Are you still having fun?

[Special Officer Doofy]

Well put Lucerne!

[Gederas]

 

Why do you even care?  It's not like you actually play Chaos.

You're right. I don't.

The Iron Warriors I'm stockpiling bits for are going to be consigned to a single kill team, probably not even as a Chaos KT ruleset. Because they don't have satisfying rules. "Deathwatch rules for counts-as forlorn hope squad" has a much better ring to it and honestly represents the IW far better.

The Series 3 Heroes for Death Guard I have are never going to be an army in their own right.

The Gal Vorbak are going to either be converted solely for the sake of fluff, crowbarred into Kill Team, or left untouched and abandoned...because the army they should accompany is crippled and everyone knows it.

As for my Alpha Legion heretic astartes, my main force in the making, no. I'm not going to play them as Chaos. You know why? Because Chosen representation is a joke. Because vanilla CSM are obviously the death of fun and Primaris are a better representation of Space Marines now with guaranteed options for basic Marine units, loyal or otherwise. Because the Chaos codex does not accurately represent operatives or Legion lore in its rules. Because it offers exactly nothing to someone that would rather not have to look to another codex for lore accurate CSM rules, but doesn't want to play a subpar ruleset that pigeonholes you into unfluffy and honestly rather boring options.

 

So ,no, I don't actually play Chaos. I don't play a Codex seemingly designed to make everything interesting unviable and everything else mediocre. I don't play a Codex where Marines go splat, where half the unique units of my preferred faction aren't even remotely represented let alone viable- farewell to Codex: Heretic Astartes and hi to Codex: Raven Guard and instant access to not only heresy relics and all the options any Marine warband should have access to but also "Headhunters", "Sniper squads", "Exodus", and carapace armoured operatives.

 

And I'm glad I don't!

 

If I mained Iron Warriors and wondered where my artillery was, if I mained Night Lords and wanted to play a fluff compatible terror warband that scorned the gods, if I even played vanilla CSM and wondered why my codex was objectively worse than loyalists and seemingly had all of the weaknesses but none of the strengths that my Codex was supposed to, and where the only thing represented well is a random renegade warband like a particularly unlucky group of red corsairs that forgot where their mortal groupies were- if, as you say "I actually played Chaos", I'd probably have thrown in the towel by now rather than be working towards these projects based on the lore at its best rather than the neglected, anemic thing that is GW's approach to Chaos.

Well, you said it yourself Lucerne: You don't play Chaos, you play Alpha Legion poseurs, not Chaos Marines.

 

It honestly amuses me that you act like you're able to complain about Chaos sucking, when you don't even play it. So go, keep playing your "LolSecretlyLoyal (except not really)" convoluted mess of a Legion, pretending to be what you're not.

 

I'll keep flaying faces with my Night Lords, and get hard, enjoyable victories because I have to actively work for them, instead of getting it given to me on a silver platter by having OP or busted rules.

 

You're not giving any constructive feedback or criticism, you're just inanely whining and mewling over not having the hottest rules around.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Gederas

[Lucerne]

 

 

Why do you even care?  It's not like you actually play Chaos.

You're right. I don't.

The Iron Warriors I'm stockpiling bits for are going to be consigned to a single kill team, probably not even as a Chaos KT ruleset. Because they don't have satisfying rules. "Deathwatch rules for counts-as forlorn hope squad" has a much better ring to it and honestly represents the IW far better.

The Series 3 Heroes for Death Guard I have are never going to be an army in their own right.

The Gal Vorbak are going to either be converted solely for the sake of fluff, crowbarred into Kill Team, or left untouched and abandoned...because the army they should accompany is crippled and everyone knows it.

As for my Alpha Legion heretic astartes, my main force in the making, no. I'm not going to play them as Chaos. You know why? Because Chosen representation is a joke. Because vanilla CSM are obviously the death of fun and Primaris are a better representation of Space Marines now with guaranteed options for basic Marine units, loyal or otherwise. Because the Chaos codex does not accurately represent operatives or Legion lore in its rules. Because it offers exactly nothing to someone that would rather not have to look to another codex for lore accurate CSM rules, but doesn't want to play a subpar ruleset that pigeonholes you into unfluffy and honestly rather boring options.

 

So ,no, I don't actually play Chaos. I don't play a Codex seemingly designed to make everything interesting unviable and everything else mediocre. I don't play a Codex where Marines go splat, where half the unique units of my preferred faction aren't even remotely represented let alone viable- farewell to Codex: Heretic Astartes and hi to Codex: Raven Guard and instant access to not only heresy relics and all the options any Marine warband should have access to but also "Headhunters", "Sniper squads", "Exodus", and carapace armoured operatives.

 

And I'm glad I don't!

 

If I mained Iron Warriors and wondered where my artillery was, if I mained Night Lords and wanted to play a fluff compatible terror warband that scorned the gods, if I even played vanilla CSM and wondered why my codex was objectively worse than loyalists and seemingly had all of the weaknesses but none of the strengths that my Codex was supposed to, and where the only thing represented well is a random renegade warband like a particularly unlucky group of red corsairs that forgot where their mortal groupies were- if, as you say "I actually played Chaos", I'd probably have thrown in the towel by now rather than be working towards these projects based on the lore at its best rather than the neglected, anemic thing that is GW's approach to Chaos.

Well, you said it yourself Lucerne: You don't play Chaos, you play Alpha Legion poseurs, not Chaos Marines.

 

It honestly amuses me that you act like you're able to complain about Chaos sucking, when you don't even play it. So go, keep playing your "LolSecretlyLoyal (except not really)" convoluted mess of a Legion, pretending to be what you're not.

 

I'll keep flaying faces with my Night Lords, and get hard, enjoyable victories because I have to actively work for them, instead of getting it given to me on a silver platter by having OP or busted rules.

 

You're not giving any constructive feedback or criticism, you're just inanely whining and mewling over not having the hottest rules around.

 

Excuse you- "Alpha Legion posers" are every bit as valid as your preferred take on Heretic Astartes, thanks. (Amusingly, I'll note there's more support for my posers in Vigilus era lore for Alpha Legion- ie: sniper heavy- than there is for cHaOs mArINeS.) You don't get to gatekeep.

 

And for the record, thinking that Chaos's rules are fine as they are- and more to the point, that they have representative options outside of a very narrow window of Chaos flavor- isn't "working for victories", it's just masochism and ignoring the elephant in the room.

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Lucerne

[Bulwyf]

I do not know how anyone can honestly look at the difference between the Primaris loyalist state of the game and glance over at the Chaos marine state of the game and think they are even remotely balanced. 

[Irate Khornate]

 

 

 

 

Why do you even care? It's not like you actually play Chaos.

You're right. I don't.

The Iron Warriors I'm stockpiling bits for are going to be consigned to a single kill team, probably not even as a Chaos KT ruleset. Because they don't have satisfying rules. "Deathwatch rules for counts-as forlorn hope squad" has a much better ring to it and honestly represents the IW far better.

The Series 3 Heroes for Death Guard I have are never going to be an army in their own right.

The Gal Vorbak are going to either be converted solely for the sake of fluff, crowbarred into Kill Team, or left untouched and abandoned...because the army they should accompany is crippled and everyone knows it.

As for my Alpha Legion heretic astartes, my main force in the making, no. I'm not going to play them as Chaos. You know why? Because Chosen representation is a joke. Because vanilla CSM are obviously the death of fun and Primaris are a better representation of Space Marines now with guaranteed options for basic Marine units, loyal or otherwise. Because the Chaos codex does not accurately represent operatives or Legion lore in its rules. Because it offers exactly nothing to someone that would rather not have to look to another codex for lore accurate CSM rules, but doesn't want to play a subpar ruleset that pigeonholes you into unfluffy and honestly rather boring options.

 

So ,no, I don't actually play Chaos. I don't play a Codex seemingly designed to make everything interesting unviable and everything else mediocre. I don't play a Codex where Marines go splat, where half the unique units of my preferred faction aren't even remotely represented let alone viable- farewell to Codex: Heretic Astartes and hi to Codex: Raven Guard and instant access to not only heresy relics and all the options any Marine warband should have access to but also "Headhunters", "Sniper squads", "Exodus", and carapace armoured operatives.

 

And I'm glad I don't!

 

If I mained Iron Warriors and wondered where my artillery was, if I mained Night Lords and wanted to play a fluff compatible terror warband that scorned the gods, if I even played vanilla CSM and wondered why my codex was objectively worse than loyalists and seemingly had all of the weaknesses but none of the strengths that my Codex was supposed to, and where the only thing represented well is a random renegade warband like a particularly unlucky group of red corsairs that forgot where their mortal groupies were- if, as you say "I actually played Chaos", I'd probably have thrown in the towel by now rather than be working towards these projects based on the lore at its best rather than the neglected, anemic thing that is GW's approach to Chaos.

Well, you said it yourself Lucerne: You don't play Chaos, you play Alpha Legion poseurs, not Chaos Marines.

 

It honestly amuses me that you act like you're able to complain about Chaos sucking, when you don't even play it. So go, keep playing your "LolSecretlyLoyal (except not really)" convoluted mess of a Legion, pretending to be what you're not.

 

I'll keep flaying faces with my Night Lords, and get hard, enjoyable victories because I have to actively work for them, instead of getting it given to me on a silver platter by having OP or busted rules.

 

You're not giving any constructive feedback or criticism, you're just inanely whining and mewling over not having the hottest rules around.

Luce isn't whining about not having the best rules. He's upset that another army has the exact play style and model support that Alpha Legion perfected. I don't blame him for playing it either, it's a lot more fun and fluffy to do it that way.

 

Chaos doesn't have a unique flavor right now besides daemons. With this new release coming we just likely lost our only advantage against Loyalists.

 

I don't know about you, but I'm tired of having to bring cheesy lists against fluffy armies and win only due to the enemy player making a bad call or having a bad matchup.

[Lay]

Until each Legion gets its own Codex a la death Guard or Thousand Sons we just have to accept that we share the same selection of units. You know, like almost every other army in the game.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've figured it out, Lucerne, I now know what your vision of what Chaos should be -- Alphas in particular -- doesn't match what GW says it is.  Because you cannot differentiate 30K and 40K lore.

 

Seriously.  You want Headhunters and Exodus in 40K Alpha lists?  I'm sure Iron Warriors want Tyrant Terminators.  Salamanders would love having Firedrakes.  I didn't see Medusan Immortals or Gorgon Terminators anywhere in my Iron Hands Supplement, either.  There's no Mor Deythan, no Invictus Suzerains, no Ashen Circle or Gal Vorbak...because this is 40K, and those units have NEVER been represented in 40K rules.  You want Alpha Legionnaires who infiltrate enemy armies?  Guess what: in 40K, that's usually not the role of the Marines, it's the role of the operatives.  Fall of Ghorstangrad?  Brain-washed children who were then inducted as Emperor's Swords.  "We Are One" by John French?  Operative takes the place of an Inquisitor.  Only in "Long Games at Carcharias" do actual Space Marines infiltrate a loyalist chapter but in order to do so they had to impersonate an entire company of Crimson Consuls.  The days of small scale infiltration of enemy forces by Space Marines are a bygone era represented by Deliverance Lost and Unremembered Empire.

 

Applying Occam's Razor, the most likely reason Alphas cannot slip a few infiltrators into loyal Chapters here and there on a scale that matters is. . . perhaps. . . because they're Chaos Marines.  They're mutated.  They're spikey.  They're marked by the dark powers and any Librarian or Chaplain worth his mantle would be able to spot a corrupted Marines wearing the face and armor of one of their battle brothers.

 

If you want Iron Warriors artillery, I'll tell you where it is: right in front of your face.  Defiler battle cannons.  Helforged Whirlwind Scorpii.  Forgefiends.  Super-massive railway-style artillery exists in the fluff, but that's too large scale to see on a tabletop; Hell, even Basilisks technically shouldn't need to be taken in model form because they have the range to be miles away from where the chainsword meets flesh.  And if you really want to talk about artillery in an Iron Warriors army, then allow me to enlighten you: actual artillery units have existed for Iron Warriors in the 3.5 codex, but you were limited to ONE of EITHER a Basilisk or a Vindicator.  ONE.  Soooooo much artillery!  Rain of steel, everyone!

 

If you want to play 30K with its special Legion-specific units where everyone is super-special and can do awesome things, good for you.  Go play 30K.  I don't care.  If you want to play secret-loyalist Alpha Legionnaires in 40K using Raven Guard, be my guest.  You hobby however you want to hobby.  But please stop hawking this fiction that the Chaos Codex doesn't represent Chaos Marines.  As lackluster as you might find its rules, that's how GW defines Chaos Marines.

[Lucerne]

I've figured it out, Lucerne, I now know what your vision of what Chaos should be -- Alphas in particular -- doesn't match what GW says it is.  Because you cannot differentiate 30K and 40K lore.

 

Seriously.  You want Headhunters and Exodus in 40K Alpha lists?  I'm sure Iron Warriors want Tyrant Terminators.  Salamanders would love having Firedrakes.  I didn't see Medusan Immortals or Gorgon Terminators anywhere in my Iron Hands Supplement, either.  There's no Mor Deythan, no Invictus Suzerains, no Ashen Circle or Gal Vorbak...because this is 40K, and those units have NEVER been represented in 40K rules.  You want Alpha Legionnaires who infiltrate enemy armies?  Guess what: in 40K, that's usually not the role of the Marines, it's the role of the operatives.  Fall of Ghorstangrad?  Brain-washed children who were then inducted as Emperor's Swords.  "We Are One" by John French?  Operative takes the place of an Inquisitor.  Only in "Long Games at Carcharias" do actual Space Marines infiltrate a loyalist chapter but in order to do so they had to impersonate an entire company of Crimson Consuls.  The days of small scale infiltration of enemy forces by Space Marines are a bygone era represented by Deliverance Lost and Unremembered Empire.

 

Applying Occam's Razor, the most likely reason Alphas cannot slip a few infiltrators into loyal Chapters here and there on a scale that matters is. . . perhaps. . . because they're Chaos Marines.  They're mutated.  They're spikey.  They're marked by the dark powers and any Librarian or Chaplain worth his mantle would be able to spot a corrupted Marines wearing the face and armor of one of their battle brothers.

 

If you want Iron Warriors artillery, I'll tell you where it is: right in front of your face.  Defiler battle cannons.  Helforged Whirlwind Scorpii.  Forgefiends.  Super-massive railway-style artillery exists in the fluff, but that's too large scale to see on a tabletop; Hell, even Basilisks technically shouldn't need to be taken in model form because they have the range to be miles away from where the chainsword meets flesh.  And if you really want to talk about artillery in an Iron Warriors army, then allow me to enlighten you: actual artillery units have existed for Iron Warriors in the 3.5 codex, but you were limited to ONE of EITHER a Basilisk or a Vindicator.  ONE.  Soooooo much artillery!  Rain of steel, everyone!

 

If you want to play 30K with its special Legion-specific units where everyone is super-special and can do awesome things, good for you.  Go play 30K.  I don't care.  If you want to play secret-loyalist Alpha Legionnaires in 40K using Raven Guard, be my guest.  You hobby however you want to hobby.  But please stop hawking this fiction that the Chaos Codex doesn't represent Chaos Marines.  As lackluster as you might find its rules, that's how GW defines Chaos Marines.

And you've just nailed everything wrong with 40k rules! There's no reason Iron Warriors, Salamanders and Iron Hands shouldn't have access to all of those things or variations on them, even within the parameters of lore based rules! The constraints for non-completely Codex standard forces is a purely artificial one rather than one based on lore.

 

You actually like the anemic, generic take on CSM that has very little to do with the GW codex lore for Alpha Legion, and have based your personal headcanon for AL around that pigeonholing by third party writers using them as generic CSM mooks for the story of the week. I don't begrudge you that. You're welcome to it if you find that interpretation fulfilling. But by your own words at the start of that rant, you've just listed everything wrong with the GW codex rulesets and a major disconnect with lore. What does it say about Chaos as a ruleset when there's constant regression backwards from the starting point of the 3.5 codex?

 

I'm not going anywhere so you need to make your peace with that. The Chaos- and yes, some loyalist- codexes are not sufficiently representative of the lore or enjoyable options, and I'm happy that you can find some personal enjoyment in the tattered ruleset that we have.

 

...And purely as a footnote, given the Chaos codex explicitly mentions experienced AL being masters of "the infil-traitor and the thoughtsmith" capable of instilling suspicion and doubt? (Side note, they didn't impersonate the Consuls in person as a military tactic, they pretty much flat out took two entire companies.) Your obsessive insistence on pureeing the AL's selling points as a subfaction into something more generic, and one-note, an insistence that also flies in the face of Alpha Legion-centric novels pointedly featuring non-Chaotic or even Saint approved  Alpha Legionaires- is a case of you imposing your own, valid personal preferences onto canon. Which is less valid as an opinion.

 

 

If you want to play 30K with its special Legion-specific units where everyone is super-special and can do awesome things, good for you.  Go play 30K.  I don't care.

 

Though I suppose a bald-faced admission that you don't consider fun factions capable of unique options to be a valid ideal to work towards is...surprisingly candid, all things considered, and sort of is the last nail in the coffin where your input is concerned.

 

The Chaos Codex is a subpar, limited representation of things that we know exist for CSM from both lore and basic common sense given their faction's very premise.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Lucerne

[Lay]

 What does it say about Chaos as a ruleset when there's constant regression backwards from the starting point of the 3.5 codex?

Would you pick the 3.5 book over the current one? Unit customization has been reduced, sure, but that's a game wide trend. We've never had access to more units than we do today, not to mention legion specific Stratagems, Warlord Traits and other rules that put the old Cultists + army wide infiltration combo to shame.

Our biggest issues are balance related, but that's how it always goes. New Codexes come out and leave older books in the dust.

[Snazzy]

I'm just trying to figure out what CSMs are supposed to be now that Loyalists have stolen the mantle of the elite Astartes.  Super weird that Cultists have become so integrated.  Maybe my thinking is dated.  Perhaps CSMs are supposed to just be one part of a larger Chaos soup.  Even then, i don't get what CSMs add to a Daemon army.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Yeah, looking at the loyalist selection, especially once the close combat stuff hits, it's a bad match up for chaos as I can't really think how any of our combat "specalists" are really going to be able to take on the veterans with stormshields beyond a sinking of stratagems and buffs, which will then struggle once the loyalists use their buffs.
And that new executioner character whilst cool, pretty much invalidates a master of executions.

[Bulwyf]

The allure of Chaos was to supposedly get these gifts from the gods that make you better than you were before these gifts as a regular Astartes. CSM should be stronger going by the lore than the loyalist marines. Instead we had 8th edition introduce the largest imbalance yet in terms of comparison. 9th edition starts out with even more Primaris versions for loyalist. That is good to have more options, sure, but it only further removes CSM from a balance point of view.

 

9th edition needs to remedy this by having CSM shown as true veteran of a 10k+ year war with more stats. Why are the bad guys the clear underdogs in every edition of 40k? That isn't how a narrative works let alone how a game should play out. I realize you want true balance in terms of game play but CSM has been on the short end of the stick for many years now.

 

The rules for loyalist marines are not just better than CSM but in some cases they actually closer represent what the traitor legions should be in 40k. Sad. I don't blame anyone for using those rules for their own army and saying these are chaos guys but I'm using "X" rules from chapter "X" because it is what my chaos guys should be.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 What does it say about Chaos as a ruleset when there's constant regression backwards from the starting point of the 3.5 codex?

Would you pick the 3.5 book over the current one? Unit customization has been reduced, sure, but that's a game wide trend. We've never had access to more units than we do today, not to mention legion specific Stratagems, Warlord Traits and other rules that put the old Cultists + army wide infiltration combo to shame.

Our biggest issues are balance related, but that's how it always goes. New Codexes come out and leave older books in the dust.

 

 

Assuming FW units aren't in that equation and just the codex itself- yes the 3.5 dex. If you rolled the warlord traits as pts purchasable army wide or just even army wide buffs, rolled some stratagems back into army and unit special rules, adding back more options like bike HQ's, termi Dark Apostle/ exalt etc then we are getting a better deal. But that is a design thing, so would happen to SM as well and they would still be slightly ahead instead of as majorly with the same changes applied to them. Heck even with how SM are now, you could adapt 30k legion stuff over and the primaris and new stuff would still be better and we would be 2nd place to SM still. What should happen to SM is first born should be de-coupled from primaris, we see the codex revisions revert back to a legion organized chapter with associted tech. This avoids a lot of primaris and old marine combo's that are a problem. That way the named OG 1st founders are better balanced between the two marine types as well, as there are advantages and disadvantages by only having one type. 

 

I don't think its right to berate others for counts as, its a game and its good to win at least a few times. Also CSM's in the past were too hard locked lore wise into warp bound slavering hordes losing all good tech and equipment. Now there is scope for some to operate and be equipped like an actual legion era force, and people don't like it for some reason as well as the new possibility of CSM's now able to be based in real space, post rift thus eliminating the problems of existing in the EoT/ Malestorm/ warp for recruits, equipment etc. Is it commonplace? Not yet, but its happening and a plausible possibility and the new normal. Sure we don't have the actual 30k units, but can make an approximation with say chosen as Reavers, tactical support squad, vet squad etc. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Lay]

Assuming FW units aren't in that equation and just the codex itself- yes the 3.5 dex. If you rolled the warlord traits as pts purchasable army wide or just even army wide buffs, rolled some stratagems back into army and unit special rules, adding back more options like bike HQ's, termi Dark Apostle/ exalt etc then we are getting a better deal.

That's just cherrypicking from both books which is besides the point. You might as well argue in favor of rolling your favorite 3.5 options into the current book. Same difference.

 

I don't think its right to berate others for counts as, its a game and its good to win at least a few times.

People can play however they want, but there's complaining about our available options underperforming and complaining that we don't get the type of support that would be on the same level as giving each Legion a separate Codex.

 

Sure we don't have the actual 30k units, but can make an approximation with say chosen as Reavers, tactical support squad, vet squad etc.

But we *have* access to 30k units via Forgeworld. Not all of them, but if people want to fault the Codex or FW for not porting every single thing over, they're just having unrealistic expectations.

[Lucerne]

I'm just going to note that the current CSM codex amusingly may not even be accurate to its own internal artwork- unless there are generic daemonblades for Sorcerors, Iron Warriors and World Eaters now...or random Chaos Lords with MoN in the CSM codex can take flails of corruption

 

Khorne berserkers can't take flails despite that being their lore in their very own codex.
 

(I wanted to cite the Chosen artwork as another example of false advertising, but the artwork of chosen using daemonweapons has sadly been removed from the latest edition.)

Edited May 24, 2020 by Lucerne

[Irate Khornate]

I think we're getting a bit off course folks.

[MegaVolt87]

Probably, though fun is derivative in this context.

[Jings]

 

If I mained Iron Warriors and wondered where my artillery was

 

 

Oh my god this feel I know this feel. My Vindicators haven't cut it since the removal of templates and the Hellforged Scorpius is nice and fun to convert but wayyyyyy too expensive for what it actually delivers.  

[Squike]

I like my scorpius, it does average and I’m considering getting a second, however I agree that it is over costed points wise for what it does.

[Prot]

Guys I really don't think we should argue the basis of the rules or why they are bad, or who is right or wrong. We all get something different from the game. I learned that a long time ago.

 

If someone asks me "are you still having fun" in reference to Chaos Space Marines, my answer is yes, but not in any competitive environment. (Again I can only speak from a heavy Black Legion competitive stand point.)

 

I think it's very hard to watch GW push very hard to sell one set of figures (Primaris in this case) and leave the historic 'bad guys' sucking wind on so many levels. I'm not bitter about it, it's just a fact. I've done some things I'm not proud of.... Contorted Epitome, hugging the leg of a Riptide for half a game refusing to let go. An army of Knights with Thousand Sons trickery in the background. 

 

It's just stuff we have to do outside the codex. I'd prefer not to for sure. I know part of my problem is I played Iron Warriors for almost 10 years during a part of which took place in 3rd edition where I had won tournaments with over 50+ people in them. All within the codex of course. That's when a Defiler and Basilisk guessing range was key, and I'll never forget winning a tournament on a guessed Basilisk round that tagged 2 Wave Serpents and killed half the infantry around them. 

 

From that to.... 6 squads of Cultists and Cacaphony Havocs/Oblits with my fingers crossed. It's a reach.

 

The bad news is (for me) I -honestly- have NO idea how they can make our beautiful new CSM troop sculpts work in game, while keeping loyalist marine troops bad enough to push loyalist players to keep buying Primaris.  I can handle a lot of the jankery I'm forced into but I really hate our marine troops in competitive play right now. Really bad spot, and a really bad look for our rules.

 

The good news is we are nearing a new edition! Even -terrain- rules can make a difference for so many of us looking to pursue assaultly CSM.  

 

Until then I keep working on units that just don't work at the highest levels but I play people who sometimes shoot for the same. When I get stuck in with (competitive play) Tau like one of my last games.... I try to win, even when all but tabled in T3 (I did a report on that in the Black Legion forum last week , so... it's a true story). Those games are a disgusting grind and can leave you quite salty if you're not careful... even if you win.

 

So let's just keep trying to have fun with our favourite units/Legions, and hope 9th is a little kinder to us (non-soup wise).

Edited May 26, 2020 by Prot

[McElMcNinja]

I was not having fun after GKs dropped, I was convinced Chaos (more specifically DG) is a bottom tier codex. This is from a competitive point of view, I would consider Space Marines, Eldar, GK, and mybe Skittari top. Chaos, DG, Daemons,Tryanids botlom and everything else in some place in between.

 

I could not get a win with my DG against GKs, so I mixed Daemons, DG, and Chaos in every combo I could think of. Possessed bomb to all heavy units, oblits to heldrakes. It took 20+ games before I finally beat them.

 

But then It hit me, I was having a blast, it was so satisfying to finally beat them. I really liked the challenge, trying all those combos, and finding that sweet spot of a balanced list. I've taken this army against horde armies like ork and tryanids, and it's good against them as well as eldar. I can't wait to try it against marines, I might have to tweak it a little more.

 

I'm also hopeful my PA and the new rules will help a lot.

 

TLDR: Yes, I am still having fun.

[dice4thedicegod]

I was not having fun after GKs dropped, I was convinced Chaos (more specifically DG) is a bottom tier codex. This is from a competitive point of view, I would consider Space Marines, Eldar, GK, and mybe Skittari top. Chaos, DG, Daemons,Tryanids botlom and everything else in some place in between.

 

I could not get a win with my DG against GKs, so I mixed Daemons, DG, and Chaos in every combo I could think of. Possessed bomb to all heavy units, oblits to heldrakes. It took 20+ games before I finally beat them.

 

But then It hit me, I was having a blast, it was so satisfying to finally beat them. I really liked the challenge, trying all those combos, and finding that sweet spot of a balanced list. I've taken this army against horde armies like ork and tryanids, and it's good against them as well as eldar. I can't wait to try it against marines, I might have to tweak it a little more.

 

I'm also hopeful my PA and the new rules will help a lot.

 

TLDR: Yes, I am still having fun.

Something that I find that can affect enjoyment is, “am I the underdog “.   If playing nu-marines, I may feel that I “should” win, so there’s perhaps a bit of pressure... whereas with other forces, just relax and see if you beat the odds!

[Plague _Lord]

I think the only way to fix chaos marines and firstborn is to make weapons weaker. Right now MEQ just doesn't mean much - almost everything in the game has either at least ap-1, which is enough to decrease the effectiveness of marine armour by 25%, or weight of fire that the armour doesn't mean much. 

 

Or just make power armour ignore armour penetration up to ap-2. That way marines would be much tougher against small arms fire, while still being suceptible to weight of fire (as it should be). Even better, call it chaos armour and make this rule unique to chaos marine armies. If it works on SOB, it can work with chaos marines.

 

Add to that the return of veteran skills and/or marks actually giving a bonus and we would have marines that could acutally be worth it. Oh and upgrade all bolter to the bolt rifle level ap.

 

10 primaris intercessors as is vs 10 chaos marines ignoring ap-1 and having ap-1 bolters basically give equal returns in terms of casualties (roughly 1,7 CSM wounds and 2,1 primaris wounds). Adding the old MoC rules would push it more into favour of the CSM depending on role (so +1T for nurgle, +1A for khorne etc.) but still only slightlty.

[dice4thedicegod]

I think the only way to fix chaos marines and firstborn is to make weapons weaker. Right now MEQ just doesn't mean much - almost everything in the game has either at least ap-1, which is enough to decrease the effectiveness of marine armour by 25%, or weight of fire that the armour doesn't mean much. 

 

Or just make power armour ignore armour penetration up to ap-2. That way marines would be much tougher against small arms fire, while still being suceptible to weight of fire (as it should be). Even better, call it chaos armour and make this rule unique to chaos marine armies. If it works on SOB, it can work with chaos marines.

 

Add to that the return of veteran skills and/or marks actually giving a bonus and we would have marines that could acutally be worth it. Oh and upgrade all bolter to the bolt rifle level ap.

 

10 primaris intercessors as is vs 10 chaos marines ignoring ap-1 and having ap-1 bolters basically give equal returns in terms of casualties (roughly 1,7 CSM wounds and 2,1 primaris wounds). Adding the old MoC rules would push it more into favour of the CSM depending on role (so +1T for nurgle, +1A for khorne etc.) but still only slightlty.

The problem is that every faction “fix” they’ve applied has always been focused on increasing killing power rather than survivability.

[Doom Herald]

I was actually having fun in 8th, but it seems like the 9th edition changes are going to have SERIOUS impacts on the way I play my army. Now, I'm really dreading the changes coming. Vehicles and monsters being able to shoot in combat and modifiers maxing at +/-1 (maybe just to hit modifiers, I've seen it said all modifiers and just hit roll modifiers) both mean my characters, who were the main killers in my NL army, will be far less effective. They say morale will be improved though, so that's small hope for me. Although, if it is ALL modifiers that max out it might not mean much to NL to change morale if LD can only be +/- 1. I honestly don't trust GW to do anything but make more Primaris Lt.s at this point, so I'm not too optimistic. This is supposed to be a minor edition adjustment, but it likely means completely changing how my army plays right when I got it figured out. Not fun for me.