Hypothetical Horus Heresy Series

[bluntblade]

Increasingly I think that we should've seen more of the Shattered Legion and Blackshield elements on the Traitor side in the lead-up to the Siege of Terra, rather than them all coming out of the woodwork during Solar War. So Horus and his senior captains begin to take on (or as a point of difference and price, refuse to take on) forces of Night Lords, Alpha Legion, turncoat White Scars and other, less identifiable Space Marines either just prior to or in the wake of Molech. Perhaps at this point our Newborn Son of Horus begins to get some focus.

 

On the Night Lords front in particular, I'd have the Painted Count at most just be some guy who takes control of a Night Lords force and goes to be an annoyance in Ultramar. The majority of the Legion splits into Sevatar's six Great Companies and goes off to do its thing with varying degrees of corruption. The other thing I'd bring in with them is some consideration that for at least a decade or so, they wouldn't have actually been recruiting from Nostromo.

Edited May 8, 2020 by bluntblade

[Roomsky]

Death Guard – Chris Wraight

POV Marine: Caipha Morarg, Nathaniel Garro (1, 3), Calas Typhon (2)

 

The Arc: A bitter Mortarion joins the traitors, believing that the Imperium’s end will lead to a better future for humanity. Ultimately, his faith in his sons and his unwillingness to consort with daemons lead his allies to conspire against him, and shape him into Nurgle’s champion.

 

1. Flashbacks to Barbarus punctuate the story. Opens with Mortarion triumphant at Nikea, but his mood sours when he learns the Emperor is not banning psykers outright, rather the loosely defined practice of “Sorcery.” Mortarion receives an invitation from Horus during the Jorgall campaign (which in this case is fending off an invasion), he briefly leaves his legion with Typhon to meet him. Morarg reflects that he and Typhon are frequently struggling for Mortarion’s favour. On Mortarion’s return the legion makes for Isstvan III, with Mortarion, Typhon, and Morarg each interviewing his legionaries to determine where their higher loyalties lie. Morarg reviews straightforwardly, Mortarion refuses to condemn any of his captains and places Garro in charge of the apparently inconsequential Eisenstein, and Typhon uses this as an excuse to send his rivals and Morarg’s supporters to their deaths. Once the Virus bombs have been launched, Garro and several other small ships flee the system (thanks Bobss), with Garro managing to outmanoeuvre the Terminus Est. Typhus’ failure combined with Morarg’s suggestions of his self-serving ways see him fall out of favour for the time being. Garro’s arrival at Terra coincides with the climax of Mortarion’s flashbacks, both are saved by the Emperor’s Light.

 

2. Mortarion sends Typhon to join with Targost in delaying the Blood Angels’ rush to Terra, a punishment in the guise of glory. Mortarion is Horus’ closest lieutenant, but is chastised for his failure to capture the Eisenstein. Horus suggests the Death Guard form the front line of the trap at Isstvan V as they are the hardiest, Mortarion refuses to let his sons be used as cannon fodder, he acquiesces to an even split with World Eaters. The two oversee command of Isstvan V, while Angron and Fulgrim take to the field. Typhon is pleased to be open with his psychic ability around Targost, but finds the lodgemaster’s air of authority frustrating. Travelling through the Ruinstorm, Typhon receives visions that the time for him to save his gene-father is fast approaching. After the traitor victory at Isstvan V, Horus convenes a war council to discuss how to best make use of Magnus, which Mortarion opposes, as well as chastising his brothers for their easy alliance with warp creatures, antagonizing Lorgar specifically. In private, Horus criticizes Mortarion’s continued obsession over his own grudges, stating he needs a neutral second. Mortarion remains stubborn and refuses to back down from his convictions. Typhon leads an attack on a Blood Angels ship, slaying High Warden Berus. He is forced to retreat, his visions becoming clearer as he recovers from a near-mortal wound in the apothecarian. His fleet leaves Targost behind, Typhon has more important things to do. On Typhon’s return, Mortarion meets with him and Morarg, confessing he fears for the fate of his legion, despite so eagerly joining Horus’ banner. Typhon is surprisingly sympathetic, and for the first time attempts to heal his relationship with Morarg.

 

3. Garro and a team of Knights Errant Death Guard infiltrate the Endurance, tasked with a suicide mission to disable the Death Guard’s advance and assassinate Mortarion if possible. The Death Guard are sent ahead of the traitor advance as a vanguard. Mortarion wonders if this is Horus trying to get rid of him, or punishing him for Typhon’s failures. They enter the warp, and Garro and his Knights find their way largely unhindered. The team destroys the warp drive, then kills the navigators. Typhon arrives with his inner circle, thanking Garro for his contribution to the plan, and offers comradeship under grandfather Nurgle. The team refuses, and is gunned down in a final charge. The Endurance is further damaged as it is torn from the warp, deposited in the heart of the Ruinstorm, most of the rest of his fleet moving to real space as well to support repair. The legion is infected by something especially Nurgley. Another ship is cannibalized for the necessary parts for repair, but several cases reminiscent of Necare’s toxic smog poisoning begin to manifest amongst his legionaries, and daemons are seen in the dark corners of his fleet. Mortarion encourages his sons to endure, but their warp transition is into an even more sickly storm. Morarg discovers this is a part of Typhon’s plan, which the first captain freely admits. Mortarion shoots him with Lantern, but he seems unaffected, stating its ironic he’s in the least amount of pain across the fleet. Mortarion has him placed in a cell, determined that they will endure. The fleet is unable to drop back out of the warp and, after what seems like years, his legionaries lay immobile, writhing and screaming in pain. Mortarion considers killing them himself, but doesn't have the will. He speaks to Typhus, presently in the aspect of Nurgle, and damns the souls of his legion for succour. They return to realspace just outside the Sol system only days after their departure. The Death Guard recover, horrifically deformed but otherwise unhindered. They look upon their lord with greater distress, Mortarion was conscious in the warp for so long he didn't notice the changes wrought upon him. The Solar War begins, and upon Horus’ arrival, the Warmaster seems wholly unsurprised by Mortarion’s alteration. Mortarion grows numb to the material universe, only now seeing the strings that pull him. Typhon confronts Morarg, but forgives him their past disputes “as grandfather Nurgle would want.”

 

-

 

As my general arc for the traitors was having a marine realize their gene-father only sees them as expendable, it was important for me to have Mortarion demonstrably concerned for his sons. Mortarion refuses to bend in his goals: the settling of grudges, and doing what is best for this legion. He can’t let go of his hatred of Pyskers, nor his grudge against the Emperor, and he’s adamantly against the use of legionaries as cannon fodder. His refusal to bend in these principles sees him gradually fall out of Horus’ favour, to the point where Horus sells him to Nurgle for a more pliant tool. The legion interviews and Mortarion’s blindspot for Garro demonstrate he’s only willing to send the most stubborn to their deaths on Isstvan, and personally tried to convince many of them to see point of view. It’s this faith in his legion that leads to his downfall, both by turning a blind eye to his oldest friend, and indirectly allowing Garro to warn Terra of the Heresy.

 

Mortarion’s hatred of the Emperor here is only partially motivated by his wounded pride. Rather, he sees the Emperor as a hypocrite and tyrant just as bad as Necare was. He joins Horus after feeling continually spurned and ignored by an Imperium he’s trying to improve, and the Warmaster promises a better future for all. As the series goes on, Mortarion realizes he’s thrown in with quite the wrong lot, but his persistent nature keeps him on that path; like Dorn, he believes these are all temporary evils. Similar to The Buried Dagger, he doesn’t realize that Nurgle’s been shaping the key moments of his life until it’s too late. Contrast most legions following their primarch into hell, Mortarion is sent there by one of his sons.

 

The first two books here give a view of Horus’ command room that aren’t present for Angron or Fulgrim’s accounts of those engagements. We see Mortarion’s value not only as a strategist in his own right, but as a complementary force to Horus. It’s only when it becomes apparent that Mortarion is sacrificing ruthlessness to spare his sons and morals that Horus begins to raise an eyebrow. These events are a companion to Perturabo’s arc, giving a fuller view of why the Lord of Iron ascended so rapidly in Horus’ esteem: he needed a replacement. Morarg is largely a non-combatant and is here to complement these scenes, as well as giving some non-standard excitement through intrigue in his rivalry with Typhon. Come the end of the series, the legion at large has had their enmity to Nurgle “turned off,” and presumably he and Typhus will work well together moving forward.

 

Garro is much as we know him from the novels, just with an obviously reduced roll. Typhon, in his one novel of POV, views Nurgle as the ultimate good; the Gods of Chaos are inevitable, and Nurgle has only love for his loyal sons. He sees it as his mission to convert his legion, and once he’s in a position to do so he largely drops his more murderous tendencies. Once he returns to the Endurance he’s essentially a mouthpiece for Nurgle, regaining some agency once Mortarion has turned.

 

I’d hope for a lot of small moments throughout showing off the Death Guard’s more positive qualities. They have an easy and friendly command structure, they have no contempt for baseline humanity, Mortarion is strategically gifted, and the legionaries don’t grumble about having to trudge through the worst of it. They’re something of an example of what the Iron Warriors could have been, with some added irony that they end up in so much worse a place than that legion by virtue of Mortarion’s inflexible morality. Many of these qualities are perverted by the time they hit Terran soil, their humanitarian attitude translated to a desire to have everyone embrace Grandfather Nurgle’s love.

 

Sorcery, as defined by this canon's Nikea, is any psychic ability beyond Kine Shields, Telekenesis, or the sharing of spontaneous dream visions. Scrying, channeling destructive energies, swimming in the sea of souls, etc are banned. This maintains utility for the librarians while still limiting their ability to combat warp creatures.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Roomsky

[bluntblade]

I feel like I should have Mortarion doing something after he pops up in Scars. My de facto position seems to be "keep what Wraight, French and AD-B along with most of Abnett's work" (I go back and forth on the question of Imperium Secundus - it certainly needs trimming at least and would likely have been better used for political conflicts than diminishing returns with Curze).

 

So possibly we take Daemonology as a starting point, with Mortarion pushing on towards Molech in parallel to the Sons of Horus - possibly with an emissary of the Warmaster popping up. I definitely agree with Roomsky's view that Mortarion needs to be emphasised more as Horus' right hand at this point, though I'd also add some resentment towards Ferrus, with Mortarion very aware that the Gorgon was Horus' preferred choice of lieutenant. Again, I think this would be a point where it would be sensible to bring in auxiliary forces (particularly the Knights of House Makabius) to emphasise Mortarion's prowess as a commander, which we haven't seen much of.

 

Which also gives me a thought for Phase 1: we should really see the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus interact. I suspect we might see this in canon for Horus' Primarch book, given the trend of adapting Forge World campaigns for Primarch books, but I think it would be nice to have some crossover in the lead-up to the Heresy. I'd actually depict Loken and Torgaddon's time out of Horus' favour as an unspoken exile, with them deployed elsewhere and possibly fighting the Interex in particular. This might be a good time to bring in the Iron Hands.

 

And on that note, if you really want to twist the knife with the betrayal and not paint the loyalists as dummies, they should be welcomed back with open arms at the start of Isstvan III, not threats and hostility.

[Roomsky]

Thousand Sons – John  French

POV Marine: Atharva (without plot powers)

The Arc: *laughs in Tzeentch*

 

1. At the height of the Great Crusade, Magnus meets with Jaghatai Khan and Sanguinius to form and formalize the Librarius. With the blessings of Malcador and the Emperor, a codex on psychic practice is distributed throughout the legions, in most cases increasing the effectiveness of their psykers tremendously. Magnus dismisses Russ and Mortarion’s objections as brotherly rivalry, and is convinced The Thousand Sons are looked up to by the other legions due to their enlightened mien. Atharva works with Ahriman to find a permanent solution to the flesh change, as more cases are occurring. Magnus dismisses these as not out of the ordinary for the frequency of psychic activity. When Magnus is called to Nikea, he is blindsided that any would find his actions legitimately concerning. During the trial, Mortarion and Russ are at peak aggression, while others give an impassioned defense. Magnus admits some uncertainty to Lorgar, who convinces him its nothing more than a show trial and that he should preach the value of sorcery with as much vehemence as possible. When the Emperor passes his verdict, the legion returns to Prospero in shame.

 

2. Despite Nikea’s edict, Magnus continues to scry the future for a path that will unrestrict psychic use once again. Ahriman, meanwhile, finds that incidents of the flesh change are not decreasing despite reduced psychic practice. In his search, Magnus discovers Horus’ treachery is nearly inevitable. The warp grows turbulent around Prospero, and Magnus’ astropaths are proven unreliable as he attempts to contact Horus, with most of his choir dying horribly. He conducts a ritual to simultaneously warn the Emperor and prove the value of sorcery, but in doing so blasts a hole in the Emperor’s webway project. Magnus believes he was able to transmit his message, but was quickly repelled by the Emperor’s psychic power. He feels diminished after the attempt, and can no longer see the future. The Wolves arrive and The Razing of Prospero begins, all communication attempts to the Wolves returning only animalistic snarling. Feeling betrayed by brother and father, Magnus does all he can to defend his world, but Russ’ forces are overwhelming. Magnus’ physical body is shattered by Russ, and he uses his physical death as the center of a ritual to teleport his legion to safety on the Planet of Sorcerers.

 

3. With their warships left behind at Prospero, the Thousand Sons are limited to sorcery for travel to and from their new home. The Eye of Terror disrupts all attempts at astropathy, and the legion is unaware if they even occupy space-time any longer. What is left of Magnus is dying, there are large gaps in his memory and his own power is eating away at his unstable soul. Ahriman and Atharva take a portal to Prospero’s ruins to search for the Magnus shard left behind, and encounter a small force of Word Bearers, led by Zardu Layak. Layak assists Atharva in retrieving the Magnus shard and Ahriman in sifting through what remains of Magnus’ library for assistance with the flesh change. Layak states that Horus has turned traitor but has not yet moved on Terra, and that Russ has thrown in with him. Ahriman and Atharva return to the planet of Sorcerers and stabilize Magnus, though he still lacks his future sight. Layak’s statements are repeated, and the legion is divided over whether they want revenge on the Emperor, or are still loyal. Magnus convinces himself and some of the naysayers that Russ must have slipped the leash at Prospero, and that it is not too late to save his legion in the eyes of his father. Privately, he admits he believes another shard remains on Terra, the key to his lost precognition. He is the focal point of another ritual, his most impressive feat: to move his entire thousand sons remaining to Terra in aid of the Emperor. They arrive on Terra amidst the Siege, scattered. Their arrival causes catastrophic disruption to the loyalist formations and infrastructure, and they are fired upon instantly. Magnus realizes his hubris has been a lever used against him from the start, and that the fhe's been Tzeentch's unwitting pawn all along. He returns to the Planet of Sorcerers with his unscattered sons, defeated. The stubbornly traitorous elements arrived cleanly amidst Horus' forces, and generally take up arms against the palace walls. Atharva, meeting again with Layak, chooses survival over principle, and joins in the attack.

 

-

 

Behold, the legion I had the least ideas about what to do with. I find the story of the Thousand Sons (Nikea to Prospero) quite compelling, but honestly I’ve never really liked them as characters. On top of that, there are a million ways to take them: Do they peace out of the Heresy and start their own adventures in the Eye of Terror? Are they vengeful traitors? Mislead loyalists? Some combination of the two? I ultimately settled on the latter because it’s the most open-ended and diverse option for future stories.

 

Magnus is intelligent, charismatic, and powerful; he maxed every stat besides having your head out of your own ass. Magnus doesn’t see that there are knives at his back, and doesn’t even entertain the idea he’s being strung along until it’s too late. Any argument one throws at him he can take apart, provide a far more compelling reason to stay the course, and make you feel just a little stupid for even bringing it up. This usually doesn’t rub the wrong way, Magnus’ habit of assuming everyone is a dumber version of himself makes him a master of empathy, but Crusade Magnus doesn’t hate any of his brothers; it’s alien to him that he would be hated in turn. Not seeing the forest for the trees is his Achilles heel, and by the end of the series it’s destroyed everything he loves. This provides motivation going forward for his continued opposition to Ahriman’s efforts: he can’t see where things will lead, but knows that no matter how promising a prize is, it's probably Tzeentch who put it there. Better to sit in your tower all day/ year/ millennium than be used.

 

To be clear, Magnus’ future sight is being :cussed with from the start. In theory, he’s better at it than any of his seers, but Magnus reaches so far into the warp it’s easier for Tzeentch to make false visions look convincing. Come the third book, Magnus has lost that surety he once had through prophecy; his decisions become rash and his decision making process is suddenly missing a step. It's one of the reasons he's so adamant about sorcery: the utility is potentially galaxy-saving. There is no bad knowledge to Magnus or his Sons, and sorcery opens up so many useful doors. Losing things like sith lightning is a minor irritant by comparison.

 

Atharva is the Thousand Sons centrist, both in ability and in opinion. He has some talent with all the disciplines of the legion, but barely approaches even average skill within those specializations. This is a double-edged sword, he can thrive in any situation and doesn’t get drawn in by cult rivalries, but he also can’t engage with his brothers in the same ways they can with each other. This leaves him taking the middle road in most conflicts. Approaching the push for Terra his desire for revenge is just as potent as his need for redemption, but by this point the Thousand Sons have been put through so much trauma he’s beginning to lean into apathy, the middle path is no longer sensible, it's easy. When he understands precisely how screwed they are on Terra, he can’t even bring himself to lash out against Layak for deceiving him; moving forward is the only option that remains.

 

Ahriman here is viewed as something of a talented eccentric. None of his brothers can deny his ability but they find his obsession with the flesh change mildly concerning. His comradeship with Atharva is thanks to the latter's outsider perspective, hes wary, but never quick to dismiss opposing viewpoints. I’d have him feature in the epilogue to the final book, calling a defeated Magnus out on staying wilfully blind to the world burning around him, and that he won’t make the same mistake.

 

A nuance that doesn’t really come across in the summaries is that I think an ambiguity to Magnus’ position is the most interesting angle on things. Yes, Magnus took Tzeentch’s bait, but so did Russ, and possibly even the Emperor; who can say what drove him to keep his Webway project a secret? The Thousand Sons view the warp as something that, with enough understanding, can be contained completely; they absolutely would have been the most powerful force in opposition to Chaos if the Wolves hadn’t put them to rout. Perhaps Magnus was doomed because he gazed too far into the warp, or perhaps it was because his opponents gazed into it not at all. It is the legion’s hubris that lays it low, not its psychic practice.

[b1soul]

"Feeling betrayed by brother and father, Magnus does all he can to defend his world, but Russ’ forces are overwhelming."

 

If this were the case, I don't think the forces brought by Russ would be sufficient to be "overwhelming".

 

Magnus would have the defender's advantage on top of all-out psychic/sorcerous shenanigans. I think Prospero would probably be the VIth's graveyard and maybe the XVth's as well.

[Roomsky]

"Feeling betrayed by brother and father, Magnus does all he can to defend his world, but Russ’ forces are overwhelming."

 

If this were the case, I don't think the forces brought by Russ would be sufficient to be "overwhelming".

 

Magnus would have the defender's advantage on top of all-out psychic/sorcerous shenanigans. I think Prospero would probably be the VIth's graveyard and maybe the XVth's as well.

 

Perhaps, but I don't think it's hard to explain away. Valdor and the Sisters have anti-psychic weapons and tech. Much of the Thousand Sons were away for further compliances. The Thousand Sons are a small legion even before getting yiffed. Magnus was unknowingly weakened by breaching the Emperor's wards. The legion's tutelaries turn violently against them. Orbital supremacy is treated realistically as 90% of what you need to take a world, etc. I plot more in terms of events and character moments, but I'm sure a believable battle plan could be drawn up with more time.

 

But I generally agree that an angry Magnus should be able to turn Russ inside-out, I just like the shards plot.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Roomsky

[bluntblade]

My preference for resolving that issue would be that Russ has protections in place from his Rune Priests, as that's a method we've seen elsewhere. Russ has, it seems, the same kind of psychic latency as the Khan, and that could also be apparent to the Thousand Sons. 

I also find that the TSons are difficult beyond tidying up Prospero. That said, we also have the untapped resource of those who weren't on the homeworld at the time. Possibly I'd follow two of the scattered fleets as they get caught up in parallel struggles but on opposite sides of the war. One flees an Alpha Legion hunting force to Ultramar where, if we're doing a stripped-down Imperium Secundus where the emphasis is on politicking, Sanguinius vouches for them (am I throwing a bone to the Blood Raven fans? Maybe). The other are attacked by Loyalist forces and ultimately sojourn to Sortarius, becoming another voice in the camp arguing for vengeance against the Emperor. Heck, you could even have Khayon and a handful of others presented to them by the Traitors.

Edited May 10, 2020 by bluntblade

[Bobss]

"Feeling betrayed by brother and father, Magnus does all he can to defend his world, but Russ’ forces are overwhelming."

 

If this were the case, I don't think the forces brought by Russ would be sufficient to be "overwhelming".

 

Magnus would have the defender's advantage on top of all-out psychic/sorcerous shenanigans. I think Prospero would probably be the VIth's graveyard and maybe the XVth's as well.

 

Which would convincingly knock both Legions out of the Horus Heresy, removing the need for unconvincing and unnecessary additions like Russ returning to Terra pre-Siege and embarking on the Wolf Cull, or the Sons going to Terra to pick up a mcguffin mcmuffin shipment. After their near-obliteration, the XVth are able to contribute almost nothing to the war effort but the aid of a few pro-Horus/anti-Emperor enthusiasts, mainly in the form of their sorceress prowess (see Ahriman's MVP achievements in the Siege of Terra thus far). Likewise the VIth are reduced to a Shattered Legion-like fighting force, but with i. the benefit of a (focused) Primarch and ii. more unity and purpose than the Dropsite survivors and are of no real importance until throwing their lot in at Beta-Garmon. Some Legions are more important early, mid or late-Heresy, while others are important throughout. That is totally a-okay and fans insistence on their boys and their gene-daddy being important throughout and never be portrayed to be inferior is an annoying handicap to say the least (Raven Guard)

 

In regards to how the powuh levelz of this checks out, Roomsky has made it clear in his retelling that some Legions are simply better than others at certain aspects of war - perfectly illustrated with how a single Night Lord, with enough time, could bring an entire world into compliance (they really, really could), but lose out handily in sweeping ground and fleet engagements to the Dark Angels. While the Wolves may lack the finer arts of warfare exhibited by the Thousand Sons and their Orders/Cults, the Wolves will quite simply not think twice about storming a dangerous breach or engaging a ring of heavily-defended gun platforms, heedless of losses and advancing with a dogged tenacity and loyalty to Russ and the Allfather that other Legions would and do find reckless (this is what I believe Dan Abnett tried/succeeded/failed to get across about the 'Emperor's Executioners' before anti-Wolves fans and Warhammer lore power level experts took over but I digress...) The Wolves aren't a bunch of dumb Orks, they're aware of the risks beneath the braggadocio, but things like loyalty, unity, brotherhood and remembrance make them more brave/heedless than the rest, on both a genetic and a cultural level. Do I believe almost the entire VI Legion + fleet + Talons elements could crack Prospero? Yeah, but they are going to face quite literally irreparable damage. After this one cheeky battle Prospero is ashes and the Fang will never, ever be full again. That's how significant and bloodying this battle should be - not just 'yeah they had a scrap and 50k Wolves died and went on to do other things.' No mate, the Battle of Prospero is/should be literally graveyard-tier in my opinion

 

It's also worth mentioning that (in my opinion) McNeill heavily whitewashed Magnus and the Thousand Sons in A Thousand Sons with things like the Sons kinda/half taking their beating or Magnus being promised strength by Tzeentch to crush the Reprisal Fleet as being pretty w*nky. Look no further than McNeill's whitewashed Perturabo in Angel Exterminatus who is a total bro painting models and playing Total War games with his sons Vs. other, truer, more accurate portrayals of Perturabo's genius being tempered by his tantrums. I know people who take a dump on The Crimson Fist simply because John French's Perturabo wasn't Graham McNeill's Perturabo, when that novella is absolutely wonderful and feels like pure, undiluted early-Heresy goodness

Edited May 10, 2020 by Bobss

[bluntblade]

To be honest, I think that's also a product of the longer timeline, and I prefer the Wolves taking several body blows (albeit with a period where they've got back to the Imperium and are on the frontlines for years, building to a confrontation with Horus at Beta Garmon). It just seems more sensible too that the Wolves would bring substantial back-up in order to crack Prospero's defences.

 

I've had some thoughts about the early books and the road to Isstvan III, especially the gaps in False Gods and Galaxy In Flames. If you want to emphasise Loken and Torgaddon being out of favour, then I'm inclined to depict them being effectively exiled, which could be a good opportunity to bring in Ferrus or Fulgrim. I agree with some other posters that Isstvan III should really have been covered more thoroughly, and I think we could've done with more build-up for Legions besides the Luna Wolves.

 

And something to reflect the respect Ferrus has for Horus, and the ruthless qualities which would make him an effective right hand.

Edited May 10, 2020 by bluntblade

[Rob P]

Having read post 1 and not any other posts, I think the first sign of bloat was Descent of Angels.

 

Even keeping 1-5 pretty much the same, I reckon they could have conflated a few bits but still kept the general arcs.

 

Scrap

- all of the Vulkan story from the main line

- all of Imperium Secundus including Betrayer, but keep Know No Fear

- all anthologies and novellas

 

 

- Keep Mechanicum, Scars, Buried Dagger and Fear to Tread

- Keep Prospero duology

- Combine key points of Legion and Praetorian of Dorn

- Combine key plot points of Vengeful Spirit, Master of Mankind, First Heretic and Slaves to Darkness into a nature of chaos duology

 

I reckon about 15 books + siege

 

Rest could have been 'Tales of heresy' line

[bluntblade]

I am very aware that I'm keeping the sprawl, but hopefully giving it more purpose.

[b1soul]

Yes, some legions are better at the certain types of warfare. The Wolves would be better at close combat than the Sons

 

...but invading the psychic legion's homeworld with a dug-in defense and a committed Magnus. I don't see how their edge in close combat or shock assault is going to overwhelm the defenders. Yeah, the Talons are there, but not in sufficient numbers to make this an "overwhelming" victory. At best, it's going to be a two-sided bloodbath, which would conveniently side-line the Wolves as well. After Alaxxes, they'd be effectively removed from the table and we wouldn't need the Wolfsbane silliness.

[bluntblade]

I mean, if they've got Army support and such, that can deal with the defences.

 

There is also the factor of Legions using accelerated implantation to make up their losses, which is definitely something I'd emphasise. 

[b1soul]

Prospero has its own defence fleet, defence platforms, and ground fortifications. To crack a fortified position, you typically want multiple attackers per each defender. In a Legion on Legion conflict, Army will only make a difference if they're present in huge numbers with lots of heavy ordinance (e.g. superheavies and heavy artillery). The Prosperine Guard were rightly portrayed as largely useless against the SW and Custodes.

 

I think Prospero Burns handles this smartly by acknowledging that a committed TSons defence would have gutted both Legions, but Magnus' martyr complex results in a wounded but still functional VIth and an almost-eliminated XVth. Russ is sent to cow and apprehend, not to execute, so he's going in with impressive but not an optimal razing force.

[bluntblade]

I'm mostly OK with that - I would have Russ packing extensive auxiliary elements, but he holds them back both because he wants to do his peacefully if possible and because he considers this an inter-Legion matter.

Just realised the Legion I'm shortest of ideas for is the Alpha Legion, not the Thousand Sons.

[Roomsky]

@b1soul - For me, when comparing possible scenarios I find "Space Wolves lose half their legion, then escape by the skin of their teeth at Alaxxes" more plausible than "Space Wolves are reduced to a similar size to the Tsons (~1000), and then somehow survive Alaxxes." Remember, this is a timeline where Horus' advance on Terra is quite rapid after the Dropsite Massacre. He'd have no reason not to send overkill to Alaxxes if it means ending Russ then and there. I don't know if I buy the dregs fleeing from their legion's graveyard making any escape from a trap laid by the Alpha Legion. To each their own, of course.

 

@bluntblade - I'm surprised, I think 3 books borders on too few for the Alphas. The legion civil war idea's got legs.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Roomsky

[bluntblade]

I used the wrong phrase - it's not a lack of ideas, but I haven't got a single strong idea for them except for delving into the Legion's civil war. I think I'd give them the biggest change, with a story after Isstvan V which gets in amongst them to explore their internal politics and collective headspace.

[Fedor]

Just a few observations...

 

The Wolves were never supposed to be all but destroyed on Prospero in the original 2nd edition heresy lore that serves as the framework that Visions expanded on, nor were they in that. The Thousand Sons were also on Terra from 2nd Ed, though i don't remember is getting any idea of their overall strength there.

 

McNeill definitely stays away from depicting any notable flaws in Perturabo in his work on him so far, favouring two scenarios where he can go down the misunderstood/neglected genius route but i don't agree that French's take was the "true" or more faithful one. The idea of Perturabo having rages/tantrums or being so ruthless to the point of decimating his own men was nowhere in the original Index Astartes lore...we were basically given the quick outline of a somewhat cold and detached technical savant that struggled to befriend his brothers and became worn down and bitter as the Crusade went on because of all the repetitive siege and garrison deployments.

 

Pert in crimson fist was very much French's own expansion on the character, same as Graham, only the two focused on different potential areas for that expansion to an exaggerated degree. More understandable for French as he was writing a battle story novella and not a full novel.Then Haley seemed to opt for a reconciliation of the two in his Primarchs book. I think French also worked on the Iron Warriors forgeworld lore, but i'm not sure on the extent of that.

[bluntblade]

That interpretation of Perturabo was, it should be mentioned, developed by French in concert with Alan Bligh.

 

What does anyone reckon should happen with Vulkan? 

Edited May 10, 2020 by bluntblade

[Roomsky]

Here we are at the big guy himself. His names' on the event so he and his legion get two trilogies. This is the closest I can provide to the idea of a "core series."

 

Sons of Horus I – Dan Abnett

POV Marines: Garviel Loken, Horus Aximand

The Arc: Something quite similar to Horus Rising through Galaxy in Flames, but with Horus’ development both slowed down and expanded. While there is growing resentment throughout for both the Emperor and for the Administratum, he is mostly taking extreme measures to build, in his mind, a more proactive Imperium. The signs of corruption do start cropping up as things develop, to the dismay of Loken. Aximand is Loken’s foil, choosing to fight for a status quo that no longer exists.

 

1. Open on Ullanor with the defeat of the greenskins, Horus is named Warmaster. Cut forward to events similar to Horus Rising, with the battle(s) on Murder moved forward to a proper war with the Interex, which is in this case facilitated by Erebus pushing on both sides. By the end, Horus remains optimistic but fears the Great Crusade will not regain its lustre. Erebus steals the Murder Sword.

 

2. Essentially False Gods, playing up Horus’ frustration with Imperial bureaucracy, and after a greater time-skip. Temba injures Horus on Davin with the Murder Sword, and once the apothecaries have failed to make progress, Erebus directs them to the serpent lodge. Horus is visited by neither Erebus nor Magnus, instead communing with the Chaos Gods in benevolent guise, antagonizing the Emperor and preying on Horus’ insecurities about the Imperium’s direction. When he is unsure, they bring focus to his past failures, blaming Imperial policy for the failure with the Interex, something which haunts him even now. It becomes his personal goal to become a more decisive leader. He returns to his sons re-energized. Erebus is brought into confidence with Horus along with his Mournival, and he begins running the Lodge meetings.

 

3. Horus decides the astartes cannot afford to be bound up in Imperial law to effectively unify the galaxy. He proposes to seize further autonomy by force, but only plans to start a civil war if necessary. While well-composed in public, Horus is more volatile behind closed doors, and feels betrayed that some legionnaires and staff are not embracing his plan of action. He orchestrates The Battle of Isstvan III, but is reluctant to begin the bombings right up until they begin, Erebus continuing his nudging all the while. Loken works with Tarvitz to coordinate a resistance on the planets’ surface, Aximand and Abaddon lead kill squads to break it apart. Aximand duels Torgaddon, losing a chunk of his face before decapitating him. Loken is handily taken apart by Abaddon, spitting in the first captain’s face before dying definitively on his chainblade. Aximand recovers in the apothecarian, stunned things have changed so quickly. Horus, upon reflection, has caught on to Erebus’ role on Davin, and gives him the Murder Sword before sending him back to his legion. He is not welcome to return.

 

 

Sons of Horus II – Dan Abnett

POV Marines: Argonis, Horus Aximand

The Arc: The Sons of Horus marines are convinced that the warp is a tool, rather than a manipulator. Horus is consequently becoming a black hole of charisma, the legion is reaching ever greater feats but is all but dependent on Horus’ presence. Aximand, ever reflecting on his betrayed brothers, remains somewhat independent. Upon Horus’ death, the legion breaks, and the few that try to maintain the momentum of the Siege are left without support.

 

1. The Great Slaughter at Beta Garmon begins, the legion has embraced a more savage image since we saw them at Isstvan III (Cthonian Svagery TM). Horus directs the war and exhibits all the best traits of the Pantheon. Argonis has taken over as unofficial equerry, as Maloghurst acts more as a medium for wide-scale warp sorcery.  Aximand leads one of countless missions coordinated by the Warmaster to speed an inevitable victory. Aximand is confused as to the purpose of his missions on the surface, as they seem aimless beyond minor disruption. He also reflects on the brothers lost throughout the Heresy, name dropping the Sons of Horus killed in other series. It is revealed a plan to detonate numerous cyclonics throughout the system is being implemented by the Mechanicus, hoping the planetary fragments will disrupt the fleet after so many resources have been wasted on the surface. Horus arrives in person to disable the bombs and kill the conspirators, to the jubilation of his men. Abaddon threatens violence at any who would gainsay the Warmaster.

 

2. Horus musters the traitors not already present at Beta Garmon, and Mortarion is sent ahead of the fleet as a “vanguard.” A council is held after he departs, where Horus reveals that he, Lorgar, and Typhon have conspired to bring about Mortarion’s fall to Nurgle. A plan is outlined to penetrate the orbital defenses without him, with Perturabo given acting command. The Solar War begins, with Argonis Horus’ representative in Perturabo’s command room. Aximand leads his troops from the front, dueling and killing Boreas. He returns to the Vengeful Spirit and meets with Maloghurst, who like Horus is the focal point of many warp shenanigans. He says his time is coming soon, and Aximand is struck by how eagerly so many of his brothers are willing to die for Horus’ plans. He is forced to admit that victory must come first, however. Once the fleet reaches Terran orbit, Maloghurst gives his life to briefly limit The Emperor’s psychic influence. Horus rises from his throne to take command of the traitor forces, and the invasion begins.

 

3. Argonis returns to Horus’ side, now officially the Warmaster’s equerry. Argonis realizes that Horus has become a skin suit for the Chaos Gods, but before he can voice these complaints Horus’ glamour pulls him in to the same happy slavery Maloghurst demonstrated. As the Siege of Terra's progress begins to slow, Horus lowers the shields to the Vengeful Spirit to lure the Emperor into a confrontation. Aximand is given fleet command, and Argonis accompanies Horus to fight the Emperor, but is killed by Valdor. Horus dispatches Sanguinius with contemptuous ease, and the Justaerin gun down the Sanguinary Guard to a man. The climactic duel is surprisingly mundane, the Emperor exerting all his psychic will in an attempt to push back the Chaos Gods’ influence and allow his son to reassert control, while Horus’ powers are devoted to combating this. Similar to Wolfsbane, the closest to success he manages sees Horus proper reassert his defiance and deliver a near lethal blow. At the same time, The Emperor refocuses his power into a psychic lance that drives the Gods from Horus’ body. He destroys what remains of his son’s soul soon after, denying it to Chaos before falling himself. Seeing this, Abaddon snaps, and orders the fleet into full retreat. Aximand confronts him, insisting they keep their orbital supremacy, as Guilliman has not yet arrived. Abaddon runs him through as he did Loken, and opens fire on any traitor ships that attempt to hinder their progress. The Sons’ retreat dooms the traitors still in orbit.

 

-

 

Yeah so I'm not covering things like Isstvan V here, plenty of that is seen in other books and narratively it's just another demonstration of Horus' prowess. Throw in a reference to Molech if you like, but I'm honestly not a fan of the magic door. Horus is the conduit for the Pantheon and is surrounded by increasingly competent sorcerers, he doesn't need more than that to match one minor golden warp entity.

 

Horus' character gets the most focus in the first trilogy, as a great leader who feels fettered by the laws he must operate in. He feels something like the paranoia shown in False Gods, sure, but his major frustration is the pressure of being Warmaster compounded by walking on eggshells with the Lex. He's ambitious, but not arrogant, and even after orchestrating the Isstvan Atrocity he remains unsure whether this is the course he should be taking. That said, he is never shown to be indecisive, he ruminates over the weight of his responsibility but it doesn't slow him down. This Horus shows only brief glimpses of outside influence by the end of the third book, which is juxtaposed by the start of the fourth.

 

Even with a compressed timeline, this is a big gap and is meant to contrast the new Warmaster. He doesn't engage like he used to, yet everyone is more preoccupied with bowing and scraping. He appears friendly and inspiring, but there are gaps in his memory that never would have occurred before; it becomes ambiguous if Horus is even alive at this point. Like the Emperor, he has become a sort of miniature Chaos God, faith in Horus empowers his troops, and most give into this easily. Abaddon becomes the most extreme case, Horus' mortal champion if you will. There's no teasing about Abaddon's future, and nor is he the quivering rage monster we see in the novels. Abaddon has completely unshakable faith in his master and his power, pulling off feats unheard of even for marines in the field and at times seems to act as an extension of Horus' will even without the two communicating. When Horus falls, Abaddon is completely spiritually broken, it would be like St. Celestine watching The Emperor die.

 

Abaddon isn't the only one negatively effected by this, however. The Emperor's psychic attack is the greatest wound the Gods of Chaos will ever take. They've never known pain, nor have they even engaged with the possibility of mortality. When the Emperor strikes a blow to them in Horus, however minor or temporary it may be, they flee immediately. The smaller daemons across Terra melt, the most corrupted of the traitors become feeble, psykers explode and fearless forces are put to rout. With the head removed, the snake dies.

 

Aximand begins the tale with not a doubt in his mind, and ends questioning if he's the only sane man left. He takes Loken and Torgaddon's "betrayal" poorly, and it's a brotherhood he can never recover. Until Isstvan III he idolizes Horus to a degree that rivals Abaddon, this may be why he notices the changes in his master as time goes on. He engaged with Horus in a way Abaddon did not, and while it meant an equal fervor to see him restored on Davin, it also means he notices that Horus eventually starts acting rather like someone who closely studied the primarch rather than the man himself. Even so, Aximand is hardly immune to Horus' warp-born charisma, the presence of doubt is as far as he gets. As with the Imperium, those who prioritized their master's vision over his cult of personality get the axe. His death mirrors Loken's, and he merely states that Abaddon has doomed them to an eternity of futility.

 

Loken is much as we see him in Horus Rising, with more ambiguity throughout False Gods as to which side he'll take. I do think a surviving Loken can work, but it certainly didn't in the novels and I prefer him dying on Isstvan in any case. He doesn't give Abaddon any lasting wounds, but if I'd hope he delivers a final line on the level of Sigismund's to Abaddon. Like Loken, the important Remembrancers are present and escape as well as to crop up in other stories. Horus has the remaining artists made serfs and servitors rather than murdering them outright.

 

Argonis too is much as he is in the novels, a figure separate from the Mournival is quite useful to cover the necessary scenes. Through him we see the totality of Horus' dominance that doesn't manifest for Aximand, he's as blindingly powerful and captivating as the Emperor by that point.

 

Maloghurst dies letting Horus get off a chair because it's contractually obliged at this point.

 

I've tried to play up Chaos' more subtle attributes throughout these and the XVI are no exception. Obviously Horus himself is hardly subtle, but legionaries aren't yet sprouting horns or tentacles. The Sons think Chaos is as much a tool as the warp is to Librarians, it requires some care but is just an amplifier to their power. They collect trophies from their enemies because they're creatures bred for pride in war. Abaddon doesn't realize how they've been played until much later, because its rare that any of the legion see obvious adverse effects.

 

I wanted some homage to the Emperor's affection for his son, as well as his cold utilitarianism. The Emperor is trying to reach Horus, to spark the age old trope of the possessed fighting back against what's directing them. The purpose of this is ambiguous, he may be trying to create an opening for a final blow, or he may believe his beloved Horus can be saved, we don't see into his head. Horus confirms himself that he's too far gone, which sparks the suicide attack. Ollanius can be present and die I suppose, but he's hardly the nail in that coffin.

 

And finally, most importantly, the spear thrust isn't used as a metaphor every 6 seconds.

[b1soul]

My point is just that Prospero is a clear SW victory...so we'd need to justify why, in the absence of a large numerical disparity, the defending TSons are almost wiped out and the attacking SW lose "merely" half their men at most. Attacking is a lot harder than defending.

 

I don't think the presence of the Talons alone is sufficient justification if Magnus is committed to defending. So a lot of heavy support in the form of (a) plentiful Army heavy artillery and superheavies on the ground and (b) additonal non-SW capital vessels in space is probably a good substitute for Magnus' sabotage of home defences.

[bluntblade]

My point is just that Prospero is a clear SW victory...so we'd need to justify why, in the absence of a large numerical disparity, the defending TSons are almost wiped out and the attacking SW lose "merely" half their men at most. Attacking is a lot harder than defending.

 

I don't think the presence of the Talons alone is sufficient justification if Magnus is committed to defending. So a lot of heavy support in the form of (a) plentiful Army heavy artillery and superheavies on the ground and (b) additonal non-SW capital vessels in space is probably a good substitute for Magnus' sabotage of home defences.

I'd go with the Wolves' destroyers and such being involved in that - and possibly some Titans too - but also emphasising Russ's importance and the fact that his counterpart isn't in the field.

[b1soul]

I'm getting a bit lost, if Magnus is committed to killing the invaders (or killing as many of them as he can), why is he not on the field? Thought we were talking about the scenario where Magnus' attitude is the opposite of his martyr complex in actual lore.

[DarkChaplain]

I like that over all, though I'm still somewhat oblivious to why Argonis seems so popular.

 

Beyond that, there's one semi-major point I'm not too happy with: Horus, in the first trilogy, seems conflicted. Ruthless when he thinks he needs to be, but conflicted. The second trilogy fast forwards, of course, but the reveal of him becoming a Chaos Pantheon Sockpuppet *might* end up robbing him of agency in his betrayal somewhat.

 

To me, Horus needs to make a conscious choice to submit to Chaos, one way or another. Not entirely forced, not simply hollowed out and replaced, but choosing to go along with their whispers based on his own feelings, fears and vanity. At the Serpent Lodge, he communes with the powers-that-be, but at that point, their true intentions are supposedly unclear, or rather benevolent. But in the end, they're not, not at all, and I think before being worn like a paper bag over the Pantheon's head, Horus needs to fully grasp the malevolence of the Gods and willingly throw in his lot with them and against the Emperor, knowing and understanding what it will mean for his Legion and the galaxy/humanity. He cannot go into the final stages of the war or indeed the Siege while still being deceived or oblivious to the big meta game. Even if the gods suppress his own will before the end, I wouldn't want them drowning out his sense of self and using him as a marionette used as a way to argue that "Horus wasn't evil" or that he was "not himself". I'm good with him having a moment of unblemished clarity and a hint of redemption, Vader-Anakin-like, right before the end, but I still want it to be clear that he chose that path of his own accord, and not just because he believed in the lies of his 4 crazy uncles.

[Bobss]

Abaddon threatens violence at any who would gainsay the Warmaster

 

Yes, this is very important. Abaddon should be Horus' Number #1 Fanboy right up until the moment he finds his genefather's blasted and hollowed-out corpse. I don't know what the Black Library team have hoped to achieve by ramping up the foreshadowing to Abaddon's greatness, but it has done nothing for his character development to be quite frankly honest. What makes Abaddon such a rich character is the breadth of his history and the multiple character arcs he undergoes. Abaddon is not The Chosen One (although I appreciate the warp and prophecy/time work in weird and wacky ways!); he is one of several 'Chosen One's who have distinguished themselves in the shoals of blood post-Siege. He is the biggest and the baddest shark out of all the big, bad sharks which is what ADB tried to show us with characters like Thagus Daravek who were a pretty-big-thing themselves during the Legion Wars. After all, the opening trilogy of the Black Legion series is their origins, their rise and their ascendancy, cementing themselves as the bane of the Imperium after the First Black Crusade. From heroes to zeroes to 'heroes' again if you will

 

I like to imagine Abaddon as this rough-and-ready captain of a college football team. He's popular, he's ferocious and he's a bit boneheaded, but still not without an underlying shrewdness. His dad also happens to be the state's governor and is tipped to become President one day. On his last day of college during his final game before he makes the NFL big time, he discovers his dad has been busted by an FBI sting-op years in the making, and Horus either sentenced for life or silenced by the underworld he once illicitly liaised with. Abaddon is also tainted by association and loses everything - even going to prison himself for some minor crime later on. During his prisontime, he is mocked and targeted for being a richboy and the pampered son of a disgraced former governor, but as the months grind into years, he hardens himself and begins to use the same charisma and strength he once possessed to not just survive the underworld, but to thrive in it. He learns how to manipulate people of different circumstances and creeds, he learns the value of drugs in controlling other human beings, but stays away from the stuff himself, and he knows when to use or avoid absolute violence on his rivals and his own followers. When he leaves the facility he is not only the chief shotcaller, but he has also developed an extensive network of trafficking and trade both in and out of prison, statewide and eventually nationwide. He inspires loyalty in his gangmembers through sheer strength of will, purity of purpose and most importantly: winning. Abaddon's gang is as militant as they come and don't suffer (open) fools or (open) deviants - but attracts people from a whole cross-section of society due to their inclusiveness, their structure and the fact they win, a lot. No matter what you come for, as long as you adhere to Abaddon's cutthroat codes of conduct, you will one day get what you want, be is money, drugs, sex or power. As Abaddon and his goons begin to go up against other, bigger gangs and more serious forms of law enforcement he realises that he is not so different to his father after all, but unlike his 'weak' father he will never lose and will die a happy man with his dreams accomplished... one day...

 

The Black Legion books have taken a routine beating by the Siege of Terra series simply for adhering to older accounts of the battle. That isn't to say you can't enjoy both products at the same time, of course, but things like the clumsy Abaddon foreshadowing, the insistence on painting Horus as a loser before he falls/fails, the obliteration of the Sons of Horus' high command mid-way through the siege, the Emperor's Children being decimated themselves despite ruling the first half of the Legion Wars are beginning to feel like one big non-sequitur

Edited May 11, 2020 by Bobss