Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[jaxom]

Spoilers for Horus Rising and Valdor.

 

The Imperial Truth was more than just rational atheism. Sindermann gives the most complete description of it as it was during the Great Crusade. Humanity had cast off ignorance, accepted that humanity alone was responsible for its own success and failures, and still gone out to face a harsh universe without recourse to higher, protective powers. Its moral foundation was based on the courage to seek out and accept truth regardless of how discomforting it was. Valdor shows how the Imperial Truth was being used as the foundation for Unity while at the same time the Emperor and his inner circle were actively engaged in the suppression of and misdirection of information. "There are truths too dangerous to know" is a concept completely anathema the Imperial Truth (the courage to face the Truth despite how harmful it can be). It was the building hypocrisy between the two which led to the big gambit as the Emperor completed his Unification of Terra and laid the groundwork for lunar expansion. That gambit was a cull of those who, when faced with obedience to the Emperor and his agents or enforcing the Imperial Truth, chose the Imperial Truth.

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][= While the subject of the Imperial Truth is a fascinating one and worthy of discussion, in and of itself it's "off topic ". =][=

[Scribe]

Is this the story everyone is up in arms over?

 

Imagine thinking the Imperium is just, and logical.

[Scribe]

My biggest issue with the story is that Andy Clark is no great writing talent.

 

The Custodes action is stupid and irrational, as is the Imperium at large. These circumstances occur in our far more reasonable and tolerant world all the time, and the Imperium is an unnecessarily cruel nightmare future. I’m surprised it’s causing such a debate.

 

Ding.

[Medjugorje]

I like the Story. And I like that this Story Shows again that there is no good one in 40k. And i wonder how many People dont like it. For myself I think the most "haters" are newbies that like the idea of the Imperium being the "good ones".

 

btw.. I hope that the fan-theorie ( that the emperors plan was always to become a god) is true in the end.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Finally had a chance to read this much discussed tale, so I'll add my two cents.

 

On the whole it was a technically well executed little shooty story. Unincumbered by too much detail, Andy gets strait to the point. The mayhem scene was well choreographed, and the whole story had a nice fast pace that didn't seem rushed. I would have really enjoyed if not for all the convenient plot devices. It was too well armored imo, and just sank to the bottom of the lake.

 

I'll center my critique around the three main characters. I'm working off my phone, so I hope the B&C spoiler codes work here. If not, this will be short and choppy. Here goes.....

 

Shield-Captain Tyvar-

I think Andy got the personality and attitude of this Custodes officer just right. He's suitably arrogant, blunt in his actions, and sure of his righteous authority to be obeyed without question. Unfortunately, he's oddly situationally unaware.

I can understand his wish to control the Primaris until he has a handle on the situation and detaining them is the simplest and most Custodius way. However, the Custodes are security experts supreme and as soon as he was aware of the heresy problem with the chapter, he could have had his troops in position and Gerion and his retinue under guard and the other Primaris locked down before anyone had time to think. Next he should have known that the Primaris had nothing to do with the rebellion for reasons I'll get to later.

On the whole Tyvar's actions were inappropriate and unworthy of his position.

 

Knight Centura Dessire and her fellow Sisters of Silence-

Once again I think the general characterization is right. She and her retinue are stuck in a situation not of their making and choose the only side they can.

 

My main problem is with the Sister's new superpower enabling them to reduce the lethal speed and power of Primaris Marines to mush. Very convenient.

 

Plot armor conveniently equalizes Primaris and Sisters.

 

Primaris Captain Gerion and his retinue-

"What the......why??" Poor Captain Gerion was screwed by Tyvar and the author. He never had a chance.

 

First thing to clarify is that the Brazen Drakes Primaris are called Greyshields. That means that they were veterans of the Unnumbered Sons of the Primarch and as such are part of Cawl's original batch of Primaris. Martian made from the finest filtered gene-seed from one of the nine original loyalist Chapters, 100 percent pure and free of taint. Until assigned to the Brazen Drakes, they would have worn the livery and been indoctrinated in the ways of the Chapter they were bred from.

 

They not only would not have shared the corruption of their adopted Chapter, they wouldn't even have any real feelings of loyalty to them either. They didn't even get to live long enough to become rebels..... so much for that.

 

There were just too many convenient plot devises and holes for me to take this story serious, or even be upset by it. I can easily dismiss it as five minutes of my life that I'll never get back. I'll miss those five minutes of life though

Edited April 26, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[b1soul]

The Imperium can exhibit irrational stupidity for sure. That level of stupidity is just jarring when it's coming from a Custodes.

 

As I said a few posts back, the Custodes number around ten thousand, and each is an individual with some personality quirks. I suppose this fellow Tyvar could be an exceptionally choleric and hard-nosed individual, an exception among his typically clear-thinking kind.

 

But really, Clark could have done more to add more nuance. Otherwise, this is a real head-scratcher and a clumsy attempt at grimdark.

[SpecialIssue]

I have issue with the apropos of the Custodes being recently clarified in the community to being the absolute shining light and exemplar of everything great about the Emperor, rationalism and loyalty, all baked into their genetics.

 

My view on them is something more fitting to what I saw as 40ks wider viewpoint on ideas such as 'perfection'. That nothing is ever 'perfect' - power always has a trade off. 40k isn't about wish fulfillment but more concerned with the horror of that trade off - moral or physical. Blanks and pariahs, Astartes, Chaos, Necrontyr,  and yes, the Emperor and Custodes. All their power and improvement brings with it some moral or physical cost that is often just as horrible as the foe they are fighting with that power.

 

You want to know what absolute loyalty looks like, and it's cost - I think you only have to look at the (in)actions of the Custodes for 10,000 years, long established in the fiction. Absolute, unshakable, glorious, blinding, blinkered, wasteful loyalty. They will never turn from the Emperor because it has been coded into their very being - yet people seem to think there would be no cost to that, both for them and the wider Imperium (for whatever reason, He also never commanded them during that time to go forth and serve Him in a more generally active way). This whole new idea of active paragons doesn't jive as well in my mind to their historic, leadership-cult actions.

 

When their first and only concern is loyalty to their leader, when you want incorruptibility to be a feature of theirs, this is what you get. They will never take an action that the Emperor has not sanctioned himself, and direct loyalty to Him is the first and only thing they will uphold; over even treasured concepts like rationality that they might practice themselves.

 

I do agree that the sheer bile being generated by the Custodes from the get-go was jarring. If they had simply changed the initial line from "arrest these traitors", to something more neutral like "take them into custody", that would have alleviated the rest of the story completely in my mind (and also simply made the character seem less like a dick). Once any form of resistance to this neutral order has been ascertained, all gloves are off for the Talons, as to refuse them is to refuse the Emperor Himself.

[b1soul]

I'm not sure what the force disposition of Custodes and Greyshields is across the fleet, but...

 

it reads like (not counting the mortal crew on every vessel) the lead vessel carried the Greyshield command squad and the Custodes squad, and the other vessels carried Greyshields only (the bulk of the force).

 

The end of the story ends with the Custodes resolving to hunt down every Brazen Drake (which should now include the remaining 180 plus Greyshields who've likely made a successful run for it).

 

So the idea of labeling the Greyshields as traitors and then killing off their command squad seems very short-sighted. Now you've pushed the Greyshields to go actual renegade and possibly link up with the excommunicated Brazen Drakes chapter.

 

The smarter move would have been simply to confer with the Greyshield captain and propose that they either reinforce another chapter, one with its reputation intact, in the stellar vicinity...or help in the effort to punish the wayward Brazen Drakes. As a general rule, the Custodes don't really trust the Inquisition (or any mortal institution) and are likely aware of the Inquisition's dirty dealings (e.g. Celestial Lions, Space Wolves), so the latter option would be a good way to confirm or disprove the info the Inquisition is feeding them. All the while, the Custodes could continue to observe and secretly reach out to reinforcements of their own. If somehow discovered by the Greyshields, the Custodes could argue that additional strength would be needed to deal with an Astartes chapter if it has gone renegade.

 

This is the sort of subtler planning I'd expect of Custodes written by a good authour. I think this does boil down to Clark being a lesser writer. I've never been impressed by his work and the trend continues.

 

I would also note that I find Tribune Colquan's characterisation by Haley to be disappointing as well...a wasted character in my view

Edited April 26, 2020 by b1soul

[Spectral Bob]

So, it strikes me how there is such an inconsistency with various writer's depiction of Imperial morality/virtue/honor throughout various 40k stories. For example, the Soul Drinkers, who actually turned to Chaos, are in the end, embraced and exonerated by their parent chapter (even given special enshrinement within the Phalanx in remembrance of their existence). While these Greyshields who have never fired even a single shot in rebellion or defiance, are immediately and summarily declared traitor. The Soul Drinkers had physical manifestations of their corruption and mutation!!

 

Granted the Soul Drinkers were declared traitors also, but how does a chapter with a Psychic, Eight-legged spider for a chapter master get a reprieve, but these blokes fresh off the assembly line are slatted for annihilation.

 

I think it would have been more palatable had the Greyshields been caught communicating clandestinely with their parent chapter or some other questionable (though not necessarily damning) evidence that kind of muddied up the issue would have made the story make more sense, at least in terms of the Custodes actions.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Spectral Bob

[Moonreaper666]

I have issue with the apropos of the Custodes being recently clarified in the community to being the absolute shining light and exemplar of everything great about the Emperor, rationalism and loyalty, all baked into their genetics.

 

My view on them is something more fitting to what I saw as 40ks wider viewpoint on ideas such as 'perfection'. That nothing is ever 'perfect' - power always has a trade off. 40k isn't about wish fulfillment but more concerned with the horror of that trade off - moral or physical. Blanks and pariahs, Astartes, Chaos, Necrontyr, and yes, the Emperor and Custodes. All their power and improvement brings with it some moral or physical cost that is often just as horrible as the foe they are fighting with that power.

 

You want to know what absolute loyalty looks like, and it's cost - I think you only have to look at the (in)actions of the Custodes for 10,000 years, long established in the fiction. Absolute, unshakable, glorious, blinding, blinkered, wasteful loyalty. They will never turn from the Emperor because it has been coded into their very being - yet people seem to think there would be no cost to that, both for them and the wider Imperium (for whatever reason, He also never commanded them during that time to go forth and serve Him in a more generally active way). This whole new idea of active paragons doesn't jive as well in my mind to their historic, leadership-cult actions.

 

When their first and only concern is loyalty to their leader, when you want incorruptibility to be a feature of theirs, this is what you get. They will never take an action that the Emperor has not sanctioned himself, and direct loyalty to Him is the first and only thing they will uphold; over even treasured concepts like rationality that they might practice themselves.

 

I do agree that the sheer bile being generated by the Custodes from the get-go was jarring. If they had simply changed the initial line from "arrest these traitors", to something more neutral like "take them into custody", that would have alleviated the rest of the story completely in my mind (and also simply made the character seem less like a dick). Once any form of resistance to this neutral order has been ascertained, all gloves are off for the Talons, as to refuse them is to refuse the Emperor Himself.

In the Codex for Custodes it is shown they do perform secret missions in which they do fight enemies of the Imperium outside the Sol System. However, their main priority is keeping the comatose Emperor alive

 

The Emperor can die permanently and there are plenty of people and things EACH capable of killing the Emperor and the Imperium a dozen times over. Plenty of them WERE imprisoned in the Himalayas! (Thanks to the Great Rift many of the prisoners and dangerous artifacts have escaped!)

[Carach]

that read terribly. not beating up the author on this one because the whole premise I imagine he was given was just nonsensical. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

If you ignore the narrative and look at the premise by itself (rebel Primaris), I don't think it's necessarily a bad one. It has a lot of potential if told right. However, I do suspect the author didn't have much time to write it.

[b1soul]

If you ignore the narrative and look at the premise by itself (rebel Primaris), I don't think it's necessarily a bad one. It has a lot of potential if told right. However, I do suspect the author didn't have much time to write it.

 

Rebel or disgruntled Primaris would be cool. Almost like Primaris Greyshields who become Primaris Blackshields. Not sure I'm ready for Chaos Primaris yet. 

[Rob P]

I tend to agree with Carach.

 

Toxiticity is far too strong a word, but this story and thread does do an amazing job of revealing what is acceptable to some elements of the community and what is too daft for others.

[Phoebus]

 

If you ignore the narrative and look at the premise by itself (rebel Primaris), I don't think it's necessarily a bad one. It has a lot of potential if told right. However, I do suspect the author didn't have much time to write it.

 

Rebel or disgruntled Primaris would be cool. Almost like Primaris Greyshields who become Primaris Blackshields. Not sure I'm ready for Chaos Primaris yet. 

I’m not going to be ready for Chaos Primaris any time soon. It’s going to be too obvious — low-hanging fruit, even. It’s the easy way out, and it ignores that for decades now, this setting has had a prominent Chaos Space Marine whose signature concept is creating horrific evolutions of Space Marines... and was even capable of growing clones of Primarchs.

[JH79]

My main problem is with the Sister's new superpower enabling them to reduce the lethal speed and power of Primaris Marines to mush. Very convenient.

 

Plot armor conveniently equalizes Primaris and Sisters.

This. While the story read like bad fan fiction, i just couldn't disable reality enough to believe the above as it was happening. Are these just normal chicks, as far as a one in a billion psychic blank can be normal, or are they gene enhanced to within an inch of their lives?

 

Having recently devoured Part V of Astartes and re-watched the whole mini series more times than i care to admit, I find it almost impossible to believe that any mortal could stop an Astartes, let alone a next gen Primaris with such ease.

[Brother Lunkhead]

To JH79: in response to your query about the Silent Sistrhood, they are non-enhanced humans with the very rare blank gene. They are highly trained and skilled elite warriors along the lines of the Sororitas.... only not the Sororitas and certainly not Astartes much less Primaris.

 

I have to say, I'm not ready for Chaos Primaris either. Fortunately "Consequences" leaves no consequences.

 

I hope (maybe vainly) GW will be patient and give the Primaris time to settle in before going there. It can be done well or done fast.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Scribe]

For what its worth, the Chaos range was/is not nearly as complete as the Space Marines was, and the Chaos players not nearly tapped out on that range, as the Space Marine players were AND Chaos players are not the whales that Space Marine players are. They dont need to push Primaris Traitorus Marinus on us yet.

 

Everyone knows what Primaris are there for. (Hint: $$$)

 

That said.

 

Chaos Corrupts, and is the undeniable force in the setting. There are already Primaris that have gone traitor. That should be the assumed state of the setting for everyone.

 

Some Primaris not fully grasping the reality of the 40K setting (interesting meta comment on the community there) due to being new kids on the block and getting smacked for it? Seems perfectly in line with 40K.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Scribe

[b1soul]

@JH79

 

You should join the thread on this topic in the Age of Darkness subforum

[JH79]

@JH79

 

You should join the thread on this topic in the Age of Darkness subforum

That moment when you remember that B&C has subforum's outside of The Black Library... cheers for the heads up!

[Brother Lunkhead]

Brother Scribe is defiantly right about Primaris and the $$$$ connection and all that connection implies.

 

Hmmm..... which Primaris have gone traitor already?

[Moonreaper666]

For what its worth, the Chaos range was/is not nearly as complete as the Space Marines was, and the Chaos players not nearly tapped out on that range, as the Space Marine players were AND Chaos players are not the whales that Space Marine players are. They dont need to push Primaris Traitorus Marinus on us yet.

 

Everyone knows what Primaris are there for. (Hint: $$$)

 

That said.

 

Chaos Corrupts, and is the undeniable force in the setting. There are already Primaris that have gone traitor. That should be the assumed state of the setting for everyone.

 

Some Primaris not fully grasping the reality of the 40K setting (interesting meta comment on the community there) due to being new kids on the block and getting smacked for it? Seems perfectly in line with 40K.

Fabius Bile and the Haemonucullia are going to create new monsters based off Primaris

 

Meanwhile, the Chaos Gods will create new warriors. My hope is that these new warriors are not Chaos Space Marines but something akin to a Daemonflesh hybrid that can stay in realspace. The Daemonkin can use claw, resistant to psyker attacks are very fast and some of them have psyker powers. They are a direct counter to Primaris and all other Loyalist Space Marine Chapters

 

Downside is their cost in tabletop. In the lore they need to eat like humans or they will starve to death

[Scribe]

Brother Scribe is defiantly right about Primaris and the $$$$ connection and all that connection implies.

 

Hmmm..... which Primaris have gone traitor already?

 

 

Ones in a story not yet written.

[Commander Dawnstar]

I was wondering if someone could help me get my head around this:

• Three weeks ago we got a story called Burden of Brotherhood in which Chapter Master Corian leads an unnamed Space Marine Chapter away from the Emperor's light after growing sick and tired of summarily executing those Marines under his command who develop latent psychic abilities.
• Last week we saw the topic of this thread, Consequences, where a shipment of "Brazen Drakes Greyshields" arrives at the world of Khassedur where they are to serve under Chapter Master Kaslyn. We're told that their Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.
• Today we received Retaliation, a piece in which an Officio Assassinorum Execution Force is dispatched to eliminate Chapter Master Argento Corian of the Brazen Drakes, a Chapter deemed Excommunicate Traitoris.

The Brazen Drakes are not named in Burden of Brotherhood, while the name given for the Chapter Master in Consequences - Kaslyn - doesn't appear in either of the other stories.

 

Is this an error, Corian replacing Kaslyn prior to Burden of Brotherhood and the Imperium not getting the memo (and the writer not establishing that) or something else?

Edited April 27, 2020 by Commander Dawnstar