Book 9 appears to be on U.S. soil

[SkimaskMohawk]

But here's the thing, most of his strength is during duels. When he's not in a challenge he doesn't get rerolls, he doesn't get instant death and he doesn't force rerolls on invul. You decline the challenge and you drop from 2.4 wounds through a 4++ to 1.3 and if those are justaerin or other multiwound models it's a difference of 4 points of combat res.

 

A digital weapon/paragon/fist praetor does 1.5 wounds through a 4++ with blade or or 1.9 with fist (which will kill unlike sigismunds non-challenge attacks). He also kills more 3+ with 3 blade/3.8 fist vs. Sigismund 2.7. And it's 50 points cheaper. And can get a much better warlord trait.

 

He's overcosted.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

I think that Sigismund might be somehow overcosted but it's not as simple. A generic praetor with extra 2 attacks from digi and 2 weapons will often be better than named characters at blending infantry. This is not a flaw inherent to him, many of the unique charcters are nowhere near as impressive out of duel - guys like Corswain, Sevatar (as Precognition is fickle), Polux, Loken, Roboute or Perturabo come to mind but they bring something unique to the game. Other characters like Raldoron or Khârn have enough attacks to perform well in both duel and regular fights when compared to kitted praetor. 

 

Sigismund suffers hard from not being in a challenge but to dismiss him so easily seem not right. Out of duel he stops being a damage dealer and starts to be a tank of sorts - 4W with Eternal Warrior takes some time to chew through, probably only beaten by Salamanders 3++ with EW on 3 wounds. He only dies on av. after 8 wounds from a fist compared to normal praetor only 2 - those Justaerin will just smear normal praetor at first chance with their IDing Fists. And while he is not a real buffer, I think very highly of his Death's Champion rule, as +1 I on the charge for the unit can really turn the tide of the fight and rerolls on charge and sweeps can also prove to be crucial. Oh, and he is Fearless which is well, quite rare.

 

But I agree, he could be cheaper. I'd be up to lowering his cost, preferably giving him a buff more in exchange for EW, maybe make his warlord trait something more appealing. I don't feel like EW is really fair as it is such a game changer. I'd much rather leave it for Primarchs and give Sallies, Sigi, Rhy'tan etc something a tad weaker, like counting ID for 2 wounds, along with a price discount.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Lautrec the Embraced

[b1soul]

You'd have to remove it from the Nemean and Tribunes as well.

 

Short of Primarchs and Custodes, Sigismund is the ultimate character slayer...that's what he should be.

 

Has anyone rigorously run the odds of Sigismund vs. the new Sevatar?

Based on a prior post, it looks like the former would typically edge the latter with one wound left or somesuch?

 

Of all the characters, I do think Abaddon is in desperate need of a buff.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

You'd have to remove it from the Nemean and Tribunes as well.

Short of Primarchs and Custodes, Sigismund is the ultimate character slayer...that's what he should be.

Has anyone rigorously run the odds of Sigismund vs. the new Sevatar?

Based on a prior post, it looks like the former would typically edge the latter with one wound left or somesuch?

Of all the characters, I do think Abaddon is in desperate need of a buff.

Yes, Abaddon is the one who really need help.

 

I would treat all Tribunes, Reaver, Praetors in that weaker EW regard all the same. It's too big a difference. We lack mechanics where something deals 2 wounds, here it's either 1 or all of them thanks to ID.

Math wise Sevatar vs Sigi is not even difficult - without charges, even assuming Sev gets all his possible buffs (Talent, Precog, +1 Attack from new RoW) he's dealing 1.97 unsaved wound.

Sigi with his 4 attacks hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.08 and under the assumption that their reroll cancels out Night lord is dead 1.04 times. But Sev has higher I thanks to his new weapon so if you can accumulate all the buffs and somehow find yourself not dying 1st round, you'd have a fair chance to kill Sig on the second round.

 

I don't think Sig should be weaker. I just don't like the fact that when Primarchs fight, it can take a good chunk of the game. But when absolute monsters of the Praetors fight, it's 1 turn probably thanks to irregular Instant death and some game changing Eternal warrior. I'd much rather have such strong combatants somehow canceling their abilities out and have them joust over few turns.

[Charlo]

Sigismund is the best fighter in all of the Legiones Astartes. 99.9% Fact.

 

When you take Chaos power buffs into consideration... It gets murkier but we aren't there in the Heresy game yet...

 

I'm fine with his EW, it makes him unique.

 

Otherwise, I think the only other Preator-level characters that deserves it is Abaddon - instead he has the weird "doesn't die in a campaign" rule and frankly terrible equipment. Man needs a Paragon blade or something too.

 

BUT that's not really on-topic here.

 

Corswain and Sevetar feel right in terms of power, they should rightly curb stomp most other unnamed IC's.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Sigismund beats him in the first round if he charges. Now 4 attacks comes out to 1.94 wounds before saves, so just for arguments sake we'll say he needs two rounds to guarantee the kill if he doesn't charge.

 

If sevatar charges with precog he'll inflict 2.5 wounds before he dies. If he charges in a Cross of Bones with precog he'll do 3 before dying. If he charges and has aTfM, Cross of Bones and precog he'll do 4.6 wounds and manage to kill sigismund before the he strikes in round 2.

 

Now, even if I had all three buffs up I'd personally expect to die in the first round, 1.94 is just too close to a full wound through. But it's good to know it's possible and to have the math give you an option if you need to clutch it out.

 

@lautrec I think your math is off. Sigismund only rerolls 1s to hit and hits sevatar on 4s he should only get 2.33 hits off 4 attacks.

Edited September 15, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk

[Aeternus]

Aye in my previous calculations I forgot the reroll 1s sigi gets in challenges, so as skimask included pushes another .33 hits in.

 

How would people feel about giving Sigismund (and a handful of others, defo Abaddon, probably not sevatar) a sort of half strength eternal warrior, give it a fancy name with the effect that 'instant death attacks deal 2 wounds/reduce this model to half its total wounds rounding down' with an appropriate point reduction for Sigismund?

[Indefragable]

 

I don't think Sig should be weaker. I just don't like the fact that when Primarchs fight, it can take a good chunk of the game. But when absolute monsters of the Praetors fight, it's 1 turn probably thanks to irregular Instant death and some game changing Eternal warrior. I'd much rather have such strong combatants somehow canceling their abilities out and have them joust over few turns.

 

 

^this. 40,000x this.

 

My beef with Siggy is not that he's so good, but that he's so far ahead of others and pretty much the only one. He should be the single best fighter/duellist outside of Primarchs in the game. Nothing wrong with that. But close the gap between him and others a bit more, as the update to Sev seems to be a move in the right direction. As @Lautrec so nicely put, even Larger vs Russ/Horus will last a few rounds an feel like a title bout....but Sigismund pretty much one shots even someone like Sev or Abaddon or Ral who are all also supposed to be at least in the same ballpark. Any of those Big Four, let alone Corswain, Khan, Eidolon, and Jubal (if we ever get rules for him) should neutralize each other in a duel in the same way that Primarchs do: even if your dude is gonna lose, you can at least take the other guy out of the game for a few turns by tying him up in a Challenge. 

 

The binary nature of EW and ID in general irk me, though I will admit to being a fan of 8th/9th's AP system since it's more granular and gradual rather than exponential between values. 

[Indefragable]

Aye in my previous calculations I forgot the reroll 1s sigi gets in challenges, so as skimask included pushes another .33 hits in.

 

How would people feel about giving Sigismund (and a handful of others, defo Abaddon, probably not sevatar) a sort of half strength eternal warrior, give it a fancy name with the effect that 'instant death attacks deal 2 wounds/reduce this model to half its total wounds rounding down' with an appropriate point reduction for Sigismund?

 

Personally, I would love something like this, but I'm on record as loving granularity rather than all-or-nothing rulesets.

[Slips]

As much as Im ok with the EW discussion and the implications it has re: Siggy because I use him in like 75% of my games, I think its better off being split off into its own topic in the Rules Section.

[Brofist]

Well, in the threads defense, calling him bad for his points was a pretty hot take

[Indefragable]

Back on topic <apologies for my part and straying off course*> .....

 

 

...am I reading too much into this or are some of the RoW's for DA particularly good at countering other Legions? 

 

-Stormwing vs Night Lords (don't get outnumbered, bury an upgrade Centurion in each squad)

-Firewing vs Word Bearers or other formations that rely on characters

-Dreadwing vs White Scars or Emperor's Children?

 

 

 

 

*but in all fairness, what is the topic? Book 9 does indeed appear to be on US soil <looks out window at American flag, looks at Book 9 in my own two hands>

Edited September 16, 2020 by Indefragable

[Marshal Rohr]

There’s not a lot of traffic so we kinda just discussed the book in a thread from a while ago :D

[b1soul]

I think discussion of Sigismund's rules in the context of his performance relative to the newly upgraded Sevatar...is relevant to this thread.

 

The Sig vs. Sev Mathhammer doesn't seem to be worded in a way expressing the probability though. It sounds more based on calculating the expected value (wounds) being exchanged per round and then declaring a winner based on that? Isn't that a bit misleading?

[Bung]

I think discussion of Sigismund's rules in the context of his performance relative to the newly upgraded Sevatar...is relevant to this thread.

 

The Sig vs. Sev Mathhammer doesn't seem to be worded in a way expressing the probability though. It sounds more based on calculating the expected value (wounds) being exchanged per round and then declaring a winner based on that? Isn't that a bit misleading?

No, its with what would happen with average dice rolls.

But lady luck is a moody godess.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

@lautrec I think your math is off. Sigismund only rerolls 1s to hit and hits sevatar on 4s he should only get 2.33 hits off 4 attacks.

I can't believe the Black Sword ia not master crafted. Thanks for the correction.

 

I'd say buffed out Sevatar is as close as you could be to defeating Sigismund without some mechanic like Severing Cut. If only you somehow survive 1st round it's all possible.

 

 

The Sig vs. Sev Mathhammer doesn't seem to be worded in a way expressing the probability though. It sounds more based on calculating the expected value (wounds) being exchanged per round and then declaring a winner based on that? Isn't that a bit misleading?

I run down some calculations and in the best possible scenario for the Night Lord - charge, Cross of Bone bonus attack, triggered Talent for Murder, succesful Precognition - he deals 6 attacks hitting on rerollable 3+,  wounding on rerollable 2+, and has to go through 4++.

Percentage of him pushing at least 4 wounds after inv is according to my mathhammer:

 

22.648%

 

This happens at higher I than Sig so there is always a chance to kill him first.

It's very easy to make a mistake in this calculation so you might treat it with a grain of salt.

[Sparika]

Received the book and I'm kinda disappointed by the rites of war.

They are nice and all, but the only one easily deployable is the deathwing one which is basically a pride of the legion row. On the other hand, I was really interested in the stormwing rite of war as the mechanism of adding a centurion with order seemed quite fun. However, the restriction to field are quite harsh in my opinion. You need to have more tactical/assault squad than the total number of other units in the detachment. And only full 20-man strong units can benefits from the rite. So basically, you need something like 80 marines to field next to one HQ, one elite, one fast attack, one heavy support.

 

Any thought on that subject ?

[Ficinus]

The fact that only the two twenty man squads can get the bonus centurions is really disappointing.  The rite would be more interesting if any 20-man tactical or assault squad could have one.  And, yeah, two 20 man squads plus four 10 man squads allows for 5 other units, one of which has to be the model with Master of the Legion, one of which you'd probably want to be an apothecarion detachment for those 20 man squads.  The only thing it offers, really, is the orders, since with the extreme limits on units, you're probably not going to have 3 HQs, probably not even 2, so you're probably not going to have bonus characters from the centurion thing...  Probably in centurion mode of play this rite has some legs?  Maybe even ZM (sure you can't get 20 man squads, but being able to round a corner and fury of the legion with 15 guys is powerful, especially if those bolter shells get rending from void combat)?

[Marshal Rohr]

If you take a mortificator and 5 Contemptor Cortus you boost your anti tank and have 3 units remaining from maxing out your troops. You can also take 10 Dreadwing Companions with your Master of the Legion as one slot.

[Indefragable]

Yea upon 2nd reading of Stormwing RoW, it's far less cool than my first impression.

 

I thought it meant that you could basically get a Centurion for free (as in outside of HQ slots) for each Tactical blob you took. The restrictions seem to imply that was meant, but the specific rules on the top half don't say so explicitly. Also not allowing any upgrades to these Consuls is pretty dumb (though I get that it could get nuts from a balance perspective)....just having the Orders does not justify it on its own.

[Erren]

It’s so close to being practical. Allow the Centurions for all troop squads of 15+, include breachers, and drop the Scion cost to 15. It’d be nice to also drop the “more than” requirement to a “more or equal to”, but that’s probably not necessary.

[Ficinus]

I'm cool with the Centurions not being consuls, they're just supposed to be lieutenants or something, but I want to be able to take 4 of them, not just 2. Also making it 15+ would be nice for ZM.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

It'd be cool to just see a Lieutenant unit that'd fill that role universally (without taking away the Rite's orders stuff) - an HQ slot that's 1-3 characters which have to be attached to units akin to Apothecaries, and give leadership boosts as well as allowing for some limited Centurion-grade gear

 

I mean, *I'll* make rules for them but it'd be neat as an official unit

[Marshal Rohr]

I’ve wanted FW to make Troops choices across all the factions like Solar Auxilia Tercios for a while. 0-1 Centurion (not consul), 0-1 Apothecary, 1-3 Assault, Breacher, or Tactical Squads with the Option to replace 1 of the 3 Squads with a Tactical Support Squad. So you could have 2 Tactical Squads and a Plasma Gun Squad, or 2 Breacher Squads and an Assault Squad. Apothecary and Centurion must have a Breacher Shield or Jump Pack if all squads are the same.

 

If I had my way every squad type would come like that. Moritat and 1-3 Squads of Destroyers. Warmonger/Champion and 1-3 Veteran or Terminator Squads. Legion Elites taking the place of Vet/Terminator Squads. Would them to rework Rites into stronger benefits/drawbacks.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I’ve wanted FW to make Troops choices across all the factions like Solar Auxilia Tercios for a while. 0-1 Centurion (not consul), 0-1 Apothecary, 1-3 Assault, Breacher, or Tactical Squads with the Option to replace 1 of the 3 Squads with a Tactical Support Squad. So you could have 2 Tactical Squads and a Plasma Gun Squad, or 2 Breacher Squads and an Assault Squad. Apothecary and Centurion must have a Breacher Shield or Jump Pack if all squads are the same.

 

If I had my way every squad type would come like that. Moritat and 1-3 Squads of Destroyers. Warmonger/Champion and 1-3 Veteran or Terminator Squads. Legion Elites taking the place of Vet/Terminator Squads. Would them to rework Rites into stronger benefits/drawbacks.

 

I wonder if you could do this without having to restructure the whole list via a Rite? Allowing for up to say, 5 HQs (like the new NL biker RoW), and for each Consul from a certain list, you can select three units for a single FoC slot, all of which gain a specific rule (and lose the support squad rule). Maybe drawbacks requiring you to fill your compulsory Troops slots with these "Sections", said Consuls have to remain attached to one of the units in their Section and you can't have more non-infantry units in the list than you have units within Sections. In terms of how to group the units, troops is probably a good starting point, so just to spitball:

 

• Each standard Centurion allows you to take 2-3 Tactical Squads as a single Troops slot, one of which can be replaced with a Tactical Support Squad
• Each Siege Breaker Consul allows you to take 2-3 Breacher Squads as a single Troops slot, one of which can be replaced with a Rapier Battery
• Each Champion Consul allows you to take 2-3 Assault Squads as a single Troops slot, one of which can be replaced with a Destroyer Squad (with Jump Packs)
• Each Armistos Consul allows you to take 2-3 Tactical Support Squads as a single Troops slot, one of which can be replaced with a Heavy Support Squad
• Each Vigilator Consul allows you to take 2-3 Reconnaissance Squads as a single Troops slot, one of which can be replaced with a Seeker Squad

In terms of the rule each Section gains (probably only while their associated Consul is still alive), figuring out the right power level would be important, as well as making sure you're not doubling up on any rules from a given version of Legiones Astartes.