Is grimdark changing?

[Ahzek451]

I came across this video today and while not the best way to discuss the topic, it did poke my curiosity.

 

https://youtu.be/yzV2nrJIaTA]https://youtu.be/yzV2nrJIaTA

Basically discusses how some of the new artwork and material geared toward kids is affecting the grimdark 40k aesthetic. I've not personally looked into the kid books or any of this, but I'm curious if this is a thing? I'm curious if grimdark will ever go away or if GW will fall into the world of SJW controversy that Hollywood has been going through. Is anyone worried? Or is this guy off his rocker? Edited April 28, 2020 by Brother Tyler
Monetized video, link changed to code

[Lord_Caerolion]

References to "Soy infiltration", this can only be a truly nuanced and intelligent discussion in this video...

 

EDIT: To provide some actual discussion, Grimdark is absolutely going nowhere. Just look at some of the recent releases from Black Library, and you'll see that Terra mass-produces human skin to make their books, or the Imperium absolutely being on the losing side in the Imperium Nihilus shown in Spear of the Emperor.

Sure, they have kids books, but Bloodbowl used to have races playing not-gridiron and praying to "Nuffel" (NFL), so it's not like the history of the game has always been stern-faced seriousness with nothing of whimsy and silliness.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[DuskRaider]

*Sigh*

 

I expect this to be closed quickly since the 'Death of Hope' thread in News & Rumors quickly devolved into mud slinging and general bickering.

 

No, GW and 40K in general are not becoming too 'PC' or 'progressive'. This argument is stupid. Is it becoming more family friendly? Maybe a bit, but that's not entirely a bad thing. I think it's actually becoming more Herohammer (ie, it's focusing on Mary Sues and heroic feats ridiculous even for the setting) which started with the whole Mat Ward debacle back in 5th Edition. I do believe that GW is also attempting to market the main line toward a more diverse (as in age group) crowd and become more mainstream than they have been historically. 

 

That doesn't mean they've completely abandoned the whole 'grimdark' thing. FW is still kinda moving along with 30K, although it has slowed a bit since the unfortunate loss of Alan Bligh and the general reshuffling of the company altogether (and the loss of some of heir better sculptors). Necromunda has plenty of grimdarkness still and really, anything that has been lost by the company has been picked up in various mediums by the fans themselves. 

 

While it is an interesting discussion that I think could be delved into much more, the video doesn't really help with it. It's just more collectivism masquerading as an honest discussion.

[Bryan Blaire]

To determine if "grimdark" was changing, there would have to be a definition of what it was in the first place - 40K has been tonally changing since its introduction if you ask me. Since hobbyists define things based on when they got into the game, the elements that influenced them the most strongly, etc., I'd think that a lot of that is going to come down to point of view.

 

As the OP, Azhek451, why did you not provide your opinion on the video you posted? Does the material in the video hold water for you, or is it hoakum? Do you feel like "grimdark" is changing, and what are the hallmarks of it to you?

[Ahzek451]

I dont really have an opinion, that's why I'm asking questions. Yes the video is over the top, but it was leading into a more civil discussion on if GW will ever be changing grimdark. Most likely slowly if at all. I'm frankly ignorant on how the majority of 40k players feel about the kid comics. Normally I wouldnt care, but I've overheard conversations related to this at local stores as well as seeing a few YouTube videos. Was just curious to know more from part of the community. But as I suspected, it doesnt seem to be a concern.

[Lord_Caerolion]

EDIT: Nope, decided I'm sticking out of this for now.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[RikuEru]

Changing? Yes, maybe. With more and more models and more and more hobbyists and respective styles SEEN on the Internet, it might feel like it changes.

 

There are some who go for the Browns and Greys, making every conversion look intricate and complicated beyond reason (in a good way), for the Blanchitsu style.

Some go for the 3-colour Battle ready standard.

Others give their models almost hyper-realistic paintjobs, with weatheribg, rust, oil streaks, etc. based on reference photos of real life machines and tanks and ships.

Again another group of people paint the newest Models (Primaris for example) in old 1st/2nd Edition Paintjobs complete with goblin green bases and static grass flock.

And then there are personal styles or conversions that differ even more...

 

Same goes for Black Library Books and Codices and stuff.

We still have over-the-top ridiculous Hero Stories (Ragnar vs Ghaz), but also gruesome details (especially the short blurbs in the side bars for example).

 

This carries over to playstyles.

Some wqnt the nitty gritty handful of characters bashing it out (Necromunda, Killteam), others want HUGE battles in scale, with dozens of vehicles and knights and batallions of Marines (Armageddon).

Some want to go for the almost mathematical approach of bare bones Tournament gaming, stripping down rules to their barest meanings to make the most out of them.

Then there are those who have very detailed and characteristic narrative Armies, who want to play on games on fitting battlefields against enemy forces that make narrative sense, make missions of their own, that change during the battle, with introduction texts or in-universe documents to help you immerse into the scene.

Others just want to drink a cold beer with the lads and throw at each other whatever they currently fancy on the kitchen table.

 

 

Same with fanmade content.

We have Bolter-to-kokoro, Bruva Alfabusa making "If the Emperor had a text to speech device" and related stuff with his buddies and AAAAALL the Memes.

...but we also have very faithful representations of the Universe, made by all the fanartists, but also video content like Helsreach, Astartes and Death of Hope. (And all 3 of those are different in tone and style TOO!)

Or stuff like people writing their own Index Astartes Articles, coming up with rules for their conversions and armies, or even creating Lost Legions or entire Alternate Universes (Dornian Heresy, Broken Throne, etc.)

 

So no. 40k doesn't get less grimdark. It just gets more variety. And i bet there is a clique that goes with "your preferences". You just have to look for it.

[Vermintide]

Yo, just saying, but this Gamza dude produces some of the worst clickbait garbage on YouTube.

 

Soy isn't infiltrating 40k, the drive for sales is. The grimdark I knew hasn't been a thing for around a decade, since the BL Heresy books started focusing on the Primarchs and turning the setting into Marvel comics with more skulls. That's just how it be. Luckily the setting is big and varied, and you can make what you want of it. I choose to stubbornly pretend it's still 2001 and none of this new lore happened, but if you like other things that's fine too.

 

I don't think there's any danger of GW toning their stuff down for kids. I was like what, 9 years old when I first started with 40k? GW is well aware their stuff already appealed to kids, and they don't need to turn it into a Saturday morning cartoon.

[sarabando]

GW does feel like its becoming more mainstream friendly, alot of their artwork is getting brighter more cartoony. The Kapinsky and Gallagher artwork was more sharp and dark in its stylings but you look at GWs page now days and its cartoon orks and sisters running around together. That video does make a point though the Joss wheedon style of humour in the marvel movies is leaking out into all pop culture and it is deffo not a good fit for warhammer.

[m0nolith]

Yes and no.

Without getting too much into it, i'll try to keep it short.

 

There is clearly a push by GW to ease up on the older type of grimdarkness so they may appeal to a broader audience which they feel in turn will generate more revenue for them than if they stuck to the older style.

On the other hand, that new broader audience does not invalidate the fans of the older style of grimdarkness because they are still catered to by the way of FW's games, 30k, Necromuda, Titanicus, ect.

After all, Forgeworld from inception was designed to appeal to a more veteran playerbase. 

 

When it comes to the Black Library, they actually make both types of books, with one end of the spectrum you have the Warhammer Adventures books that are designed to appeal to kids, while on the other hand you have authors writing books set in the 40k universe which are as grim and dark as the girmdarkest things of the olden times.

 

So is it changing, yes and no. The old grimdarkness isn't going away, but it is being compartmentalized, and I don't ever see it going away in its entirety. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by m0nolith

[Doghouse]

40k is and always has been what you want it to be. It's always been about personal interpretation.

 

All this "not Grimdark" is complete nonsense as far as I am concerned. We have a setting where entire worlds are stripped of life be it being dissolved alive in the gene vats of the Tyranids, torn apart by Daemon incursions or Exterminatus at the hands of those that should protect you. How much more "Grim" do you want? 

 

I have watched the game grow from day one, I've been here every step of the way, yes GW have changed as a company and have grown enormously which is good as it means we continue to get great models and the game survives. I think it's the mainstream nature that many are finding off puttting but showing images from the webpage of cartoony 40k characters is marketing not an intended representation of the setting.

 

They're trying to cast a wide net and open up the appeal to as many as possible to get more sales.

[Marshal Rohr]

The incessant need to drag the hobby into the culture wars by fans with a microphone and time to kill will destroy the hobby faster than any amount of bolt gun rails, tactical power armor capris, and Warhammer Adventure novels.

 

 

His argument isn’t about what grimdark is or if there’s more or less of it now. His argument is about the people he has to share the hobby with.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

GW does feel like its becoming more mainstream friendly, alot of their artwork is getting brighter more cartoony. The Kapinsky and Gallagher artwork was more sharp and dark in its stylings but you look at GWs page now days and its cartoon orks and sisters running around together. That video does make a point though the Joss wheedon style of humour in the marvel movies is leaking out into all pop culture and it is deffo not a good fit for warhammer.

 

I feel like this is a weird thing to say considering that GW has always been a bit anarchic in it's representation. Back in the early 90s when I started gaming with Warhammer 5th edition the miniatures were painted in bright prime colors, bases were goblin green with some static flock and there were silly and tiny cartoons of orcs perpetrating Loony Tunes-level cartoon violence against mostly each other at the bottom of the pages in the rulebook (kind of like the small sketches between panels in the Mad magazine). As I started subscribing to the White Dwarf magazine it had a head editor named "Fat bloke" who joked about game designer Tuomas Pirinen downing a bottle of vodka to calm his nerves as he is writing an after battle report. To me as a little over 10 years old hobbyist this kind of stuff was the height of comedy, now as an adult it doesn't really land if it weren't for the nostalgia factor. Also in that same magazine were advertisements for Inferno (short stories in the different universes with wildly different takes ranging from horror to comedy) and Warhammer montly (a comic book with more or less the same breadth of takes, on the one hand you had the fantastic Malus Darkblade stories, on the other hand a story might be about a bet between a Ravenwing sergeant and an Imperial Guard officer where if the officer loses the bet he needs to sleep in a tent like the men under his command). To see people now argue in good faith that content that has a bit of levity in them or that may be aimed at people who have under 5 years of exposure to the hobby is a bad thing or a new thing is kind of weird.

 

Everything is canon and nothing is, it is a big big universe out there and there is more than enough space to have whimsical adventures as well as brutal and horrific ones. I mean in the supposedly good old grimdark days of Rogue Trader we had an inquisitor named Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau walking around in a fedora, the universe has never ever existed without at least sometimes winking at the audience to not take it too seriously.

[Evil Eye]

>Commissar Gamza

 

But, anyway, I honestly don't think the grimdark factor of 40K is being stripped away. If anything I'd argue it's returning to the days before mid-3rd/4th edition, when for all the grimdark and violence and whatnot there was still a dash of goofiness and humour. 3rd edition doubled down on the "grimdark" to a ridiculous degree, and this seems more like a return to form rather than a dilution of 40K's core spirit, so to speak.
 

Fortunately, I'm of the opinion that 40K is pretty immune to SJW nonsense, in part because the fundamental essence of the game is even at its softest the antithesis of SJW ideology- the Imperium is a bizarre meritocratic theocracy with absolutely no room for identity politics or the like (despite ironically enough being mostly free of discrimination against IRL groups), and 40K as a whole is strictly depicted as not a very nice setting to live in. Any attempt to make the setting pander to them would require so much rewriting and retconning that not only would the fanbase be in open revolt, but I doubt GW would even consider it, as even aside from the sales argument, it wouldn't be 40K anymore. As it stands, a setting where the mass extermination of innocent people to prevent the onset of the actual forces of Hell doing far worse is par for the course is like Kryptonite to people who think that holding a door open for someone is a war crime.

 

So TLDR: 40K is still grimdark, just not as edgy as the weird 3rd-4th edition dork age, and is pretty much SJW-proof.

[Vermintide]

40k is and always has been what you want it to be. It's always been about personal interpretation.

 

All this "not Grimdark" is complete nonsense as far as I am concerned. We have a setting where entire worlds are stripped of life be it being dissolved alive in the gene vats of the Tyranids, torn apart by Daemon incursions or Exterminatus at the hands of those that should protect you. How much more "Grim" do you want?

 

I have watched the game grow from day one, I've been here every step of the way, yes GW have changed as a company and have grown enormously which is good as it means we continue to get great models and the game survives. I think it's the mainstream nature that many are finding off puttting but showing images from the webpage of cartoony 40k characters is marketing not an intended representation of the setting.

 

They're trying to cast a wide net and open up the appeal to as many as possible to get more sales.

I'm playing devil's advocate here and I largely agree; but some would argue that the grimdark tone is not just an aesthetic or the fact lots of people die. Those things are just regular dark. Grimdark is about the seeming absence of hope. Humanity facing near inevitable extinction under countless threats, but fighting bitterly to the last regardless.

 

Modern 40k has largely replaced this vibe with a more mainstream friendly good vs evil narrative, where there's almost a plausible feeling that the Emperor reincarnate is already working behind the scenes to defeat Chaos and save the day; even if the Imperium is at best an anti-hero.

 

I still wouldn't say it's been intentionally toned down, but I do think the modern writers have moved it away from the kind of nihilistically bleak it once was.

 

>Commissar Gamza

 

But, anyway, I honestly don't think the grimdark factor of 40K is being stripped away. If anything I'd argue it's returning to the days before mid-3rd/4th edition, when for all the grimdark and violence and whatnot there was still a dash of goofiness and humour. 3rd edition doubled down on the "grimdark" to a ridiculous degree, and this seems more like a return to form rather than a dilution of 40K's core spirit, so to speak.

 

Fortunately, I'm of the opinion that 40K is pretty immune to SJW nonsense, in part because the fundamental essence of the game is even at its softest the antithesis of SJW ideology- the Imperium is a bizarre meritocratic theocracy with absolutely no room for identity politics or the like (despite ironically enough being mostly free of discrimination against IRL groups), and 40K as a whole is strictly depicted as not a very nice setting to live in. Any attempt to make the setting pander to them would require so much rewriting and retconning that not only would the fanbase be in open revolt, but I doubt GW would even consider it, as even aside from the sales argument, it wouldn't be 40K anymore. As it stands, a setting where the mass extermination of innocent people to prevent the onset of the actual forces of Hell doing far worse is par for the course is like Kryptonite to people who think that holding a door open for someone is a war crime.

 

So TLDR: 40K is still grimdark, just not as edgy as the weird 3rd-4th edition dork age, and is pretty much SJW-proof.

It has always been a vaguely left wing satire of authoritarianism.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Vermintide

[Marshal Rohr]

There’s a controversial story written in the past two weeks about Custodes wiping out Primaris just because they were assigned to chapter that had been declared traitor. I don’t feel like 40k has lost any of the narrative ‘no good guys’ angle, it’s the models that are moving away the fastest.

[Vassakov]

This is utter nonsense and should be treated as such.

 

As many other venerable fraters have pointed out, 40k is almost incomprehensibly vast, with elements ranging from the almost heartwarming (I always think of the conclusion to Ben Counter's original Grey Knights novel to be about as close as 40k gets to a "happy ending") to the utterly comedic (Ork Warboss accidently goes back in time, kills his past self for a spare copy of his favorite gun) to the horrifically bleak (the Daemoncabula, almost anything involving Tyranids, the fact the Redemptor Dreadnoughts are literally killing their pilots, everything about the Sister's Mortifiers and Anchorites...)

 

Yes, GW have tried to open up the game a bit more. That involves perhaps toning down some of the elements, at least at first glance. But scratch even a tiny bit below the surface and all the of nastiness of the setting is still there. Heck, even the "heroic" return of Gulliman is undercut by his despair at seeing what the empire he helped forge has deteriorated into.

 

As for complaints about stuff like Warhammer Adventures... it's ok for GW to make things not 100% aimed at you. I understand that might be hard for some people to grasp, but it is true.

[Haywire]

I can only really echo what other people have had to say. While the focus of the actual aesthetics may have moved away from the Grimdark that we're all used to, it is most assuredly still there. You still have Guardsmen driven to certain horrifically grisly death by uncaring officers. You're still considered lucky if you die in simple combat rather than any of the other myriad and exotic ways the various factions have to kill you. Your home is still due to either be eaten by Tyranids, sterilised by Necrons, sacrificed to Chaos, buried beneath a green tide, dragged off by alien raiders, purged by alien raiders for simply existing on the wrong world, incorporated into an equally uncaring empire, or simply annihilated because some clerk in a dusty Scriptorum forgot to round up on your planet's taxes and now you're heavily in arrears.

 

The universe is still horrible. Everything is still pointless. The camera is just focusing more on those points where you have that illusion of hope rather than all the overwhelming despair.

Edited April 27, 2020 by WarriorFish
No politics please

[Xenith]

Heh, how long ago did GW release a box of arco flagellants? You know what they are, right? GW have gone into the realm of producing horror novels. Actual horror. I haven't read any yet, but its probably in the direction youre going. Have you read Master of Mankind? That's set in the time of hope, but it's about as GrimDark as you get. 

 

While the OP may not have their own opinion, you can look at the content of the YT video, look at what GW does with your own eyes, and make a critical assessment based on the evidence before you. 

 

Maybe AoS is becoming grimmer and darker. One of the AoS stories in the Black Library celebration free book was about a branchwraith and follower of Slaanesh, and that got pretty grim.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

 

<snip>

I'm playing devil's advocate here and I largely agree; but some would argue that the grimdark tone is not just an aesthetic or the fact lots of people die. Those things are just regular dark. Grimdark is about the seeming absence of hope. Humanity facing near inevitable extinction under countless threats, but fighting bitterly to the last regardless.

 

Modern 40k has largely replaced this vibe with a more mainstream friendly good vs evil narrative, where there's almost a plausible feeling that the Emperor reincarnate is already working behind the scenes to defeat Chaos and save the day; even if the Imperium is at best an anti-hero.

 

I still wouldn't say it's been intentionally toned down, but I do think the modern writers have moved it away from the kind of nihilistically bleak it once was.

 

I can see where you are coming from, but to take as an example the way Roboute feels about his meeting with the Emperor where the Emperor regarded him with the same affection one might have for a favorite hammer doesn't really paint the Emperor as a good guy in the traditional good / bad sense. I guess having Roboute running around and at least pretending to feel empathy towards humanity in general unlike the previous setup of the faceless and nameless High Lords of Terra being completely apathetic is somewhat less nihilistic, but we are still very much in the deep end of the pool. Now we just have someone who tries to be better yet is being thwarted at every turn by either the uncaring bureaucracy that the Imperium has become or the machinations of his former brothers who now serve the incarnation of mankinds worst impulses or both. One could even argue that having someone around who tries to do better yet sees his attempts end up as failures most of the time highlights the nihilistic attributes of the universe rather than softens them. Neither "Nobody cares" nor "One guy cares, but achieves absolutely nothing" could be considered hopeful outlooks in my opinion.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Brother-Captain Gilead

[Bryan Blaire]

While the OP may not have their own opinion

My Spidey-sense is tingling saying that isn’t the case - everyone has an opinion, even if they know internally it isn’t that well founded/they don’t have all the facts to have a good opinion - I doubt the thread would be posted otherwise.

 

Most have illustrated how things can be presented in a direct light or even somewhat side-lit (and which elements you are consuming your content from definitely impact the content presentation), but the underlying fundamentals of the setting haven’t changed, and the supposed “turn to hope” itself is almost futile to begin with. The Imperium is split in two and the supposed boost that the Imperium has received hasn’t gotten it back on its feet from that.

 

I think that GW’s works, as much as any art, are as much about the content in them as they are about what you take away from them. What I’ve taken away from them lately is the situation is bad, and everyone trying to to “help” hasn’t made it any better. It’s as grimdark as it has been, the models still aren’t as bright as they were in the past, and things are still trending downward despite best efforts.

 

Something I find amusing (especially the reaction it gets here most times) is that when the "End Times"-ing of 40K gets brought up (whether that's an actual galaxy destruction or a fundamental shift in the setting), people react so negatively toward that type of comment - the reason it's amusing to me is that those types of events are exactly what 40K had been "progressing toward"/telegraphing for decades, that the "end" in some form or fashion was inevitable (raging against the dying of the Light isn't going to stop the light from dying) - yet folks fight against that concept tooth and nail - things must stay stangnant, no progression or change, etc. It's like an "out-of-universe" reaction to the very in-universe thing the Imperium is fighting against in a very Imperium mindset way.

[NovemberIX]

I have what I think is a somewhat more overall take on the changes in 40K storytelling as it relates to storytelling in general. That's what I'd much rather talk about and get into discussion about. Unfortunately the wellspring of this discussion is rooted in politics, and as such, will be addressed at the end.
 
So 40K has been around since the late 80's right? 30+ years. Think about that for a moment, this is a game and a fictional world that has existed since 1987. In that time the world has gone through some major changes, wars have been fought, ended, won, and reignited. Countries have had critical existence failures, political systems have been toppled, and fiction has evolved a bit. So it's no surprise it has changed itself over the decades.
 
There is this theory that goes "during dark times we write about heroes and bright futures, during times of peace we write about the darkness within us, and anti-heroes." Admittedly I learned about this in a university creative writing course nearly half as long ago as 40K is old, so thinking could have changed. But what we discussed, especially regarding the 90's and early 2K's, was that our heroes were getting to be more and more "extreme" and "fringe of society". We had prioritized self contained stories, TV shows would hit a reset button and revert to status quo at episodes end. While there were lots of sequels, by and large movies were meant to be one and done, with only the most successful becoming a franchise. We learned our heroes could died, or became killers. We made stories about great and grand wars, made films about tortured protagonists succumbing to the gears of society. Even Captain Sisko, a man who'd I'd follow into hell itself were he real, had to compromise his morals in the amazing episode of DS9 titled "in the pale moonlight" best exemplified by his monologue at episode's close.

 

SISKO: At oh eight hundred hours, station time, the Romulan Empire formally declared war against the Dominion. They have already struck fifteen bases along the Cardassian border. So, this is a huge victory for the good guys. This may even be the turning point of the entire war. There's even a 'Welcome to the Fight' party tonight in the wardroom. So I lied, I cheated, I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But most damning thing of all, I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing. A guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant, so I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it... I can live with it. Computer... erase that entire personal log.

 

Pretty awesome right? I think it best exemplifies the 90's take on protagonists. He had a laudable goal, his path was dark and difficult, and in end, even though he achieved his goals, it ultimately changed him to do so.
 
As we left the 90's and got into the turn of the century the world changed again. And for a chunk of the first and middle part of the decade, we see a different kind of protagonist. We see revenge motivated power fantasy gain popularity. Think Jack Bauer, Jason Bourne, or Jason Statham's character in transporter. Slowly the rest of our fiction starts to lose of it's "extremeness" but starts to trade it for the rough edges and grit of the real world.

 

But soon enough we see the return of an old kind of hero, done in a new way. yep, I'm talking about Super Hero movies. Heroes who exemplify sacrifice for the greater good (ironically not making a tau joke here), heroes may have less than ideal beginnings but rise to the challenge ahead. The world itself is less so, we see the rise of refugee crises the world over, the reprise of nationalism, strong man leaders, nuclear proliferation, and regular shocks to the world economy that has seen peoples livelihoods wiped out.

 

I think I should stop here, because I can literally go on and on for pages about this, but the tl;dr is this: When 40K started, the world was in a better place so we made stories to darken it up, now that we feel the world is pretty dark, we go to stories to light the way for us. As for 40K itself, many others have already put concepts to words much clearer than I could, it's a setting where a range of genre's live.  There is still overviolent grim dark if you like that sorta thing, though I prefer my grimdark slapstick and disappointed in how humanity hasn't grown up in 40 thousand years, but I'm admittedly an outlier.

Edited April 27, 2020 by WarriorFish
No politics please

[Lexington]

I'm not shy about my criticism of where GW's gone with the setting recently, but man, do people like the guy in this video make it an embarrassing endeavor sometimes.

 

"Grimdark" is one of those words that contains a whole lot, to the point where it doesn't mean anything concrete anymore. It's a gesture, typically towards a mythical past where the real 40K lived, and not the shallow and feeble husk that sits before us today, withered from within by The Corruption of...Whatever. It doesn't matter, really. When you've been in the hobby as long as I have, this sort of stuff falls apart, because you've seen how cyclical it all is. The prototype for this particular vector of complaint was called "The Rogue Trader Rant," a missive penned during the later days of 2nd Edition that complained that the 40K setting had abandoned the dark and foreboding atmosphere of its original incarnation for the "kiddies," etc., etc. You don't need the rest, because you've heard it. You've heard it a lot. If you're particularly unfortunate, you hear it from YouTube.

 

Yeah, 40K's had darker elements. I don't think there's ever been a single better chunk of the setting than 3rd Ed's incredible rulebook, just filled to the brim with the madness of a galaxy-spanning totalitarian religious empire and the brutality of body and mind that required. I love that book, but it was just...like...one book. One book that existed throughout the entire span of 3rd Edition, which had all sorts of tonal and atmospheric variations. The "grimdark" that gets referenced so often is the product of cherry-picking single elements like that and constructing a "real" 40K with it that never existed in a single place or in a single time - it's a self-enforcing regime of tunnel vision. Being able to pick and choose what you like and focus on is a big advantage of 40K, but a lot of this talk isn't about that, it's just pretending the other parts of it don't exist, just so one can feel a special sort of personal umbrage.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Lexington

[Lucerne]

GW's lost the plot more and more re: grimdark since 3e, honestly.

[WarriorFish]

It seems to me that this video may not be wholly sincere. There is merit in the discussion on the nature of "grimdark", so let's no longer comment on the video please as it seems to be making people forget the B&C's rules. We'll expect better going forwards please, or we'll need to take stronger measures. Thanks.