Hypothetical Horus Heresy Series

[bluntblade]

I wonder if Praetorian of Dorn could actually come out of an internal struggle in the Alpha Legion. So Alpharius takes back control and tries to assert his primacy by going through with a scheme Omegon had come to view as madness.

 

And follow it up with a novel or novella in the aftermath of his death. Hydra Scindere or something.

 

Edit: just realised you could invert the old meaning of "I am Alpharius" in an intra-Legion conflict and I like it.

Edited May 11, 2020 by bluntblade

[Roomsky]

 

Beyond that, there's one semi-major point I'm not too happy with: Horus, in the first trilogy, seems conflicted. Ruthless when he thinks he needs to be, but conflicted. The second trilogy fast forwards, of course, but the reveal of him becoming a Chaos Pantheon Sockpuppet *might* end up robbing him of agency in his betrayal somewhat.

 

To me, Horus needs to make a conscious choice to submit to Chaos, one way or another. Not entirely forced, not simply hollowed out and replaced, but choosing to go along with their whispers based on his own feelings, fears and vanity. At the Serpent Lodge, he communes with the powers-that-be, but at that point, their true intentions are supposedly unclear, or rather benevolent. But in the end, they're not, not at all, and I think before being worn like a paper bag over the Pantheon's head, Horus needs to fully grasp the malevolence of the Gods and willingly throw in his lot with them and against the Emperor, knowing and understanding what it will mean for his Legion and the galaxy/humanity. He cannot go into the final stages of the war or indeed the Siege while still being deceived or oblivious to the big meta game. Even if the gods suppress his own will before the end, I wouldn't want them drowning out his sense of self and using him as a marionette used as a way to argue that "Horus wasn't evil" or that he was "not himself". I'm good with him having a moment of unblemished clarity and a hint of redemption, Vader-Anakin-like, right before the end, but I still want it to be clear that he chose that path of his own accord, and not just because he believed in the lies of his 4 crazy uncles.

 

Yes, good point. I got a similar impression after a few reads, I suppose that is why an event like Molech can be useful. Given the current framework, what do you think of this amendment to book 4:

 

Prologue: Horus meets with his equerry (Maloghurst or Argonis, pick your poison). They both reflect on the changes he's undergone since the endeavor began, how a desire for operative freedom has spiraled so quickly into open war. Horus acknowledges there is no going back, but there is still a choice to be made. He is mighty, but he doesn't know if it's enough to match The Emperor. The Gods can make the difference, but he doesn't know what will become of him and his legion afterwards. He vows to reflect on this.

 

The Great Slaughter at Beta Garmon begins, the legion has embraced a more savage image since we saw them at Isstvan III (Cthonian Svagery TM). Horus directs the war and exhibits all the best traits of the Pantheon. Argonis has taken over as unofficial equerry, as Maloghurst acts more as a medium for wide-scale warp sorcery.  Aximand leads one of countless missions coordinated by the Warmaster to speed an inevitable victory. Aximand is confused as to the purpose of his missions on the surface, as they seem aimless beyond minor disruption. He also reflects on the brothers lost throughout the Heresy, name dropping the Sons of Horus killed in other series. It is revealed a plan to detonate numerous cyclonics throughout the system is being implemented by the Mechanicus, hoping the planetary fragments will disrupt the fleet after so many resources have been wasted on the surface. Horus arrives in person to disable the bombs and kill the conspirators, to the jubilation of his men. Abaddon threatens violence at any who would gainsay the Warmaster.

 

Epilogue: Horus meets with his equerry, who asks if he's made his choice. Horus responds that there is no choice at all.

 

-

 

The exchange keeps it ambiguous if Horus chose to accept the full extent of Chaos' influence, or if the Gods decided to stop waiting and hijack his body anyway. It's also clearer setup for unclouded Horus to defy the Emperor even when regaining some agency in the finale. 

[bluntblade]

This is part of my reasoning for the Sons having half a book after Isstvan V and leading up to Molech.

[Roomsky]

Another reason I’m not huge on Molech is a product of the extended timeline, the legions become too familiar with the idea of Chaos. Abaddon recognizes that giving yourself to the powers will make you a slave, that they need to be an arms length tool. While Horus is certainly less careful, events like Molech also paint him as someone who believes Chaos is an ally, not an object of devotion. So why then does the primarch fail where the legionary succeeds?

 

I’ve always found it more plausible that the legions and their primarchs don’t realize what’s happening to them until its too late to even engage with the idea. They don’t know anything about Chaos, why would the Gods tip their hand early?

[bluntblade]

Possibly the thing to do would be to have Molech as the outer limit of Solar, and have it happen later on.

[Roomsky]

Time to get controversial.

 

Word Bearers – ADB

POV Marine: Argel Tal, Sorot Tchure

The Arc: Argel Tal realizes too late that Lorgar is a manipulative Sociopath. Sorot Tchure is too much of a manipulative sociopath to realize that Erebus is a manipulative Sociopath.

 

1. Monarchia, pilgrimage through the Eye, Argel Tal becomes a daemon host to Raum, Isstvan V. Largely identical to The First Heretic. It’s made clearer that Erebus’ actions with Horus were meticulously planned by Lorgar. Tchure’s perspective is that of a non-Gal Vorbak Legionary as this transpires, by the end he has made his way into Erebus’ confidence.

 

2. Argel Tal remains with Lorgar as he and the World Eaters attack Nuceria, and becomes the primarch's new favourite. He makes "friends" with Khârn and Lorgar and Angron apparently grow closer. Erebus commands The Battle of Calth with Kor Phaeron and helps start the Ruinstorm. Kor Phaeron is chased off, and Erebus returns to find he’s fallen out of favour. Lorgar assigns him to stall Guilliman, an important and glorious task that will probably get him killed. Argel Tal believes this is a sign Lorgar is jettisoning the negative influences in his council. They travel to Terra with the bulk of the World Eaters.

 

3. Erebus and Tchure lead the Word Bearers splinter fleet against Guilliman, gaining small victories but are quickly overwhelmed by the Primarch. A dejected and indignant Erebus orders the Word Bearers to retreat at the first signs of possible defeat. At The Siege of Terra, Lorgar confides in Argel Tal and outlines his plans: that he tricked Angron into ascension, that he nudged fate to deliver Magnus’ catastrophic arrival at the Siege, and that he colluded with Typhon to deliver Mortarion up to Nurgle. He has seen the paths of the future, and knows Horus and The Emperor will kill each other, or near to it. He plans to take command of Chaos’ forces once Horus is dead, a true and faithful Warmaster. He sends Argel Tal to the planet’s surface as his command on the ground, Lorgar stating he must meditate and influence the warp if all is to go as planned. Argel Tal lands and proceeds to the front, where Raum suddenly and violently consumes his body, swelling to enormous size. In his last conscious moments, Argel Tal realizes he was only another cog in the plan. Erebus returns to the fleet, and sends Tchure to deliver the Murder Sword to Lorgar. Lorgar’s ethereal body is preoccupied with conducting the warp’s song, and when Tchure calls his name to draw his attention, the Murder Sword is pulled through Lorgar’s neck, killing him. Lorgar’s spirit rages in disbelief before his soul is dragged screaming into hell by what remains of Angron, too shocked to see the irony that he too was expendable. Erebus accuses Tchure of murdering the primarch, and has him killed before he can talk. Erebus insists the legion must not know of this, and the lie that Lorgar has gone into deep meditation is born. Erebus leads the fleet for the remainder of the Siege, and organizes the retreat upon Horus’ death.

 

-

 

For all the talk that the Word Bearers are the true architects of the Heresy, they’re more like glorified middlemen. The Chaos Gods made the plan, and Horus was their weapon, Lorgar was merely the go-between. The legion itself never becomes aware of this, the Gods like worship and will allow them to believe in their importance for precisely as long as it suits them.

Lorgar’s fate, though, is all his own. He spends each book manipulating those around him, pushing his brothers and his legion into whatever shape he desires of them. Kor Phaeron was father and council, but cast aside when no longer useful. It is ambiguous if Calth is meant to be the death sentence it was in the novels. Erebus was his instrument against Horus, but was sent on a suicide mission at the first sign of failure. Argel Tal, Angron, Magnus, and Mortarion were all merely seeds from which to grow the means of his own ascendancy. Lorgar would never have been able to rally his brother primarchs before their enslavement to the warp, so of course they must be reshaped. However, by the Siege the Gods have already accomplished their goals, the Webway project is doomed and Horus will (probably) overwhelm the Emperor, so when Lorgar’s constant back stabbing finally comes full circle they have nothing but amused cruelty for their “chosen.” Considering he personally damned Angron to an eternity of pain, I thought he was an appropriate ferryman to that particular underworld.

 

As in the novels, Lorgar is a bit of a worm. He’s got all the charisma, and when necessary, vulnerability he needs to move the pieces on his board. Lorgar is very good at staying nonthreatening when he needs to, and he oozes apparent compassion to precisely the degree those around him need to see. His guise of being easily manipulated is simply getting others to think they had the idea in question. He wanted to be told that his pilgrimage to the Eye was necessary, and he knew exactlywhich of his men would tell him to do so. He has no loyalty and no affection, and his boundless compassion is an act; his soul is the coldest of his brethren.

 

Argel Tal, by contrast, buys Lorgar’s line about “the necessary truth” completely. He never enjoys killing his cousins, and becomes further resigned to their new dark reality as the series progresses. He does have a small seed of pride, however. He’s a firm believer that the best leaders are those who don’t desire the mantle, and takes some satisfaction with his apparent appointment in the final book over Erebus or Kor Phaeron, both of whom he has come to despise. Despite all this, his end does not match Lorgar’s indignation; he simply thinks “Ah, of course. I should have seen it.” I certainly don’t pretend this is better than Argel Tal’s fate in the novels, but Erebus has bigger fish to fry in this timeline.

 

Tchure is your more standard backstabbing Word Bearer. While not exactly sadistic, he has no problem with the legion’s new direction and always seeks opportunity for advancement, generally at any cost. Unlike Argel Tal, he idolizes Erebus, apparently the man to sway two primarchs to the Pantheon. His rapid ascendancy is the very reason for his death, Erebus grows paranoid of someone who was able to get into his good graces so quickly. When he needs a scapegoat for Lorgar’s death, Tchure is the obvious choice.

 

As with Lorgar, I’m not here to make Erebus any more sympathetic. He’s a self-serving seed of corruption and is in the running for the most plainly evil characters in the setting. As in the novels, Chaos is an excuse. While for Lorgar it was an object of devotion, for Erebus it’s merely a means for more power. It’s practically an addiction by the end of the series. While other legionaries would see his suicide mission as duty, or an example for glorious reunion with their gods, Erebus sees it as an unforgivable slight. Despite his transparent ambition, he does share some delusion of importance with his primarch. He is, after all, the one who started it all (or so he thinks). His death could hardly be the will of the Gods, could it?

 

I’ve always loved the theory that Erebus and Kor Phaeron had fabricated the idea of Lorgar in meditation. It’s perfectly in character for them and is an opportunity to give some much needed comeuppance to the primarch. I’d considered something more ambiguous but I wanted to counterbalance Shadow of the Past, which I think is an offensively lame short story. I like ADB’s pitch about Sanguinius killing a grovelling Lorgar, but it being one of his own has a nice poetry to it.

 

For all I talk about the Word Bearers being irredeemable, I don’t characterize them as quite the mustache-twirlers they are in the novels, despite exceptions in Tchure and Erebus. Space Marines are built to kill, when you replace their devotion to duty and honour with hungry gods, of course they’re going to start acting strangely. They’re pleased to kill, yes, but to them they provide salvation to their victims. When they tell the person they’ve flayed to rejoice, they genuinely believe it. This also makes them, on occasion, a bit of a legion of dupes. Lorgar or Erebus stating any given victory or defeat is the Gods’ will isn’t going to be met with skepticism. So, of course, when Erebus says it was always the plan for the defeat at Terra, no one bats an eye. They depart in an orderly manner, eager for the next crusade. Argel Tal would have a group of like-minded sad bois to hang about though, for contrast with Erebus' council of evil.

 

There also won't be a scene where whole squads gunned down by Ultramarines without inflicting a single casualty.

 

Most importantly, for all Lorgar says the Heresy has proceeded according to his design, it’s meant to be ambiguous over how correct he is. Was Lorgar really on the cusp of uniting Chaos and establishing its unending empire? Perhaps. Was he just an interchangeable tool, fully able to be replaced at any time in the Gods’ plans? Perhaps again. This arc is meant to add a sinister undercurrent to some of the apparently random events in other books, but is hardly meant to be a definitive "PALPATINE'S LORGAR'S BEHIND IT ALL!"

[Bobss]

Yes, I am also a big fan of Erebus and Kor Phaeron propagating the myth that Lorgar has been meditating for 10,000 years in his sanctum on Sicarus. The reason why this idea rocks and everyone I've mentioned it to agrees, is quite simply because it makes a bucket of sense on several fronts. It's perfectly in-character for the two of them to agree to this myth together, despite utterly hating each other, as a means to continuing their power struggle over the Legion; it deals with what exactly Lorgar is in the present day, and it is a twist that doesn't bulldoze any pre-existing material (besides the Corax shoehorn-ery short story) but packs a hell of a punch. The only downside I can see is that this removes Lorgar's potential post-Fall of Cadia where he challenges Abaddon for the right to lead Chaos' armies that ADB has alluded to a few times, but like hell that is ever going to be approved and written given Abaddon's recent outing at Vigilus (lol)

 

One thing I would love to add here is to make Erebus' origins firmly Terran. No ifs, no buts and no maybes. Argel Tal can be your Colchisian boy. As a big cheese in the Imperial Heralds, not only does this lend itself to his rivalry with Kor Phaeron (yes, I appreciate the Terran Vs. Homeworld division is overplayed, but it works, so who cares) as they grapple for power, seeing themselves as the spiritual heart of their Legion, but I have always, always, always loved the idea that Erebus studied (in secret? Openly, but in ignorance?) the cultures of the Age of Strife on Terra, and when he came to Colchis and noticed that Colchisian was extremely similar to a lot of the writings and symbology of these pre-Unification cults, he began to realise that the Emperor was covering up some kind of primordial truth that existed in the galaxy. As great as The First Heretic was, Erebus doesn't seem to go through some kind of development regarding Chaos. Lorgar obviously does, and Kor Phaeron was a rat from the start, but Erebus' own revelatory process and conversion is strangely absent. You could even use Erebus' position as a popular guy in the Imperial Heralds (not a Legion Master, but some kind of powerful chaplain figure) to build on his relationship with Horus - the reason why he is selected to go to the Vengeful Spirit to engineer Horus' fall is because of their shared history at the start of the Great Crusade, with Erebus and Horus enjoying a rich mutual history together debating the Imperial Truth and drinking the Emperor's Kool-Aid at the beginning. Erebus worming his way into the XVIth Legion gains more traction and his appointment as a Mournival-like figure is more believable. Lastly, Erebus being dismissed from his good friend Horus' presence or flayed or whatever is yet more evidence that the Warmaster has outgrown his handlers where warpcraft is concerned and is no longer the benevolent Luna Wolf he once was - even his traitorous buddies are mere disposable minions to an avatar of the gods

 

tl;dr emphasise Erebus as more of a Typhon-like figure than a wormy hanger-on

Edited May 12, 2020 by Bobss

[Roomsky]

I've never considered the possibility of Erebus as Terran, but that's an interesting angle. It certainly helps differentiate the two Dark Council leaders, and reduces the "Kor Phaeron did a thing, Erebus was also there" moments.

 

My imagination of the character is actually shaped most by Wraight's Child of Chaos, that look into his mind makes him one of the series' most disturbing characters.

[Fedor]

an idea for Lorgar that i always liked that fits into his secluded meditation actually being fabricated was that instead of ascending like his brothers, he falls foul of the very nature of the gods and gets turned into a mindless spawn without even necessarily failing at anything. That is what is really being kept out of sight by Erebus etc for possible future uses.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Fedor

[mc warhammer]

Time to get controversial.

 

 I like ADB’s pitch about Sanguinius killing a grovelling Lorgar, but it being one of his own has a nice poetry to it.

 

i didn't know adb released this level of detail about the pitch with it being sangy and lorgar grovelling. where can we read it?

[Roomsky]

 

i didn't know adb released this level of detail about the pitch with it being sangy and lorgar grovelling. where can we read it?

 

 

There's not much more to it, but check his Siege of Terra interview on the website, they're all worthwhile.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Roomsky

[mc warhammer]

ahh, it's a youtube vid. that's why i didn't know the details. had to skip to 09:50ish if anyone else wants to do the same.

[Roomsky]

To answer your earlier question, bluntblade:

 

Salamanders – Dan Abnett

POV Marine: Artellus Numeon

The Salamanders are swell dudes. They schism after Isstvan V into those who have faith that Vulkan lives (STOMP STOMP), and those that regress to suicidal altruism / valour in the fight against the traitors. Vulkan reassembles what he can, but by then it is too late to recover their numbers.

 

1. It’s the Great Crusade; The Salamanders are great with their supporting human regiments, but border on unnecessary cruelty when fighting Eldar (flashbacks to Nocturne are used as justification). Vulkan has a brief interaction with Curze on nearby Kharaatan, tasked to stop a rebellion. Vulkan argues compassion over slaughter, but while they arrest the rebel governor the Night Lords begin herding civilians into camps. The two legions nearly come to blows, but Curze suddenly backs down. The VIII depart, Curze promising Vulkan that time will prove his methods futile.

 

2. This book is The Battle of Isstvan V, closer to the ground than the other more strategically focused accounts. Numeon and the Salamanders under his command are cut off from Vulkan, who is assumed dead after an artillery strike on his position. Their remaining fleet is forced to scatter, believing that to remain as one is to invite total extinction. While some flee to loyalist worlds or to Meduson’s growing cause, Numeon returns to Isstvan, He discovers Vulkan and the last few Salamanders alive, but being chased by a band of far better equipped Night Lords. Numeon shoots down their aerial support and many of their tanks, allowing Vulkan to take the stragglers apart. Vulkan sets out with Numeon and reclaims his mantle as Legion commander.

 

3. Vulkan and Numeon search nearby systems for allies, but find only dead and turncoat worlds, any Salamanders defenders displayed messily and publicly. They arrive at Kharataan, and find the world controlled by Night Lord Gendor Skraivok. He too has made a grisly monument to the Salamanders and, unlike Curze, does not stop tormenting the population even after they’ve fallen in line. Vulkan organizes a rebellion and attacks the Governors palace, taunted all the while by Skraivok, saying his soft hand made the population easy to turn. As they approach the throne room, more of the palace guard turn on the Night Lords, with further loyalist rebellion spreading across the city. Vulkan burns Skraivok alive, commenting he has no compunction about using promethium on things that aren’t human. While victorious, Vulkan admits that even with the planetary militia’s assistance, they are not enough of a force to challenge the Warmaster’s fleet directly, so they begin a campaign devoted to liberating conquered worlds left in Horus’ wake. He says they must remain faithful that the Imperium will prevail.

 

-

 

Yes, I’ll admit it. For all my pot-shots at the guy, Kyme had some good ideas. A rivalry between the Sallies and the Night Lords especially is a compelling one, apparently polar opposites but in reality both believe theirs is the best way to defend humanity at large. I have no problem with heroism triumphing here because ultimately it’s quite small-scale compared to the Heresy at large. The legion’s nobility doesn’t save the day across the galaxy, they’re simply not enough. That hardly makes a difference to Vulkan, all lives are worth saving, strategically or otherwise.

 

I chose Abnett for this because he’s so very good at writing personable characters. Readers should believe that the Sallies are more in touch with baseline humanity than any other legion.

 

Vulkan is here to kick ass and save humanity, and he’s frequently all out of humanity. Woe betide anyone who forgets the lovable Vulkan tends to carry a big stick and commands the legion that favours one of the cruelest ways of killing things available. Even so, Vulkan’s limitless altruism is not above killing two birds with one stone: If he can liberate a population and have them eat their oppressors, that’s a happy coincidence. He also absolutely despises xenos, Eldar especially due to his upbringing on Nocturne. His humanitarian attitude is balanced by him being a giant space racist.

 

Numeon and his brothers are of the more faithful variety, as in the novels. It’s hardly as drawn out, but he still gets called a fool by more than one of his peers for lingering around a dead planet rather than taking the fight to the enemy. His personal belief in Vulkan’s divinity, and by extension the Emperor’s, is both a boon and a hindrance to him as the story goes on, to the point where Vulkan begins to question his mental state. Come their return to Kharataan, Numeon’s faith is a common ground with the civilians, and a tremendous boon in uniting them against Skraivok. Vulkan is forced to concede it’s a useful tool, but even by the planet’s liberation remains wary.

 

The Night Lords chasing around Vulkan on Isstvan can be led by your favoured colourful captain (I like The Raven, for a bit of irony.) Skraivok being in charge of a single world in a dead-end system is left somewhat ambiguous purpose-wise. On one hand, he may be representative of what has happened to the Night Lords in their time away from Imperial supervision. On the other hand, it’s a world Curze wanted to make a point with, and it’s hardly a glamorous position. Skraivok of course denies the posting is anything but a grand honour. He obviously does not make it to daemonhood.

[b1soul]

I would be all for an Alpha Legion novella focusing on internal conflict leading up to Praetorian of Dorn

 

I also think Lorgar's pre-Monarchia shenanigans should have been covered in more detail. He is the first heretic, so his fall should get as much attention as Horus'...perhaps even more.

 

Upon reflection, the WB would've benefited from a legion-building novel, showing their style of campaigning and how the Emperor's attempts to correct their course goes from gentle to progressively stiffer.

 

I think this novel could end with the compliance of Monarchia and Lorgar's fateful decision to, yet again, implement compliance in his preferred method, rather than the Emperor's. The next novel would cover the razing of Monarchia and Lorgar's fall.

[Roomsky]

I also think Lorgar's pre-Monarchia shenanigans should have been covered in more detail. He is the first heretic, so his fall should get as much attention as Horus'...perhaps even more.

 

Upon reflection, the WB would've benefited from a legion-building novel, showing their style of campaigning and how the Emperor's attempts to correct their course goes from gentle to progressively stiffer.

 

I think this novel could end with the compliance of Monarchia and Lorgar's fateful decision to, yet again, implement compliance in his preferred method, rather than the Emperor's. The next novel would cover the razing of Monarchia and Lorgar's fall.

 

Would you devote a separate series for Great Crusade works? I agree your suggestion would add texture to an important legion but if we're looking at a "core series" I'd argue you wouldn't need to start any earlier than Monarchia.

 

It also amuses me to this day that Lorgar's fall is conveyed convincingly in a single novel, while Horus' 3 make his seem completely unbelievable.

[mc warhammer]

 

I also think Lorgar's pre-Monarchia shenanigans should have been covered in more detail. He is the first heretic, so his fall should get as much attention as Horus'...perhaps even more.

 

Upon reflection, the WB would've benefited from a legion-building novel, showing their style of campaigning and how the Emperor's attempts to correct their course goes from gentle to progressively stiffer.

 

I think this novel could end with the compliance of Monarchia and Lorgar's fateful decision to, yet again, implement compliance in his preferred method, rather than the Emperor's. The next novel would cover the razing of Monarchia and Lorgar's fall.

 

Would you devote a separate series for Great Crusade works? I agree your suggestion would add texture to an important legion but if we're looking at a "core series" I'd argue you wouldn't need to start any earlier than Monarchia.

 

It also amuses me to this day that Lorgar's fall is conveyed convincingly in a single novel, while Horus' 3 make his seem completely unbelievable.

 

it's a good point. while a "set up" for the wb could be interesting, it's not necessary. adb conveyed lorgar's fall economically and with power in one book. that's great writing. everything you needed was in there.

 

it's like the difference between the departed and infernal affairs (both great takes on the exact same film). the departed spends a long time setting up the backgrounds; it's typical of hollywood's preference to handhold and explain to the audience. infernal gets straight in and trusts them to pick things up.  i'd argue that the pathos is actually more powerful in infernal.

Edited May 12, 2020 by mc warhammer

[b1soul]

Lorgar's canonical fall is very simple and human...the object of your devotion slaps you across the face. A spiteful Lorgar concludes that other beings are more worthy of his devotion. However, I think the Emperor's humiliation of Lorgar would benefit massively from more set-up.

 

I would therefore start the series with a pre-Monarchia novel or novella. In comic book parlance, it would be an issue #0. Lorgar's resentment of Guilliman and relationship with Horus could also be touched upon.

 

Horus' fall seemed to stem from a fear of death (thanks to the Anathame wound) and resentment that his Father chose not to share His secret project with him. There was also an element of Horus' resentment...essentially the Emperor had given Horus an extremely challenging task and then disappeared, cutting him off from His direct support.

 

It basically boiled down to "I don't want to die" and a number of daddy issues, which aren't immediately compelling as sufficient motivation for Horus to renounce daddy.

 

I think Horus' limitless ambition would have been the more obvious Chaos fuel than his insecurity. I think a masterful authour could make Horus' tale one of psychological manipulation by Lorgar (of which Horus is not entirely oblivious) and Horus' own desire for primacy over all others.

 

Rather than making Lorgar the idealistic runt of the litter, I would make him a learned and respected counselor among his brothers, almost like the therapist they go to for discussions beyond warfare.

 

He doesn't believe the Emperor is literally a god a la Yahweh, but he believes that on a practical level, the difference is mostly academic as the Emperor, humanity's most powerful champion ever, deserves the devotion of all human beings and faith is the most effective tool to sheperd the masses. Faith is unity and unity is strenth, making humanity a more unified potent force.

 

In his mind, he never strays into the superstitious irrationalism anathema to the Imperial Truth. He is just as utilitarian and far-sighted as the Emperor. Lorgar turns against the Emperor out of extreme spite after Monarchia and because the Emperor apparently fails to recognize the net benefit of faith, without which there cannot be long-term unity. In Lorgar's mind, the Imperial Faith he preaches is simply the Imperial Truth 2.0, a tool even more effective because of religious-like faith.

 

When confronted directly by the Chaos Gods, Lorgar comes to the following conclusions:

(1) these beings are closer to actual gods than the Emperor

(2) rather than desiring the destruction or degradation of humanity, they desire humanity to ascend to a higher state of existence and attunement with the Warp

(3) they encourage full devotion by all humanity to them and this ultimate purpose, i.e. The Primordial Truth.

 

_______________________

 

Upon reflection, perhaps an easier idea to implement is to flip the script...

 

Lorgar is not the Primarch of Faith, rather he is he Primarch of Truth. His flaw is that, being from an enlightened Colchis, he views the Warp in a way similar to how the Jedi view the Force. There is Dark, Light, and Grey. The Dark Aspects of the Warp Gods are the most tempting and dominant, as they reflect based human desires. However, the Warp as a whole is an integral part of the Universe, not to be quarantined or suppressed. During his compliance campaigns, he would destroy the more pernicious Warp cults but would allow the survival of those Warp schools judged by him to be more enlightened. So rather than turning the Imperial Truth into the Imperial Faith as in canon, he espouses a more "tolerant" and comprehensive Imperial Truth.

 

Lorgar also fundamentally disagrees with how the Emperor's Imperial Truth is designed. He clashes with Malcador more than once over this. He views omitting a balanced view of the Warp as leaving humanity ill-equipped to resist the temptations.

 

Monarchia would be Lorgar's controlled experiment to implement an education program based on Lorgar's version of the Truth. It is discovered by Imperial spies (which shakes Lorgar's trust in the Emperor) and the Emperor comes down on Lorgar like a ten-tonne sledgehammer. Lorgar is ordered to atone by eradicating, in one way or another, all of the schools of thought he allowed to survive during his campaigns.

 

Lorgar even hears rumours that the Emperor even considered purging him and his Legion for his decisions. All of this drives him to rebel.

[Bobss]

"Kor Phaeron did a thing, Erebus was also there"

 

As great as The First Heretic is, and I mean it's a top 5 Horus Heresy novel, this is sadly true. I would've loved a full-blown Word Bearers sequel to it. More specific details and context for Erebus' relationship with Argel Tal would've been welcome in Betrayer (alongside Si-ren-eh who sort of does nothing and barely reacts to, well, anything other than Matt Damon) setting up the 'great wings' momentnicely, and could've provided a conduit for Erebus' own development and machinations and perspective on things. In fact Betrayer trying to be a sequel to The First Heretic regarding Lorgar's storyline and advancing certain plot points from The First Heretic, while shifting the bulk of its focus onto Angron and the XIIth has never worked for me. The majority of their development comes in the 50-or-so pages between Big Battle #1 and Big Battle #2. Once again based John French sort of picks up the XVIIth later on and does things with them (also worth saying that your preference for splitting Legion POVs sometimes between a Great Crusade/early-Heresy dude and a mid-late Heresy/Siege dude is a great vehicle for showing these changes as well)

Edited May 12, 2020 by Bobss

[b1soul]

First Heretic was effective in that it needed to justify Lorgar's fall in one novel.

 

He needed to be utterly devoted to something...and if it wasn't the Emperor, it would be Chaos. I think it's effective but quite simplistic at its core (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). Would've preferred more nuance and build up over more than one novel.

[bluntblade]

Tbh, that sort of thing I'd be happy to relegate to a novella or short.

 

I find myself wondering if Corvus or Vulkan should be partly responsible for the UM and whoever else breaking through the Ruinstorm. Like, they fire up a beacon or summat.

 

I think I'd use one of those as well to depict a bit of the World Eaters' deterioration after Nuceria, as I don't know if the WE alone can carry a whole book if they're all going blood-mad.

Edited May 12, 2020 by bluntblade

[b1soul]

I don't think a short would be enough. Maybe an opening novella.

 

Building upon my second idea

Lorgar is not the Primarch of Faith, rather he is he Primarch of Truth. His flaw is that, being from an enlightened sect of Colchis, he views the Warp in a way similar to how the Jedi view the Force. There are various shades of Dark, Light, and Grey. The Dark Aspects of the Warp Gods are the most tempting and dominant, as they reflect based human desires. However, the Warp as a whole is an integral part of the Universe, not to be quarantined or suppressed. There is evidence that some bygone societies may have mastered a balanced harmony with the Warp (he believes his sect on Colchis is well on the way toward that goal). During his compliance campaigns, he would destroy the more pernicious Warp cults but would allow the survival of those Warp schools judged by him to be more enlightened. So rather than turning the Imperial Truth into the Imperial Faith as in canon, he espouses a more "tolerant" and comprehensive Imperial Truth.

 

Lorgar also fundamentally disagrees with how the Emperor's Imperial Truth is designed. He clashes with Malcador more than once over this. He views omitting a balanced view of the Warp as leaving humanity ill-equipped to resist its darker temptations.

 

Monarchia would be Lorgar's controlled experiment to implement an education program based on Lorgar's version of the Truth. It is discovered by Malcador's spies and the Emperor comes down on Lorgar like a ten-tonne sledgehammer (which shakes Lorgar's trust in the Emperor). Lorgar is ordered to atone by eradicating, in one way or another, all of the schools of thought he allowed to survive during his campaigns.

 

Lorgar even hears rumours that the Emperor is seriously considering a purge of him and his Legion for his decisions. All of this drives him to rebel.

 

I think if Lorgar had the motivations above, it would make sense for him to be killed off during the HH series.

 

Logar incites a rebellion because he fundamentally disagrees with the Imperial Lie and sees it as a disaster in the making, i.e. minds have to be fortified against the darker aspects of the Warp by the inculcation of correct knowledge and attitude, not ignorance. He starts the rebellion out of a desire to save the Imperium but also, deep down, out of personal resentment.

 

On Colchis, Kor Phaeron and Erebus pretended to be enlightened but are in fact power-hungry worshipers of the Dark Gods. Still wolves in sheeps' clothing.

 

Horus has been harbouring desires to be top dog even superior to the Emperor, such is his ambition. Horus suppresses these inner desires. Kor Phaeron and Erebus propose a plan to Lorgar: Horus will be struck with a blade that will "illuminate" him, showing him the nature of the Primordial Truth. Therefore, when Lorgar approaches Horus about the need to overturn the Lie, an illuminated Horus cannot disagree based on the knowledge imparted by the blade.

 

The blade is the Anathame, which only unleashes Horus' powerful ambitions. Lorgar approaches Horus and Horus agrees, but out of an overwhelming desire for primacy, not because he truly believes the Imperium needs to be enlightened in the manner Logar desires. Horus gathers other primarchs who have an axe to grind with the Emperor or the Imperium. Fulgrim, being an exception, is corrupted with a gifted blade stoking and exploring his extreme vanity at his core.

 

At some point, Horus destroys Lorgar, taking full control of the rebellion and introducing accelerating full-blown Chaos corruption. Erebus and Kor Phaeron inherit the Legion and do with it as they've always wanted.

[Roomsky]

The Raven Guard, now Alpha Legion free!

 

Raven Guard – ADB

POV Marines: Agapito Nev, Branne Nev

The Arc: Corax is a brilliant commander but is never satisfied with his results, pushing his effective loyalist force to its own destruction. The Nev brothers act as foils to the primarch, tempering and encouraging him in equal measure.

 

1. The Raven Guard take part in the compliance of Gate 42. Flashbacks to Corax’s youth punctuate his distaste for both Horus’ willingness to sacrifice others, and the cruel terror tactics of his Terran legionaries. Corax sends the Terrans into the meatgrinder, which is objected to by Branne and supported by Agapito. The legion returns to Deliverance to bolster their numbers, and Branne is named master of recruits. He believes this is for gainsaying his primarch, Corax retorts that he needs more soldiers like Branne. Years later, when Corax hears of Horus’ betrayal, he is more than eager to gain some manner of vengeance.

 

2. On Deliverance, Branne works with the governors to quell uprisings in the wake of Horus’ betrayal. He receives word of Isstvan V, and proceeds to the planet as further support. He arrives to a system at war, and after some tense maneuvering, reaches the planet’s surface at the cost of many of his ships. Corax takes command after being extracted, and they flee the system. The legion makes for Terra, retrieves some of the Emperor’s gene-tech, and returns to Deliverance. In Branne’s absence, the tech guilds and old-guard slavers have begun a rebellion in earnest. Corax coordinates attacks on the rebels while the gene-tech allows the creation of the Raptors. These new marines allow Corax to quickly stamp out the rebellion, and begin planning how to strike out against Horus.

 

3. The Raven Guard lead numerous strikes on Horus’ supply lines and Forge Worlds, the Raptors returning the IXX to comparable legion strength rapidly. Corax increases the pressure on his magi and Branne, eager to prove his tactical superiority over Horus. Corax’s focus is on the Sons of Horus, and his plans become ever bolder as his resources are further bolstered. He meets emissaries from Meduson, but rebuffs an alliance unless he is allowed to take command of Meduson’s forces, they do not comply. He continues to expand; inciting civilian and slave uprisings on traitor worlds, but missions begin to fail due to sudden mutation in the Raptors. Branne tells him this is due to an unsafely accelerated implantation program, but Corax insists some failures are worth the strength they are gaining. Corax leads an attack on a major forge world, intending to both cripple Horus’ major supply line and use it for the Raven Guard. Though the Sons of Horus and Abaddon have laid a trap for Corax, they did not anticipate his numbers and are quickly on the back foot. Mid-battle, even the older generation raptors begin to change, all but the first wave of them deforming, falling unconscious, or attacking their brothers. Corax is forced to retreat, abandoning several ships and troops just to survive. Corax curses himself for his arrogance, and orders his remaining ships to make all speed for Terra. He is informed Beta Garmon has already fallen to the traitors, and that it could takes weeks simply to move through the system undetected. To speed his passage, he sends the remaining deformed raptors to run interference. The Raven Guard arrive on Terra too late, and a defeated Corax enters his year-long seclusion.

 

-

 

The IXX legion’s role in the Heresy was always going to be limited. The ability to build new legionaries in a fraction of the time is an incredibly powerful tool, but Corax can hardly pull the fleet I’m sure he’d find ideal out of nowhere. The primarch has a vision for the battlefield, but never seems to have the assets he desires; he wants to be planning the actions of a legion proper. At Gate 42, he lacks the authority to dominate the battlefield. After Isstvan, he lacks the men and materiel. His impatience to close this gap between plan and reality is what motivates the failure of the Raptors, he ever needs more resources, and more quickly.

 

I see Corax’s flaw as a commander being that desire for a perfect arsenal. The primarch is brilliant, he is fully capable of turning even the smallest fighting force into a dagger in the enemy’s side, but unbeknownst to his brothers, Corax coveted the position of Warmaster as well. His ambition is born from his upbringing; his respect for his comrades and his disdain for slavery paint him, in his own mind, as the Warmaster the Imperium really needed. His being passed over only made him more resentful of Horus, of course. He leads an effective legion of reasonable marines but imagines he could be exponentially more effective with added resources. His successful campaigns once his legion starts to refill are testament to that, it’s only the Raptors’ degeneration that sees him defeated.

 

This flaw, perhaps born out of his desire for vengeance, is hopefully balanced by his competence. Yes, Corax would be a strategist to rival the best of them with a full legion, but his inability to accept that’s not what he’s going to able to attain sees him reduced back to impotence.

 

Personality-wise, I see him as a bit more overdramatic than brooding. His hatred of slavemasters, his vendetta against those who wronged him, these are things Corax cannot let go of, and isn’t afraid to make it known. His mastery of stealth hardly makes him ineffective in the open, and he always pushes his men further with praise and rousing speeches rather than threats. Even the overproduction of Raptors isn’t spurred by his furious impatience, rather his men being caught up in his enthusiasm and plans of grand vengeance.

By the final rush to Terra, Corax sends yet another unfavourable denomination of his legion to their doom, this time of his own accord. Like Dorn, he believed atrocities were necessary, temporary measures for victory. When they arrive too late, the realization of all he shares with Horus crushes him.

 

Branne always seems to find himself the devil’s advocate. Unlike Agapito, his is a mind for cold logic. He’s certainly ever bound by duty, he never once complains or hesitates in his orders, but he would find it irresponsible to not voice his concerns over any given plan. He holds no resentment over being made master of recruits, and it’s only his competence that keeps the Raptor training program stable at all, but he still reflects over whether his primarch is truly sincere in his appreciation. Come Terra, Corax confesses he believes Branne’s cautious council was right all along. Branne responds that no, they were all wrong. It’s ambiguous whether or not Branne is suffering a milder form of Ash Blindness.

 

Agapito is a bit of an incidental yes-man for Corax. He’s not a sycophant, he just happens to echo his primarch’s convictions in any course of action. He thirsts for revenge, for the means to effectively dispense it, and for the legion to be mighty again. Unlike Corax, Agapito’s enthusiasm does not fade by Terra, and he becomes a force of momentum in the aftermath following the primarch’s seclusion. He dies in the year Corax is inactive, taking the fight to the traitors and never losing faith in his gene-father.

 

Navar Hef would be present as a supporting character, struggling with his degeneration as in the novels. He’s initially the legion ideal, humble and honourable, albeit with some conceits due to how quickly his transformation was. His degeneration is rapid and soul-crushing. He is the one to suggest to Corax that the Raptors be used as bait on their flight to Terra, wanting only to die as nobly as he can.  The Raptor degeneration plot is supposed to highlight Corax’s character flaws, Alpha Legion involvement could work in theory but its execution in Deliverance Lost absolves Corax of most all of the blame. Resentment of the warp had to be transplanted onto his downward spiral instead, which I personally found much less compelling (and occasionally headscratching). We’re keeping this disaster firmly in Corax’s hands, here.

 

The Ravens’ anti-slave sentiments would come forward with, like the Salamanders, a lot of baseline human involvement. The Therions are the obvious choice, I’ve never liked Valerius but I’m sure someone like ADB could develop him into something enjoyable.

 

A sub-plot would be the growing division within the legion; by the third book they have Branne and his vanilla marines, Agapito and the Isstvan veterans, and the new Raptors. The destruction of the Raptors brings the remaining factions closer, but not in a healthy manner: they know their cooperation is important now more than ever, but have an air of “at least we weren’t those guys.”

 

 

@bluntblade- (unfairly) maligned as the device is, a novel with full-blown savage World Eaters can always be propped up by baseline human characters and drama. 

[Roomsky]

Alpha Legion – John  French

POV Marine: Alpharius(?)

The Arc: Alpharius and Omegon slowly grow apart in their plans as the series progresses. By the time one takes the reins on the legion, it is too fractured to remain effective.

 

1. Open in the Great Crusade, with Guilliman’s criticism of the twin primarchs' methods, and Horus’ support. Alpharius and Omegon meet with the Cabal, but apparently dismiss the acuity as xenos lies and wipe them out. By the time Horus approaches them, the Alphas already have intelligence on every legion. Omegon, commanding their role at Isstvan V, is genuinely in support of Horus. Alpharius, coordinating the events at Chondax and Alaxxes, has become convinced of the acuity now that Horus has fallen as they predicted.

 

2. Alpharius and Omegon begin to step on each other’s’ toes. Various campaigns have Alpha legionnaires running into each other, blind to the others’ mission. Most of the book builds to the battle of Pluto, where Alpharius is abandoned by the legion support he was expecting to apparently die at Dorn’s hand.

 

3. By the time of the Siege, Omegon realizes he should have offed his rival primarch more quickly. He wonders if Alpharius remains alive, as various cells are turning on him /suddenly ignoring his orders. Omegon takes up a logistical role during the Siege, but information about the acuity makes its way to Horus, who immediately doubts Omegon’s loyalties. The Alpha Legion’s remaining forces at Terra are ordered to the front / the most dangerous solar war zones, and Omegon is ordered to engage the Phalanx with the Beta, a fight he cannot possibly win. Omegon flees the system before the end of the Siege, facing no choice but to build a new power base for himself.

 

-

 

This is obviously a bit of a departure from the Alpha Legion in both the novels and in the old fluff, beyond my eternal crusade to see them at least partially motivated by Guilliman’s disdain. I actually don’t have any complaints about their portrayal in the novel series, though they tend to be plot devices more than characters. That’s something I tried to tackle here.

I shed no tears over the abandoned legion civil war plot (for cynical reasons I won’t go in to), but as I’ve said before, I won’t deny it’s got legs.  As for the legion itself, if any character is going to be compelling they need to know at least how to recognize each other. Silonius and Pech are obvious choices for some character building, but some Forge World additions would be especially welcome here. Bring in Skorr, he’s cool.

 

Omegon is the primarch we’re following here, and he’s a cold soul. He’s not above grudges and tends to have problems killed rather than repurposed. He has a genuine admiration for Horus, their first meeting alluded to but never seen, and sees Alpharius as an unfortunate obstacle to effectively winning the war. Be it Alpharius himself or one of his vengeful sons’ works, making Horus his enemy is the greatest personal blow that could be dealt to the guy. Omegon loses his legion, which up until this point he’s apparently had perfect control over, is just icing on that cake. Unlike so many of his brothers who dig their own graves via personality flaw, Omegon has that choice taken away from him.

 

Alpharius is more impassioned, and if one of the two needs to rouse the men, it’s Alpharius. Convinced wholly that the best method to stop Chaos is to have it destroy itself, his actions can range from brilliant to obtuse (but did the Wolves REALLY escape Alaxxes?). As in the Fists books, there’s no definitive answer to his death scene.

 

I don’t have a whole lot else to add here. I suppose I’d hope they end up less of a meme legion. There’s ways to make stealthy reasonable marines besides having them pull a batman and just appear behind people. Their operatives are legion and their intelligence is already well established, they’ve usually won before the battle even starts.

 

They don’t get flashbacks because some mystique you shouldn’t touch.

 

Wrapping the main body of this project up tomorrow with trilogy outlines for the Mechanicum and the Emperor's Talons.

[b1soul]

"As in the Fists books, there’s no definitive answer to his death scene."

 

You mean you'd choose to make it ambiguous as opposed to unambiguous? Cuz even if PoD is considered ambiguous, French himself has dispelled that ambiguity. 

 

As for the RG, I'd actually get rid of the Raptors/AL subplot entirely. I don't think it improved the old lore at all. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by b1soul

[Roomsky]

"As in the Fists books, there’s no definitive answer to his death scene."

 

You mean you'd choose to make it ambiguous as opposed to unambiguous? Cuz even if PoD is considered ambiguous, French himself has dispelled that ambiguity.

 

As for the RG, I'd actually get rid of the Raptors/AL subplot entirely. I don't think it improved the old lore at all.

Was referring to my outline for the Fists books, where I’d keep it unclear if Alpharius himself was the one who died.

 

I’ve only found vague accounts of old lore for the Raven Guard, I just know the mutations for his warriors should be on him. The Emperor’s gene-tech is convenient but I’m not sure what other method Corax could use that wouldn’t also be used by the traitors, making it a useless gesture.