Are you still having fun?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I already mix various bits and such for conversion, the clam pack was more an idea how GW to could easily provide the option if they insist on there being a model for every options.

[Jings]

Current state of Chaos has killed 40K for me for the time being. Haven't played in a year. Honestly I can't get over our Marines being virtually paper thanks to a combination of AP and envy for thr Primaris statline (which also applies to my Dark Angels).

 

Hopefully 9E is when GW pulls the trigger on all Astartes units having the Primaris statline and I won't feel like I'm wasting my time putting Chaos Marines on the table instead of cultists to fill out battalions.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Jings

[Lucerne]

Joke's on GW: My money has gone to everyone but them to get conversion bits, properly sized Marine legs, models for cultists...

 

Hell, GW has managed to convince me that until things change, the only things I need from their kits are enough of a single backpack design to stick on a few squads of CSM, a few of the better CSM heads, and maybe the CSM bolter arms (without the bolters). The Codex rules, the other CSM releases even maybe including the undersized and monoposed Black Legion terminators mislabelled as generic chaos terminators, and even most of the generic black legion "CSM" kit just...kinda lack utility for me and Alpha Legion.

 

One thing's for sure: as things stand, Codex Raven Guard is still a better AL codex than the CSM one and I don't see that changing any time soon.

 

It's a pity because the core models are solid- for BL and WB, if too close to monopose and undersized. Daemon fans get things they like for models. But if you like the CSM part of CSM, is the chaincannon, the dark apostle, and a tonally confused "character hunter" without mobility options meant to appeal? Why don't CSM have rules for things like Heresy Terminators when the models are right there? Why was GW's response to anemic CSM to nerf the consolation prize unit that was cultists?

 

I'd honestly consider the CSM codex somewhere behind Codex: GSC (which despite lacking CSM at least offers something halfway adequate for 'operatives' and an organized uprising...) or at the least Raven Guard as a representation of Alpha Legion.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Lucerne

[Panzer]

Current state of Chaos has killed 40K for me for the time being. Haven't played in a year. Honestly I can't get over our Marines being virtually paper thanks to a combination of AP and envy for thr Primaris statline (which also applies to my Dark Angels).

 

Hopefully 9E is when GW pulls the trigger on all Astartes units having the Primaris statline and I won't feel like I'm wasting my time putting Chaos Marines on the table instead of cultists to fill out battalions.

 

Not to additionally rain on the parade, but I don't think that's very likely to happen. They are different fluff wise so GW will want to keep them different on the table as well and I don't see such a huge retcon as Primaris just being regular Marines coming anytime soon (or ever for that matter).

 

That being said, I play Primaris with my Blood Angels because they indeed feel like proper Marines for once ... but don't make the mistake thinking that they don't just die like flies either. The ranged damage output of 40k is just through the roof and an additional wound doesn't change much. I don't even blame this editions AP system because in 7th everyone just took Grav and Plasma or high strenght high volume weapons like Autocannons which just wrecked Marines just the same.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Panzer

[Bulwyf]

This is something that has bugged me since they gave it to loyalist SM. Why don't CSM have the -1 AP etc turn 1 rules that loyalist SM have? I know this is because of "codex astartes" but even non compliant loyalist chapters get it.

 

So...why doesn't CSM have this? CSM is one of the weakest armies in the game currently. CSM don't have that, they don't have chainswords and bolters despite veterans of a 10k + year long war and somehow don't even have ATSKNF despite still being Astartes.

 

I realize I'm not voicing a frustration that's unique but it really boggles my mind that GW won't give this to CSM and DG/TS. 

[Jings]

 

 

Current state of Chaos has killed 40K for me for the time being. Haven't played in a year. Honestly I can't get over our Marines being virtually paper thanks to a combination of AP and envy for thr Primaris statline (which also applies to my Dark Angels).

 

Hopefully 9E is when GW pulls the trigger on all Astartes units having the Primaris statline and I won't feel like I'm wasting my time putting Chaos Marines on the table instead of cultists to fill out battalions.

Not to additionally rain on the parade, but I don't think that's very likely to happen. They are different fluff wise so GW will want to keep them different on the table as well and I don't see such a huge retcon as Primaris just being regular Marines coming anytime soon (or ever for that matter).

 

That being said, I play Primaris with my Blood Angels because they indeed feel like proper Marines for once ... but don't make the mistake thinking that they don't just die like flies either. The ranged damage output of 40k is just through the roof and an additional wound doesn't change much. I don't even blame this editions AP system because in 7th everyone just took Grav and Plasma or high strenght high volume weapons like Autocannons which just wrecked Marines just the same.

I play Primaris too. Its not as if the extra wound and attack are to help against the bigger threats that can (and should) mop the floor with them. It's more so they stand a better chance of surviving getting gunned down by 4 point chaff. Autocannons and plasma doing what they do is a-okay with me, though an AP soak mechanic wouldn't go amiss.

 

Tbh I'm hoping they start downplaying the "improvements" of Primaris Marines. I really can't understate how much I hate their introduction and the scale discrepencies they've introduced. But if GW don't start addressing the mechanical problems with the Astartes v Primaris ranges I'm going to drop 40K entirely. ADB went on a rant on Twitter recently, with the long and short being "Primaris are just Astartes now" and if that's the take of one of the top BL authors then I assume it's the take of the major lore writers, and will start being applied to the game mechanics. If not, well, I'll need to dig out that CSM codex modification and make a Battlescribe file.

[Panzer]

 

 

Current state of Chaos has killed 40K for me for the time being. Haven't played in a year. Honestly I can't get over our Marines being virtually paper thanks to a combination of AP and envy for thr Primaris statline (which also applies to my Dark Angels).

 

Hopefully 9E is when GW pulls the trigger on all Astartes units having the Primaris statline and I won't feel like I'm wasting my time putting Chaos Marines on the table instead of cultists to fill out battalions.

Not to additionally rain on the parade, but I don't think that's very likely to happen. They are different fluff wise so GW will want to keep them different on the table as well and I don't see such a huge retcon as Primaris just being regular Marines coming anytime soon (or ever for that matter).

 

That being said, I play Primaris with my Blood Angels because they indeed feel like proper Marines for once ... but don't make the mistake thinking that they don't just die like flies either. The ranged damage output of 40k is just through the roof and an additional wound doesn't change much. I don't even blame this editions AP system because in 7th everyone just took Grav and Plasma or high strenght high volume weapons like Autocannons which just wrecked Marines just the same.

I play Primaris too. Its not as if the extra wound and attack are to help against the bigger threats that can (and should) mop the floor with them. It's more so they stand a better chance of surviving getting gunned down by 4 point chaff. Autocannons and plasma doing what they do is a-okay with me, though an AP soak mechanic wouldn't go amiss.

 

Tbh I'm hoping they start downplaying the "improvements" of Primaris Marines. I really can't understate how much I hate their introduction and the scale discrepencies they've introduced. But if GW don't start addressing the mechanical problems with the Astartes v Primaris ranges I'm going to drop 40K entirely. ADB went on a rant on Twitter recently, with the long and short being "Primaris are just Astartes now" and if that's the take of one of the top BL authors then I assume it's the take of the major lore writers, and will start being applied to the game mechanics. If not, well, I'll need to dig out that CSM codex modification and make a Battlescribe file.

 

 

The problem is that nobody takes 4p chaff to gun down anything. They are there for screening, holding objectives and filling Battalions. The rest of the list is always filled to the brim with stuff that's there to kill Marines&Co. So whether the 4p chaff can kill your Marines or the 80% of what else is in the opponent's list makes realistically no difference. Your Marines are dead either way once the enemy can shoot at them.

 

You can hope for whatever you want but I fear if you stick with that particular one you are only going to get disappointed in the long run. And if I recall correctly what ADB's tone in his tweet was more like that Primaris aren't acting or treated differently. They get trained like Marines, think like Marines, act like Marines, are Marines. They have all their characteristics and flaws. Just that they are bigger, stronger and use new fancy gear. And the reason why he made that tweet was because there are lots people who never read any of the Primaris lore apart from "Guilliman's idea" and "made by Cawl in secret" so they attribute all kinds of stupid things to them like them all being like Ultramarines or having some sort of loyalty to Cawl and whatnot.

Primaris are here to stay and at some point in the future will replace regular Marines for loyalists, however GW simply puts too much effort into emphasizing them being a separate thing and into giving loyal Marines and traitor Marines two distinct identities for the hope of them going back on that being anywhere realistic.

[Panzer]

This is something that has bugged me since they gave it to loyalist SM. Why don't CSM have the -1 AP etc turn 1 rules that loyalist SM have? I know this is because of "codex astartes" but even non compliant loyalist chapters get it.

 

So...why doesn't CSM have this? CSM is one of the weakest armies in the game currently. CSM don't have that, they don't have chainswords and bolters despite veterans of a 10k + year long war and somehow don't even have ATSKNF despite still being Astartes.

 

I realize I'm not voicing a frustration that's unique but it really boggles my mind that GW won't give this to CSM and DG/TS. 

 

A victim of different teams working on different products without much communication between them in GW. The CSM team was rather uninspired and thought a small update is enough and the loyalist team thought it's a great idea to go all out. Stupid stuff like that just keeps happening with GW unfortunately.

About the Codex compliant thing, they keep going back and forth with it. At first they told us BA&Co don't get it because they aren't Codex compliant so we kept waiting and being jealous on what vanilla Marines got (while we already got all the other generic things like Shock Assault etc via Errata for those armies), thinking we would get something different but hopefully as cool. Just for them then telling us that at the core BA&Co are still mostly Codex compliant so it makes sense to give it to them too. 

[Jings]

 

 

 

Current state of Chaos has killed 40K for me for the time being. Haven't played in a year. Honestly I can't get over our Marines being virtually paper thanks to a combination of AP and envy for thr Primaris statline (which also applies to my Dark Angels).

 

Hopefully 9E is when GW pulls the trigger on all Astartes units having the Primaris statline and I won't feel like I'm wasting my time putting Chaos Marines on the table instead of cultists to fill out battalions.

Not to additionally rain on the parade, but I don't think that's very likely to happen. They are different fluff wise so GW will want to keep them different on the table as well and I don't see such a huge retcon as Primaris just being regular Marines coming anytime soon (or ever for that matter).

 

That being said, I play Primaris with my Blood Angels because they indeed feel like proper Marines for once ... but don't make the mistake thinking that they don't just die like flies either. The ranged damage output of 40k is just through the roof and an additional wound doesn't change much. I don't even blame this editions AP system because in 7th everyone just took Grav and Plasma or high strenght high volume weapons like Autocannons which just wrecked Marines just the same.

I play Primaris too. Its not as if the extra wound and attack are to help against the bigger threats that can (and should) mop the floor with them. It's more so they stand a better chance of surviving getting gunned down by 4 point chaff. Autocannons and plasma doing what they do is a-okay with me, though an AP soak mechanic wouldn't go amiss.

 

Tbh I'm hoping they start downplaying the "improvements" of Primaris Marines. I really can't understate how much I hate their introduction and the scale discrepencies they've introduced. But if GW don't start addressing the mechanical problems with the Astartes v Primaris ranges I'm going to drop 40K entirely. ADB went on a rant on Twitter recently, with the long and short being "Primaris are just Astartes now" and if that's the take of one of the top BL authors then I assume it's the take of the major lore writers, and will start being applied to the game mechanics. If not, well, I'll need to dig out that CSM codex modification and make a Battlescribe file.

 

 

The problem is that nobody takes 4p chaff to gun down anything. They are there for screening, holding objectives and filling Battalions. The rest of the list is always filled to the brim with stuff that's there to kill Marines&Co. So whether the 4p chaff can kill your Marines or the 80% of what else is in the opponent's list makes realistically no difference. Your Marines are dead either way once the enemy can shoot at them.

 

You can hope for whatever you want but I fear if you stick with that particular one you are only going to get disappointed in the long run. And if I recall correctly what ADB's tone in his tweet was more like that Primaris aren't acting or treated differently. They get trained like Marines, think like Marines, act like Marines, are Marines. They have all their characteristics and flaws. Just that they are bigger, stronger and use new fancy gear. And the reason why he made that tweet was because there are lots people who never read any of the Primaris lore apart from "Guilliman's idea" and "made by Cawl in secret" so they attribute all kinds of stupid things to them like them all being like Ultramarines or having some sort of loyalty to Cawl and whatnot.

Primaris are here to stay and at some point in the future will replace regular Marines for loyalists, however GW simply puts too much effort into emphasizing them being a separate thing and into giving loyal Marines and traitor Marines two distinct identities for the hope of them going back on that being anywhere realistic.

 

 

I poorly worded my point regarding chaff so I'll rephrase it. Point for point, cheap infantry models (your cultists, guardsmen et al) completely outclass non-Primaris MEQs on every level. In an army called Chaos Space Marines, you actively hamper your chance at winning the game by taking Chaos Space Marines and, to me at least, that screams of poor design. My read on the situation is less that non-Primaris are being hampered for lore and gameplay flavour, but rather as part of this active phasing out of oldschool marines in favour of their Primaris successors - with Chaos Space Marine factions of all flavours (and Loyalist non-Primaris such as Death Watch and particularly the Grey Knights) being the victims of consistency for the sake of marketing. 

 

The lore, to me, does not justify the mechanical differences between the two types of Marine and is a feeble excuse in order to justify the discrepancies between those statlines. The game is clearly suffering mechanically for the sake of marketing. From a lore standpoint, if these organs increase their size, strength and survivability to a degree that translates to a full +1W and A, then what are the other organs doing if they only effectively increase their Strength and Toughness by +1 compared to baseline humans? Are they chopped liver? Or is it, as I suspect, Games Workshop's rules department arbitrarily powering up the new range in order to shift models?

 

As I've said, I play Chaos Space Marines and I want to use Chaos Space Marines. Primaris Marines are how I want them to play, and the lore does not justify the difference in power level between what are, essentially, the same units with different coats of paint. I'm not exactly holding my breathe that this will ever be sorted, but if it isn't then unless a custom ruleset is made and accepted by the community at large, I'm going to quit. Hell, I basically haven't played in a year because of these issues. It breaks my heart that CSM now stands for Cultists, (deep) Strike and Mechs if you want to stand a chance of winning. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Jings

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

Current state of Chaos has killed 40K for me for the time being. Haven't played in a year. Honestly I can't get over our Marines being virtually paper thanks to a combination of AP and envy for thr Primaris statline (which also applies to my Dark Angels).

 

Hopefully 9E is when GW pulls the trigger on all Astartes units having the Primaris statline and I won't feel like I'm wasting my time putting Chaos Marines on the table instead of cultists to fill out battalions.

Not to additionally rain on the parade, but I don't think that's very likely to happen. They are different fluff wise so GW will want to keep them different on the table as well and I don't see such a huge retcon as Primaris just being regular Marines coming anytime soon (or ever for that matter).

 

That being said, I play Primaris with my Blood Angels because they indeed feel like proper Marines for once ... but don't make the mistake thinking that they don't just die like flies either. The ranged damage output of 40k is just through the roof and an additional wound doesn't change much. I don't even blame this editions AP system because in 7th everyone just took Grav and Plasma or high strenght high volume weapons like Autocannons which just wrecked Marines just the same.

I play Primaris too. Its not as if the extra wound and attack are to help against the bigger threats that can (and should) mop the floor with them. It's more so they stand a better chance of surviving getting gunned down by 4 point chaff. Autocannons and plasma doing what they do is a-okay with me, though an AP soak mechanic wouldn't go amiss.

 

Tbh I'm hoping they start downplaying the "improvements" of Primaris Marines. I really can't understate how much I hate their introduction and the scale discrepencies they've introduced. But if GW don't start addressing the mechanical problems with the Astartes v Primaris ranges I'm going to drop 40K entirely. ADB went on a rant on Twitter recently, with the long and short being "Primaris are just Astartes now" and if that's the take of one of the top BL authors then I assume it's the take of the major lore writers, and will start being applied to the game mechanics. If not, well, I'll need to dig out that CSM codex modification and make a Battlescribe file.

 

 

The problem is that nobody takes 4p chaff to gun down anything. They are there for screening, holding objectives and filling Battalions. The rest of the list is always filled to the brim with stuff that's there to kill Marines&Co. So whether the 4p chaff can kill your Marines or the 80% of what else is in the opponent's list makes realistically no difference. Your Marines are dead either way once the enemy can shoot at them.

 

You can hope for whatever you want but I fear if you stick with that particular one you are only going to get disappointed in the long run. And if I recall correctly what ADB's tone in his tweet was more like that Primaris aren't acting or treated differently. They get trained like Marines, think like Marines, act like Marines, are Marines. They have all their characteristics and flaws. Just that they are bigger, stronger and use new fancy gear. And the reason why he made that tweet was because there are lots people who never read any of the Primaris lore apart from "Guilliman's idea" and "made by Cawl in secret" so they attribute all kinds of stupid things to them like them all being like Ultramarines or having some sort of loyalty to Cawl and whatnot.

Primaris are here to stay and at some point in the future will replace regular Marines for loyalists, however GW simply puts too much effort into emphasizing them being a separate thing and into giving loyal Marines and traitor Marines two distinct identities for the hope of them going back on that being anywhere realistic.

 

 

I poorly worded my point regarding chaff so I'll rephrase it. Point for point, cheap infantry models (your cultists, guardsmen et al) completely outclass non-Primaris MEQs on every level. In an army called Chaos Space Marines, you actively hamper your chance at winning the game by taking Chaos Space Marines and, to me at least, that screams of poor design. My read on the situation is less that non-Primaris are being hampered for lore and gameplay flavour, but rather as part of this active phasing out of oldschool marines in favour of their Primaris successors - with Chaos Space Marine factions of all flavours (and Loyalist non-Primaris such as Death Watch and particularly the Grey Knights) being the victims of consistency for the sake of marketing. 

 

The lore, to me, does not justify the mechanical differences between the two types of Marine and is a feeble excuse in order to justify the discrepancies between those statlines. The game is clearly suffering mechanically for the sake of marketing. From a lore standpoint, if these organs increase their size, strength and survivability to a degree that translates to a full +1W and A, then what are the other organs doing if they only effectively increase their Strength and Toughness by +1 compared to baseline humans? Are they chopped liver? Or is it, as I suspect, Games Workshop's rules department arbitrarily powering up the new range in order to shift models?

 

As I've said, I play Chaos Space Marines and I want to use Chaos Space Marines. Primaris Marines are how I want them to play, and the lore does not justify the difference in power level between what are, essentially, the same units with different coats of paint. I'm not exactly holding my breathe that this will ever be sorted, but if it isn't then unless a custom ruleset is made and accepted by the community at large, I'm going to quit. Hell, I basically haven't played in a year because of these issues. It breaks my heart that CSM now stands for Cultists, (deep) Strike and Mechs if you want to stand a chance of winning. 

 

 

I understand you, but I'm just telling you to not get your hopes up for anything like that to happen. It's clearly not what GW wants.

[Jings]

 

I understand you, but I'm just telling you to not get your hopes up for anything like that to happen. It's clearly not what GW wants.

 

Nah I know my dude. I'm not trying to argue or anything, just having a vent.  

Edited May 17, 2020 by Jings

[dice4thedicegod]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Current state of Chaos has killed 40K for me for the time being. Haven't played in a year. Honestly I can't get over our Marines being virtually paper thanks to a combination of AP and envy for thr Primaris statline (which also applies to my Dark Angels).

 

Hopefully 9E is when GW pulls the trigger on all Astartes units having the Primaris statline and I won't feel like I'm wasting my time putting Chaos Marines on the table instead of cultists to fill out battalions.

Not to additionally rain on the parade, but I don't think that's very likely to happen. They are different fluff wise so GW will want to keep them different on the table as well and I don't see such a huge retcon as Primaris just being regular Marines coming anytime soon (or ever for that matter).

 

That being said, I play Primaris with my Blood Angels because they indeed feel like proper Marines for once ... but don't make the mistake thinking that they don't just die like flies either. The ranged damage output of 40k is just through the roof and an additional wound doesn't change much. I don't even blame this editions AP system because in 7th everyone just took Grav and Plasma or high strenght high volume weapons like Autocannons which just wrecked Marines just the same.

I play Primaris too. Its not as if the extra wound and attack are to help against the bigger threats that can (and should) mop the floor with them. It's more so they stand a better chance of surviving getting gunned down by 4 point chaff. Autocannons and plasma doing what they do is a-okay with me, though an AP soak mechanic wouldn't go amiss.

 

Tbh I'm hoping they start downplaying the "improvements" of Primaris Marines. I really can't understate how much I hate their introduction and the scale discrepencies they've introduced. But if GW don't start addressing the mechanical problems with the Astartes v Primaris ranges I'm going to drop 40K entirely. ADB went on a rant on Twitter recently, with the long and short being "Primaris are just Astartes now" and if that's the take of one of the top BL authors then I assume it's the take of the major lore writers, and will start being applied to the game mechanics. If not, well, I'll need to dig out that CSM codex modification and make a Battlescribe file.

The problem is that nobody takes 4p chaff to gun down anything. They are there for screening, holding objectives and filling Battalions. The rest of the list is always filled to the brim with stuff that's there to kill Marines&Co. So whether the 4p chaff can kill your Marines or the 80% of what else is in the opponent's list makes realistically no difference. Your Marines are dead either way once the enemy can shoot at them.

 

You can hope for whatever you want but I fear if you stick with that particular one you are only going to get disappointed in the long run. And if I recall correctly what ADB's tone in his tweet was more like that Primaris aren't acting or treated differently. They get trained like Marines, think like Marines, act like Marines, are Marines. They have all their characteristics and flaws. Just that they are bigger, stronger and use new fancy gear. And the reason why he made that tweet was because there are lots people who never read any of the Primaris lore apart from "Guilliman's idea" and "made by Cawl in secret" so they attribute all kinds of stupid things to them like them all being like Ultramarines or having some sort of loyalty to Cawl and whatnot.

Primaris are here to stay and at some point in the future will replace regular Marines for loyalists, however GW simply puts too much effort into emphasizing them being a separate thing and into giving loyal Marines and traitor Marines two distinct identities for the hope of them going back on that being anywhere realistic.

I poorly worded my point regarding chaff so I'll rephrase it. Point for point, cheap infantry models (your cultists, guardsmen et al) completely outclass non-Primaris MEQs on every level. In an army called Chaos Space Marines, you actively hamper your chance at winning the game by taking Chaos Space Marines and, to me at least, that screams of poor design. My read on the situation is less that non-Primaris are being hampered for lore and gameplay flavour, but rather as part of this active phasing out of oldschool marines in favour of their Primaris successors - with Chaos Space Marine factions of all flavours (and Loyalist non-Primaris such as Death Watch and particularly the Grey Knights) being the victims of consistency for the sake of marketing.

 

The lore, to me, does not justify the mechanical differences between the two types of Marine and is a feeble excuse in order to justify the discrepancies between those statlines. The game is clearly suffering mechanically for the sake of marketing. From a lore standpoint, if these organs increase their size, strength and survivability to a degree that translates to a full +1W and A, then what are the other organs doing if they only effectively increase their Strength and Toughness by +1 compared to baseline humans? Are they chopped liver? Or is it, as I suspect, Games Workshop's rules department arbitrarily powering up the new range in order to shift models?

 

As I've said, I play Chaos Space Marines and I want to use Chaos Space Marines. Primaris Marines are how I want them to play, and the lore does not justify the difference in power level between what are, essentially, the same units with different coats of paint. I'm not exactly holding my breathe that this will ever be sorted, but if it isn't then unless a custom ruleset is made and accepted by the community at large, I'm going to quit. Hell, I basically haven't played in a year because of these issues. It breaks my heart that CSM now stands for Cultists, (deep) Strike and Mechs if you want to stand a chance of winning.

GW seem to visualize the armies differently.

 

Loyalist marines are an army, with rank and file providing significant amount of killing power.

 

Chaos marines are a typical Hollywood bad guy force: some big bads and a lot of goons.

 

If you want to play in the loyalist style, maybe just play ‘counts as’? (Whether use ultramarines rules for black legion, or blood angels for world eaters, etc)

[Jings]

 

GW seem to visualize the armies differently.

 

Loyalist marines are an army, with rank and file providing significant amount of killing power.

 

Chaos marines are a typical Hollywood bad guy force: some big bads and a lot of goons.

 

If you want to play in the loyalist style, maybe just play ‘counts as’? (Whether use ultramarines rules for black legion, or blood angels for world eaters, etc)

 

 

I'd be inclined to agree with that but for the fact that regular Space Marines have the exact same issues. I wish it was a matter of me just misinterpreting their vision of the army. I just don't think that's what's happening. 

 

The big thing that stops me from just running them as Loyalists (and I have thought about it) is that I want all my Chaos toys too. In my mind, my CSM (Iron Warriors) are a force that have been fighting the Long War for the past ten millenia. I want my Obliterators and Daemon Princes, I want my Defilers and Maulerfiends. I want my Chaos squads to be kitted out with their personal wargear. I can't represent all that with Loyalists sadly. 

 

I actually wrote up a pretty big list of +1 Attack/Wound mods and general rules for Chaos Marines at one point last year (think I posted it in the homebrew forum) but it didn't get much attention. I've been annoyed about this since the start of 8th tbh, but I've been really feeling it since the Space Marine 2.0 codex dropped. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Jings

[dice4thedicegod]

Yeah, it definitely doesn’t feel like CSM are 10,000 year veterans who look down on loyalists as thin bloods!

 

I feel ya, but it might be difficult to balance the game if CSM had the loyalist bonuses and access to daemons / daemon engines.

[Jings]

I can't see how Chaos Marines having access to their toys with the buffed statline would be any more exploitable than Marines getting theirs, seeing as Loyalists already have access to a lot more units and the entire roster of Imperium factions they can just slot in. I really firmly believe it's entirely the marketing drones dictating this to the rules writers from on high. It's not like we'd be getting Doctrines or anything (though I wouldn't kick AP-1 Bolters and Chainswords out of bed for eating biscuits). 

 

Tbh what I expect would happen if those changes were implemented is that the actual Chaos Marine units (CSM, Raptors, Havoks, Chosen etc.) would actually see play outside of niche strategies. I've probably derailed the thread enough with my whinging for now though :P

Edited May 17, 2020 by Jings

[Plague _Lord]

Since the plague hit I've been having great fun with my chaos - painted a bunch up and done some finre converting work.

I was having fun even before the plague with my Deathguard and even had a 50% winrate at torunaments I attended, which for me it's fine. If I want to win at a game I play counter strike on my laptop. I play 40k for the feels, the story and the fun banter with my opponent.

 

Sure I was pissed at times when my astra militarum opponent actually beat my deathguard army in combat, swarming my units in bodies and I could do nothing about it (I did forget about DttFE :P ) so sure, sometimes the army doesn't work as intended but the feels I get when I play them makes me remember the tonnes of fun I had with 40k as a kid and I think that's why we play :)

 

What I can't wait to get on the table after the plague is my fluffy word bearers project - I've created a list with 500pts left for summoning daemons, of which I have a solid ammount, so every game will be different :)

[Bulwyf]

9th edition is now here and Chaos has been removed as the "big bad" for Necrons. I just want all Chaos armies to be at least more competitive in 9th than we were in 8th. 

[WarriorFish]

I think a release and focus on some xenos is a bit of a stretch to say Chaos aren't the main "big bad". Even if that was the case - do you mind that much if Necrons become the new whipping boys? Could be worse, could be on the same side yet still be the whipping boys - Guard and Sisters say hello

 

The arrival of 9th in the near future is something to be focusing on, GW lays claim to listening to feedback - let's see how much. I want to see combat get a big shot in the arm as one of the main deficiencies with 8th and one very pertinent to CSM. There's some redress coming for the elite/horde divide with Blast weapons, we'll need to wait and see if this is more fleshed out with more.

 

This should be the tip of the iceberg for 9th's changes it should be quite a different experience, I'm interested in finding out how much so hopefully soon.

[Lucerne]

Yeah, at this point it's safe to say Chaos is being screwed over for the long term. Loyalists stole basically everything worth a damn from the Marine roster, including now on top of the Apostle fiasco, a Master of Executions knockoff that will inevitably have better rules in its Primaris bootleg form and may actually work as intended. New bike models that CSM can't use. Full on shields and power swords. CQC units that will wipe the floor with Chaos, while GW has always used the excuse of "it's a CQC army" to strip away ranged options from Chaos.

 

Chaos is being screwed over in rules, options, and in lore with the absurdity of Primaris consistently being fluffed up and given every advantage with no narrative consequences- mechanically and lorewise, CSM are now the inferior "model" with no real advantages for it. The Primaris are better representations of Legions than anything GW deigns to actually focus on for CSM. LSM have more Legion relic wargear than CSM rules do- the volkite pistol was a particularly keen insult.

 

Heads, Imperials win. Tails, Chaos loses. The fluff only "matters" when it comes to screwing over Chaos players, never when it'd mean Chaos gets something useful.

 

If the goal isn't to drive off Chaos fans, they're certainly doing an incredible job of it accidentally. We're back in the dark days of "Codex: Underequipped Red Corsair Cannon Fodder" from 4e, only worse. If your favored subfaction of CSM can't be proxied as a loyalist mirror match via counts-as, my condolences.

 

GW obviously doesn't think of CSM as anything but "power armoured latd renegades that should have mechnically worse rules and lore emphasizing that".

 

I honestly can't think of any reason to ever use CSM rules for daemon-lite Legions or renegade concepts.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Lucerne

[Squike]

When I saw the assault intercessors, my first thought was “there goes our tiny CC advantage” even regular intercessors hit hard enough against things like bezerkers, and I bet they will get some type of primaris super chainsword that’s AP-1 naturally too....

[Bulwyf]

I think a release and focus on some xenos is a bit of a stretch to say Chaos aren't the main "big bad". Even if that was the case - do you mind that much if Necrons become the new whipping boys? Could be worse, could be on the same side yet still be the whipping boys - Guard and Sisters say hello

 

The arrival of 9th in the near future is something to be focusing on, GW lays claim to listening to feedback - let's see how much. I want to see combat get a big shot in the arm as one of the main deficiencies with 8th and one very pertinent to CSM. There's some redress coming for the elite/horde divide with Blast weapons, we'll need to wait and see if this is more fleshed out with more.

 

This should be the tip of the iceberg for 9th's changes it should be quite a different experience, I'm interested in finding out how much so hopefully soon.

 

The difference between the fluff and the table top is stark and vastly different. 8th edition definitely had Chaos as the "big bad" that broke the galaxy in half and had every other faction reacting to the consequences as a result. So far in 9th all we have seen are Necrons and the clear implication is the starter box for 9th will be Necrons as the bad guys.

 

I have no problems with that or even taking the focus away from Chaos to another "big bad" for an edition. My main issue for many, many years now is that Chaos is depicted as the supreme terror of the galaxy, a moral and real threat to EVERY faction. That should make them absolutely terrifying to face on the table. The reality is exactly the opposite. Chaos has routinely been the worst or one of the worst tabletop armies for many years now. 

 

This needs to change. Chaos should be an "oh &*%^" moment from the opposing player. For many years now it has been a chuckle at best from your opponent. Big bads need not apply if this is the reality in the actual game.

[Lucerne]

GW needs to pick a gimmick for Chaos, and give it fluffy and effective models that fit it. Hell, even if they are all semi-daemonic legions and less warp'y renegades get squatted outright rather than by neglect, that would at least be closure.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Lucerne

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yeah, at this point it's safe to say Chaos is being screwed over for the long term. Loyalists stole basically everything worth a damn from the Marine roster, including now on top of the Apostle fiasco, a Master of Executions knockoff that will inevitably have better rules in its Primaris bootleg form and may actually work as intended. New bike models that CSM can't use. Full on shields and power swords. CQC units that will wipe the floor with Chaos, while GW has always used the excuse of "it's a CQC army" to strip away ranged options from Chaos.

 

Chaos is being screwed over in rules, options, and in lore with the absurdity of Primaris consistently being fluffed up and given every advantage with no narrative consequences- mechanically and lorewise, CSM are now the inferior "model" with no real advantages for it. The Primaris are better representations of Legions than anything GW deigns to actually focus on for CSM. LSM have more Legion relic wargear than CSM rules do- the volkite pistol was a particularly keen insult.

 

Heads, Imperials win. Tails, Chaos loses. The fluff only "matters" when it comes to screwing over Chaos players, never when it'd mean Chaos gets something useful.

 

If the goal isn't to drive off Chaos fans, they're certainly doing an incredible job of it accidentally. We're back in the dark days of "Codex: Underequipped Red Corsair Cannon Fodder" from 4e, only worse. If your favored subfaction of CSM can't be proxied as a loyalist mirror match via counts-as, my condolences.

 

GW obviously doesn't think of CSM as anything but "power armoured latd renegades that should have mechnically worse rules and lore emphasizing that".

 

I honestly can't think of any reason to ever use CSM rules for daemon-lite Legions or renegade concepts.

Why do you even care?  It's not like you actually play Chaos.

[Lucerne]

 

Yeah, at this point it's safe to say Chaos is being screwed over for the long term. Loyalists stole basically everything worth a damn from the Marine roster, including now on top of the Apostle fiasco, a Master of Executions knockoff that will inevitably have better rules in its Primaris bootleg form and may actually work as intended. New bike models that CSM can't use. Full on shields and power swords. CQC units that will wipe the floor with Chaos, while GW has always used the excuse of "it's a CQC army" to strip away ranged options from Chaos.

 

Chaos is being screwed over in rules, options, and in lore with the absurdity of Primaris consistently being fluffed up and given every advantage with no narrative consequences- mechanically and lorewise, CSM are now the inferior "model" with no real advantages for it. The Primaris are better representations of Legions than anything GW deigns to actually focus on for CSM. LSM have more Legion relic wargear than CSM rules do- the volkite pistol was a particularly keen insult.

 

Heads, Imperials win. Tails, Chaos loses. The fluff only "matters" when it comes to screwing over Chaos players, never when it'd mean Chaos gets something useful.

 

If the goal isn't to drive off Chaos fans, they're certainly doing an incredible job of it accidentally. We're back in the dark days of "Codex: Underequipped Red Corsair Cannon Fodder" from 4e, only worse. If your favored subfaction of CSM can't be proxied as a loyalist mirror match via counts-as, my condolences.

 

GW obviously doesn't think of CSM as anything but "power armoured latd renegades that should have mechnically worse rules and lore emphasizing that".

 

I honestly can't think of any reason to ever use CSM rules for daemon-lite Legions or renegade concepts.

Why do you even care?  It's not like you actually play Chaos.

 

You're right. I don't.

The Iron Warriors I'm stockpiling bits for are going to be consigned to a single kill team, probably not even as a Chaos KT ruleset. Because they don't have satisfying rules. "Deathwatch rules for counts-as forlorn hope squad" has a much better ring to it and honestly represents the IW far better.

The Series 3 Heroes for Death Guard I have are never going to be an army in their own right.

The Gal Vorbak are going to either be converted solely for the sake of fluff, crowbarred into Kill Team, or left untouched and abandoned...because the army they should accompany is crippled and everyone knows it.

As for my Alpha Legion heretic astartes, my main force in the making, no. I'm not going to play them as Chaos. You know why? Because Chosen representation is a joke. Because vanilla CSM are obviously the death of fun and Primaris are a better representation of Space Marines now with guaranteed options for basic Marine units, loyal or otherwise. Because the Chaos codex does not accurately represent operatives or Legion lore in its rules. Because it offers exactly nothing to someone that would rather not have to look to another codex for lore accurate CSM rules, but doesn't want to play a subpar ruleset that pigeonholes you into unfluffy and honestly rather boring options.

 

So ,no, I don't actually play Chaos. I don't play a Codex seemingly designed to make everything interesting unviable and everything else mediocre. I don't play a Codex where Marines go splat, where half the unique units of my preferred faction aren't even remotely represented let alone viable- farewell to Codex: Heretic Astartes and hi to Codex: Raven Guard and instant access to not only heresy relics and all the options any Marine warband should have access to but also "Headhunters", "Sniper squads", "Exodus", and carapace armoured operatives.

 

And I'm glad I don't!

 

If I mained Iron Warriors and wondered where my artillery was, if I mained Night Lords and wanted to play a fluff compatible terror warband that scorned the gods, if I even played vanilla CSM and wondered why my codex was objectively worse than loyalists and seemingly had all of the weaknesses but none of the strengths that my Codex was supposed to, and where the only thing represented well is a random renegade warband like a particularly unlucky group of red corsairs that forgot where their mortal groupies were- if, as you say "I actually played Chaos", I'd probably have thrown in the towel by now rather than be working towards these projects based on the lore at its best rather than the neglected, anemic thing that is GW's approach to Chaos.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Lucerne

[MegaVolt87]

I don't hold out much hope for our 9th ed dex, its the 9th ed FW re-work coming first to hopefully be good to shore up the playerbase until then.