Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[Phoebus]

It's also not like the Primaris have no association with the Drakes. The author seems to use "Greyshields" and "Brazen Drakes" interchangeably, which definitely suggests they've started undergoing chapter indoctrinations, if not having direct contact with the Drakes. I don't love the story but it definitely seems like people are making a huge deal out of very little.

I think that’s one of those examples of stories that generate debate regarding to author’s intent and/or accuracy. “Should” a Greyshield have a weapon with a Brazen Drake motif? “Would” Greyshields be begin indoctrination in their Chapter’s culture and ethos before actually meeting them?

 

Questions, puzzles, etc.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Thanks for the quotes Phoebus. The two quotes however, do contradict each other. While the quote from 8th Ed. states that turning to Chaos is rare among the Adeptus Astartes, the other claims dozens of chapters have defected each millennia. Perhaps there is some truth in both. Over a ten thousand years span, perhaps a few dozen chapters have gone renegade. Probably not as many as some claim, but more than the Imperium is comfortable admitting to.

 

Clear as mud, and very fitting for the 40Kverse.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[b1soul]

Greyshields are reinforcements destined to the chapter but with no prior contact with the chapter

[Brother Lunkhead]

Guilt by association fits neatly with the hubris of the various Imperial institutions in the 40Kverse.

 

Acting without thinking seems to be another common theme.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Phoebus]

Thanks for the quotes Phoebus. The two quotes however, do contradict each other. While the quote from 8th Ed. states that turning to Chaos is rare among the Adeptus Astartes, the other claims dozens of chapters have defected each millennia. Perhaps there is some truth in both. Over a ten thousand years span, perhaps a few dozen chapters have gone renegade. Probably not as many as some claim, but more than the Imperium is comfortable admitting to.

 

Clear as mud, and very fitting for the 40Kverse.

It depends on how you look at it. What the quote in question says is that, once every 40 years on average, one Chapter out of the hundreds that are strewn across a galaxy to fight an endless war against insidious powers on behalf of a largely ungrateful empire goes rogue. Of course, in actuality that translates to recurring tragic events that the forces governing this setting make inevitable. For example, consider the Abyssal Crusade called by Saint Basillius: thirty Chapters were consigned to wage war in the Eye of Terror or face destruction; twenty-five of them were corrupted by Chaos.

 

Guilt by association fits neatly with the hubris of the various Imperial institutions in the 40Kverse.

 

Acting without thinking seems to be another common theme.

I think it’s fair to say that the hubris you describe and acting without thinking are apropos of most of the Adeptus Terra. I’m not sure they’re apropos of the Adeptus Custodes specifically.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Phoebus

[Brother Lunkhead]

Well..... neither is a mathematical statistic. Both are just narratives. One supports one view and one supports another. Either way someone is happy, unless you are a poor soul looking vainly for concistency.

 

When it comes to reckless hubris, it probably shouldn't apply to the Custodes, but it does as far as the author of this story is concerned..... and that's one reason we're all having this spirited discussion

[Phoebus]

Of course they’re both narratives, but neither contradicts the other*, and one gives you a broad idea of how many Chapters have gone renegade since the Second Founding. They’re by no means indicative of a firm number, but nonetheless paint a grim picture.

* Well, not unless you interpret “dozens of times in a millennium” as not being compatible with “very rare,” in which case... to each their own! 

[Brother Lunkhead]

Well...... no. I don't consider "dozens of times in a millennium" compatible with "very rare". I consider it compatible with "alarming" Edited April 24, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Xisor]

I've reservations about the story generally - how do you "flick" blood from an executioner great blade, anyway? - but principally I think the disconnect *everyone* is circling is basically this one. And it summarises the story quite well too.

 

 

(Edit: and it's all too tempting to go on at length on this - like any topic - but you're saved from my nonsense as a meme says a bazillion words, or something like.)

Edited April 24, 2020 by Xisor

[Marshal Rohr]

The biggest issue with the story is no one behaves like this.

[Noserenda]

The biggest issue with the story is no one behaves like this.

Ooooh i wish that were true but presumption of guilt based on bias or stereotypes is far from uncommon. 

[b1soul]

"Guilt by tenuous association" might be the way of the crumbling edifice that is the modern Imperium (e.g. the Arbites, some SM Chapters, the Inquisition, the Commissariat)...no one is saying that this type of thinking is rare within the Imperium.

 

What's jarring is a Custodes who displays this level of irrationality. Of all the Imperial faction, the Adeptus Custodes have stayed most true to the ideals of reason promoted by the Imperium before the Heresy...to the point that many Custodes do not even view themselves as part of the current Imperium.

 

The Custodes pride themselves as rational thinkers who have not strayed from enlightenment, despite the Imperium's descent into darkness and fanaticism all around them.

 

They distrust the Primarchs and Astartes in that they are well aware that half of their number rebelled against their creator. Unlike many other Imperials, the Custodes do not venerate the Primarchs or their spawn. They hold no illusions about them, rather viewing them under the cold light of objectivity...essentially a batch of products, half of which needed to be recalled.

 

The Custodes ultimate purpose is to protect and preserve the Emperor. Their ultimate weapon is the intelligence harnessed to serve that purpose.

 

So IMO a Custodes would not irrationally employ violence against Primaris Greyshields or take actions likely to result in a net negative for the Imperium and by extension the Emperor's safety. The end result of this particular Custodian's actions is ~180 potentially renegade Primaris, pushed to become renegades by his own hand. This is arguably more facepalm than the Emperor-Angron fiasco.

 

I've been spoiled by Wraight. I think Clark could have at least tried to make this more nuanced...but as it is, it reads like one of those Commissar go *blam* memes

[Xisor]

So IMO a Custodes would not irrationally employ violence against Primaris Greyshields or take actions likely to result in a net negative for the Imperium and by extension the Emperor's safety. The end result of this particular Custodian's actions is ~180 potentially renegade Primaris, pushed to become renegades by his own hand. This is arguably more facepalm than the Emperor-Angron fiasco.

 

I've been spoiled by Wraight. I think Clark could have at least tried to make this more nuanced...but as it is, it reads like one of those Commissar go *blam* memes

I mean, I also think Custodians would have the wit to not to do it all in public. Like they're bloody paranoid scholars and games-players, just go use the kill-switch you OBVIOUSLY had Cawl build into the Mk10 armour and have the suits walk the corpses to their barracks and have them never be heard from again.

 

Or something like that.

 

Anyway, I've reservations with the story from almost every angle.

 

The detail that I don't mind? The idea that Space Marines would take umbrage at being treated the same way Space Marines typically treat the rest of the Imperium? Not a problem. The idea that Custodes might be a touch careless?

 

The Custodies turning on people without evidence isn't really the problem - doing it like a bull in a china shop is.

 

Personally, I like the idea that Custodes are a bit more political, sly, scholarly or at least astute. Going for a brawl, on a space ship, in space, with SPACE marines, just seems like the worst possible choices. 

 

And they do have other options. It's not a binary "set up a big lovely trial" or "kill everyone right now, no questions asked". Options that Consequences doesn't consider, or were deemed irrelevant to the story at hand.

 

And really: flick blood from an executioner great blade? Flip me.

[SillyDreadnought]

My main takeaway from this short story is that a Primaris Captain had a heavy bolt pistol as a sidearm.

So, when can I get that for my captains?

[jaxom]

Of all the Imperial faction, the Adeptus Custodes have stayed most true to the ideals of reason promoted by the Imperium before the Heresy...to the point that many Custodes do not even view themselves as part of the current Imperium.

 

The Custodes pride themselves as rational thinkers who have not strayed from enlightenment, despite the Imperium's descent into darkness and fanaticism all around them.

 

Spoilers for pretty much all the Custodes-related books.

 

The Custodes knew the Imperial Truth was a lie; it's part of why they don't see themselves as part of the Imperium. The Imperial Truth was a tool used to make the Imperium. The Imperium was a tool to get the Emperor the materials and galactic reach needed for his greater humanity ascension plans. The Custodes knew they were a different tool with a different purpose than either of those things.

 

Regarding rationality. Master of Mankind, Magisterium, Valdor, Watchers of the Throne books, and Two Metaphysical Blades make it clear the Custodes are rational thinkers within the context of a seemingly irrational universe. They know physical cause-and-effect is not a reliable predictor for the warp, it's minions, and it's impact on physical reality. What makes them rational compared to the majority of the setting is that they don't think of the warp as magic (mysterious and without cause), but following a different set of rules and laws which are impacted both by the observer and the observed. They knew part of the of the Imperial Truth's importance was in the danger's of simple thoughts at the wrong time and wrong place.

[b1soul]

I should probably say they stayed most true to the Emperor's vision of the Imperium, which was essentially a rational and utilitarian approach toward dealing with the universe, including the Warp

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

The biggest issue with the story is no one behaves like this.

Ooooh i wish that were true but presumption of guilt based on bias or stereotypes is far from uncommon.

Not like this. They’ve got a group of people who’ve never been to this planet before and we’re supposed to join them, they show up find out the group they were supposed to join is traitor, and they would’ve just moved them to another chapter.

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][= Alrighythen..... Let's keep things civil, keep your comments constructive, knock off the incendiary remarks, and report anything you find offensive to the Mods rather than replying to the offender. You are just playing their game when you do.

 

Okay..... play nice and stay on topic. =][=

[Roomsky]

My biggest issue with the story is that Andy Clark is no great writing talent.

 

The Custodes action is stupid and irrational, as is the Imperium at large. These circumstances occur in our far more reasonable and tolerant world all the time, and the Imperium is an unnecessarily cruel nightmare future. I’m surprised it’s causing such a debate.

[Matcap86]

Custodes view astartes as a necessary evil which they can't rely on. They are in charge of the protection of the single most important thing in the galaxy and are used to being the final unquestioned judge, jury and executioners in the field.

 

Sure there might be more lenient Custodes. But this one wasn't having any :cuss. He is alone on the bridge, surrounded by potential hostiles (in his view) and has the drop on them. He has seen what chaos corruption can do if given the chance and the greyshields won't immediately back down when given a direct order from their superior. Does he resort to violence quickly? Sure. But that's what they are made for. Was it a brilliant story? No, but hardly terrible as it's being made put to be.

[Phoebus]

My biggest issue with the story is that Andy Clark is no great writing talent.

 

The Custodes action is stupid and irrational, as is the Imperium at large. These circumstances occur in our far more reasonable and tolerant world all the time, and the Imperium is an unnecessarily cruel nightmare future. I’m surprised it’s causing such a debate.

I don’t think there’s any debate as to the Imperium being irrational. I think people are taking issue with a Custodian reacting with blinkered assumptions more befitting of other agents of the Imperium.

 

Custodes view astartes as a necessary evil which they can't rely on. They are in charge of the protection of the single most important thing in the galaxy and are used to being the final unquestioned judge, jury and executioners in the field.

 

Sure there might be more lenient Custodes. But this one wasn't having any . He is alone on the bridge, surrounded by potential hostiles (in his view) and has the drop on them. He has seen what chaos corruption can do if given the chance and the greyshields won't immediately back down when given a direct order from their superior. Does he resort to violence quickly? Sure. But that's what they are made for. Was it a brilliant story? No, but hardly terrible as it's being made put to be.

Perhaps, then, Clark should have invested more time providing insight on the Custodian’s thought process than detailing a combat scene we’ve seen many times already or delivering the Sister’s rather pedestrian observations.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Phoebus

[b1soul]

We could get into what nuance exists in the story

 

The story starts with "Apprehend these traitors" [said the Custodes leader]

 

So they're not temporarily arresting these Greyshields to decide their guilt or innocence later. They're arresting traitors to decide later how to deal with them as the traitors they are.

 

We are also given insight into how the Custodes leader thinks: 

 

"The heretical gene-seed within your bodies is its own condemnation", Tyvar replied, "I am Custodes . . . Were you loyal, you would set down your weapons and accept your guilt [this sentence barely makes sense and smacks of double-think more befitting a red-faced Commissar]."

 

Now, the Greyshield captain, upon first being confronted by the information designating the destinatin chapter as heretical, is taken aback and wants to double-check. However, when the designation (courtesy of the Ordo Hereticus, which (by the way) the Adeptus Custodes isn't in the habit of deferring to or fully trusting) scrolls again across the hololith, another marine merely brings up that the destination chapter's sins would not be the Greyshields' sins. This hapless marine gets lit up before he finishes his full sentence. On top of that, these are Greyshields who have been fighting with the Custodes side by side to get to where they are.

 

The Custodes number around ten thousand, and each is an individual with some personality quirks. I suppose this fellow Tyvar could be an exceptionally choleric and hard-nosed individual, an exception among his typically clear-thinking kind. 

 

Again, I think I've been spoiled by Wraight's "thinking man's Custodes" in the Watchers series, as I don't really enjoy Custodes who read like the angry Commissar or choleric Abaddon charicature. I think   

     

 

On a side note, I think the Imperial Truth is rather unfairly characterised as a total lie by Chaos sympathisers. I understand that the Imperial Truth was essentially rational humanism, which akcnowledged the existence of the Warp and Warp entities, but omitted the existence of incredibly powerful and malevolent intelligences within the Warp. Of course, these intelligences only become more powerful if mortals believe in them. So in that respect, the Imperial Truth strikes me as more of an incomplete description of the Warp, rather than an outright lie.  

[Volt]

Well...... no. I don't consider "dozens of times in a millennium" compatible with "very rare". I consider it compatible with "alarming"

 

That would go a long way in explaining the trigger happy attitude of the Custodes (still not smart writing). Still.... if that were the case you'd think the Imperium would have minders on every chapter, like in the RT days...... aaahhh..... RT days (Brother Lunkhead stares wiplease be quietlly into space ).

A dozen times in a millennium is very rare. That's a failure rate of just 1%, or 12,000 marines per thousand years assuming full strength failure (which it isn't). Which is statistically a very minor rate of growth to enemy ranks compared to say, mortal humans, while also not being a significant addition to enemy resources. And a fairly minor attrition of loyalist resources.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Hail Brother Volt,

 

Statistics are indeed interesting things. Let's take them and look at this issue from another angle.

 

First off, we're talking dozens not one dozen. So, let's be conservative and say two dozen (24,000 Space Marines- we'll keep the thousand per chapter as over time they are not going to be constrained by the codex numbers but they will experience attrition over time, so let's say they are able to maintain a force of at least 1,000 Chaos SM's). Each millennium adds to the numbers. Let's say 1/4 of the newly minted war bands are lost to over enthusiastic misbehavior. Over nine millennium you've got about 162,000 CSM's created by the Imperium of Man, now joined to the forces of Chaos. Current lore places the number of Space Marines across the galaxy at approximately one million (1000 chapters). That works out to about 16 percent of your standing force strength. That's a pee-your-pants alarming number. Don't think Chaos doesn't appreciate this.

 

The following letter is received by the High Lords of Terra:

 

Dear High Lords,

 

On the eve of the 13th Black Crusade, we would like to thank you for the tens of thousands of Space Marines you have gifted to us over the millennia. Considering the effort and expense that goes into creating each Space Marine, your generosity leaves us breathless.

 

Rest assured that your gift has not been squandered. Thousands of Imperial worlds have fallen or been burned and billions of Imperial citizens have been brought to the embracing light of Chaos thanks to you.

 

In the future, as we stride across your corpses and your ruined Imperium, we will think of you fondly.

 

Love,

Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh

 

P.S.

Please give our warmest regards to your Corpse Emperor.

 

While this has been a fun side conversation, it really is off topic . Should you wish to continue, you might consider creating a new thread. I'll be happy to participate.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Xisor]

On a side note, I think the Imperial Truth is rather unfairly characterised as a total lie by Chaos sympathisers. I understand that the Imperial Truth was essentially rational humanism, which akcnowledged the existence of the Warp and Warp entities, but omitted the existence of incredibly powerful and malevolent intelligences within the Warp. Of course, these intelligences only become more powerful if mortals believe in them. So in that respect, the Imperial Truth strikes me as more of an incomplete description of the Warp, rather than an outright lie.

It's a fair side note, and a view that's pleasantly in line with some views discussed in of Josh's Fabius novels. That is: the great powers of the Warp might be analogous to gods, and might respond to worship, and might be "real" - but does that really disprove anything the Truth was teaching? E.g. Don't worship these things, don't absolve your own morality to anything that isn't the Imperial line: "do as you're told, don't think for yourself, work yourself into the grave and die happy knowing you've contributed to human survival in a hostile universe".

 

Construing it as a lie is like a technicality.

 

If you'd seen the meme doing the rounds that "the sun is the closest we have to an eldritch god: - baleful // critical to all of our life // was here before we were born // will be here long after we die // basically eternal, from the pov of all of human existence // hurts to behold // burns you if you're not careful // messes with your life in unknowable ways" - all of that's technically compelling. (And chimes neatly with the old Imperial Sun-as-the-Emperor cults!)

 

But even if you wrly accept it, you don't start suddenly saying "atheism is a lie, look at the sun! Atheists are idiots, just another dogmatic religion!"

 

To me that's what the "the Imperial Truth is a lie" comes across as.

 

But then I've never really yet read a compelling account for the godliness of Chaos - not really. It's never felt like a pull that you'd just... Succumb to. Rather it's all a bit faustian and transactional. Mechanical, even.

 

Rarely - though some of the good Word Bearer ones have almost quite got the measure of it - have stories quite pulled me into sympathising with the "it is a lie, look, here are gods and you could worship them today, if you just open your heart!".

 

But that's an endemic thing in 40k - historical schism and heresy and treachery are all a bit more involved.

 

In this story, and certainly in our responses to it, I think we're treating it twofold, either:

1- Heresy is just a name for a serious crime, and you wouldnt execute someone without first finding out if they're guilty? (:cuss, "innocence proves nothing" isn't merely an aesthetic in 40k. I don't see why fans think Marines and Custodes would be exempt.)

 

2- If you've been personally betrayed by someone you trusted, then it's your right to wreak vengeance on the filfthy betrayers as you see fit, and anyone trying to stop you has probably betrayed you too. Religiously, that rings true for the Imperium - casting it more like a contagious mania, a Plague of unbelief and heresy, rather than a set of complicated circumstances that might mean the faction is a traitor, but the people here aren't. But, if you're susceptible to the righteous mania that the traitors have betrayed YOU...

 

That hyperbolic view on treachery and betrayal - you've been wronged so any response is right - at least is plausible for 40k, but less plausible for supersoldiers who are supposed to at least have brains on them.

 

It might be fine and dandy for Inquisitors to do what they want, but we'd expect more hesitation from a Custodian, seeing as they would have some insight into the human variability and agendas of the Inquisition. Not that the Custodes would be concerned with a "fair trial" and "due process", but that they might be at least invested in not becoming pawns of the enemy (or pawns of disreputable Inquisitors, at least).

 

Like, that we don't have any view of what sort of vigilance or process Tyvar undertakes to be certain his orders are correct, or who they're coming from... None of any of that, it suddenly feels quite dodgy and awkward indeed.

 

As none of that's mentioned in the story and exactly like that other meme, it reads precisely like:

 

"Well, I just seen on TV that the Brazen Drakes have gone traitor...

 

"So anyway, I started blasting."

Edited April 25, 2020 by Xisor