Is grimdark changing?

[Xenith]

Selling models is the star of the GW solar system. Everything else are the planets and space junk that orbit it.

 

Yes, but remember, all of that "junk" is marketing for the models. The background and the worlds they create sell the models.

[Chapter Master Valrak]

Can someone explain to me what Soy is?

 

Edit: And here I was thinking Soy was just a sauce.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Chapter Master Valrak

[Dosjetka]

Can someone explain to me what Soy is? I thought it was a sauce...

Explaining this goes beyond the scope of what's allowed here. A quick Internet search will yield the answers you seek.

[Chapter Master Valrak]

 

Can someone explain to me what Soy is? I thought it was a sauce...

Explaining this goes beyond the scope of what's allowed here. A quick Internet search will yield the answers you seek.

 

 

Found and quickly put to the back of my mind, hopefully forever.

[Halandaar]

Some people act like it's been all grimdark all the time since day one, selectively forgetting the "taste the rainbow" Codex covers of 2nd Edition, the primary colour paintjobs and goblin green bases, the comedy elements, satire and pop-culture references and so on that defined early 40k. (Some of that silliness even had models; remember Kruellagh the Vile and Doomrider?). 

 

"Grimdark" never has and never will be the be-all/end-all of 40k, and certain people need to get over that (or in this case, not use it as a smoke screen for low-quality gatekeeping).

[DanPesci]

Grim Dark isnt going anywhere. 

 

The two most recent 40k books I've read were the latest Gaunts ones, and Red Tithe (admittedly this is 3 years old now):

 

SPOILER ALERT

 

 

 

In one, pretty much 2/3rds of the ghosts are unceremoniously wiped out by scrapcode infected admech, whilst their (thousands strong) family members/retainers who have been following them around for 10 books are trapped in a catacomb in pitch black, and all get flayed alive by one of the main characters daughters who turns out has been a daemon weapon all along.

 

The latter is set on a prison world full of murderers and rapists which the nightlords raid and begin their own version of the hunger games on.

 

 

 

40k is still very much grim dark when it wants/needs to be. And for a relatively 'mainstream' sci-fi/fantasy IP its certainly darker than anything else I can think of (like... if anyone can give me a major IP thats as dark as 40k - ill happily take it!)

 

 

However thankfully GW are smart enough to know when to utilise GrimDark and to what audience. 

 

Like it or not, new business on the scale GW work on means getting kids in, that means winning over parents. If the first thing a staff member does when mum n dad take their first family visit to the warhammer store is start explaining exterminatus to a 12 year old, its probably not going to go down well.

 

A nice bright comic about some Ultramarines fighting off some orks that you can buy alongside a start painting kit...that's a more palatable intro (and relatable to other mainstream kid friendly fantasy - eg LOTR).

 

If you don't like that comic because you've been playing night lords for 25 years and only look at john blanche artwork....that's fine too! (and there's a ton of black library novels and other material for you)

 

Some people act like it's been all grimdark all the time since day one, selectively forgetting the "taste the rainbow" Codex covers of 2nd Edition, the primary colour paintjobs and goblin green bases, the comedy elements, satire and pop-culture references and so on that defined early 40k. (Some of that silliness even had models; remember Kruellagh the Vile and Doomrider?). 

 

Totally.

"This is a hive. It houses billions livining in squalor.

Gangs die in their thousands every day

And one of the most infamous of those gang leaders is called 'Mad' Donna and has a strangely familiar pointy brazier."

Edited April 28, 2020 by DanPesci

[Pulse]

100% GW is leaning away from the darker elements of the universe and i am pretty sure BL don't even bother with editors to make sure that a certain level of excellence is maintained from the authors.

 

Saying that though the 40k universe is becoming more and more widely known and as Doghouse has previously said, the grim and the darker elements are still there for all who seek it, just much harder to find sadly.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Pulse

[Lord_Caerolion]

Are they, though? Recent Black Library releases are just as GrimDark as ever, like Valdor covering the purge of the Thunder Warriors because they outlived their usefulness, and explaining that all this talk of "justice" and "law" in the Imperium is just a cover so that the main goals of the Imperium may be realized, being the reunification of Mankind, by force if necessary.

Or Regents Shadow, where

Our "good and enlightened Mary Sue" Guilliman is shown to have manufactured the attempted coup that had caused hundreds of thousands across Terra, probably millions, to die, all to expose recidivist elements among the High Lords so they could be more efficiently removed, i.e. killed by Vindicare Assassins. He's in no way the goody-two-shoes that some have said he is.

 

Plus, again, GW didn't always lean into the GrimDark elements of the universe. So much of their history has involved outright silliness, so people saying "GW are turning away from the super-serious history of the game that has absolutely always been in place, and they're ruining it" are either deliberately misrepresenting the history of the game, or apparently blissfully ignorant of so much of GWs history. I mean, you don't have to be the famed Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau to find non-serious stuff going all the way back to Rogue Trader days.

[Sugarlessllama]

TL;DNR: Nope. Still plenty of Grimdark, but people may not understand was “Grimdark” was supposed to be.

 

Is GW getting rid of grimdark? No. I don’t think releasing books aimed at younger audiences makes the setting over all less “Grimdark”. I think the idea of coming up the books for people to introduce children to the hobby is great. They have also introduced horror and crime novels which have been awesome (the horror ones at least IMHO).

 

If you look at the box art and White Dwarf articles from the 80’s and 90’s everything is bright, colorful, and a little comic book-ish. The lore has always poked fun at pop culture, and hyper right-wing politics. Previously, the setting kind of backed off from that, but lately it has been returning to its roots.  Which has been awesome IMHO.

 

I think as more diverse groups join us in the hobby, the lore is going to reflect that. I have really been enjoying the lore more, because I see a bit more stuff I can kind of relate to, and some satire that really nails it in my opinion.

But there is a growing contingent of people who have taken the lore at face value, and didn’t understand that GW wasn’t advocating for right-wing authoritarianism (like Heinlein) but were instead poking fun at it, or showing it as a dystopia. They see the fan base is becoming more diverse, and they have decided that the lore is changing as a result of the fan base, and not the other way around.

 

Personally, I think they core nature of the lore being satire has never changed, it is just becoming a little less nuanced so that fewer people will miss the point. An example of this would be “Fight Club 2”. Palahniuk ended up writing a sequel to Fight Club because he thought way too many people missed the fact that Tyler Durden was  a monster. Or how a lot of people read “Watchmen” and think Rorschach is a hero, which he is clearly not, nor intended to be one.  

 

I guess what I’m trying to say is that GW is bringing 40K back to its roots and people are confused because they missed the point in the first place.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Sugarlessllama

[Scribe]

No, simply read the fiction.

[Volt]

 

40k is and always has been what you want it to be. It's always been about personal interpretation.

 

All this "not Grimdark" is complete nonsense as far as I am concerned. We have a setting where entire worlds are stripped of life be it being dissolved alive in the gene vats of the Tyranids, torn apart by Daemon incursions or Exterminatus at the hands of those that should protect you. How much more "Grim" do you want?

 

I have watched the game grow from day one, I've been here every step of the way, yes GW have changed as a company and have grown enormously which is good as it means we continue to get great models and the game survives. I think it's the mainstream nature that many are finding off puttting but showing images from the webpage of cartoony 40k characters is marketing not an intended representation of the setting.

 

They're trying to cast a wide net and open up the appeal to as many as possible to get more sales.

I'm playing devil's advocate here and I largely agree; but some would argue that the grimdark tone is not just an aesthetic or the fact lots of people die. Those things are just regular dark. Grimdark is about the seeming absence of hope. Humanity facing near inevitable extinction under countless threats, but fighting bitterly to the last regardless.

 

Modern 40k has largely replaced this vibe with a more mainstream friendly good vs evil narrative, where there's almost a plausible feeling that the Emperor reincarnate is already working behind the scenes to defeat Chaos and save the day; even if the Imperium is at best an anti-hero.

 

I still wouldn't say it's been intentionally toned down, but I do think the modern writers have moved it away from the kind of nihilistically bleak it once was.

 

 

 

 

If you go back and actually read the old 1e-early 2e lore, modern 40k is if anything, more grimdark. The star child plot wasn't really am ambiguity, but a solid part of late 1e lore; the Emperor was going to return as the Star Child at some point, the question was when, not if, as the Sensei were quite numerous and trying to bring about the Emperor's return.

[Sugarlessllama]

I really get the sense that I am seeing more and more YouTube... posts? Vlogs? Complaining about 40K becoming less Grimdark. And I don't know where this is coming from. The Beast Arises had scenes featuring humans being kept as livestock, and a literal tsunami of blood... in spaaaace. The Warhammer Horror line has multiple cannibalism stories. Oh, wait...Necromunda recently got an entire faction dedicated to turning humans into tasty treats. The Dark Imperium novel was pretty rough when describing the nature of trench warfare in the far, nuglely, future. The lore still features religious zealots doing horrible things. A bureaucratic nightmare where whole civilizations die because someone put the wrong stamp on the required forms. 

 

But now, GW is less grimdark because they released a kids book that doesn't introduce 10 year olds to the wonders of flaying people alive? Give me a break.  

[Slave to Darkness]

Catering to the younger audience isnt really a bad thing, if it gets new blood into the hobby then thats a good thing. Id have never watched a single Troma film if I hadnt watched the Toxic Crusaders cartoon. 

For every kid that likes the 'noblebright' angle some people are mentioning online there will be that one weird kid who embraces the Grimdarkness of the setting and might become the next John Blanche

Edited April 29, 2020 by Slave to Darkness

[Scribe]

Noblebright is a shallow meme anyway.

 

People really just need to read the lore and look at what's actually going on.

 

Some critical thinking doesn't draw the eyeballs like clickbait though.

[Lord_Caerolion]

People saying "the Imperium is NobleBright now" are really missing the fact that half the Imperium is cut off from all outside aid, drawing what local forces they can to defend themselves from the monsters circling in the darkness, and that sure, Guilliman is back and has Primaris Marines, but despite all these new advantages the Imperium is just barely holding together. They got a better fire-extinguisher, but it's still just a few of them and the entire neighborhood is engulfed in a roaring inferno, while there's a chasm that stops you getting to half of it. Sure, there's a rickety bridge across the chasm, but there's also the arsonists trying to set fire to that too, and they and their friends are trying to beat up everybody going across it.

 

Sure, Dante's now Warden of the Imperium Nihilus, but that's not exactly saying much when all Imperial forces are pretty much stranded where they are thanks to the lack of the Astronomican and any astropathic communication is all but meaningless.

I mean, the only reason Guilliman is even back is because the Eldar are manipulating the Imperium for their own ends, to help buy time for Ynnead to properly wake.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[MegaVolt87]

I really get the sense that I am seeing more and more YouTube... posts? Vlogs? Complaining about 40K becoming less Grimdark. And I don't know where this is coming from. The Beast Arises had scenes featuring humans being kept as livestock, and a literal tsunami of blood... in spaaaace. The Warhammer Horror line has multiple cannibalism stories. Oh, wait...Necromunda recently got an entire faction dedicated to turning humans into tasty treats. The Dark Imperium novel was pretty rough when describing the nature of trench warfare in the far, nuglely, future. The lore still features religious zealots doing horrible things. A bureaucratic nightmare where whole civilizations die because someone put the wrong stamp on the required forms. 

 

But now, GW is less grimdark because they released a kids book that doesn't introduce 10 year olds to the wonders of flaying people alive? Give me a break.

 

I think people are worried that the kid friendly intro/ overly progressive content will shock most of the newcomers once they hit the more darker content. Then shock to outrage, which would potentialy lead to more changes, in overal tone. It's also been proven there is little financial gain in pandering to such interests as those groups tend to demand changes, then not purchase the content aimed at them in comparison to the inital core audience there origionaly, destroying that fandom/hobby etc.

 

40k is actually pretty progressive as it is, via ad mech, SoB, IG, knight houses, Imperial Navy, xenos such as eldar etc. I think there is space for everyone here, as long as the overal content dosn't skew in one way consistantly. GW is making a lot of diffrent products and content, not everything needs to be liked, just enough to keep everyone invested, which is working IMO.

[Volt]

People saying "the Imperium is NobleBright now" are really missing the fact that half the Imperium is cut off from all outside aid, drawing what local forces they can to defend themselves from the monsters circling in the darkness, and that sure, Guilliman is back and has Primaris Marines, but despite all these new advantages the Imperium is just barely holding together. They got a better fire-extinguisher, but it's still just a few of them and the entire neighborhood is engulfed in a roaring inferno, while there's a chasm that stops you getting to half of it. Sure, there's a rickety bridge across the chasm, but there's also the arsonists trying to set fire to that too, and they and their friends are trying to beat up everybody going across it.

 

Sure, Dante's now Warden of the Imperium Nihilus, but that's not exactly saying much when all Imperial forces are pretty much stranded where they are thanks to the lack of the Astronomican and any astropathic communication is all but meaningless.

I mean, the only reason Guilliman is even back is because the Eldar are manipulating the Imperium for their own ends, to help buy time for Ynnead to properly wake.

That doesn't actually mean anything unless we see the consequences of such circumstance. As of right now the Imperium hasn't really showed any signs of suffering from current events beyond the 'horrible' circumstance of nameless planets and unknown citizens being devoured by threats on the edges. But all of the factions prosper, primaris somehow were floated to the galactic northern ridge, the territory itself hasn't actually collapsed, and there's just been two campaigns so far that have done nothing and reinforced the status quo with some characters getting boo-boos they jump right back up from. It's still nothing like the original 13th Black Crusade, where named characters permanently died until the retcon (Eldrad being perma-dead for one).

[Quantum]

I too see signs of 'GrimDark' changing, but I come to a very different conclusion.

 

Many people here complain that WH40k is shifting more to the 'NobleBright' side, but my view is that WH40k often strayed into the dangerous territory of 'GrimDERP'; i.e. making the setting so grim is becomes silly. For example, the Haemotrope Reactor. A nuclear reactor that is serviced by indentured serfs, enslaved by unemphatic cybernetic priests, where they are not expected to live long? That is GrimDark. A nuclear reactor that works using the human blood, that is just silly and GrimDerp. And as someone who knows a bit about fission and fusion reactors, I cannot ignore the fact that using blood in such a machine is a good way to get all kinds of unwanted contaminations in the device. Point is, it is unnecessary for the setting, and a lame attempt of the writer to say: 'see how grim this is? So grim, it requires human sacrifice even though that makes no sense. It is that grim!'

 

There is no need for such over-the-top grimness. The setting is grim, harsh, unforgiving, unfair, and frightening enough if you portray it as a place where people live, survive, and even thrive. Even in a grim setting there can be victory and happiness, even if the standard is drudgery and short, unhappy lives. Some of the best background material I've read (the Dark Heresy RGGS and its spin-offs, the Necromunda books) show the Imperium as a functioning society. I don't want to live there, but I do understand it and I can imagine it to be a place where (between the grim, grime and despair) humanity thrives.

 

The point I am trying to make is that I see more attempts to portray the Imperium as a empire filled with actual people that live their lives. And even though we still get the occasional silliness like the Haemotrope Reactor, it feels more realistic. Still grim, but more relatable. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Quantum

[Sloeberjong]

Whining about childrens books possibly making the setting for your plastic toys less grimdark is about as ironic as it gets...

 

40k has always been a silly kind of grimdark. I remember the "red" fase well with the silly models and paintjobs. The green bases, the funny stories in White Dwarf. At some point stuff got a bit more mature, with more realistic paintjobs, bases AND models (like topless 6 boobed daemonettes). I guess that people who whine about the grimdark lessening are not that familiar with the sillyness that was. The childrens' books are an addition, not a replacement.

 

The setting is what draws me, not the game or the story, no the setting (and models). I love the stories within the setting and it's as grimdark as you make it. People tend to forget that GW used to make models and slapped on this story which now is a full setting with stuff as "canon" and people take it way too serious. It started out as silly and grimdark. I think it's still a great setting with lots and lots of horrible stuff in it. 

 

And well, commisar Gamza...I'll just not go into that.

 

 

 

Well, those were my 2 cents about it. 

[Dark Shepherd]

Wasnt there a model released recently with a daemon playing a harp made out of a still living person?

[bluntblade]

100% GW is leaning away from the darker elements of the universe and i am pretty sure BL don't even bother with editors to make sure that a certain level of excellence is maintained from the authors.

 

Saying that though the 40k universe is becoming more and more widely known and as Doghouse has previously said, the grim and the darker elements are still there for all who seek it, just much harder to find sadly.

I'd say the bar for Black Library is likely higher than it was a decade ago, going by the Heresy books.

[Sloeberjong]

100% GW is leaning away from the darker elements of the universe and i am pretty sure BL don't even bother with editors to make sure that a certain level of excellence is maintained from the authors.

 

Saying that though the 40k universe is becoming more and more widely known and as Doghouse has previously said, the grim and the darker elements are still there for all who seek it, just much harder to find sadly.

 

 

You should read the introduction to warhammer 40k on the warhammer community website. It starts out as pretty grimdark and it doesn't really get better. In the second line about Dark Millennium they speak of a rotting carcass as the master of mankind...

 

 

 

For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium, for whom a thousand souls die every day, for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten. Human blood and human flesh – the stuff of which the Imperium is made. To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tale of those times.

 

This is part of the introduction for new players...I dunno man. Seems pretty grimdark to me and it wasn't that hard to find.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

 

<snip>

I think people are worried that the kid friendly intro/ overly progressive content will shock most of the newcomers once they hit the more darker content. Then shock to outrage, which would potentialy lead to more changes, in overal tone. It's also been proven there is little financial gain in pandering to such interests as those groups tend to demand changes, then not purchase the content aimed at them in comparison to the inital core audience there origionaly, destroying that fandom/hobby etc.

 

I disagree pretty strongly with these statements that you kind of make seem like they are just facts. First of all wouldn't this be an argument for GW to do precisely what it has done and have clearly defined content that is aimed at different audiences to avoid these complications kind of like the way movies and videogames have suggestions on the age of the audience it is suggested to. The Warhammer Adventures books were clearly branded as a separate thing from the mainline as is the new BL horror branding. You pick and choose what content you prefer to consume and seeing how much content is being produced these days it would be really hard to read and consume everything GW produces anyway, I personally am failing to keep up with just the HH books.

 

Also this ominous warning that somehow having content aimed at a non-traditional audience risks setting off a chain of events that leads to the destruction of a fandom / hobby and considering that a reasonable thing for people to fear and thus fight to prevent is a bit silly. I personally am really happy that due to the growth of GW with all of this diversification from smaller scale skirmish games to tabletop games to their experimentation with boardgames has led to them broadening their audience and enabled them to spend resources on Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica Imperialis, two things from the past I am really really happy have made such a strong comeback (fingers crossed we get BFG and Epic back as well). I don't see this as a dangerous development but rather as a really beneficial positive feedback loop where the larger audience enables more diverse content which caters to new players and old players alike which brings in more money which leads to even more diverse content (again, fingers crossed for BFG and Epic).

Edited April 29, 2020 by Brother-Captain Gilead

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

<snip>

I think people are worried that the kid friendly intro/ overly progressive content will shock most of the newcomers once they hit the more darker content. Then shock to outrage, which would potentialy lead to more changes, in overal tone. It's also been proven there is little financial gain in pandering to such interests as those groups tend to demand changes, then not purchase the content aimed at them in comparison to the inital core audience there origionaly, destroying that fandom/hobby etc.

 

I disagree pretty strongly with these statements that you kind of make seem like they are just facts. First of all wouldn't this be an argument for GW to do precisely what it has done and have clearly defined content that is aimed at different audiences to avoid these complications kind of like the way movies and videogames have suggestions on the age of the audience it is suggested to. The Warhammer Adventures books were clearly branded as a separate thing from the mainline as is the new BL horror branding. You pick and choose what content you prefer to consume and seeing how much content is being produced these days it would be really hard to read and consume everything GW produces anyway, I personally am failing to keep up with just the HH books.

 

Also this ominous warning that somehow having content aimed at a non-traditional audience risks setting off a chain of events that leads to the destruction of a fandom / hobby and considering that a reasonable thing for people to fear and thus fight to prevent is a bit silly. I personally am really happy that due to the growth of GW with all of this diversification from smaller scale skirmish games to tabletop games to their experimentation with boardgames has led to them broadening their audience and enabled them to spend resources on Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica Imperialis, two things from the past I am really really happy have made such a strong comeback (fingers crossed we get BFG and Epic back as well). I don't see this as a dangerous development but rather as a really beneficial positive feedback loop where the larger audience enables more diverse content which caters to new players and old players alike which brings in more money which leads to even more diverse content (again, fingers crossed for BFG and Epic).

 

 

 

And you missed the last part, its rude not to include the whole response. The point I was making is how I understand the pushback, the second part is actually my opinion. 

 

40k is actually pretty progressive as it is, via ad mech, SoB, IG, knight houses, Imperial Navy, xenos such as eldar etc. I think there is space for everyone here, as long as the overal content dosn't skew in one way consistantly. GW is making a lot of diffrent products and content, not everything needs to be liked, just enough to keep everyone invested, which is working IMO.

 

Anyway, people are worried about the change of tone which it is changing-  not all change is bad, but we don't know what will happen to GW's IP as time passes. So the response is to reject ALL change is a natural reaction. There is only risk if GW favours certain groups over others etc, right now I still think everyone is welcome in the hobby from a lore/ IP standpoint. I think there are plenty of precedents to make people worried, there is also enough so GW don't step on the same path to potentially split the fandom. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

 

 

 

<snip>

<snip>

<snip>

 

 

And you missed the last part, its rude not to include the whole response. The point I was making is how I understand the pushback, the second part is actually my opinion. 

 

40k is actually pretty progressive as it is, via ad mech, SoB, IG, knight houses, Imperial Navy, xenos such as eldar etc. I think there is space for everyone here, as long as the overal content dosn't skew in one way consistantly. GW is making a lot of diffrent products and content, not everything needs to be liked, just enough to keep everyone invested, which is working IMO.

 

Anyway, people are worried about the change of tone which it is changing-  not all change is bad, but we don't know what will happen to GW's IP as time passes. So the response is to reject ALL change is a natural reaction. There is only risk if GW favours certain groups over others etc, right now I still think everyone is welcome in the hobby from a lore/ IP standpoint. I think there are plenty of precedents to make people worried, there is also enough so GW don't step on the same path to potentially split the fandom. 

 

 

I owe you an apology then, for I misconstrued that earlier part as your opinion also. I apologize and it was definitely not my intention to be rude or misrepresent your position on this.

 

I do still think that rejecting all change is a reactionary position which will only lead to a shrinking player base and is not a healthy direction for any fanbase to take (or a company catering to that fanbase). Additionally in the case of GW in general and WH40k specifically the lore and the tone have always been very varied and constantly changing so trying to claim a personal interpretation of it as the only true one is a bit ignorant of the history of the brand and the universe. To me the biggest risk to splitting the fandom comes from parts of the fandom itself being too fanatical about their interpretation being the only true one, not anything that GW has done up to this point.