Scout Sergeant: Red or Black shoulders?

[Panzer]

Almost makes me want to buy and paint some Scouts to counter this goblin green abomination with some good taste. :D 

[SnorriSnorrison]

I don't see a reason for why Scouts shouldn't follow the regular Blood Angels heraldry. Can't find anything about it in the Codex either. I wouldn't put too much weight on the pictures in the webshop though. The 'Eavy Metal team also paints Terminator helmets in red despite Veterans wearing golden helmets simply because that's how it has always been done (I guess).

Well, back then the only gold helmets were reserved for honour guards and while there used to be a terminator command squad, no “official” pictures of it were found in the codex if my memory serves.

Veteran helmet’s were painted in mostly yellow for the Blood Angels since they were pretty much always considered assault veterans, and the distinction of Van- and Sternguard hadn’t appeared for another 2 editions.

 

So, Terminator Helmets in red is absolutely fine and true to the squad markings. Being a veteran doesn’t automatically includes a golden helmet by the old standards, it’s merely a simplification of the former yellow/gold helmets (since they’re considered equivalent on the colour scale).

 

 

To the topic at hand.

I’ve never painted my scouts with black shoulder pads, perhaps (mis)guided by the GW site pictures. Now that I think about it, it would’ve made sense to paint them black.

[Panzer]

 

I don't see a reason for why Scouts shouldn't follow the regular Blood Angels heraldry. Can't find anything about it in the Codex either. I wouldn't put too much weight on the pictures in the webshop though. The 'Eavy Metal team also paints Terminator helmets in red despite Veterans wearing golden helmets simply because that's how it has always been done (I guess).

Well, back then the only gold helmets were reserved for honour guards and while there used to be a terminator command squad, no “official” pictures of it were found in the codex if my memory serves.

Veteran helmet’s were painted in mostly yellow for the Blood Angels since they were pretty much always considered assault veterans, and the distinction of Van- and Sternguard hadn’t appeared for another 2 editions.

 

So, Terminator Helmets in red is absolutely fine and true to the squad markings. Being a veteran doesn’t automatically includes a golden helmet by the old standards, it’s merely a simplification of the former yellow/gold helmets (since they’re considered equivalent on the colour scale).

 

 

To the topic at hand.

I’ve never painted my scouts with black shoulder pads, perhaps (mis)guided by the GW site pictures. Now that I think about it, it would’ve made sense to paint them black.

 

 

So as I said, "because that's how it has always been done". It's just leftovers of how it used to be in the past. Official heraldry changed but painted models didn't. ;) 

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

I don't see a reason for why Scouts shouldn't follow the regular Blood Angels heraldry. Can't find anything about it in the Codex either. I wouldn't put too much weight on the pictures in the webshop though. The 'Eavy Metal team also paints Terminator helmets in red despite Veterans wearing golden helmets simply because that's how it has always been done (I guess).

 

Well, back then the only gold helmets were reserved for honour guards and while there used to be a terminator command squad, no “official” pictures of it were found in the codex if my memory serves.

Veteran helmet’s were painted in mostly yellow for the Blood Angels since they were pretty much always considered assault veterans, and the distinction of Van- and Sternguard hadn’t appeared for another 2 editions.

So, Terminator Helmets in red is absolutely fine and true to the squad markings. Being a veteran doesn’t automatically includes a golden helmet by the old standards, it’s merely a simplification of the former yellow/gold helmets (since they’re considered equivalent on the colour scale).

To the topic at hand.

I’ve never painted my scouts with black shoulder pads, perhaps (mis)guided by the GW site pictures. Now that I think about it, it would’ve made sense to paint them black.

 

So as I said, "because that's how it has always been done". It's just leftovers of how it used to be in the past. Official heraldry changed but painted models didn't. ;)

Perhaps, my point being that there’s still a distinction in the first company: Veterans of power armoured squads and terminators. All are veterans, but only the former wear golden helmets and it’s the official heraldry as far as I know. :)

[Panzer]

 

 

 

I don't see a reason for why Scouts shouldn't follow the regular Blood Angels heraldry. Can't find anything about it in the Codex either. I wouldn't put too much weight on the pictures in the webshop though. The 'Eavy Metal team also paints Terminator helmets in red despite Veterans wearing golden helmets simply because that's how it has always been done (I guess).

Well, back then the only gold helmets were reserved for honour guards and while there used to be a terminator command squad, no “official” pictures of it were found in the codex if my memory serves.

Veteran helmet’s were painted in mostly yellow for the Blood Angels since they were pretty much always considered assault veterans, and the distinction of Van- and Sternguard hadn’t appeared for another 2 editions.

So, Terminator Helmets in red is absolutely fine and true to the squad markings. Being a veteran doesn’t automatically includes a golden helmet by the old standards, it’s merely a simplification of the former yellow/gold helmets (since they’re considered equivalent on the colour scale).

To the topic at hand.

I’ve never painted my scouts with black shoulder pads, perhaps (mis)guided by the GW site pictures. Now that I think about it, it would’ve made sense to paint them black.

 

So as I said, "because that's how it has always been done". It's just leftovers of how it used to be in the past. Official heraldry changed but painted models didn't.

Perhaps, my point being that there’s still a distinction in the first company: Veterans of power armoured squads and terminators. All are veterans, but only the former wear golden helmets and it’s the official heraldry as far as I know.

 

 

Again, only per the models (and artworks which are usually inspired by the models). Per what's written in the codex Terminators should be wearing golden helmets too.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Panzer

[SnorriSnorrison]

Nah, that doesn’t look right! :D I can see the point though; I just couldn’t do it myself.

[Thoridon]

I guess Terminators don’t need it as only Veterans wear Terminator armour. No one looks at a Terminator and says “hmm, is that Donariel the renowned hero of countless battles or Dave the new recruit?”

 

Painting power armoured Veteran helmets gold helps them stand out from regular power armoured marines.

[appiah4]

Almost makes me want to buy and paint some Scouts to counter this goblin green abomination with some good taste.

You, sir, have objectively poor taste.

Also, let's settle this once and for all, originally gold was not a distinguisher of veterancy or office, it was just the armor color of particular Commanders and Captains, and the helmet color of Honor Guard.

Hence, it was inferred to be related to title if at all anything.

3rd Edition codex explicitly states that models have helmet colors that fit their organization chart roles and veterancy is marked by skulls or Crux Terminatus on the shoulder as per Codex Astartes:

Gold helmets denoting veterancy was introduced by GW as late as 5e IIRC and it still makes no sense to me AFAIC.

Edited April 29, 2020 by appiah5

[Panzer]

Almost makes me want to buy and paint some Scouts to counter this goblin green abomination with some good taste.

You, sir, have objectively poor taste.

Also, let's settle this once and for all, originally gold was not a distinguisher of veterancy or office, it was just the armor color of particular Commanders and Captains, and the helmet color of Honor Guard.

Hence, it was inferred to be related to title if at all anything.

3rd Edition codex explicitly states that models have helmet colors that fit their organization chart roles and veterancy is marked by skulls or Crux Terminatus on the shoulder as per Codex Astartes:

Gold helmets denoting veterancy was introduced by GW as late as 5e IIRC and it still makes no sense to me AFAIC.

Well how do I put it ... "no" to the objectively and "yes but irrelevant" to the rest because the past is the past. Gotta live in the present. ;)

[appiah4]

I hobby as the Emperor wills it; I look to the past, blind to the future.

[Panzer]

Nothing one can do against blind ignorance I guess. :P 

[Karhedron]

Gold helmets denoting veterancy was introduced by GW as late as 5e IIRC and it still makes no sense to me AFAIC.

Maybe the just wanted to copy the UMs who have a specific helmet colour for veterans. Whether it makes sense is probably less relevant than whether it looks cool and that is very much down to personal taste.

The 4th edition mini-codex in WD still had Veteran assault Squads with yellow helmets.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Karhedron

[appiah4]

Oh, I forgot about 4th edition colors; yes yellow in 4e as well.

 

Also, if anyone has the 4th Edition Codex PDF (which was free by the way) and can link me to it I would be very grateul..

[Karhedron]

Also, if anyone has the 4th Edition Codex PDF (which was free by the way) and can link me to it I would be very grateul..

Not standalone but the complete PDFs of the 2 issues of White Dwarf in question can be found here:

 

https://thetrove.net/Magazines/White%20Dwarf/White%20Dwarf%20330.pdf

https://thetrove.net/Magazines/White%20Dwarf/White%20Dwarf%20331.pdf

[Lasuria]

If memory serves, weren't the black shoulder for veteran sergeants back then ?

 

So to circle back to the original question, shouldn't you paint your scout sergeant shoulders black only if it's a veteran ? (I don't even know if such a thing exists, I haven't played since ... damn 6th ed I think xD).

Edited May 1, 2020 by Lasuria

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

Just sergeants now

[appiah4]

If memory serves, weren't the black shoulder for veteran sergeants back then ?

So to circle back to the original question, shouldn't you paint your scout sergeant shoulders black only if it's a veteran ? (I don't even know if such a thing exists, I haven't played since ... damn 6th ed I think xD).

Your memory is wrong, veterancy was denoted by the color of the banner, all sergeants had black shoulderpads. Red banner with black chapter symbol for sergeants and black banner with red chapter symbol for veteran sergeants.

[Spagunk]

If we only go back as far as 3rd edition, sergeants got a yellow/gold chapter badge on a black background (page 12, mid left side of page). Appiah is correct as page 14 shows banner info and vet sarges got black banner with red chapter symbol.

 

That said, I don't think anyone would have a problem if you came up with your own distinct way to denote things.

[Vermintide]

If memory serves, weren't the black shoulder for veteran sergeants back then ?

 

So to circle back to the original question, shouldn't you paint your scout sergeant shoulders black only if it's a veteran ? (I don't even know if such a thing exists, I haven't played since ... damn 6th ed I think xD).

Not really relevant, but reading between the lines a bit, all modern sergeants are veteran sergeants. They have the extra attack by default now.

 

Does anybody out there still roll an army with banners on every sergeant?

[appiah4]

 

If memory serves, weren't the black shoulder for veteran sergeants back then ?

 

So to circle back to the original question, shouldn't you paint your scout sergeant shoulders black only if it's a veteran ? (I don't even know if such a thing exists, I haven't played since ... damn 6th ed I think xD).

Not really relevant, but reading between the lines a bit, all modern sergeants are veteran sergeants. They have the extra attack by default now.

 

Does anybody out there still roll an army with banners on every sergeant?

 

 

I have them on mine, most of them.  On Captaions, Chaplains and Librarians as well.

Edited May 1, 2020 by appiah5

[Lasuria]

If memory serves, weren't the black shoulder for veteran sergeants back then ?

So to circle back to the original question, shouldn't you paint your scout sergeant shoulders black only if it's a veteran ? (I don't even know if such a thing exists, I haven't played since ... damn 6th ed I think xD).

Your memory is wrong, veterancy was denoted by the color of the banner, all sergeants had black shoulderpads. Red banner with black chapter symbol for sergeants and black banner with red chapter symbol for veteran sergeants.

I stand corrected then, my bad ^^

If memory serves, weren't the black shoulder for veteran sergeants back then ?

So to circle back to the original question, shouldn't you paint your scout sergeant shoulders black only if it's a veteran ? (I don't even know if such a thing exists, I haven't played since ... damn 6th ed I think xD).

Not really relevant, but reading between the lines a bit, all modern sergeants are veteran sergeants. They have the extra attack by default now.

Does anybody out there still roll an army with banners on every sergeant?

So ... all sergeants should have a gold helmet then ?

[Vermintide]

Don't be silly. Sergeants don't wear helmets.

[Panzer]

 

If memory serves, weren't the black shoulder for veteran sergeants back then ?

 

So to circle back to the original question, shouldn't you paint your scout sergeant shoulders black only if it's a veteran ? (I don't even know if such a thing exists, I haven't played since ... damn 6th ed I think xD).

Not really relevant, but reading between the lines a bit, all modern sergeants are veteran sergeants. They have the extra attack by default now.

 

 

 

Eh, not really. Unit leaders always had a slightly better profile than the rest of the unit since forever. That doesn't mean they are veterans in case of Marines though. It especially doesn't make sense considering Veteran units have Sergeants as well which can't be Veteran Veterans now, can they? ;).

[Vermintide]

It used to be the case that you got a sergeant with higher leadership by default, and you paid extra points to make him a "veteran sergeant". This gave him an extra attack, and also gave him the ability to pick wargear from the armoury- Otherwise he only had the standard bolter loadout like the rest of the squad.

 

So judging by the fact modern sergeants get to pick whatever loadout they like, and get the extra attack...

And yes, that does apply to squads that were supposed to be veterans already, such as the "honour guard" or just the plain "veteran squad"- But in those cases, not choosing the "veteran sergeant" meant you didn't actually have a sergeant, it was just 5 regular veterans, for example.

Source: 3rd ed books. I've actually been working on a 3rd ed list lately for a game post-quarantine, and it's caused me a fair bit of head scratching to port my modern models backwards :D

Edited May 1, 2020 by Vermintide

[Xenith]

 

Does anybody out there still roll an army with banners on every sergeant?

Haha, yes.

 

I actually go beyond third edition, which completely removes the concept of a squad leader. my units are split up as in second edition, each unit has a veteran sergeant who has black pads and black banner, and a squad leader, with black pads and red banner. No in-game effect, but it's a fluff thing.