World Eaters / Chaos Melee

[techsoldaten]

Consider this thread the flip side of the NuMarines thread from a couple months ago. Instead of talking about what works against NuMarines, this is about how to make mid-range armies work for Chaos again.

 

Chaos has traditionally been a mid-range army that relies on 24" shooting and powerful close combat units to win games. The current meta has changed that paradigm, either the majority of melee power is concentrated in a single unit (i.e. a Possessed Bomb), a gunline, or a small set of elite HQs. While effective, these approaches to list building feel a little gimmicky and fragile. A single FAQ or points change could disrupt any list and make it unplayable.

 

While I have a long wish-list of things I'd like to see for the specific units, what I'd really like to talk about is game design and mechanics. Given the current meta, what are the tweaks to 8th edition rules that would compensate for some of the pitfalls common to mid-range armies? Over the last year, I've playtested and houseruled a number of changes to mechanics that might be useful and want to share some thoughts about them.

 

Also, my comments will be limited to World Eaters. WE have built-in disadvantages, they have no PSYCHIC phase and their main unit - Berzerkers - have very limited SHOOTING. These are important parts of the game, by focusing on them I hope to better illuminate the possibilities. Some of the items discussed may be generalized to other Legions, others not.

 

Without further ado... the game design changes I'd make break down into a short list of categories.

 

UNITS

 

Berzerkers are the most powerful melee unit for World Eaters. They fight twice. While this is a major advantage, it's situational (they have to survive long enough to get into combat) and it's subject to overkill. Berzerkers have to cross the table to get into combat, then they have to find another unit to fight once they finish one off. 

 

Given these constraints, it could be argued Berzerkers are likely to get into combat less than once per game. Some of their units will be wiped out before they get there. For others, they will find someone to charge, destroy them, and not be able to fight against another before the game ends.

 

Were I a game designer, I would create the following faction specific rule: fight twice applies to Berzerkers, Possessed, Raptors, and Warp Talons, or any infantry unit that doesn't have a shooting option > 12". I would consider applying it to Chaos Lords, Masters of Execution and Warpsmiths as well.

 

The logic is simple: the melee superiority compensates for the lack of shooting in an army that favors melee. It's a trade off that balances the game. While other factions lack good shooting, they don't have the identical points structure to other Legions.

 

PSYCHIC

 

World Eaters lack a psychic phase. They particularly hate psychics.

 

Were I a game designer, to compensate, I would allow any WE unit 1 deny per turn. I would allow HQs 2 denys per turn. I would have an artifact that allows increases the deny range by 12".

 

The logic here is simple: this compensates for the lack of psychic. Make it fluffy, say they are so terrifying they can disrupt powers before they manifest.

 

STRATAGEMS

 

Stratagems, for the most part, affect a single unit. Pure melee armies are a little different, they rely on fast moving units that hit hard in combat. They would not optimize their tactics to buff specific units, they would optimize around ones that improve the offensive output of the army.

 

Were I a game designer, I would modify World Eater stratagems so that:

 

- they have an area of affect

- they apply to multiple units

- they affect units in multiple phases of the turn

 

Thinking about Da WAAGGH here. When a warboss lets one out, this ability affects the entire army. For World Eaters, I would have 4 core abilities available through Stratagems: one that increases the advance range, one that allows rerolls to charge, one that gives rerolls to wounds, and one that increases saving throws or gives them FNP.

 

The logic is: these increase the likelihood any World Eaters unit will make it into combat. For any mid-range army to work, it needs to have mechanics tailored to overcoming the deficits that go along with it. Stratagems are an important method for accomplishing this, better than abilities. Giving the player the option for when to trigger these abilities means game designers encourage a variety of different play styles.

 

That's it for now, would love some feedback.

[Irate Khornate]

Honestly, I don't think tweaks will help CSM. I remember reading a post a while back where summoning didn't cost points in a house-rule game, psychic powers were AOE, and a few others that were all pretty much to make CSM perform better.

 

They still lost the game.

 

I remember it being close, but even with all those house-rules they still lost. This just isn't our edition. This isn't a basic marine edition.

 

Honestly I've grown to hate stratagems. Some are honestly useless and will never see the light of day unless it's an extremely niche situation. Then there are stratagems that are just insanely good and are must haves. Then there are those absurd niche stratagems that absolutely demolish a 3rd of the general categories of 40k armies. (I swear if I have to fight another baneblade or variation of that has Vengeance for Cadia used on it every turn it's alive ever again I'll flip the table and take the moral victory.) I would rather have more built in special rules than more stratagems.

[Panzer]

Honestly, I don't think tweaks will help CSM. I remember reading a post a while back where summoning didn't cost points in a house-rule game, psychic powers were AOE, and a few others that were all pretty much to make CSM perform better.

 

They still lost the game.

 

I remember it being close, but even with all those house-rules they still lost. This just isn't our edition. This isn't a basic marine edition.

 

Honestly I've grown to hate stratagems. Some are honestly useless and will never see the light of day unless it's an extremely niche situation. Then there are stratagems that are just insanely good and are must haves. Then there are those absurd niche stratagems that absolutely demolish a 3rd of the general categories of 40k armies. (I swear if I have to fight another baneblade or variation of that has Vengeance for Cadia used on it every turn it's alive ever again I'll flip the table and take the moral victory.) I would rather have more built in special rules than more stratagems.

 

If I recall that match had subpar lists and a few other issues so it's not really a good reference.

[MegaVolt87]

The fact NL can lock units into melee and still take zerkers, I would argue they are better at melee. Same with the AL, harder to hit, deployment shenanigans etc. The old melee rules were powerful, if we had those and this editions shooting, we would be in a good place IMO. Also its never been our edition since 3rd edition lol.

[techsoldaten]

Honestly, I don't think tweaks will help CSM. I remember reading a post a while back where summoning didn't cost points in a house-rule game, psychic powers were AOE, and a few others that were all pretty much to make CSM perform better.

 

They still lost the game.

 

I remember it being close, but even with all those house-rules they still lost. This just isn't our edition. This isn't a basic marine edition.

 

Honestly I've grown to hate stratagems. Some are honestly useless and will never see the light of day unless it's an extremely niche situation. Then there are stratagems that are just insanely good and are must haves. Then there are those absurd niche stratagems that absolutely demolish a 3rd of the general categories of 40k armies. (I swear if I have to fight another baneblade or variation of that has Vengeance for Cadia used on it every turn it's alive ever again I'll flip the table and take the moral victory.) I would rather have more built in special rules than more stratagems.

That post about the house rules may have been one of mine.

 

Yeah, the point is not just to suggest a set of tweaks, but to think about this from the standpoint of game design. What mechanics could be changed to make mid-range armies more competitive.

 

World Eaters had the least impressive updates in Psychic Awakening and I think it comes back to a set of principles: Stratagems only apply to a single unit, other infantry doesn't really benefit from special rules to compensate for the lack of psychic and shooting, and they are too vulnerable to psychic powers. If someone really wanted them to work with the current ruleset, it would require an overhaul in these areas.

 

Here are examples of what I mean:

 

- Non-HQ INFANTRY could all get the fight twice ability of Berzerkers. It's kind of weak to think Berzerkers can't strap on a jetpack and do their thing, or that tapping into Possession means they lose it, or that Chosen - who are supposed to be the elite - don't have it at all.

 

- There could be a Stratagem that gives every unit a 6+d6 advance. That way, you're not just offering up a Judas Goat to get shot off the board, you're presenting a real threat to opponents on multiple fronts. Plus you decide when to use it, it's not just this ability that's there every turn.

 

- Giving every unit one deny per turn would go a long way to counter the advantage of the other side dominating this entire phase. Plus it would be fluffy.

 

It would be fine to run this as a set of house rules, I'm sure someone would have an enjoyable game. My point is that a change to the mechanics of the game would be necessary to present any kind of a threat to competitive armies.

[Cheex]

I've only played a handful of casual games since Faith & Fury - two against GSC and one against new-codex Ultramarines - and all of them were pretty convincing wins for my World Eaters. Not saying they're competitive, only that they feel "right" for a casual meta.

 

I do agree that it's a shame that BFTBG is limited to just Berzerkers, Khârn and Red Butchers. This sort of disparity between units has been an ongoing issue since the 4e codex, and was resolved for about 6 months when the Traitor Legions book came out at the end of 7th, only to be obsoleted by 8th edition.

 

Personally, if I were to write a World Eaters codex, I'd remove BFTBG from all units (bear with me here), and give Berzerkers a more similar statline to CSM (again, bear with me). Any model would be able to exchange a bolt pistol or chainsword for a chainaxe, and the Icon of Wrath just adds +1" to advances and charges rather than giving rerolls.

 

Replace the current Legion Trait with: a WORLD EATERS unit that charges, is charged or performs a heroic intervention adds 1 to their Attacks and Strength characteristics for the duration of that turn. Units with this trait can also reroll charge rolls.

 

Then, if the army contains at least one WORLD EATERS detachment (other than Auxiliary Support) and only contains KHORNE units, then the player can use the Blood Tithe ability.

 

At the start of each battle round, the player gains a number of Blood Tithe points equal to the battle round number and spends them immediately on any combination of abilities from the below list. Any points not spent are lost. The abilities apply to all friendly KHORNE units.

 

Ideas for 1pt abilities:

• All units gain 6+ FNP 
• All INFANTRY, BIKE, MONSTER, HELBRUTE and DAEMON ENGINE units count as rolling a 6 when advancing, and count as rolling a minimum of 6 when rolling charge distances

Ideas for 2pt abilities:

• All units gain BFTBG
• All units gain +1 attack and +1 strength on their profile
• All units can heroically intervene as if they were CHARACTERS
• All units can automatically pass Morale checks

Ideas for 3pt abilities:

• Gain 3D6 x 10 points as Reinforcement Points to be used for Daemonic Ritual that round. These are lost if not used this round.
• Pick one unit in your army; that unit regains either 1 model that has been removed as a casualty, or regains D3 wounds that have been lost during the game
• etc etc

These are all off the top of my head while at work, so are not balanced or anything but you get the idea. It's intended to give all units the "feel" of being World Eaters, while also introducing a mechanic reminiscent of Combat Tactics. It's also intentional that you'd be able to represent a Khorne Daemonkin army, but without the bookkeeping of 6/7e. 

 

The idea is that early game, the abilities will help your units survive long enough and/or move fast enough to reach combat. Mid-game, you pump up your army so that they can rip and tear. And then in mid-game, be able to reinforce your army to maintain that momentum.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Cheex

[Relentless]

For Berzerkers specifically, I think they should either be given an extra wound or a FNP.  One, this would help them better survive first turn and get up the board, and two it would actually be a good rule to match their fluff: being crazed berzerkers driven by the nails to shrug off their wounds and kill the enemy.  Also, it blows my mind they cant advance and charge when that's exactly their whole thing lore-wise, and given that there are already several units in the game that can do this.

[dice4thedicegod]

We do have the stratagem for a pregame move. And advancing and charging is really the red corsairs schtick at the moment.

 

I think it’s tricky... adding an extra wound to Berzerkers may be counterproductive if they go up in points significantly. Maybe a wulfen-like ability to fight after being killed?

[Relentless]

Hmm, my problem with the pregame move strat is that they're almost always going to be in rhinos to start the game and thus unable to use it.  And the wulfen ability would only be helpful for when they make it into combat range.  You do have a point with the increased cost that would surely come with the extra wound, i guess it would just have to depend on how much an increase it would be and if it'd be worth it.  Maybe the built-in FNP would better?

[dice4thedicegod]

Because of the rhino issue, I keep planning to use the Pregame move strat with mutilators anyway!

 

I guess we’ll have to wait and see!

[Schurge]

I've always thought that Chaos is supposed to be a more elite army and that is generally reflected in the fluff. I would be fine with a points increase for my Berserkers if that meant they started playing like a halfway point between Primaris and Custodes. In the books you have <100 man strong groups of World Eaters taking entire planets on their own. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

If you put a FNP on berserkers what's the point of plague marines then? That's their gimmick. All the cult marines should go to 2w for only a point or so more.