Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[Volt]

These Custodes are more like the grimderp Commisars we love to poke fun at

Or the memes people make about Inquisitors being able to call exterminatus willy nilly, whereas in "reality" that has consequences and will get an Inquisitor blammed in turn for doing. This feels more like something that would happen in the wacky satiric meme world of Alfabusa's Tex to Speech than actual canon.

[Filkarion]

I liked this, while my wife did not, so I can understand both points of view in like/dislike this story

 

What I love is that this is a story lead to tragedy by the lack of things in the various side of this fight.

 

Custodes lack Empathy. They can be trained diplomats, but do not get the emotional part of Primaris response... Or maybe it is a test: maybe he wanted to threat the marines to see if they submit or argue in defense of them and their "brothers"

But Marines lack Fear, and this in critical in a way, as submission (especially to threats) is always somewhat difficult to Astartes, when not self imposed. So they fail to surrender and execute the disarm order.

Sisters of Silence lack Voice (Literally but also metaphorically there). They see what is incoming but really cannot do a thing to stop it, and they can only roll with it when bolters start talking.

Humans lack Strength, so they are largely ignored  by everyone.

 

And this I really like

Edited April 21, 2020 by Filkarion

[b1soul]

It's a tragically illogical story

[Sarges]

Here is info from Andy Clark's Twitter (provided by beast_gts on Dakka):

 

David Wilson @AoZain

Hey @AClark2018, loved "Consequences" on the warcom site. Question: I thought Greyshields would have no direct relation to the new chapter, other then their primarch's geneseed? Why wouldn't they be used to hunt the Drakes and then form a new chapter?

 

Andy Clark is staying home @AClark2018

Replying to @AoZain

1) Hi very glad that you enjoyed it! To answer your question, I think in this instance it’s a case of ‘the Imperium doesn’t always take the most logical course of action’ where intolerance and mistrust are involved. Also, if you caught Duncan’s recent...

2) ...short ‘Burden of Brotherhood’ on warcom you’ll see there’s a bit more awry than perhaps first meets the eye. Besides which, there’s some major historical mistrust lingering between the Custodes and the Adeptus Astartes, and it’s likely that coloured Tyvar’s judgement.

3) hope that’s helpful

[sairence]

I haven't gotten around to reading all comments, but what I've seen seems to ignore or dismiss the trigger for all this very easily.

An Inquisitor of the Ordo Heretics has declared an ENTIRE chapter of Astartes as traitors to the Imperium. Not some individual, the whole chapter. In a war zone. The implication of the start of the story is that the Brazen Drakes were at least in some way involved in starting that war.

I know people like to joke about how Inquisitors are a bit trigger happy, but declaring a whole chapter Heretics Extremis is not a minor thing that would be done on a whim. A whole chapter going rogue is a big deal.

In my reading the judgement was up on the ship's screen, so everyone on the bridge would be aware of the situation. It's a situation where you could try to be calm and assess the situation one step at a time, but the potential risk of that could doom your entire fleet. You don't really have the luxury of calm consideration, it's obey or die.

Also, what seems to have been glossed over here so far...the SM captain was in touch with his marines and they were apparently ready and willing to take up arms against everyone else in an instant on his command.
"Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!"
We have to assume the Marines would follow their Captain's command, even without being aware of the Inquisition's verdict.

Which is exactly what the Shield Captain means when he accuses them of choosing Chapter over Emperor.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Kelborn
spoiler tags

[Kelborn]

=][=

 

Reviewed and added spoiler tags to the latest posts.

 

Yes, this story is freely accessible for everyone at the Warhammer Community site. Nonetheless do the BL subforum rules apply here, as well.

 

Keep in mind to use spoiler tags.

 

Thanks.

 

=][=

[SpecialIssue]

I think people are underestimating how old-school the Imperium is culturally, particularly (especially) for elite forces like the Custodes. Even in the Great Crusade, the Emperor demanded completely blind loyalty to Himself on the pain of death. Even if the Imperial Cult was not a thing, there was certainly a personality cult encouraged by the Emperor.

 

I don't find it surprising at all, even without all this new anti-Astartes bias injected into their institution, for a force genetically engineered to be fanatically loyal to the Emperor above all else (illustrated with them sequestering themselves for 10 millennia to guard his corpse when he fell); would even for a moment try to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who has been judged treasonous by another legitimate institution of the Imperium and also refuses to submit to their will and judgement (and thus their master) wholeheartedly.

 

You think that the Custodes, since they come from an age of supposed rationalism would be 'nicer' or more amenable? Rationalism guarantees neither of these things. If the first and only thing that matters is loyalty to the Emperor, then rationally if you are not able to show it when we demand it as the His handcrafted personal guard... 

 

40k as whole, the Emperor included, is not some romanticized United State of Rome in Space. The people and institutions involved are draconian and mercurial as our ancient civilizations were, placing far more importance on things such as loyalty, hierarchy, submission, fanaticism (secular or religious), mysticism, symbols and morale at the expense of things like material expenditure, individuality, truth, etc.

 

Their culture is separated from ours by more time than we are to the Babylonians and often through an unknowable, unflinching post-human lens; and yet we think they should act just like we would, with our own 'rationality'.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

In my reading the judgement was up on the ship's screen, so everyone on the bridge would be aware of the situation. It's a situation where you could try to be calm and assess the situation one step at a time, but the potential risk of that could doom your entire fleet. You don't really have the luxury of calm consideration, it's obey or die.

I don't think this is borne out in the text tbh. Note how the Inquisitorial judgement isn't brought up the first time the hololith is mentioned, as once it is directly mentioned Gerion shuts up. It also marks the shift in the Primaris complaints from 'we don't even know what's going on here' to 'these sins aren't ours'.

 

 

Also, what seems to have been glossed over here so far...the SM captain was in touch with his marines and they were apparently ready and willing to take up arms against everyone else in an instant on his command.

"Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!"

We have to assume the Marines would follow their Captain's command, even without being aware of the Inquisition's verdict.

You're definitely reading too much into it here. Marines go about ship armed and armoured, that's always been the case. Therefore they also have their comms, as that's part of the armour. Marines are also always ready to fight, that's part of what makes them Marines. What happens isn't some engineered mutiny by the Marines, it''s literally a warning 'the fleet has turned hostile against us, it's us or them'. You also left out the first bit of that command "Brothers, we are betrayed!". It's not some evil scheme by Gerion and his men, it's the only plausibly reaction a Marine would take under the circumstances enforced on them by this thug of a Custodes.

 

 

Which is exactly what the Shield Captain means when he accuses them of choosing Chapter over Emperor.

Which is supremely blinkered and hypocritical of him. They didn't choose Chapter over Emperor (except in Tyyvar's demented mind where anything other than fawning acquiescence to him seems to be 'heretical'). They 'chose' to defend themselves when he started murdering them. They clearly regard themselves as still Imperial Space Marines and loyal to the Emperor. Remember what Gerion says later "You have torn this fleet in two, traitor! You have turned on the Emperor’s loyal servants. You have slain my brothers and forced my hand!".

 

 

I know people like to joke about how Inquisitors are a bit trigger happy, but declaring a whole chapter Heretics Extremis is not a minor thing that would be done on a whim. A whole chapter going rogue is a big deal.

Thing is, it's a joke with some substance. Examples like the Steel Cobras (declared traitor because a Cardinal didn't like how they venerated the Emperor) and the Damned Company of Lord Caustos (specifically noted as having been branded traitor by the Inquisition on flimsy and circumstantial evidence) clearly demonstrate that Chapters have been branded rogue for very spurious, 'trigger happy' reasons.

 

Once again, the issue ultimately boils down imo to the question 'what are the Custodes meant to be?'. Are they the exhaustively trained, highly intelligent polymaths, or are they blunt, unthinking thugs in fancy armour with a chip on their shoulder. Imo they should be the first (and the 'high level' fluff, so codex, FW book etc. claims that they are this), but this story is the latest example of them being characterised as the latter. What should be wise and noble, the very best of the Imperium (note this doesn't mean 'nice' but it should at least mean 'smart') are instead portrayed like the very worst /tg/ parody of a kill happy Inquisitor or Commissar. Which is why this story sucks. The author could so easily have reached the same end state without making

Tyvar a kill happy idiot who's the entire reason for violence breaking out in the first place

. But, unfortunately, that's not what we got. What we got was

a supposed genius superhuman with training in diplomacy wasting precious Imperial military resources because he's too arrogant/stupid/predjudiced to try to use any kind of diplomacy to diffuse a tense (but entirely non violent) situation

. Edited April 22, 2020 by Leif Bearclaw

[Felix Antipodes]

After reading the quote from Andy Clark's Twitter feed I can see what he was aiming for in this story. I just think he missed the target.

 

One of the worrying things to me is that it was stated several times in the fluff that all the HH era Custodes are long gone. So where did he get his antipathy to Astartes from?

[Robbienw]

Passed down culturally from other Custodes and also might have something to do with the vast amount of traitor space marines at large

 

Custodes are learned and aware of the past history of the imperium.

 

I find the whole reaction to the fluff funny, particularly in light of the fact it was the Custodes who forced the Primaris reinforcements and technology on many Space Marine chapters with threats of destruction if they didnt accept :lol:

Edited April 22, 2020 by Robbienw

[b1soul]

Why suspect these Greyshields of taint though? It's utterly nonsensical.

 

If you're gonna throw around nonsensical suspicion, might as well view all loyalist marines as likely tainted...since there are renegades out there of every loyalist marine lineage.

[Lucerne]

Why suspect these Greyshields of taint though? It's utterly nonsensical.

 

If you're gonna throw around nonsensical suspicion, might as well view all loyalist marines as likely tainted...since there are renegades out there of every loyalist marine lineage.

Yes, that seems to be a not inconsiderable POV among the Custodes.

[Biscuittzz]

 

Here is info from Andy Clark's Twitter (provided by beast_gts on Dakka):

 

David Wilson @AoZain

Hey @AClark2018, loved "Consequences" on the warcom site. Question: I thought Greyshields would have no direct relation to the new chapter, other then their primarch's geneseed? Why wouldn't they be used to hunt the Drakes and then form a new chapter?

 

Andy Clark is staying home @AClark2018

Replying to @AoZain

1) Hi very glad that you enjoyed it! To answer your question, I think in this instance it’s a case of ‘the Imperium doesn’t always take the most logical course of action’ where intolerance and mistrust are involved. Also, if you caught Duncan’s recent...

2) ...short ‘Burden of Brotherhood’ on warcom you’ll see there’s a bit more awry than perhaps first meets the eye. Besides which, there’s some major historical mistrust lingering between the Custodes and the Adeptus Astartes, and it’s likely that coloured Tyvar’s judgement.

3) hope that’s helpful

 

 

His reply does nothing to even answer the question. I'm actually getting tired of the 'but the Imperium is really grimdark so common sense isn't always on show' as a way to excuse horrendous writing. It's almost getting to levels of 'let's split up one by one and go search in the darkness for the serial killer' type of storytelling.

 

I can get behind the whole Custodes don't trust astartes since the Heresy kind of thing but it's hamfisted in this instance. 

[Volt]

I think people are underestimating how old-school the Imperium is culturally, particularly (especially) for elite forces like the Custodes. Even in the Great Crusade, the Emperor demanded completely blind loyalty to Himself on the pain of death. Even if the Imperial Cult was not a thing, there was certainly a personality cult encouraged by the Emperor.

 

I don't find it surprising at all, even without all this new anti-Astartes bias injected into their institution, for a force genetically engineered to be fanatically loyal to the Emperor above all else (illustrated with them sequestering themselves for 10 millennia to guard his corpse when he fell); would even for a moment try to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who has been judged treasonous by another legitimate institution of the Imperium and also refuses to submit to their will and judgement (and thus their master) wholeheartedly.

 

You think that the Custodes, since they come from an age of supposed rationalism would be 'nicer' or more amenable? Rationalism guarantees neither of these things. If the first and only thing that matters is loyalty to the Emperor, then rationally if you are not able to show it when we demand it as the His handcrafted personal guard... 

 

40k as whole, the Emperor included, is not some romanticized United State of Rome in Space. The people and institutions involved are draconian and mercurial as our ancient civilizations were, placing far more importance on things such as loyalty, hierarchy, submission, fanaticism (secular or religious), mysticism, symbols and morale at the expense of things like material expenditure, individuality, truth, etc.

 

Their culture is separated from ours by more time than we are to the Babylonians and often through an unknowable, unflinching post-human lens; and yet we think they should act just like we would, with our own 'rationality'.

Ancient civilizations were not some slathering barbarians incapable of allowing complex conscious thought to form. This isn't realism, it's ReALiSm, where the author writes something that fundamentally does not make sense and speaks of either completely ignoring the descriptive content for the faction (enlightened warrior-scholars a step above all other creations of the Emperor save for maybe the Primarchs), or being ignorant of some history they seek to ape. Wherein the author knows of Roman failures, yet becomes obsessed with them and forgets these ancient empires were not slathering barbarous realms of violence and zealotry but perfectly normal humans acting as humans. The problem isn't that posthumans aren't acting like us, it's that the posthumans are acting like devolved humans with mental faculties so woefully pathetic that you could place literal human children in this situation and they would prove more rational and adept at preventing a violent situation from erupting.

 

This isn't a case of cultural dissonance, this is a case of any civilization in the planet that lasted for more than a century would look at this century and conclude the Custodes involved were absolute morons unfit for civic service, possibly responding with execution for the scale of the screwup. Need I also point out that historical civilizations were far more pragmatic as well than the idiocy GW often trots out illogically for the Imperium, such as settling formerly hostile peoples within their borders (aka the alien) to provide military service in exchange for grants of land? Or making vassals of enemy polities instead of simply exterminating them, in order to form buffer states that would economically bolster your country with trade while simultaneously acting as a speedbump against more distant invaders?

 

You also cannot paint with the brush of "lol the imperium is just dumb" when that creates a dichotomy with the Imperium's age. If standard operating procedure in the Imperium was this stupid, it wouldn't last a century, let alone 11,000 years. And no, the sheer momentum of an empire of its size doesn't mean it would somehow survive longer purely because of its behemoth stature. Large empires have a precedent in history for shattering in mere decades or even years, let alone centuries. If the Custodes keep acting like this, then the Chaos Space Marine ranks should be bolstered with thousands of Primaris Marines, supplied Primaris geneseed, and able to completely usurp the Imperium's advantage over Chaos in the course of the Ultima Crusade. The only realistic conclusion this short story blurb should result in is Guilliman sending the Shield Captain on a suicide mission or executing him for his crimes.

[Phoebus]

Andy Clark’s story centers on themes and concepts that are apropos to the setting (distrust between factions, blind zealotry, overkill overreactions), but the way they were used felt forced to me. To be clear, there’s nothing wrong with Andy aiming for “the Imperium doesn’t always take the most logical course of action,” but I don’t think the way he this was true to his characters and their abilities:

Are Custodians distrustful of the Adeptus Astartes? Yes, and for good reason: it’s been described more than once that Space Marines turn renegade at a frightening rate. On the other hand, Custodians are also consistently described as very astute, supremely intellectual, and perceptive to a superhuman extent. Lore from recent novels and their codex alike also depicts them as lucid, pragmatic, and rational — especially when compared to other agents of the Imperium of Man. Tyvar’s reaction to the events Clark presented — and his decision to assign collective guilt, specifically — doesn’t seem reflective of such a creature; it struck me as being more apropos of a Puritan Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor. With that in mind, if Clark was committed to describing the events in question in that specific a manner, he should perhaps have used agents more suited to bringing them about.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Phoebus

[Lucerne]

Andy Clark’s story centers on themes and concepts that are apropos to the setting (distrust between factions, blind zealotry, overkill overreactions), but the way they were used felt forced to me. To be clear, there’s nothing wrong with Andy aiming for “the Imperium doesn’t always take the most logical course of action,” but I don’t think the way he this was true to his characters and their abilities:

 

Are Custodians distruplease be quietl of the Adeptus Astartes? Yes, and for good reason: it’s been described more than once that Space Marines turn renegade at a frightening rate. On the other hand, Custodians are also consistently described as astute, intellectual, and perceptive. Lore from recent novels and their codex alike depicts them as lucid, pragmatic, and rational — especially when compared to other agents of the Imperium of Man. With that in mind, Tyvar’s reaction to the events Clark presented — and his decision to assign collective guilt, specifically — struck me as being more apropos of an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor than a Shield-Captain of the Adeptus Custodes.

Again, this isn't even the second time there have been spiteful, hateful Custodians that would gladly see the galaxy burn so much as it doesn't directly affect the Imperial Palace.

[Volt]

Are Custodians distruplease be quietl of the Adeptus Astartes? Yes, and for good reason: it’s been described more than once that Space Marines turn renegade at a frightening rate. On the other hand, Custodians are also consistently described as very astute, supremely intellectual, and perceptive to a superhuman extent. Lore from recent novels and their codex alike also depicts them as lucid, pragmatic, and rational — especially when compared to other agents of the Imperium of Man. Tyvar’s reaction to the events Clark presented — and his decision to assign collective guilt, specifically — doesn’t seem reflective of such a creature; it struck me as being more apropos of a Puritan Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor. With that in mind, if Clark was committed to describing the events in question in that specific a manner, he should perhaps have used agents more suited to bringing them about.

The problem is that this runs into the issue of GW never actually showing, or comprehending, what their numbers mean. Marines are supposed to turn at a frightening rate... even though as far as we know there have only been a paltry amount of Chapters who turned renegade after ten thousand years. That is an insane amount of time, and even with the extended lifespan of marines and lengthy "generations" can have, it's a pretty rock solid failure rate compared to just using normal humans. If GW really wants to hammer home the themes they try, then they need to actually work with what they have on hand, and understand the scale of time they themselves have established. GW will wax about people being geniuses, failure rates being extreme, or similar sweeping statements - but then utterly fail to deliver upon these promises whenever the time comes to actually write about them.

[b1soul]

Spiteful, irrational Custodes exist in the fluff...that doesn't make them any less jarring compared to the portrayals by better writers like Wraight.

 

Again, this would make more sense in a third edition IG codex:

 

Replace the Custodes with a rigid Commissar, the Greyshields with fresh reinforfements, and the renegade chapter with a renegade IG regiment

 

...and you have a satirical tale highlighting what I like to term Grimderp.

[Moonreaper666]

 

Are Custodians distruplease be quietl of the Adeptus Astartes? Yes, and for good reason: it’s been described more than once that Space Marines turn renegade at a frightening rate. On the other hand, Custodians are also consistently described as very astute, supremely intellectual, and perceptive to a superhuman extent. Lore from recent novels and their codex alike also depicts them as lucid, pragmatic, and rational — especially when compared to other agents of the Imperium of Man. Tyvar’s reaction to the events Clark presented — and his decision to assign collective guilt, specifically — doesn’t seem reflective of such a creature; it struck me as being more apropos of a Puritan Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor. With that in mind, if Clark was committed to describing the events in question in that specific a manner, he should perhaps have used agents more suited to bringing them about.

The problem is that this runs into the issue of GW never actually showing, or comprehending, what their numbers mean. Marines are supposed to turn at a frightening rate... even though as far as we know there have only been a paltry amount of Chapters who turned renegade after ten thousand years. That is an insane amount of time, and even with the extended lifespan of marines and lengthy "generations" can have, it's a pretty rock solid failure rate compared to just using normal humans. If GW really wants to hammer home the themes they try, then they need to actually work with what they have on hand, and understand the scale of time they themselves have established. GW will wax about people being geniuses, failure rates being extreme, or similar sweeping statements - but then utterly fail to deliver upon these promises whenever the time comes to actually write about them.

Maybe have the Renegades vastly outnumber the Loyalist Space Marines even before 13th Black Crusade. Even with the constant purging of any recent defectors to Chaos by the Grey Knights, Red Scorpions, Red Hunters, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Inquisition, the Renegades still vastly outnumber the Loyalist. I am talking about those Chaos Renegades that did not join one of the Traitor Legions like the Crimson Slaughter or Red Corsairs

 

Have it be like Guard vs Traitor Guard. The Imperial Guard technically outnumbers the Traitor Guard (not including Cultists, Mutants, Beastmen or those attached to Traitor Legions like the Prospero Spireguard) because of the higher attrition rate of the Traitor Guard, until the 13th Black Crusade and Great Rift

 

Justify the Imperium's insane paranoia overkill.

 

Be in the shoes of an Imperial official unable to sleep because an endless tide of Renegade Astartes and Traitor Guard is eager and waiting to devour the Imperium whole. Fully justified fear in an uncaring reality

 

And with the Great Rift, the already humungous number of Renegade Astartes and Traitor Guard is spiking while the number of True Loyalist Space Marines and Loyal Guardsmen is dwindling. Feel like being submerge in black goo unable to breathe. Even the Custodes would be unhinge and paranoid

 

Primaris Marines despite saving the Imperium from certain death are cheap and expendable. Every second of a Custodes life matters more than two Companies of quite frankly green Astartes.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Kelborn
removed rl comparisons

[Kelborn]

Stay away of such real-life comparisons.

 

I'm saying this as both, member and mod. They're are everything else than productive.

[Phoebus]

 

Are Custodians distruplease be quietl of the Adeptus Astartes? Yes, and for good reason: it’s been described more than once that Space Marines turn renegade at a frightening rate. On the other hand, Custodians are also consistently described as very astute, supremely intellectual, and perceptive to a superhuman extent. Lore from recent novels and their codex alike also depicts them as lucid, pragmatic, and rational — especially when compared to other agents of the Imperium of Man. Tyvar’s reaction to the events Clark presented — and his decision to assign collective guilt, specifically — doesn’t seem reflective of such a creature; it struck me as being more apropos of a Puritan Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor. With that in mind, if Clark was committed to describing the events in question in that specific a manner, he should perhaps have used agents more suited to bringing them about.

The problem is that this runs into the issue of GW never actually showing, or comprehending, what their numbers mean. Marines are supposed to turn at a frightening rate... even though as far as we know there have only been a paltry amount of Chapters who turned renegade after ten thousand years. That is an insane amount of time, and even with the extended lifespan of marines and lengthy "generations" can have, it's a pretty rock solid failure rate compared to just using normal humans. If GW really wants to hammer home the themes they try, then they need to actually work with what they have on hand, and understand the scale of time they themselves have established. GW will wax about people being geniuses, failure rates being extreme, or similar sweeping statements - but then utterly fail to deliver upon these promises whenever the time comes to actually write about them.

 

To be fair, however, we’re only aware of, what, five or six hundred named Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes? Remember, a thousand Chapters is just the purported strength of the Adeptus Astartes circa the end of M41. The actual number of Chapters created since M31, that have since been destroyed, gone missing, or have otherwise expunged from the record must make that figure higher. And beyond that, Space Marines may indeed go renegade at a far lower rate than normal men and women, but their worth and capacity for destruction (individually but also cumulatively, when considering their fleets and resources) mean the defection of a Chapter has a far greater impact than many regiments mutinying at once.

 

Beyond that, we have to recognize that certain aspects of the setting will get relatively less coverage than others, without them being any less important. Real world considerations, like what factions get priority of spotlight, will determine how much of a given product you see... and how much coverage it will get in the lore. All things considered, I think in recent years there’s been an effort to show just how many loyalists have turned renegade.

 

 

Andy Clark’s story centers on themes and concepts that are apropos to the setting (distrust between factions, blind zealotry, overkill overreactions), but the way they were used felt forced to me. To be clear, there’s nothing wrong with Andy aiming for “the Imperium doesn’t always take the most logical course of action,” but I don’t think the way he this was true to his characters and their abilities:

 

Are Custodians distruplease be quietl of the Adeptus Astartes? Yes, and for good reason: it’s been described more than once that Space Marines turn renegade at a frightening rate. On the other hand, Custodians are also consistently described as astute, intellectual, and perceptive. Lore from recent novels and their codex alike depicts them as lucid, pragmatic, and rational — especially when compared to other agents of the Imperium of Man. With that in mind, Tyvar’s reaction to the events Clark presented — and his decision to assign collective guilt, specifically — struck me as being more apropos of an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor than a Shield-Captain of the Adeptus Custodes.

Again, this isn't even the second time there have been spiteful, hateful Custodians that would gladly see the galaxy burn so much as it doesn't directly affect the Imperial Palace.

 

I can’t argue with generalizations, Lucerne, and I genuinely don’t want to argue with your personal interpretations of the canon. I don’t think the descriptors I provided above are inaccurate. I don’t have a problem with Custodians not trusting Space Marines, nor do I take issue with a Custodian carrying out a pogrom on them. I just don’t think the way those events were executed in this story do justice to the strengths inherent in the characters Clark was presenting. We may have to agree to disagree.

[Brother Lunkhead]

"It has been described more tha once that Space Marines turn renegade at a frightening rate."

 

I'm seeing this stated a number of times in your arguments, but I'm not seeing any references. I'm not saying you're wrong, but to validate this view I'd like to see sepific references...... more than one.

[Phoebus]

"It has been described more tha once that Space Marines turn renegade at a frightening rate."

 

I'm seeing this stated a number of times in your arguments, but I'm not seeing any references. I'm not saying you're wrong, but to validate this view I'd like to see sepific references...... more than one.

 

I can’t find the specific quote that I was looking for (I really should use the bookmark function more often), but here are two recent quotes that point to the frequency with which the Adeptus Astartes go renegade, and a broad scope of those numbers:

 

“Although it is rare for Adeptus Astartes to turn from the light of the Emperor, over the span of thousands of years countless Space Marines have done so. Sometimes they fall from grace individually, or in squads or companies, and on very rare occasions, in entire Chapters.”

- 8th Edition Rulebook, pg 101

 

“With each new millennium, dozens of disillusioned or power-hungry Chapters defect, ...”

 

- Codex Heretic Astartes — Chaos Space Marines, pg 13

 

While acknowledging the language used above is intended for impact, “dozens” of Chapters turning renegade every millennium would result in hundreds having done so by M41. That’s of course not taking into account the far more numerous instances of smaller-scale defections. Even taking into account attrition, that is staggering testimony to how insidious and corrupting the Ruinous Powers are.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Phoebus

[jaxom]

One aspect of the lore that I haven't seen mentioned much so far is how insidious Chaos taint can be. We have a examples of a warp breach manifesting from a computer running simulations of battles against daemons, an entire planetary population going heretic over an orchestral movement (and that was a Nurgle scheme no less), a language where one word is capable of altering reality, planetary alignments which cause mass mutation and overnight insanity, industrial abattoirs taken over by Khorne cults exporting tainted meat throughout a solar system, warp powered murder-machine child-cuckoos, and accidentally completing a warp breach ritual by executing too many heretics at once to too great an applause.

 

I think it's part of the tragedy inherent to the 40k universe that trust must be measured against such insane possibilities.

[Tyriks]

It's also not like the Primaris have no association with the Drakes. The author seems to use "Greyshields" and "Brazen Drakes" interchangeably, which definitely suggests they've started undergoing chapter indoctrinations, if not having direct contact with the Drakes. I don't love the story but it definitely seems like people are making a huge deal out of very little.