Playing a war of attrition?

[Valkyrion]

Would a 4000 point army completely annihilate a 1000 point army? Of course the answer is yes, but what about four 1000 point armies one after the other?

Me and a buddy are looking for ideas to run such a game once the apocalypse has ended - idea being a space marine company fending off wave after wave of gribblies, in this case it'd be 4 x 1000 points of  mono god daemons. 

 

We were thinking of maybe running a simple survive/destroy type scenario rather than competing for objectives, so if the marines have any infantry models left at the end of game 4 then they win, though this may make for too cautious a game.

In the second and subsequent games, the marine player may deploy his forces as he sees fit, but cannot deploy any model removed during the previous game and all damage carries over to this game (wounded characters and vehicles begin the game as they ended the last).

The marine player cannot use any alternative method of deployment (i.e, every available model must be deployed in the deployment zone at the start of the game)

 

 

Other ideas;

As above, but 3000 points vs 4 x 1000 points. Maybe 4000 points is simply too much for a 1k force to even touch?

 

Restrict or even remove CP's and strategems from the marine player and/or bonus CP's to the daemon player?

 

Play for points to determine winner - maybe too difficult to 'tyranid attack' for the daemons, so marine player gets 3 points per unit destroyed, daemon player gets 1 point per model destroyed - this could lead to shenanigans by the daemon player only fielding 3 greater daemons thus limiting the points available to only 9 per game. Perhaps enforce mandatory 5 unit minimum for daemon player? (so the marines can earn a minimum of 60. I haven't worked out the points for a full battle company, but 100 naked old marines is only around 1300 points so provided the marine player fields more than 60 models then it's fine)

 

No overwatch allowed for the marine player? - this would allow more daemon models to reach combat

 

Short no mans land and small table - 4x4 table, daemon player sets up 12" away and gets the first turn? - potential 1st turn charge, practically guaranteed 2nd turn charge.

 

It doesn't even need to be this edition! If there's a set of similar rules already in existence from a previous edition then we're open to that too. 

 

 

We don't want the first game to be one player simply removing all his models, but depending on the dice gods, we don't want the last game to be the marine player just running around the board to deny a Points victory, or holed up in cover to deny an annihilation victory. 

[Panzer]

Would a 4000 point army completely annihilate a 1000 point army? Of course the answer is yes, but what about four 1000 point armies one after the other?

 

Yes. Easily. The 1000p armies would have to face 4000p of shooting and board control all on their own. You'd be lucky if those 4x1000p could destroy half of the 4000p before the game is over.

 

Your other ideas sound more promising, though I wouldn't touch the CPs and Stratagems. Restricting CPs? What for, Marines already barely get any compared to other armies. Stratagems are simply too much a core part of the faction's design to just remove them too imo.

 

No overwatch probably won't change much for a Marine player unless there's something like dakka centurions or a unit with flamers.

 

Setting up 12" away and getting first turn is not just a potential 1st turn charge, it is a guaranteed first turn charge. Slaanesh can already almost do a first turn charge when setting up 24" away with their Daemonettes. It would be a HUGE disadvantage for the Space Marines since after all they are still mostly a shooty faction. Unless they put everything in transports that is.

 

 

Some of the Narrative missions in the Chapter Approved books and the core rule book have a similar tone, how about just trying one of those?

The Challenge Mission: Last Stand from the CA19 sounds fitting too (page 53). Attacker gets d3 units back every turn (those are new units, so previous buffs etc. don't apply). It's not about who wins but about how long can the Defender survive. Wiped out turn 1-3 gives only 1 point, turn 4 gives 2 points and so on with turn 7+ giving 5 points. It also comes with a set of 3 Stratagems for the Attacker and 3 for the Defender too.

[calgar101]

These scenarios can be really fun and very challenging. Personally I would set the marine army up in the middle in a small set of fortifications and just have the entire daemon army go for them.

I'd stick with 1000 points for Marines and 4000 for the demons but insist on a minimum of 1500 points of daemon troops. These type of games are no way supposed to be fair or balanced in the defenders favour but a demonic assault wouldn't just be made of greater demons.

As for victory conditions the marines surviving could be one and would probably be hard. What if the marines had a powerful psyker who was the target of the assault? Make rules for a powerful psyker level 4, some good wargear etc fudging the rules slightly but the marines dont pay points for him. If the librarian survives then marines win.

As for CP you could ignore them entirely? Or each side gets to pick and use 1 maybe 2 stratagem for free but they have to fit the narrative.

[Valkyrion]

 

Would a 4000 point army completely annihilate a 1000 point army? Of course the answer is yes, but what about four 1000 point armies one after the other?

 

Yes. Easily. The 1000p armies would have to face 4000p of shooting and board control all on their own. You'd be lucky if those 4x1000p could destroy half of the 4000p before the game is over.

 

 

Setting up 12" away and getting first turn is not just a potential 1st turn charge, it is a guaranteed first turn charge. Slaanesh can already almost do a first turn charge when setting up 24" away with their Daemonettes. It would be a HUGE disadvantage for the Space Marines since after all they are still mostly a shooty faction. Unless they put everything in transports that is.

 

 

 

 

Cheers!

With regards to the above though - the first point is that the marines would start off at 4000 points and easily annihilate the first 1000 point wave, but the point would be that any model removed from play doesn't come back for game 2. So if 100 marines start game 1 and 20 die then only 80 start game two. 15 more die, so only 65 start game three and so on. So 4000 points is gradually whittled away depending on the dice gods and player tactics. 

 

Secondly - regarding the huge disadvantage for the space marines - they'd have 4000 points vs the daemons 1000 if this was game one. That was kinda the idea to try and balance it out so that a 1000 point army can at least do something before it's destroyed, paving the way for the second wave to have an easier time of it.

[Panzer]

 

 

Would a 4000 point army completely annihilate a 1000 point army? Of course the answer is yes, but what about four 1000 point armies one after the other?

 

Yes. Easily. The 1000p armies would have to face 4000p of shooting and board control all on their own. You'd be lucky if those 4x1000p could destroy half of the 4000p before the game is over.

 

 

Setting up 12" away and getting first turn is not just a potential 1st turn charge, it is a guaranteed first turn charge. Slaanesh can already almost do a first turn charge when setting up 24" away with their Daemonettes. It would be a HUGE disadvantage for the Space Marines since after all they are still mostly a shooty faction. Unless they put everything in transports that is.

 

 

 

 

Cheers!

With regards to the above though - the first point is that the marines would start off at 4000 points and easily annihilate the first 1000 point wave, but the point would be that any model removed from play doesn't come back for game 2. So if 100 marines start game 1 and 20 die then only 80 start game two. 15 more die, so only 65 start game three and so on. So 4000 points is gradually whittled away depending on the dice gods and player tactics. 

 

Secondly - regarding the huge disadvantage for the space marines - they'd have 4000 points vs the daemons 1000 if this was game one. That was kinda the idea to try and balance it out so that a 1000 point army can at least do something before it's destroyed, paving the way for the second wave to have an easier time of it.

 

 

Yeah I understood that. My answer doesn't change. ^^

[Xenith]

 

 

Would a 4000 point army completely annihilate a 1000 point army? Of course the answer is yes, but what about four 1000 point armies one after the other?

 

Yes. Easily. The 1000p armies would have to face 4000p of shooting and board control all on their own. You'd be lucky if those 4x1000p could destroy half of the 4000p before the game is over.

 

 

Setting up 12" away and getting first turn is not just a potential 1st turn charge, it is a guaranteed first turn charge. Slaanesh can already almost do a first turn charge when setting up 24" away with their Daemonettes. It would be a HUGE disadvantage for the Space Marines since after all they are still mostly a shooty faction. Unless they put everything in transports that is.

 

 

 

 

Cheers!

With regards to the above though - the first point is that the marines would start off at 4000 points and easily annihilate the first 1000 point wave, but the point would be that any model removed from play doesn't come back for game 2. So if 100 marines start game 1 and 20 die then only 80 start game two. 15 more die, so only 65 start game three and so on. So 4000 points is gradually whittled away depending on the dice gods and player tactics. 

 

Secondly - regarding the huge disadvantage for the space marines - they'd have 4000 points vs the daemons 1000 if this was game one. That was kinda the idea to try and balance it out so that a 1000 point army can at least do something before it's destroyed, paving the way for the second wave to have an easier time of it.

 

 

Panzers point is still very true - you have 4k against 1k. The 1k wont survive past turn1. Assuming they can even kill 1k's worth of models over 6 turns, then the next 1k army is still having to face 3k worth of points, etc. 

 

I'd go back to the Meat Grinder scenario, which was basically originally from 3rd ed, but reprinted in a recent book or chapter approved.

 

Equal armies, all troops units from the attacker enter from their own board edge in the turn after they get wiped out. Game lasts 6 turns, defender just needs one model to survive, attacker needs to wipe out. 

[sairence]

You'd also have to take the armies into account. Marines can do a lot of damage at range...I don't know demons too well, but afaik they are mainly combat. Meaning if the demons get shot off before coming close, the marines will never take any damage. If it was IG attacking marines? Very different story. Edited April 23, 2020 by sairence

[Emicus]

Shooting vs melee units on each side changes the 'point value' too.

 

Just tweak the numbers!

2k defender vs 1k * 4 attacker

4k shooter vs 1000 * billion melee attacker...

[Cleon]

I assume the point of this is one player has 4,000 points of marines and wants to use them, but the other only has 1000 points? if so the other option is to split the Marine army into four 1,000 point forces, have them each face the 1,000 points in turn and then the marine survivors from the games (including defeats if there are survivors) being pulled together with whatever under strength squads they have for a final stand against a fifth wave of demons.

[DuskRaider]

I've done attrition battles against Tyranids. In fact, they used to have a rule where if they lost a unit of 'Gaunts or 'Gants they would reappear at the table edge. Over time they WILL drag down anything they can damage, which at that point was anything without an Armour Value. It's a lot of fun to see how long your dudes can last.