyone to the Throne because of Magisterium Lex Ultima. Doing anything other than what a Custodes orders one to do is immediate evidence (from a conservative viewpoint, like the Custodes in the story) that one has disobeyed an order from the Emperor. The simple act of not immediately laying down their arms and acquiescing to detainment as ordered by one speaking with the Voice of the Emperor is an act of heresy.  The first consideration of Magisterium Lex Ultima is obedience. Only then, within a frame work determined by those holding Magisterium Lex Ultima can one plead one's case.

 

Which is why Custodes are contemptible pieces of , based on stories like this. Not even the Inquisition is this institutionally arrogant and self righteous. 'I'm always right and I'll just kill anyone who questions me' is the mindset of a monster. I know this is 40k 'grey and black morality', no true heroes etc. But the Custodes are meant to be above the Marines, even finer than the Emperor's finest. But in this story Tyvar comes across as pure scum, a petty thug on a power trip.

 

 

One the other hand, imagine if someone points out that the vast majority of renegade chapters have Ultramarine gene-seed. It makes sense from a statistical viewpoint, but a Custodes decide to check it out. He arrives at Ultramar and just says, "Show me everything in your records and histories." Nothing else, no reason given. Conservative viewpoint: the only acceptable course of option for the Ultramarines is to immediately accede to him. Doing so is the first step in showing the Ultramarines are loyal to the Throne regardless of the actions of their successors. They wait upon the judgement of the Throne and accept it, because they are loyal.

If that happened, do you really think that Calgar, Tigurius or whoever's in command there wouldn't react something along the lines of 'what, why?' when presented with a demand like that? And if the Custodes opened fire within a few seconds of issuing said demand, they would be the party at fault. That's pretty much what happened here.

 

 

Maybe? Imagine a bunch of Volscani regiments (who have been campaigning on the other side of the galaxy) were in transit to Cadia while Tyrok Fields was underway. They enter orbit, the ship captain finds out what's going on and immediately orders a lockdown of the embarkation decks and all Volscani need to lay down their weapons. The Enemy is insidious, who knows how it's achieved this corruption, maybe it's bone deep. Detainment is a sensible move.

 

Not the best example, because Guardsmen are not Space Marines. They have less autonomy, don't walk around ships armed etc. Again, the Custodes escalated here, not the Marines.

 

I can't be the only one who had no problem with the custodes in this story and every problem with the marines. Your chapter has gone rogue. Yes, you've not officially joined that chapter yet, but they're your destination and have gone rogue. This is a big deal. The Ordo Hereticus, the branch of the Imperium who's job is to decide these things, has made the accusation official. You're ordered, by the CUSTODIAN SHIELD CAPTAIN (caps for emphasis) in charge of your fleet, to stand down, disarm, and allow non-astartes to deal with this and investigate/render judgement.

Aren't Custodes meant to be smart though? And capable of subtlety and intrigue and all that good stuff? The Marines made no aggressive moves here.

 

 

Instead, they argue. They verbally side with their chapter.

No they don't. They react with confusion and denial. Note the Captain's response comes before Tyvar flashes the Ordo writ. Once that's happened the claim is 'those aren't our sins', to which Tyvar responds with lethal force. Frankly this entire story reminds me most of 'prejudiced cop looking to shoot a suspect' rather than 'correct application of authority'.

 

 

The custodian has zero reason to trust them and to even give them a chance. Particularly if they can't obey as simple an order as stand down and disarm. Marines aren't to be trusted.

Zero reason? These are Greyshields. They've already fought and bled for the Imperium during the Indomitus Crusade, clearly had no idea of what had happened to the Brazen Drakes and have given no evidence of improper behaviour. They deserved more than 84 (that's all Tyvar spoke before shooting) words, and at least some attempt to de-escalate the situation before resorting to unprovoked violence.

 

Custodes are the single greatest justification for Renegade Marines in the entire setting.

[Fenriwolf]

 

If that happened, do you really think that Calgar, Tigurius or whoever's in command there wouldn't react something along the lines of 'what, why?' when presented with a demand like that? And if the Custodes opened fire within a few seconds of issuing said demand, they would be the party at fault. That's pretty much what happened here.

*cue Logan beheading an inqusitor in Fenris' high orbit*

 

Yep,maybe something would happen

Edited April 20, 2020 by Fenriwolf

[rookie40K]

I can't be the only one who had no problem with the custodes in this story and every problem with the marines. Your chapter has gone rogue. Yes, you've not officially joined that chapter yet, but they're your destination and have gone rogue. This is a big deal. The Ordo Hereticus, the branch of the Imperium who's job is to decide these things, has made the accusation official. You're ordered, by the CUSTODIAN SHIELD CAPTAIN (caps for emphasis) in charge of your fleet, to stand down, disarm, and allow non-astartes to deal with this and investigate/render judgement.

 

Your course of action is simple. Stand down. Disarm.

 

Instead, they argue. They verbally side with their chapter.

 

This is the 40k setting. That may as well be treason all by itself. They verbally rebuked their leader (of the fleet at least), the inquisition, and the obvious evidence in front of them. The custodian has zero reason to trust them and to even give them a chance. Particularly if they can't obey as simple an order as stand down and disarm. Marines aren't to be trusted.

I have not read it yet, but this is what it sounds like to me. Logical and straightforward. Thanks for saying it. I’m going to go read it now.

[Lucerne]

The Custodes are Chaos's MVP in that story and literally the only reason they haven't fallen to Chaos en-masse is that their programming won't allow it. Otherwise that level of hubris and self-righteousness should have seen them all damned millennia ago.

 

The Shield Captain has now single handedly turned Primaris into renegades through sheer inability to be diplomatic and an itchy trigger finger.

 

Hell, replace Shield Captain Muppet with a servo skull with a prerecorded message and that encounter would STILL end less disastrously.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Lucerne

[librisrouge]

 

 

 

The Custodes have a very simple litmus test available to judge the loyalty of anyone to the Throne because of Magisterium Lex Ultima. Doing anything other than what a Custodes orders one to do is immediate evidence (from a conservative viewpoint, like the Custodes in the story) that one has disobeyed an order from the Emperor. The simple act of not immediately laying down their arms and acquiescing to detainment as ordered by one speaking with the Voice of the Emperor is an act of heresy.  The first consideration of Magisterium Lex Ultima is obedience. Only then, within a frame work determined by those holding Magisterium Lex Ultima can one plead one's case.

 

Which is why Custodes are contemptible pieces of , based on stories like this. Not even the Inquisition is this institutionally arrogant and self righteous. 'I'm always right and I'll just kill anyone who questions me' is the mindset of a monster. I know this is 40k 'grey and black morality', no true heroes etc. But the Custodes are meant to be above the Marines, even finer than the Emperor's finest. But in this story Tyvar comes across as pure scum, a petty thug on a power trip.

 

In this setting, trust is a liability. It isn't just "black and grey morality", it is a marine chapter going rogue. When an entire chapter goes rogue, as appears to be happening here, the #1 priority isn't being careful about who is or isn't guilty, it is damage control. You need to contain the damage immediately, otherwise you have another Horus Heresy or Badab War on your hands. If a few squads of Greyshields have to die to accomplish that, then it is a price worth paying. He isn't being a petty thug, anymore than many in the setting are, he is being a surgeon excising the cancer with a liberal eye to the future.

 

 

One the other hand, imagine if someone points out that the vast majority of renegade chapters have Ultramarine gene-seed. It makes sense from a statistical viewpoint, but a Custodes decide to check it out. He arrives at Ultramar and just says, "Show me everything in your records and histories." Nothing else, no reason given. Conservative viewpoint: the only acceptable course of option for the Ultramarines is to immediately accede to him. Doing so is the first step in showing the Ultramarines are loyal to the Throne regardless of the actions of their successors. They wait upon the judgement of the Throne and accept it, because they are loyal.

If that happened, do you really think that Calgar, Tigurius or whoever's in command there wouldn't react something along the lines of 'what, why?' when presented with a demand like that? And if the Custodes opened fire within a few seconds of issuing said demand, they would be the party at fault. That's pretty much what happened here.

 

And that is why Ultramarines are routinely mocked. They're Mr. Perfect and get to be because Our Spiritual Liege barely fits in the setting. He never learned the lessons that allowed humanity to survive for 10,000 years, the most important of which is to have zero trust. Custodes are the voice of the voice of the Emperor. Listen to them. While they'd say "What, why?" they'd only get away with it because they're 100% in the dark in this scenario and there isn't any apparent immediacy to the Custodes order. In the story we're presented, the planet is in a state of war and you have X number of primaris marines on your fleet whose loyalty is ostensibly to the heretic forces on the surface. That is an immediate problem that the Custode is trying to solve.

 

 

Maybe? Imagine a bunch of Volscani regiments (who have been campaigning on the other side of the galaxy) were in transit to Cadia while Tyrok Fields was underway. They enter orbit, the ship captain finds out what's going on and immediately orders a lockdown of the embarkation decks and all Volscani need to lay down their weapons. The Enemy is insidious, who knows how it's achieved this corruption, maybe it's bone deep. Detainment is a sensible move.

 

Not the best example, because Guardsmen are not Space Marines. They have less autonomy, don't walk around ships armed etc. Again, the Custodes escalated here, not the Marines.

 

It doesn't matter. The Custodes have the same authority over marines as they would over guardsmen, absolute authority. The marines might not appreciate that, but their appreciation doesn't matter.

 

I can't be the only one who had no problem with the custodes in this story and every problem with the marines. Your chapter has gone rogue. Yes, you've not officially joined that chapter yet, but they're your destination and have gone rogue. This is a big deal. The Ordo Hereticus, the branch of the Imperium who's job is to decide these things, has made the accusation official. You're ordered, by the CUSTODIAN SHIELD CAPTAIN (caps for emphasis) in charge of your fleet, to stand down, disarm, and allow non-astartes to deal with this and investigate/render judgement.

Aren't Custodes meant to be smart though? And capable of subtlety and intrigue and all that good stuff? The Marines made no aggressive moves here.

 

That custodes was smart. The marines were asked to disarm. They didn't. The marines were asked to stand down. They didn't. They were already trying to figure out some way to convince the others to side with the heretic astartes forces on the planet in spite of an inquisitorial edict on the subject. They were heretics at that point and took no action to protect themselves from the just accusations pointed there way. Accusations backed up by the blades of the Emperor's own bodyguards. So, counterpoint, aren't marines supposed to be smart.

 

 

Instead, they argue. They verbally side with their chapter.

No they don't. They react with confusion and denial. Note the Captain's response comes before Tyvar flashes the Ordo writ. Once that's happened the claim is 'those aren't our sins', to which Tyvar responds with lethal force. Frankly this entire story reminds me most of 'prejudiced cop looking to shoot a suspect' rather than 'correct application of authority'.

 

One marine argued that they should go down and support the other marines. "We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them!" To allow them to do what they wanted would be to send reinforcements to traitors. They were given a fair chance to back down. He says, after the captain suggests investigating, "‘Disarm. Command your brothers throughout the fleet to do likewise. Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’" He is giving them an out right there. They chose not to take it.

 

 

The custodian has zero reason to trust them and to even give them a chance. Particularly if they can't obey as simple an order as stand down and disarm. Marines aren't to be trusted.

Zero reason? These are Greyshields. They've already fought and bled for the Imperium during the Indomitus Crusade, clearly had no idea of what had happened to the Brazen Drakes and have given no evidence of improper behaviour. They deserved more than 84 (that's all Tyvar spoke before shooting) words, and at least some attempt to de-escalate the situation before resorting to unprovoked violence.

 

Custodes are the single greatest justification for Renegade Marines in the entire setting.

 

So? The chapter on that planet "fought and bled for the Imperium" many times, no doubt. The loyalty of the past does not forgive the treason of the present. The custodes gave the marines more than one opportunity to back down, but they neglected it at each turn, in their arrogance. When a marine chapter goes rogue, standard operating procedure is to purge everyone, root and branch, to contain the heresy. These marines should know that, probably even took part in at least one purge in the past themselves since the warp rift probably corrupted more than a few chapters. Despite knowing this, they don't realize the target on their back the actions of their chapter has caused and continue to press the issue. In any other circumstance, they wouldn't have been even given the chance to surrender they were given. In a normal situation, they'd "deserve" zero words and a broadside from an Imperial battleship. They were given mercy because of the circumstances and neglected it.

 

 

Also, they're not really Greyshields anymore. They've been assigned a chapter. I don't remember if the story mentions the color of their armor but they've probably already had it repainted since they're so close to their new homeworld. If previous books are anything to go on, they've probably begun to emesh themselves in whatever is known about the rites and rituals of their chapter. They'll already strongly consider themselves members of the chapter by now, I don't doubt. This isn't a much different situation than if the marines being brought back to the chapter had been a crusade fleet gone for a long while who needed the custodes to give them a ride.

Edited April 20, 2020 by librisrouge

[N1SB]

I was so inspired by Andy Clark's short story for the Psychic Awakening, Consequences, that I made this:

Edited April 20, 2020 by N1SB

[librisrouge]

Ok, that is funny. Bravo, sir.

[Shield-Captain]

Wow. One short story and the whole fanbase collapses on itself. This really doesn't show anything new. Would a Custodes butcher some marines for refusing his order? Some would, yes. The Grey Knights murder guardsmen who see Daemons and one time even butchered some loyal Sisters of Battle to fight Khorne daemons. It happens. Not every Custode would react the same way and even the Sister of Silence seems rather shocked by what they just did. 

 

Were the Primaris loyal? Yeah, probably. They wanted more info. The Custode believed he had all the info he needed. That's the tragedy of the Imperium. That's what the story shows. The irony is the last line. I don't see why everyone is so riled up. This is a staple of the lore and the entire basis of Badab. The Imperium is dumb. They wouldn't be compelling if they solved all their situations with grace and expert statesmanship. 

[Bryan Blaire]

I think that the story makes sense (although not the best prose I’ve ever read) from the “absolute obedience to the Emperor is the only obedience” and in that fleet, the Custodes is the “voice and eyes of the Emperor”. The Marines were given an out, they chose to continue to defy - laying down one’s life in absolute obedience is the order of the everyday in the Imperium - the Marines chose not to do so. That’s heresy, even if it isn’t the logical view most of us would take.

 

That’s because 40K isn’t built on a logical view from our world.

 

Remember, the Emperor wasn’t a nice guy either - he very much dealt in absolutes without any real recourse or discussion with those that opposed his dictates. The Custodes are in fact closer to the Emperor than any Marine, and they (the Custodes) know this with an inherent being who they are. It doesn’t matter that by other logic, the Custodes might be wrong - if they are wrong, then the Emperor would have been wrong to them, and that is a situation they can’t countenance at all - it doesn’t even enter their minds.

 

And that’s coming from a Marine fan (I can’t stand the Custodes in 40K, but it is what it is and the setting is what it is).

 

Also, this story and people’s reactions to it are 100% in line with the funny embedded in the “hype” comment made - in the Imperium, absolutely loyalty makes you a monster by other standards, but is the only right thing for them - the Primaris were not absolutely loyal, as some fans would like to say. The Imperium are the bad guys too, and a Chapter of Marines loyal to the Emperor would have done exactly the same if it had been a bunch of Guard that were in the Brazen Drakes’ position.

[wisetiger7]

I was so inspired by Andy Clark's short story for the Psychic Awakening, Consequences, that I made this:

Too soon, bruh.

[Kriegsmacht]

This is also shown in the Audio drama Garro: Sword of Truth. In that story there's a fleet of ships that showed up at the edge of the solar system sometime after the Heresy started. The Custodes in charge of the operation upon meeting Astartes from the White Scars, World Eaters, and Emperors Children Legions automatically sided with the White Scars Astartes because the Legion is still loyal whereas the other two are Traitors. He even condemns the WE and EC who remained loyal because their legions turned against the Emperor.

 

I won't say anymore about the story in case people haven't heard/read it. The Custodes always come across as black and white to me in this setting. This short story didn't really surprise me. "Your brothers turned against the Emperor so we're not taking chances."

[rookie40K]

This is also shown in the Audio drama Garro: Sword of Truth. In that story there's a fleet of ships that showed up at the edge of the solar system sometime after the Heresy started. The Custodes in charge of the operation upon meeting Astartes from the White Scars, World Eaters, and Emperors Children Legions automatically sided with the White Scars Astartes because the Legion is still loyal whereas the other two are Traitors. He even condemns the WE and EC who remained loyal because their legions turned against the Emperor.

 

I won't say anymore about the story in case people haven't heard/read it. The Custodes always come across as black and white to me in this setting. This short story didn't really surprise me. "Your brothers turned against the Emperor so we're not taking chances."

I was going to say this, but left It alone because I figured it would trigger a rant from some on that author.

[Beren]

Those Marines were not suggesting they send reinforcements to Traitors. They said that there *may* be marines down there that are fighting to 'restore their honour' i.e Loyalists still fighting against their Traitor brethren. They want to rescue fellow Loyalists, and fight the Traitors themselves. Regardless of whether or not the Custodes was trying to eliminate a problem, he single handedly triggered an immediate rebellion among the Primaris that may well have been avoided, so it wasn't exactly productive.

 

These actions not being out of character for the Imperium, or the custodes, does not make them reasonable or mitigate the fault.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Beren

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Those Marines were not suggesting they send reinforcements to Traitors. They said that there *may* be marines down there that are fighting to 'restore their honour' i.e Loyalists still fighting against their Traitor brethren. They want to rescue fellow Loyalists, and fight the Traitors themselves. Regardless of whether or not the Custodes was trying to eliminate a problem, he single handedly triggered an immediate rebellion among the Primaris that may well have been avoided, so it wasn't exactly productive.

 

These actions not being out of character for the Imperium, or the custodes, does not make them reasonable or mitigate the fault.

 

How does one make that determination on the fly in a conflict?

[Lucerne]

So to break down the story:

 

The Custodian fired the first shot and murdered the Greyshield mid declaration of loyalty, causing the Primaris to first return fire then declare everyone outside the Chapter hostile. (Also it's a bit silly that the banana didn't get blown apart despite not taking cover)

This is the point at which the Sisters of Silence get involved, and turns the fight in the Custodian's favor.

And the Custodian still refuses to accept responsibility for his own decisions, even when the Sister points out "hey maybe we started a mess".

 

 

Well I suppose that's the qnswer on whether or not we will see Heretic Primaris. Killed before even given the chance.

Well, the Captain is dead. That leaves about 180 to flee and seek vengeance.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Lucerne

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

So to break down the story:

 

The Custodian fired the first shot and murdered the Greyshield mid declaration of loyalty, causing the Primaris to first return fire then declare everyone outside the Chapter hostile. (Also it's a bit silly that the banana didn't get blown apart despite not taking cover)

This is the point at which the Sisters of Silence get involved, and turns the fight in the Custodian's favor.

And the Custodian still refuses to accept responsibility, even when the Sister points out "hey maybe we started a mess".

So to break it down: custodes tells marine to disarm immediately.

 

Marines: Nahhhh.

 

Custodes: OK. Slaughter time.

 

Sister: well that escalated quickly

 

Custodes: *shrugs*

 

*Also yes that armour custodes wear ain't just for show. Neither are invul saves.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Hellex_The_Thanatar

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

Also, they're not really Greyshields anymore. They've been assigned a chapter. I don't remember if the story mentions the color of their armor but they've probably already had it repainted since they're so close to their new homeworld. If previous books are anything to go on, they've probably begun to emesh themselves in whatever is known about the rites and rituals of their chapter. They'll already strongly consider themselves members of the chapter by now, I don't doubt. This isn't a much different situation than if the marines being brought back to the chapter had been a crusade fleet gone for a long while who needed the custodes to give them a ride.

 

If they're not Greyshields then the text shouldn't have directly called them Greyshields. The point I was trying to get at is they weren't untested rookies that have never seen Chaos before. They've already fought for the Imperium in the Indomitus Crusade, and have probably faced Chaos before. They have had no contact with the Brazen Drakes and there's nothing to suggest that these 2 Companies of Primaris are anything other than loyal Astartes.

 

 

In this setting, trust is a liability. It isn't just "black and grey morality", it is a marine chapter going rogue. When an entire chapter goes rogue, as appears to be happening here, the #1 priority isn't being careful about who is or isn't guilty, it is damage control. You need to contain the damage immediately, otherwise you have another Horus Heresy or Badab War on your hands. If a few squads of Greyshields have to die to accomplish that, then it is a price worth paying. He isn't being a petty thug, anymore than many in the setting are, he is being a surgeon excising the cancer with a liberal eye to the future.

But it's not an entire Chapter going rogue. It's 2 Companies that have never met the Chapter proper and didn't even know anything was amiss until Tyvar branded them traitors by association.

 

 

When a marine chapter goes rogue, standard operating procedure is to purge everyone, root and branch, to contain the heresy.

This just isn't true. Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Black Wings, Crimson Castellans, Minotaurs, Executioners, Lamenters, Mantis Warriors, Relictors (OK, they were eventually purged, but they got many more chances than these Primaris did), Doom Warriors and Inceptors all stand as counter examples there. All have spent time on the wrong side of Imperial 'justice', but they survived. Even the Astral Claws (far more guilty than these Greyshields) weren't automatically and blithely purged. They had a trial.

 

 

It doesn't matter. The Custodes have the same authority over marines as they would over guardsmen, absolute authority. The marines might not appreciate that, but their appreciation doesn't matter.

Yes it does. It's always been a fact of the fluff that Inquisitors (the other guys with technically unlimited authority) have to treat Marines differently (more respectfully) than Guardsmen, just like Lord Commanders and Warmasters get different treatment to Colonels. Also, aren't Custodes meant to be trained diplomats (amongst their many skills)? Tyvar here acted like a /tg/ parody of a Commissar, not an experienced transhuman polymath (which is what Custodes are meant to be, they're not just fighters).

 

 

"We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them!" To allow them to do what they wanted would be to send reinforcements to traitors.

Not really, that 'aid' is clearly contingent on there being surviving, loyal, Brazen Drakes. That sentence is directly preceded by "This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy." At worst that's naive (although it's before the Inquisitorial seal is mentioned) not traitorous.

 

 

They were already trying to figure out some way to convince the others to side with the heretic astartes forces on the planet in spite of an inquisitorial edict on the subject.

This is just not correct. That happens before Tyvar drops the edict. After that the only words spoken are: "‘You give us no chance to speak in our defence! These sins are not ours to account for! We have fought loyally and done no wrong, and now–’". It's a protestation of innocence and dissociation.

 

 

So? The chapter on that planet "fought and bled for the Imperium" many times, no doubt. The loyalty of the past does not forgive the treason of the present.

And the Primaris committed no treason until the Custodes drew first blood.

 

 

The custodes gave the marines more than one opportunity to back down, but they neglected it at each turn, in their arrogance.

84 Words, probably less than a minute. To go from the expectation of (arguably) the proudest moment of their careers, uniting with their new brothers in service of the Emperor to being branded literally the worst thing possible in their belief system. And the Marines were the arrogant ones? Once again, all the Marines did was protest.

 

Are there ways this story could have been written so that Tyvar was more justified? Absolutely, but that isn't what happened here. This was a trained superhuman diplomat deliberately scorning any chance at a diplomatic solution because he wanted blood. His pigheaded bloodlust cost the Imperium at least 200 Space Marines in this story, he's done far more to damage the Imperium than most heretics ever do.

 

The Grey Knights murder guardsmen who see Daemons and one time even butchered some loyal Sisters of Battle to fight Khorne daemons. It happens. Not every Custode would react the same way and even the Sister of Silence seems rather shocked by what they just did. 

And that fluff was deservedly mocked for being varying degrees of stupid and nonsensical (to the point that they retconned the 'need to turn Sisters into armour paint to get extra incorruptible' incident).