Consequences (PA short story - SPOILER discussion)

[Brother Lunkhead]

No doubt, intelligence gleaned from the finest Inquisitorial sources Edited April 27, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Phoebus]

I was wondering if someone could help me get my head around this:

• Three weeks ago we got a story called Burden of Brotherhood in which Chapter Master Corian leads an unnamed Space Marine Chapter away from the Emperor's light after growing sick and tired of summarily executing those Marines under his command who develop latent psychic abilities.
• Last week we saw the topic of this thread, Consequences, where a shipment of "Brazen Drakes Greyshields" arrives at the world of Khassedur where they are to serve under Chapter Master Kaslyn. We're told that their Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.
• Today we received Retaliation, a piece in which an Officio Assassinorum Execution Force is dispatched to eliminate Chapter Master Argento Corian of the Brazen Drakes, a Chapter deemed Excommunicate Traitoris.

The Brazen Drakes are not named in Burden of Brotherhood, while the name given for the Chapter Master in Consequences - Kaslyn - doesn't appear in either of the other stories.

 

Is this an error, Corian replacing Kaslyn prior to Burden of Brotherhood and the Imperium not getting the memo (and the writer not establishing that) or something else?

Given that several other stories in the same series connect with one another, I think you’re on to something.

[jaxom]

The Inquisition is much more delocalized so it's entirely possible the investigation of the Brazen Drakes and declaration of Hereticus Diabolus Extremis was done by an Inquisitorial sector conclave. My guess is that the information about the death of Chapter Master Kasyln and his replacement by Corian hadn't reached the Torchbearer fleet or Indomitus Crusade Command because they're mobile. A message to the High Lords of Terra requesting the deployment of Imperial Assassins, however, has a static target. Similarly, the message authorizing deployment from local Officio Assassinorum temples would have static targets as well.

[Brother Lunkhead]

A very plausible explanation

[Moonreaper666]

So the new Chapter Master Corrian not only damned his Chapter but the Primaris as well. It reminds me of the Soul Drinkers and Red Corsairs as well as why it was necessary to break up the Legions into Chapter

 

Imagine if somebody like Corrian, the Soul Drinkers, Crimson Slaughter, Huron or any other Astarte that did turn against the Imperium led an entire Legion...

 

...the Imperium wouldn't last a thousand years after the Great Scouring. Even if it was a small Legion like the Iron Hands it would break the Imperium

 

Only need to corrupt the leaders of the White Scars, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and Raven Guard Legions ONCE for them to meet the same fate as the Traitor Legions. Imperium looses SIX Legions while Chaos gets six more Legions to play win

[Jareddm]

And just like that, they stop listing the authors. I imagine it was the backlash from Consequences.

[Ishagu]

My problem with this story is that it makes the Custodes look stupid.

 

These guys are trained to be diplomats as much as they are trained to be warriors. They are taught real history, real philosophy, and they know about the Imperium's original design from the age of the Emperor - reason, logic, common sense.

 

In this story we have a Custodes commander who lacks all of those qualities. An utter failure in his design, his duty and his purpose. He would never have achieved his rank or position.

 

The Custodes aren't slaved to the Inquisition, they don't follow orders blindly unless they come from the Emperor himself, and they don't see everything as black or white. The Custodes resented the Primarchs yet they aren't hostile to Guilliman because they recognise his personal achievements and record.

[Volt]

My problem with this story is that it makes the Custodes look stupid.

 

These guys are trained to be diplomats as much as they are trained to be warriors. They are taught real history, real philosophy, and they know about the Imperium's original design from the age of the Emperor - reason, logic, common sense.

 

In this story we have a Custodes commander who lacks all of those qualities. An utter failure in his design, his duty and his purpose. He would never have achieved his rank or position.

 

The Custodes aren't slaved to the Inquisition, they don't follow orders blindly unless they come from the Emperor himself, and they don't see everything as black or white. The Custodes resented the Primarchs yet they aren't hostile to Guilliman because they recognise his personal achievements and record.

It's amusing reading Valdor Birth of the Imperium, where the Custodes partially ferment a heretical plot against the Imperium itself simply to draw out and kill the remaining Thunder Warriors while revealing the new Astartes to the public - and testing the mettle of the Custodes themselves.

To then switch to reading Consequences, wherein a Custodes woefully escalates a situation into a naval shootout because he couldn't bear the thought of engaging in nuanced inquiry, or even trying to deescalate when he realized he screwed up.

[Ishagu]

Basically if this had been an Inquisitor Lord, or a zealous Chapter Master who escalated the conflict it would be OK.

 

For a Custodian to be so utterly bereft of sense, nuance and logic is unacceptable.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Ishagu

[b1soul]

@ Ishagu

 

"My problem with this story is that it makes the Custodes look stupid.

 

These guys are trained to be diplomats as much as they are trained to be warriors. They are taught real history, real philosophy, and they know about the Imperium's original design from the age of the Emperor - reason, logic, common sense."

 

Each is as much a philosopher/diplomat/intelligence operative as a superhuman warrior who swings a spear

 

Though I think the stupidity on display here is more fitting of a satirical Commissar

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

I just wanted to add my two cents here, this was a really interesting thread.  I enjoyed the story, and I thought that the way things went down really underlined the fascist nature of imperial thought that I would expect Custodes to embody probably above maybe any other faction in the Imperium.  The Shield-Captain's actions truly embody several of the tenets from Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism essay:

 

3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”

 

4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”

 

This to me reads as a very accurate abstract summary of what went down in that story.  The need some of us have for the Custodes to not be stupid, or rash, or in any way "just" in his actions is expecting too much out of the characters in this setting.  We all often like to say "there are no good guys in 40k" but when particularly egregious demonstrations of this principle are put in front of us, it can still be hard to really process, because like it or not we still end up identifying with the factions we like, even if we abstractly tell ourselves they are not the "good guys". 

[Lucerne]

The Custodes are abominations in their own right- clockwork slaves that are trusted precisely because they lack free will and the capacity for disagreement with the leader's ideas. And, yes, textbook fascists.

 

The Imperium is not a how-to guide or "the sympathetic protagonists". Its defenders are not, as a rule, good people. This entire chain of events in story should be a wakeup call for anyone that actually bought into the in-setting hype.

 

It's the "cruelest and bloody regime imaginable", run by lunatics who view this as a positive.

 

"In an age of insanity look to the madman to show the way."

Edited April 28, 2020 by Lucerne

[Frater Antodeniel]

I just wanted to add my two cents here, this was a really interesting thread.  I enjoyed the story, and I thought that the way things went down really underlined the fascist nature of imperial thought that I would expect Custodes to embody probably above maybe any other faction in the Imperium.  The Shield-Captain's actions truly embody several of the tenets from Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism essay:

 

3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”

 

4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”

 

This to me reads as a very accurate abstract summary of what went down in that story.  The need some of us have for the Custodes to not be stupid, or rash, or in any way "just" in his actions is expecting too much out of the characters in this setting.  We all often like to say "there are no good guys in 40k" but when particularly egregious demonstrations of this principle are put in front of us, it can still be hard to really process, because like it or not we still end up identifying with the factions we like, even if we abstractly tell ourselves they are not the "good guys". 

 

Interresting citation from a book that was curiously unknown to me. I think i can obtain some interresting knowledge from it. One more book to buy^^.

 

Returning on the 40K setting, and in the same spirit, when applying the logic of Totalitarism, (I prefer the word "totalitarism" because i believe "fascism" is to restrictive^^), i will add the "Notion of Group" as depicted notably in the "Third Wave Experiment" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave_(experiment) ).

 

Following this way of thought, in a totalitarian regim, such as the Imperium, the notion of group is a foundamental component of the society. In this regard, it is even more understandable that the Custodian did not think about "Individuals" but about the "Group". He do not see individuals, but the group they belongs to, as individuals are guilty by simply belonging to the same group.

 

Another, also important, thing to have in mind when speaking of the Imperium is the fact that, for the Imperium as a whole, the lose of even a chapter of the Adeptus Astartes can be considered trivial by the highest autorities. I may even develop with the possibility that in the Custodian mind, Astartes are just "mass product weapons", the lost of one "shipment" can be compensated in the end. (The Custodian return to Terra and inform the High Lords of the lost, and the High Lords will simply commission a new Chapter to be created.)

 

Finally, the Custodian are the perfect soldiers of the Emperor, since they embodies the citation "You don't need to understand the orders, nor you need to question them, you just have to execute the orders", which is one of the fundamental of all militarian corps or armies.

[Scribe]

I just wanted to add my two cents here, this was a really interesting thread.  I enjoyed the story, and I thought that the way things went down really underlined the fascist nature of imperial thought that I would expect Custodes to embody probably above maybe any other faction in the Imperium.  The Shield-Captain's actions truly embody several of the tenets from Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism essay:

 

3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”

 

4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”

 

This to me reads as a very accurate abstract summary of what went down in that story.  The need some of us have for the Custodes to not be stupid, or rash, or in any way "just" in his actions is expecting too much out of the characters in this setting.  We all often like to say "there are no good guys in 40k" but when particularly egregious demonstrations of this principle are put in front of us, it can still be hard to really process, because like it or not we still end up identifying with the factions we like, even if we abstractly tell ourselves they are not the "good guys". 

 

Beautiful.

 

I read a few posts here from folks saying 'well they wouldnt/shouldnt act this way, thats dumb' but...that kind of misses the point.

[Ishagu]

I don't think Custodes are the good guys. They are far too removed from their humanity to give them some sort of moral grade or label. For 10 thousand years they did nothing as humanity regressed into superstition and ignorance, they carry a lot of guilt in this regard - as has been showcased in multiple stories.

 

I expect them to be intelligent, nuanced and logical in their thinking, however.

 

They are not just another Astartes Zealot, they are not some Inquisitor with a chip on their shoulder and a grudge. Yet in this story they are exactly those things and nothing more.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Ishagu

[Phoebus]

These are all very valid points to make — about actual fascists (and even then it’s probably more relevant to the target audience of fascists, rather than leaders). That assumes that everyone in this setting subscribes to that ideology, however, or that the degree to which they do is the same... and both are demonstrably not true. As mentioned earlier, the Custodes are qualified as being more cerebral, rational, and pragmatic than their counterparts in other organizations of the Imperium.

[Scribe]

They are more cerebral and pragmatic.

 

They are also the voice and will of the Emperor.

 

'Disagreement is treason.'

 

That's it.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I don't think Custodes are the good guys. They are far too removed from their humanity to give them some sort of moral grade or label.

 

I expect them to be intelligent, nuanced and logical in their thinking.

 

You can be intelligent yet fanatical in your beliefs, nuanced on some aspects of life yet unyielding in others, and what seem logical to you can be irrational to the rest of the world.

 

In this regard, there is much to learn from history, both long past and recent.

 

In recent history, notably the first and second world wars, you had very intelligent peoples who decided irrational actions against all logic, and people who decided very logical actions in regards of their ideologies. Finally, peoples often awaits nuanced thoughts from "intelligent" and "rational" individuals, but always fails to understand that those two points depend from the observer point of view.

 

In this regard, the Custodians are indeed, Intelligent, Rational, and Nuanced beings...... as long as you consider that the choices they do serves the Emperor. So, for the case of the Short Story, to order the Primaris Astartes to surrender themselves to the Custodians was a nuanced choice, and since they refused, it was a rational choice to execute them. Also, the Custodian display Intelligence when he first offered the Primaris to surrender, and then by solving the problem he certainly foresaw and which inevitably happened.

[Volt]

I just wanted to add my two cents here, this was a really interesting thread.  I enjoyed the story, and I thought that the way things went down really underlined the fascist nature of imperial thought that I would expect Custodes to embody probably above maybe any other faction in the Imperium.  The Shield-Captain's actions truly embody several of the tenets from Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism essay:

 

3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”

 

4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”

 

This to me reads as a very accurate abstract summary of what went down in that story.  The need some of us have for the Custodes to not be stupid, or rash, or in any way "just" in his actions is expecting too much out of the characters in this setting.  We all often like to say "there are no good guys in 40k" but when particularly egregious demonstrations of this principle are put in front of us, it can still be hard to really process, because like it or not we still end up identifying with the factions we like, even if we abstractly tell ourselves they are not the "good guys". 

Except this clashes completely with the age of the civilization they're within (and often, lead), as braindead leadership precludes a civilization from lasting for ten thousand years. If you want to right a story about such idiocy, by all means do so, but it comes with the caveat that the respective nation state should be dead and buried in under a century. GW authors cannot simultaneously have their cake and eat it - wherein they portray fascist archetypes, but then not only refuse to acknowledge their consequences, but in a galling manner portray the civilization as somehow being successful in staying afloat.

 

 

 

I don't think Custodes are the good guys. They are far too removed from their humanity to give them some sort of moral grade or label.

 

I expect them to be intelligent, nuanced and logical in their thinking.

 

You can be intelligent yet fanatical in your beliefs, nuanced on some aspects of life yet unyielding in others, and what seem logical to you can be irrational to the rest of the world.

 

In this regard, there is much to learn from history, both long past and recent.

 

In recent history, notably the first and second world wars, you had very intelligent peoples who decided irrational actions against all logic, and people who decided very logical actions in regards of their ideologies. Finally, peoples often awaits nuanced thoughts from "intelligent" and "rational" individuals, but always fails to understand that those two points depend from the observer point of view.

 

In this regard, the Custodians are indeed, Intelligent, Rational, and Nuanced beings...... as long as you consider that the choices they do serves the Emperor. So, for the case of the Short Story, to order the Primaris Astartes to surrender themselves to the Custodians was a nuanced choice, and since they refused, it was a rational choice to execute them. Also, the Custodian display Intelligence when he first offered the Primaris to surrender, and then by solving the problem he certainly foresaw and which inevitably happened.

 

The answer is that the second world war did not involve very intelligent people on the Axis side, especially once you actually dive into the history of their campaigns and their actions as leaders. It was idiots, all the way down, which is why the Reich was destroyed in the first place. It's why the abomination only lasted 12 years, it was a very real case of being too dumb to survive. Secondly the Custodes didn't serve the Emperor, the situation is quite plainly, perfectly OK before the Shield Captain stepped in. He actively endangered the Emperor's life more than it already was, by spurring 180 marines to turn renegade and take a bunch of ships with them.

[Roomsky]

I'd argue that brand of stupidity is a necessary conceit of the setting.

 

A thousand warriors cannot take a world by facerushing the enemy, and an Imperium that relies on dreams as a means of communication cannot sustain an interstellar empire. 

 

Same goes for chainswords, battleships shaped like nautical craft (not even submarines), titans, vellum as paper, slaves loading munitions, etc. The Imperium would disintegrate under any leadership.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Roomsky

[Scribe]

Indeed, lets not also forget that the setting is satire. Everything about it is flawed, when looked at from an in universe lens, or as external observers from Word of God.

 

It doesnt make sense, it cannot make sense, and to attempt to reason with it, is...not possible.

 

EDIT: I'm reminded of that bit that came out about the Death Company vs Harliquin set. When the Captain executes the Death Jester, and the Jester is incredulious that he would do so, knowing that it would damn some planet/sector/universe whatever.

 

That is the point of 40K.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Scribe

[Medjugorje]

I am very happy that this story exist. They believin in a machine god and not in science any more. Why the hell they should be dealing not this way in war. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

I'd argue that brand of stupidity is a necessary conceit of the setting.

 

I'd entirely disagree with that. Good grimdark (as opposed to the grimderp displayed in this story) is imo grounded in inevitability, or impossible choices necessitating conflict more than stupidity.

 

Take Badab, generally regarded by pretty much everyone I've seen opine on the subject as an example of '40k done right'. The war starts because of an ultimately tragic dilemma. Huron, as head of the Maelstrom Warders, has an impossible job given his resources. He's seen the Warders stripped of their strength by the loss of the Charnel Guard, his attempts to forge lasting peace stymied by withdrawal of allied forces, and his pleas for reinforcement gone unheeded. So he makes the fateful choice, break with the laws of the incompetent (to his eyes)  High Lords in both the size of his Chapter and export tithes to fulfil his primary duty, safeguarding the Maelstrom Zone. But the thing is, the officials that ordered away/denied his reinforcements weren't being stupid or evil. Resources are always stretched in the Imperium and those deployments were needed more acutely elsewhere, from outside the Maelstrom Zone it probably looked like the remaining Warders were doing 'well enough', to not be an acute priority. But the result is Huron making a sensible, but damning, choice. It's tragic, it's grimdark, but it also makes sense. And we also see nuance, as the war escalates from schism, to war (arguably exacerbated by Huron's pride, but there's a cool air of uncertainty in the FW books) to full on 'the Astral Claws are beyond the pale' extermination. And even then, after the dust settles, there are trials. Not all the successionists are exterminated, only the Astral Claws. The Mantis Warriors, Lamenters and Executioners are all ultimately judged to (paraphrasing) have fought for the wrong cause for the right reasons, and so are worthy of seeking redemption. It's a brilliant piece of narrative, and at no point is it reliant on stupidity.

 

Alternatively, a far better story than Consequences is the preceding Burden of Brotherhood. Corian's decision to turn renegade ultimately boils down to 'Imperial Law necessitates I keep killing my brothers, this sucks, I can't do it any more, and there's no sign of the psychic manifestations stopping, so the Chapter's dead if this carries on anyway, might as well rebel'. Which as a decision makes sense for Corian, but at the same time we know why Imperial law is as strict as it is about latent, uncontrolled psykers and the risks they represent. Hence the grimdark, 2 understandable but irreconcilable stances forced into conflict. But the outcome isn't contingent on stupidity.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Leif Bearclaw

[Roomsky]

Oh don't mistake me, I don't think this story is good.

 

But grimdark is not a clearly defined term, nor is grimderp, though latter usually means "anything I find unreasonably sadistic."

 

I personally don't believe 40k should be the best made of an impossible situation, and I definitely don't believe it is, for the reasons I have outlined above and many more. I'm glad you can enjoy a different flavour of the setting as you've listed above, reason certainly has a place to exist in 40k, it just doesn't govern.

 

For me personally, nothing is "grimderp." The worse it gets, the more I think it embodies the setting. I'm not here for the conflicts of a reasoning galaxy, I'm here for Grey Knights killing civillians to consecrate their bolt shells.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

I'd argue that brand of stupidity is a necessary conceit of the setting.

 

I'd entirely disagree with that. Good grimdark (as opposed to the grimderp displayed in this story) is imo grounded in inevitability, or impossible choices necessitating conflict more than stupidity.

 

Take Badab, generally regarded by pretty much everyone I've seen opine on the subject as an example of '40k done right'. The war starts because of an ultimately tragic dilemma. Huron, as head of the Maelstrom Warders, has an impossible job given his resources. He's seen the Warders stripped of their strength by the loss of the Charnel Guard, his attempts to forge lasting peace stymied by withdrawal of allied forces, and his pleas for reinforcement gone unheeded. So he makes the fateful choice, break with the laws of the incompetent (to his eyes) High Lords in both the size of his Chapter and export tithes to fulfil his primary duty, safeguarding the Maelstrom Zone. But the thing is, the officials that ordered away/denied his reinforcements weren't being stupid or evil. Resources are always stretched in the Imperium and those deployments were needed more acutely elsewhere, from outside the Maelstrom Zone it probably looked like the remaining Warders were doing 'well enough', to not be an acute priority. But the result is Huron making a sensible, but damning, choice. It's tragic, it's grimdark, but it also makes sense. And we also see nuance, as the war escalates from schism, to war (arguably exacerbated by Huron's pride, but there's a cool air of uncertainty in the FW books) to full on 'the Astral Claws are beyond the pale' extermination. And even then, after the dust settles, there are trials. Not all the successionists are exterminated, only the Astral Claws. The Mantis Warriors, Lamenters and Executioners are all ultimately judged to (paraphrasing) have fought for the wrong cause for the right reasons, and so are worthy of seeking redemption. It's a brilliant piece of narrative, and at no point is it reliant on stupidity.

 

Alternatively, a far better story than Consequences is the preceding Burden of Brotherhood. Corian's decision to turn renegade ultimately boils down to 'Imperial Law necessitates I keep killing my brothers, this sucks, I can't do it any more, and there's no sign of the psychic manifestations stopping, so the Chapter's dead if this carries on anyway, might as well rebel'. Which as a decision makes sense for Corian, but at the same time we know why Imperial law is as strict as it is about latent, uncontrolled psykers and the risks they represent. Hence the grimdark, 2 understandable but irreconcilable stances forced into conflict. But the outcome contingent on stupidity.

Chaos Psykers are very OP so the law makes sense

 

If a Custodes gives an order to anyone (including Grey Knights and Inquisition) it is expected to be done immediately. If a Custode ordered an Inquisitor Apprentice to murder his/her superiors it will be done so without any hesitation

 

Wasting a Custode's time should be punishable by death. Just like how Marines save the Guard's asses time and time again the Custodes save the Marines whenver they are being overwhelmed by the Forces of Chaos

 

Maybe the Custodes should have said "I don't have time for this. Surrender at once immediately for interrogation" then if the Primaris object kill them as it is now justifiable, not that the Custodes needed it to be

 

I thought Custodes had SuperCharisma and SuperIntimidation traits that eclipse the Space Marines' own charisma that they can project on normal humans? Shouldn't the Primaris have been compelled/enthralled by the Custode's voice/tone to immediately obey?