Hypothetical Horus Heresy Series

[no I'm alpharius]

Just popping by to say I've enjoyed all of these. Thanks!

[bluntblade]

 

"As in the Fists books, there’s no definitive answer to his death scene."

 

You mean you'd choose to make it ambiguous as opposed to unambiguous? Cuz even if PoD is considered ambiguous, French himself has dispelled that ambiguity.

 

As for the RG, I'd actually get rid of the Raptors/AL subplot entirely. I don't think it improved the old lore at all.

Was referring to my outline for the Fists books, where I’d keep it unclear if Alpharius himself was the one who died.

 

I’ve only found vague accounts of old lore for the Raven Guard, I just know the mutations for his warriors should be on him. The Emperor’s gene-tech is convenient but I’m not sure what other method Corax could use that wouldn’t also be used by the traitors, making it a useless gesture.

Possibly he could have obtained something from another advanced civilisation, with that conflict being in the first book.

[Bobss]

The primarch has a vision for the battlefield, but never seems to have the assets he desires; he wants to be planning the actions of a legion proper. At Gate 42, he lacks the authority to dominate the battlefield. After Isstvan, he lacks the men and materiel. His impatience to close this gap between plan and reality is what motivates the failure of the Raptors, he ever needs more resources, and more quickly.

 

I see Corax’s flaw as a commander being that desire for a perfect arsenal. The primarch is brilliant, he is fully capable of turning even the smallest fighting force into a dagger in the enemy’s side, but unbeknownst to his brothers, Corax coveted the position of Warmaster as well. His ambition is born from his upbringing; his respect for his comrades and his disdain for slavery paint him, in his own mind, as the Warmaster the Imperium really needed. His being passed over only made him more resentful of Horus, of course. He leads an effective legion of reasonable marines but imagines he could be exponentially more effective with added resources. His successful campaigns once his legion starts to refill are testament to that, it’s only the Raptors’ degeneration that sees him defeated.

 

This is really good stuff. In one forum post you have given Corax more real definition and genuine agency than Gav Thorpe has done in several books, or Guy Haley tried to do making them Night Lords Lite in his own Primarchs book. In fact the only written Primarch account that has gone in this direction is Guymer's Ferrus from what I remember

 

I have always believed Angron is the perfect foil for Corax. Not only were they both discovered later on, and their Legions had plenty of built-up baggage to play around with (also nails/raptors shenanigans), but most importantly they have contrasting views of the Imperium despite a similar upbringing. There is a line in The First Heretic where Corax faces Lorgar and he's like ''reee you're ruining the perfect order reee what are you doing reee'' which is extremely interesting (praise ADB) because it suggests that while Corax abhors slavery, he has sort of accepted the Imperium's role in the galaxy - despite being the greatest slaver of them all. It's not cognitive dissonance, it's more like... a sort of greater good-type belief. Compare this to Angron who even at his most lucid moments despises the Emperor and effectively labels him as the High(est) Rider of All. In a way, Corax is sort of a more self-aware Russ, who's ardently loyal but through a more complex thought process

 

Is Corax a hypocrite and Angron is a martyr? Is Corax an adult and Angron is a child?

Edited May 13, 2020 by Bobss

[bluntblade]

That could also tie into the Raven's Flight stuff and then give the reader a lens on the degenerating World Eaters.

[b1soul]

Just clarifying that I don't think Thorpe's AL/Raptors subplot contributes anything to the lore

 

I think Corax could just stick with trying to accelerate marine creation and failing

[Roomsky]

Just clarifying that I don't think Thorpe's AL/Raptors subplot contributes anything to the lore

 

I think Corax could just stick with trying to accelerate marine creation and failing

 

Ah, a fair point. A simple plan to try and accelerate marine creation is a bit of a dialing back of what I understand of the old fluff, but that might be what the series needed. I'm interested to hear your take on the Nineteenth. Maybe it's even something he puts his mind to after the Siege, if you decide to implant some stuff between his seclusion and "nevermore." Would also be an opportunity to build the legion's enmity with the White Scars, if you think the primarchs were involved; they don't really intersect during the Heresy.

[bluntblade]

Or just paying a high moral price. Corvus watches tens of thousands of youths die to produce a few hundred Astartes, that's gonna do things to the Liberator. Edited May 13, 2020 by bluntblade

[Bobss]

"As in the Fists books, there’s no definitive answer to his death scene."

 

You mean you'd choose to make it ambiguous as opposed to unambiguous? Cuz even if PoD is considered ambiguous, French himself has dispelled that ambiguity.

 

This always makes me chuckle. And by CHUCKLE I mean despair 

 

The fact an author has to go out of their way to use the afterword of their book to confirm a plot point just goes to show the absolute state of the Alpha Legion in 2016/2017. That isn't to criticise the man himself, because he's a superb author, and Praetorian of Dorn is a top 10 Horus Heresy book for sure, and even the death scene is decent, but the fact French has to effectively tack on some 4th-wall breaking clarification to effectively combat the baggage of previous books/portrayals is maddening

 

I would tackle the Alpha Legion's betrayal slightly differently to anything mentioned before. Despite the memes I believe they are a wellspring for potential. I would put a lot of emphasis on the idea that they were discovered so late in the Great Crusade that Alpharius and Omegon have never actually met the Emperor due to the general scale of the Crusade at that point, never mind the Emperor beginning to look towards other things (maybe the XXth Primarch is secretly considered dead or lost, idk) and were instead 'raised' by Horus on campaign. They were never taken back to Terra for Bible Studies with Malcador or shook the Fabricator General's mechadendrites on Mars, and their development comes from an inherently conquest-driven figure like Horus - who also happens to be highly charismatic. This is used to show that the XXth Legion has no particular love or hate towards the Emperor (which shows up later), but instead see Horus as their father figure due to his experience, his preeminence and his benevolence, praising their unusual way of war in face of Guilliman's scorn. As Horus rises to the position of Warmaster, his active hand in the development of the Alpha Legion hearkens back to the days when he helped guide most of the Primarch-less Legions, and after Horus decides to conquer the Imperium for himself but pre-Isstvan III, the Alpha Legion in particular receive the best cutting-edge equipment he can sequester from his contacts on Mars, and begins to disperse them across the Imperium for the war to come. However, the Alpha Legion's Emperor-less existence comes back to haunt things; as Horus himself begins to make more demands of the twins and suckle on the teat of Chaos more and more himself, one of the twins and a half of the Legion begins to sabotage the other half and aid the Imperium, and this is where all of the Legion infighting begins. I would place this maybe around Molech, but perhaps before depending on how brutal and catastrophic Horus is towards non-compliant worlds in the wake of the Dropsite Massacre. The half of the Legion that deviates from Horus are not necessarily pro-Emperor, but see the Imperium in its current form as better than what it may become if Horus is allowed to win. Sort of like a Blackshield Legion, perhaps. As the Heresy stretches out, the differences in the Alpha Legion's tactics becomes more and more apparent as some taskforces uses elements of ritual and warp-magick in their missions to gain the upper-hand

 

I would also play up the Alpha Legion ('The Last'/'The Last Legion'?) as Horus' Dark Angels if you will, where they begin to receive some of the Mechanicum's newest and best tech fabricated using cutting-edge STC discoveries right at the end of the Great Crusade hot off the forges, and later on receive some of the Dark Mechanicum's funky inventions - not demon engines per se, but warp-based devices like the Word Bearers-map-thing in Scars that benefit their unusual way of war. Once again, as Horus becomes less and less tactile and takes the Twin Primarchs for granted, things go south for everyone. Like the Dark Angels, the Alpha Legion become entrenched in secrecy and infighting which hampers their war effort and defines the culture of their warbands post-Siege as the Fallen do. Despite being foils of a sort, I wouldn't have them directly clash in any meaningful or significant way because they're busy in different theatres for the most part

 

There are a few good points to the Cabal storyline and the inclusion of Perpetuals, but I would bin the thing off entirely. No alien mcguffins, just a series of logical developments based on the unique context that the Alpha Legion find themselves in

[Roomsky]

Emperor’s Talons – Chris Wraight

POV Talons: Diocletian, Amandera Kendel

The Arc: Terra is repeatedly thrown into Chaos by the Gods’ plans, from Magnus breaching the Webway to the Siege itself. While the Emperor struggles ever harder to assure Mankind’s survival, both the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence can’t help but come away changed, for better or worse.

 

1. The Emperor returns to Terra to oversee the end of the Webway project. Kendel and the Sisters fight psyker xenos far from Terra. Magnus arrives to deliver his message, the psychic shockwave causing nightmares and technical failure across Terra, a la Outcast Dead. Diocletian works outside the palace walls to quell the resultant riots, Kendel is called back to Terra to assist the war in the Webway. Resources are pulled from Mars for this purpose, but much of it explodes or attacks when Kelbor Hal reveals his loyalties. Kendel arrives and assist in pacifying the City of Sight with the Custodes. Both are summoned before the throne to take their place in the webway war.

 

2. Kendel and Diocletian have been fighting in The Webway War for months, fighting daemons exclusively. The Machanicum has some frontlines troops but works distantly to fortify the ground they take. Drach’nyen preys on the outlying sorties to build its mass. The Sisters and the Custodians incur massive losses and frequently fight for days on end; midway through they are both forced to take some time outside the Webway to recuperate, and discover that Horus has turned traitor. Diocletian attends Valdor at a war council, but struggles with his growing apathy. Kendel embraces to Imperial Cult to keep from a breakdown, and is called to assist with the influx of psykers for the Golden Throne. The two are called back to the Webway early, as Drach’nyen is pushing on their final holdings. They fight for days, now against traitor marines as well, finally relieved by the Emperor’s arrival. He destroys the daemon horde’s front lines and duels Drach’nyen, which is forced to flee, weakened. The remaining loyalist forces are expelled from the Webway, and the Emperor retakes his place on the throne.

 

3. The Siege of Terra begins, the Talons retained for defence of the inner palace. Both factions have grown to resent Space Marines, blaming them and the primarchs for the present situation. Dorn chafes with Valdor, demanding he reinforce the front lines, Valdor retorts he is not their master. The Webway gate is breached in part, hordes of Khornate daemons flooding through. The Talons fight side by side with the Blood Angels, and regain some respect for the astartes. Malcador takes The Emperor’s place on the Golden Throne, Kendel and Diocletian are both chosen to accompany the attack on the Vengeful Spirit. Both see the Emperor fall, and are barely held back from pursuing the traitors to their deaths. During the aftermath, they return to Terra and observe the Blood Angels have fallen to an uncontrollable fury. Diocletian’s newfound respect is undone. Kendel prays to the Emperor, believing that his silence is a sign of his ascension, not his death.

 

-

 

Due to the trilogy structure, scenes that focus on the Emperor are few and far between in the marine books. I wouldn’t take it too overboard in these, even for a series about 30k Custodians, but we’d see a bit more of Him per book than even in Master of Mankind. Distant, of course, and always vague. I’d also hammer home the idea that The Emperor is different things to different people, for example: having the same conversation in both a Kendel and a Diocletian chapter, with notable differences in what he’s saying between them. The physical description of the Emperor in these scenes would leave it ambiguous over whether they’re seeing different things.

 

He reflects the moods of the POV characters, as Diocletian’s hatred for the astartes grows, so does the Emperor become colder when describing them. As Kendel’s faith increases, so to do the Emperor’s pseudo-religious remarks. When He prepares to assault the Vengeful Spirit, Kendel sees great sorrow in his eyes, while Diocletian sees only righteous fury. As in the novels, He always acts for the needs of the many, but this is counterbalanced by a scene on the Vengeful Spirit, where he goes out of his way to defend some isolated Guardsmen. The POVs wonder at his ability to show compassion to individuals just as easily as kill a world.

 

Kendel begins the series dismissive of the Imperial Cult, even accounting for her order’s limited knowledge of Chaos. After an extended period in the Webway, however, she risks collapsing in on herself without a higher power to lean on. Humanity’s empire is collapsing, betrayal is lurking at every turn, and the armies of hell are even more horrific than she could have imagined. His golden light is simply her means of spiritual survival.

 

Diocletian already believes the Custodes are the Emperor’s true sons when the series begins, but is apathetic to the other tools he’s chosen to build, he certainly recognizes the marines’ utility. The Blood Angels are set to be the exception, especially when he sees the Angel fighting in his full glory. When they descend into uncontrolled rage, he decides that even the noblest of marines are little more than animals. A scholarly and open mind, shown at the start of the first book, devolves into one obsessed with marine extermination over most anything else. Despite this downward trajectory, he isn’t the unmitigated we see in the novels.

 

Each book has a variant main setting, and would be used to really flesh out 30k Terra’s history and culture. The first deals with the cities in and surrounding the palace, from slums to mansions, markets to domiciles. The second is the palace as it was, juxtaposed against the fortifications by Dorn. So too is the Webway expanded on here, from its Eldar creators to its impossible architecture. In the third we see more of the inner walls, the deepest and most secret sanctums. Having Wraight in control would provide a lovely contrast to most of these things in 40k.

 

Valdor and Malcador would both be prominent in the supporting cast. Malcador, apparently all-seeing, balances kind philosophy with the harshest pragmatism. He knows the warp in a way few others do, and with a daemonic army on the horizon he is the face of the camps, pogroms, and executions resulting from a need for security. Valdor is unfailingly polite, but at odds with most of those surrounding him. He is unwavering in executing the orders given by Malcador, but is privately concerned that he may be abusing his office.

 

The Webway War is the doom of mankind as it is in the novels, but like Lorgar’s machinations, this is barely even hinted at in the stories of other legions. It adds a depressing note to some of those triumphs, but the singularity of that goal is downplayed here. Chaos needed a distraction to pull this off, yes, but they still plan dominate the Imperium and kill the Anathema with their Horus puppet. They win one of two wars, perhaps the more important, but hardly the only. Horus is not referred to as the Sacrificial King; Chaos will probably let him die when they’re finished with him, but they full expect him to be their gun with which to kill the Emperor.

 

Drach’nyen remains the echo of the first murder, but has no special properties beyond having terrifying strength for a daemon, practically a small Chaos God in its own right. It believes it is destined to kill the Emperor, but at the height of his powers the Emperor is able to drive it away and shackle its power. But wielded by a mighty hand, and against the invalid in 40k, that’s a different story.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Roomsky

[bluntblade]

To be honest, the Talons are one pair of factions I'd happily confine to a single volume and a few shorts and novellas.

[Roomsky]

To be honest, the Talons are one pair of factions I'd happily confine to a single volume and a few shorts and novellas.

 

Would you plot the Webway War as it's own event or roll it all in one?

[bluntblade]

I'd probably just leave MoM to be itself, albeit with an event elsewhere - possibly in a book after Betrayer featuring the Word Bearers - in which Horus and Lorgar actually send their minions into the Webway. Possibly that's where I'd send Targhost to, and have one or two Traitors appear for Beta Garmon and the Siege having come to prominence in the Webway War.

Edited May 13, 2020 by bluntblade

[b1soul]

Yeah...every idea proposed in this thread contributes more value than Thorpe's shenanigans in Deliverance Lost. The man has some good ideas (e.g. Ashes of Prospero), but DL is not one of them (IMO of course) and his execution only exacerbates.

 

 

Personal opinion:

 

I'm not a huge fan of the RG vs.WS rivalry. I would make the WS and RG more like friendly chapters post-Heresy. Both the Khan and Corax are taciturn and intense and have a strong sense of justice rooted in the cultures of their homeworlds (Chogorian custom and Lycaean rebel morality). They hit hard and fast, with WS emphasising speed and RG emphasising stealth.

 

The old lore has WS and SW being buddies and WS and RG being rivals (the latter is still a fixture in more recent lore I believe). I would adjust that...

 

1. WS and RG never had the chance to campaign together during the GC or Heresy. During the Scouring, they work together and find that they get along quite well. Corax and Khan give each other room when they work together. These two chapters should get along IMO.

 

2. Khan and Russ never become truly "friendly", but Russ and Khan do work together during the Scouring like they promised each other at the end of Path of Heaven. Russ' more brash, dominating,and competitive personality and his preferred tactics (frontal shock assaults) are a source of manageable friction, but friction nonetheless, with the Khan. Clash of personality and doctrine. Some of the jarls and khans tend to get along better and find that their counterparts' ways are genuinely worthy of respect in quite a few areas.

 

If anything, I think the WS should have a less friendly relationship with the IF. You can see how their styles are radically different at the Siege. There is also very little common ground or potential points of bonding between Dorn and Khan.

 

EDIT: As I recall, Malcador says if Dorn is an exercise in rock-solid reliability and certainty, the Khan is an exercise in the opposite. Anyone recall which work this is?

Edited May 14, 2020 by b1soul

[mc warhammer]

one thing i think the heresy from the early days got right about characters is that common ground or like-mindedness doesn't necessarily lead to friendship or closeness (pert and dorn, curze and corax). the writers seem to understand that opposites (or more accurately, inversions) tend to attract (fulgrim and ferrus).

 

in that way, i think dorn and khan would absolutely admire each other, even as they clash they still see how the other is right in their own way. as the khan says about his brother in "solar war"; he's caged but needs a moment of flight. we can infer that on some level dorn appreciates the warhawk's freedom.

[Roomsky]

Mechanicum – David Guymer (assuming Peter Fehervari can't be baited into something so grand)

POV Tech Priest: Vethorel

The Arc: This is less about character development and more about intrigue. The cast on both sides of the conflict struggle to stay alive against a Mechanicum-grade kudzu web of betrayal.

 

1. Open with The Schism of Mars. Kane steals important secrets from Kelbor-Hal and flees to a distant forge, helping to coordinate a titan counter-offensive. The forbidden archeotech and warp assistance of the enemy titans leads to an overwhelming traitor victory, Vethorel flees with Zagreus Kane to Terra. Initial support from the Throneworld amounts only to limited rescue operations. The High Lords are in favour of overwhelmingly destructive counter-attack, but threats of a second schism from Kane table the idea. Kane is given diplomatic autonomy and promises of a peaceful solution to Mars in exchange for pledging his remaining forces to the Webway War. Kane’s fabricator locum plots his death, and while Vethorel fails to warn Kane before the attack, the Fabricator General out-plans the would-be assassins and has the man killed. Vethorel is made new Fabrictor Locum for her loyalty and utility.

 

2. The Archimandrite is developed for coordinate Mechanicus involvement in The Webway War. Kane co-opts much of the Vanus temple’s assassins in an attempt to kill Kelbor Hal and destabilize Martian leadership. A two-pronged attack inserts scrapcode into many of the Vanus, and a daemon into the Archimandrite. Kane is killed, and many of the Webway forces turn against the Custodes and Sisters. Vethorel becomes the new Fabricator General, but takes both the fallout over the Archimandrite and much derision from her peers; she is not as heavily augmented as Kane for diplomatic reasons. Vethorel pleads to the Imperial Assembly for the Mechanicum to become part of the Adeptus Terra, and after initial denials threatens them with a battle titan. She is successful and gains some stability for her position.

 

3. After the Emperor’s internment, Vethorel struggles to facilitate the retaking of Mars, as the other High Lords are in turmoil. Matters escalate until Vethorel is prepared to start a second civil war, Skitarii and Lucifer Blacks meeting in front of what remains of the Assembly Hall. Rogal Dorn arrives with a contingent of Fists, chastising Vethorel but reaffirming that even now, oaths are not to be broken. Vethorel leads the retaliation fleet from an Ark Mechanicus, but quickly finds the world is fortified to all but heavy bombardment, which would destroy important facilities. Vethorel uses her remaining infocytes to contact Lukas Chrom on the surface, and discovers Kelbor Hal’s council is divided between those who wish to flee and those who believe they can hold indefinitely.  Vethorel promises Chrom and his supporters amnesty if they assassinatel Kelbor Hal and end the siege. Kelbor Hal is apparently killed, but in fact possesses Chrom’s body. As the traitor Mechanicum fleet is escorted out of system by their loyalist allies, “Chrom” attempts to distribute scrapcode back into the forges, causing an explosive meltdown across the planet’s surface. Vethorel reveals she had conducted her own illegal experiments with heretek science, and turns the scrap-code back on them. Only a few traitor vessels manage to flee as their capital ships open fire on each other, destroying the entire Dark Mechanicum high command. Vethorel takes her seat as Fabricator General proper, and has her co-conspirators killed or transformed into servitors.

 

-

 

I legit think the Mechanicum's involvement with the Heresy has been the novel series' biggest missed opportunity. Their entire cast, sans Land, is completely original and expendable. There is so much you can do with that potential, especially with how politically vital the faction is. They're a window into Terra's politics as Horus advances, a source of some of the coolest concepts in the setting, and they constantly border on treason so the stakes remain pumped. Instead we get a bunch of side characters twiddling their thumbs despite controlling both sides of the war's supplies.

 

Each book consists of the rival Fabricator Generals trying to kill each other through their vast webs of operatives and technological resources. Be it through Vanus assassins, Mech-Assassins (Remiare), scrap code, reprogramming servitors, redirecting seemingly innocuous vehicles, etc, the threat is almost constant. Piled atop this for the loyalists is the constant struggle for status, honouring their religion and holy planet, and coordinating people who don't know what a Skitarius even is.

 

This constant pressure and lethality turns the duty-bound Vethorel into a mastermind with no scruples, to do any less would get her killed. With each passing catastrophe in her life she gets more ideas, and more motivation to use them. She moves from a purely reactive character to a Machiavelli who may have had the third book's events planned before it even started. She is forced to murder her confidants by the end of things, to do otherwise could risk retribution not only on her, but on all of Mars. 

 

Zagreus Kane leans more towards ADB's half-tank monster rather than the more human character in Mechanicum. The books need to establish what it takes to occupy his position, starting as an extreme contrast to Vethorel before she slowly changes into his archetype. Despite the ruthlessness that comes with the job, he does generally try to take a more preservative role. Further bloodshed is not his goal, and he's willing to make any compromise if it means retaking Sacred Mars.

 

Kelbor Hal never declares a "Dark Mechanicum," and starts positive with his "New Mechanicum." Hal is hardly a saint, but isn't quite as sadistic as he is in Mechanicum. Instead, knowledge is the means and the end. More knowledge justifies any action, any sacrifice, and any atrocity. By the end of the series, he's become convinced he's the Omnissiah's avatar, and that his council either has too many scruples, or are too caught up in how evil they are to ever replace him. He comes to believe that he is the seat of Martian religion, and that their holy planet will be anywhere he happens to occupy. If he's forced off Mars, no matter, he'll create a new one.

 

 

And that's it for my trilogies. I have a few standalone spinoff book ideas I'll drop some time in the future as well. Hope the ride was fun.

[b1soul]

I respectfully disagree. In general, opposites tend to repel. Commonalities and shared values tend to attract...in general.

 

Dorn and Khan already butted heads at Terra, though that doesn't mean they can't maintain a professional relationship as the Traitors bang down the gates. I don't think the IF and the WS would be making each other's ships disappear, but their values and temperaments fundamentally clash (I feel). They could complement each other in certain circumstances though, of course.

 

My opinion above states a general rule though, and there is plenty of room for exceptions...

 

Commonality could breed unfriendly competition (two head-strong legions with similar roles trying to one-up each other)

 

"Opposites" may complement each other...a more subservient personality paired with a more dominant personality could make for a more stable long-term partnership

 

IMO, I don't see any reason why the WS and RG should be particularly antagonistic toward each other based on their character traits (on a chapter level). Of course, it's a fictional setting and a good authour could pull almost anything off

[mc warhammer]

sure, i can see how that makes sense. person a likes x and so does person b, it only follows that they should like one another and get along. it seems nice and straight forward and logical. homophily is a thing.

 

but people and relationships are rarely logical, otherwise dating sites would be way more successful than they are.

 

heterophily is more common in fiction. take apart the vast majority of great character duos in film, tv, and novels - they don't tend to be two of the same. or even cut from the same cloth. not just because it rings true on a human level but also because it's more interesting for the audience.

 

i think we're both broadly saying that it depends just that we favour opposing sides. neither is a hard and fast rule. homophily works. heterophily works too. i tend to believe heterophily is the most dynamic for story reasons, which is something i've seen play out again and again.  often, it's not a matter of extremes...the two things can and should be overlapped. good characters are more complex and even inversions of one another can have common interests: person a can be wild and person b can be caged, and both really like donkeys.

 

i don't see any problems with the way the ws and if are portrayed so far. i think french did a great job of writing khan and dorn's relationship; they make sense in a contrapuntal way. reynolds went deeper into their different approaches to the same circumstances in "apocalypse".

 

with rg and ws? idk. depends on how it's written.

Edited May 14, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Fedor]

Yeah...every idea proposed in this thread contributes more value than Thorpe's shenanigans in Deliverance Lost. The man has some good ideas (e.g. Ashes of Prospero), but DL is not one of them (IMO of course) and his execution only exacerbates.

 

 

Personal opinion:

 

I'm not a huge fan of the RG vs.WS rivalry. I would make the WS and RG more like friendly chapters post-Heresy. Both the Khan and Corax are taciturn and intense and have a strong sense of justice rooted in the cultures of their homeworlds (Chogorian custom and Lycaean rebel morality). They hit hard and fast, with WS emphasising speed and RG emphasising stealth.

 

The old lore has WS and SW being buddies and WS and RG being rivals (the latter is still a fixture in more recent lore I believe). I would adjust that...

 

1. WS and RG never had the chance to campaign together during the GC or Heresy. During the Scouring, they work together and find that they get along quite well. Corax and Khan give each other room when they work together. These two chapters should get along IMO.

 

2. Khan and Russ never become truly "friendly", but Russ and Khan do work together during the Scouring like they promised each other at the end of Path of Heaven. Russ' more brash, dominating,and competitive personality and his preferred tactics (frontal shock assaults) are a source of manageable friction, but friction nonetheless, with the Khan. Clash of personality and doctrine. Some of the jarls and khans tend to get along better and find that their counterparts' ways are genuinely worthy of respect in quite a few areas.

 

If anything, I think the WS should have a less friendly relationship with the IF. You can see how their styles are radically different at the Siege. There is also very little common ground or potential points of bonding between Dorn and Khan.

 

EDIT: As I recall, Malcador says if Dorn is an exercise in rock-solid reliability and certainty, the Khan is an exercise in the opposite. Anyone recall which work this is?

 to be fair to Thorpe ( or the authors of books we dislike parts of in general) coming up with ideas that look thematically well done, deep and airtight plotwise as a quick hypothetical exercise or initial framework is very different from following through with a strong novel on them without things unravelling. It's possible the angle he took with raven guard started as something the authors all agreed was a very strong looking premise that seemed more thematically meaningful or stronger plotwise than it actually ended up being (assuming you dislike it). I doubt it was just " lets just get the alpha legion to troll everyone" sort of thing.

 

Except Abyss, which genuinely did seem like a quick filler one-sentence pitch to keep the series chugging along at a time when BL weren't as sure what to do with it, nor i imagine expected the backlash they would get for putting a simple battle side-story like that out there as part of the series.

[b1soul]

Well, Thorpe could've simply followed the established lore, which I feel is superior to DL. This is my personal feeling though

_____________

 

As for the the Dorn, Khan, Corax dynamic...yes, as with almost everything, it does depend.

 

The Primarch brotherhood is the equivalent of a testosterone-dripping warrior fraternity (and a fractious one at that).

 

Upon reflection, I think shared values and honour systems would probably be the strongest glue between two primarchs. I did not find the Fulgrim/Ferrus relationship to be very convincing...more like a plot device to heighten the tragedy. I think that's down to how McNeill writes.

 

That said, primarchs are multi-faceted and more than mere archetypes, so a strong authour could easily make any friendship or rivalry work. Dorn and Alpharius could be written convincingly as friends, for example.

[mc warhammer]

yeah, on paper i have no issues with ferrus and fulgrim (and it makes sense to me) but nothing in "fulgrim" made it work to my satisfaction other than maybe the myth of the two of them in weapon making comp. even then, the reader has to do a lot of the work.

 

the two books that did the most for bringing their relationship to life for me were "palatine phoenix" and "the gorgon of medusa". it's only after those that i felt i understood them.

[bluntblade]

To offer a mild critique, Roosmky, the Mechanicum is another point where I'm not sure linear trilogies are the best fit.

 

I'd keep the core events of Mars, but in subsequent books I'd zero in on events on Forge Worlds elsewhere. Particularly I'd be keen to focus on factions such as Mezoa and Cyclothrathe - unorthodox strains of the Machine God faith, which could be fertile ground on which to explore the divisions which riddle it.

 

Perhaps also have a campaigning Taghmata, like that of Satarael serving Horus.

Edited May 14, 2020 by bluntblade

[Roomsky]

To offer a mild critique, Roosmky, the Mechanicum is another point where I'm not sure linear trilogies are the best fit.

 

I'd keep the core events of Mars, but in subsequent books I'd zero in on events on Forge Worlds elsewhere. Particularly I'd be keen to focus on factions such as Mezoa and Cyclothrathe - unorthodox strains of the Machine God faith, which could be fertile ground on which to explore the divisions which riddle it.

 

Perhaps also have a campaigning Taghmata, like that of Satarael serving Horus.

 

I disagree a linear story doesn't fit; their importance never dwindles, even on Terra. They're a major driving force in the Heresy and it's unreasonable to want to know what their leadership is doing.

 

What I do agree with is there's a lot of potential for stories on other forge worlds and planets. While I have my self-imposed limits, there's an equel if not more amount of potential for good stories elsewhere. I believe that is an area the novel series failed at as well; they should be getting their own tales with marines as supporting characters, but the novel series gave us almost exclusively the opposite.

[bluntblade]

That's very true, though I would personally hew to Kelbor-Hal being a bit nastier as he's a product of Old Night and such.

 

My preference for a sprawl with a bit more focus would mainly have the Mechanicum featuring more in other stories. I like the idea of having a story based around Anvillus' civil war.

[Roomsky]

And as a coda, a few things I’d be pleased to see in spinoff novels:

 

Nemesis

Malcador assembles a team of assassins, Vinicare, Vanus, and Eversor (the only 3 clades presently existing), to assassinate Maloghurst. A new breed of assassin is developed, the Culexus, to counter his psychic powers. They fail, the survivors returning to Terra with valuable intelligence on the Sons’ movements, and their research into a new, shapeshifting assassin type.

 

Divinitatus

Keeler and the surviving remembrancers from the Vengeful Spirit spread throughout Terra, working to convince the masses of the Emperor’s divinity. All the while, they are pursued by Malcador’s Knights Errant. While many of the original cadre is killed off, their numbers spread too quickly to quell them all.

 

The Keys of Hel

Crius and other revenants seek their own revenge after Isstvan V, viewing Meduson as too soft, and his followers as having lost the strength in Iron. They ally with Autek Morr and assist in dropping a moon on Bodt, but when their practices come to light, are driven back into the void.

 

Divine Retribution (Titans 1)

On the planet of Molech, House Divine is corrupted by Slaaneshi cults and casts off the yolk of Imperial rule. Legio Solaria is deployed to destroy the turncoats, but the war stalemates with heavy losses on both sides. Each legion is called to conquer other worlds, the survivors swear vengeance.

 

Titandeath (Titans 2)

A top-to-bottom view of the Beta Garmon conflict, from baseline guardsmen to the God Engines. Legio Solaria attempts to get revenge on House Divine, all the while trying to avoid the colossal Dies Irae. The heads of House Divine are killed, but their survivors claim the win as Horus is victorious.

 

Blackshield

Endryd Harr leads a small band of traitor Blackshields, striking out where they can. They strike at any traitor force within reach, from his former World Eater Kinsman to the Sons of Horus himself. They set their sites on the Sons of Horus high command, beginning with 13^th company captain Luc Sedirae.

 

I’m not too familiar with the Forge World fluff, but I’m sure AdMech characters like Scoria and Decima are ripe for novel topics.

 

I’d also want to see a Scouring brand once the Heresy was finished. Funnily enough, I think the structure used by the existing novel series would work best here. Go roughly chronologically, but the pool you can pull stories from is so wide there’s no point trying to make it especially coherent. It’s here where we can start focussing on new chapter masters (Amit, Corvo, Rann, etc.) and the more famous traitors rising to power (Ahriman, Lucius, Khârn, etc.). In the same continuity as the novels I’ve outlined, any previous protagonists appearing would be used as a lesson in the old ways fading, falling by the wayside as these new characters take the reigns.

 

And Skalathrax would get an actual novel because damnit BL what are you doing?

Edited May 14, 2020 by Roomsky

[bluntblade]

Aside from the Webway War, I wonder if a second Word Bearers book would be the point where Layak should be introduced, and we see the proper fallout from Lorgar's falling-out with Erebus and Kor Phaeron.