Primaris Terminators

[pawl]

One could even argue the Fallen are more true to the Lion's geneseed then the current Dark Angels are. Especially if you consider that the gene-seed heavily influences the recipients personality, to the point of overwriting it.

Surely the effects of Chaos would leave the gene-seed just as degenerated (if not significantly more) than ten thousand years of loyalist use? I'm fairly certain I've read books where gene-seed had to be left unharvested purely through proximity of chaos forces to the fallen marine.

Gene-seed quality being a factor would be another reason for the Lion to favour the Primaris, too, as they were created from pure gene-seed. That said, I was under the impression that the DA line is considered very pure by Astartes standards anyway.

 

 

Of course, this plays well into GW's hands with getting more profit out of it, but lore-wise this is where it's been heading. If GW weren't so focused on making a profit, then they could implement a fluff piece where ALL firstborn become primaris (after let's say a refinement in the procedure), which justifies the whole inclusion into the DW/RW.

It's easier and more profitable to let them slowly die off though, with the added benefit of not pissing off current players. Finding out that the force you've spent a fortune and countless hours collecting is now useless obviously wouldn't sit well, but slowly adding units as they're released (on a more relaxed timescale) is perfectly acceptable. This would also kind of tie in with the marines slowly being replaced as they fell in battle or crossed the Rubicon.

In my eyes it makes more sense for GW to do it this way, otherwise they would be a to design and produce the entire line, characters included, all at once.

[ChaplainNemiel]

Personally, I'm pro-primaris, and it's a matter of time before the Primaris get into the RW/DW. There is already an instance of one primaris in the Deathwing (thanks to Azrael) and so far he's exceeded all the expectations set to him. Then there is also another thing worth considering - the Lion. How is this related? Take a look at the Lion's personality - he isn't sentimental at all (like gulliman), in fact he's pretty future-orientated. Which means from his perspective he is likely to adopt them as they are more "efficient" as the firstborn, even if he views them as tools (Empeor to Space marine legion parallels, anyone). One could even argue the Fallen ++HERESY AHEAD, BLAM BLAM++ (oh lord, Interrogator Stobz is going to have a field day with me) are more true to the Lion's geneseed then the current Dark Angels are. Especially if you consider that the gene-seed heavily influences the recipients personality, to the point of overwriting it. Of course, this plays well into GW's hands with getting more profit out of it, but lore-wise this is where it's been heading. If GW weren't so focused on making a profit, then they could implement a fluff piece where ALL firstborn become primaris (after let's say a refinement in the procedure), which justifies the whole inclusion into the DW/RW. 

 

I really hope not...Our DW and RW boxes really are not THAT old. They still look fantastic - and I really just don't want all my DW to be obsolete over night 

 

Another question I have about this topic is...Do you guys feel that investing any more money into standard DW is even worth it at this point?

With the prospect of Primaris DW possibly around the corner (or not). 

[Berzul]

Absolutely not worth it. Better to wait it out.

[The Neverborn]

Primaris is a huge turn off for me precisely because of that. I've got a deathwing army but it's going to stay has is indefinitely now, and may be sold as soon as Terminators are worth something.

 

I'm also not going to touch marines until there's a clear conclusion of where Primaris lands.

 

GW loves Marines and it's clear they will go on getting more and more entries to their codex. It's already bloated in my human opinion and a lot of that is GW know new stuff will sell.

 

9th will coom sooner or later and the sales director at GW will be asking, "what new models are we releasing for marines".

[Skywrath]

 

One could even argue the Fallen are more true to the Lion's geneseed then the current Dark Angels are. Especially if you consider that the gene-seed heavily influences the recipients personality, to the point of overwriting it.

Surely the effects of Chaos would leave the gene-seed just as degenerated (if not significantly more) than ten thousand years of loyalist use? I'm fairly certain I've read books where gene-seed had to be left unharvested purely through proximity of chaos forces to the fallen marine.

Gene-seed quality being a factor would be another reason for the Lion to favour the Primaris, too, as they were created from pure gene-seed. That said, I was under the impression that the DA line is considered very pure by Astartes standards anyway.

 

That's not what I meant. First off all, you could read the above in two ways - the first one being your way, the other one is from a "genetic heritage" kind of way. If we were to read it the way that you read, then my counter-argument to that point is that I meant the "renegade" fallen, rather than the "chaos" fallen. The second way you could read my statement (in the "genetic heritage" way is that the firstborn marines are more sentimental than the fallen, which by contrast always seem to be focused on some goal of theirs (future-orientation). Notice how the latter is more true to the Lion's personality (and hence his geneseed) then the former? Come to think of things I recall Astelan/Cypher (not sure which) saying the exact same thing - to which I found myself agreeing with that. I never said the Dark Angel gene-seed was not pure, only they aren't true to it.

 

 

Of course, this plays well into GW's hands with getting more profit out of it, but lore-wise this is where it's been heading. If GW weren't so focused on making a profit, then they could implement a fluff piece where ALL firstborn become primaris (after let's say a refinement in the procedure), which justifies the whole inclusion into the DW/RW.

 

It's easier and more profitable to let them slowly die off though, with the added benefit of not pissing off current players. Finding out that the force you've spent a fortune and countless hours collecting is now useless obviously wouldn't sit well, but slowly adding units as they're released (on a more relaxed timescale) is perfectly acceptable. This would also kind of tie in with the marines slowly being replaced as they fell in battle or crossed the Rubicon.

In my eyes it makes more sense for GW to do it this way, otherwise they would be a to design and produce the entire line, characters included, all at once.

 

It would be profitable, sure, however, I was thinking more of upgrade kits to convert old firstborn into primaris. So let's say deathwing arms/shoulders with primaris physique, new primaris-deathwing helmets, etc, etc. I can see it from your perspective of you being a firstborn player, that it would be a problem for you personally. But yes, point acknowledged.

 

 

In blue. I have a bias admittedly, because I started playing the game when primaris came out, if I was playing the game when the firstborn were the only option, then I would feel the same way too. However, I'm not against the idea of buying new models if they look/are better - the whole firstborn/primaris struggle can be applied to any sort of evolutionary technology IRL.

 

 

Personally, I'm pro-primaris, and it's a matter of time before the Primaris get into the RW/DW. There is already an instance of one primaris in the Deathwing (thanks to Azrael) and so far he's exceeded all the expectations set to him. Then there is also another thing worth considering - the Lion. How is this related? Take a look at the Lion's personality - he isn't sentimental at all (like gulliman), in fact he's pretty future-orientated. Which means from his perspective he is likely to adopt them as they are more "efficient" as the firstborn, even if he views them as tools (Empeor to Space marine legion parallels, anyone). One could even argue the Fallen ++HERESY AHEAD, BLAM BLAM++ (oh lord, Interrogator Stobz is going to have a field day with me) are more true to the Lion's geneseed then the current Dark Angels are. Especially if you consider that the gene-seed heavily influences the recipients personality, to the point of overwriting it. Of course, this plays well into GW's hands with getting more profit out of it, but lore-wise this is where it's been heading. If GW weren't so focused on making a profit, then they could implement a fluff piece where ALL firstborn become primaris (after let's say a refinement in the procedure), which justifies the whole inclusion into the DW/RW. 

 

I really hope not...Our DW and RW boxes really are not THAT old. They still look fantastic - and I really just don't want all my DW to be obsolete over night 

I can understand that. I personally love the DWK sculpt, and I would be lying if I said I wouldn't feel anything seeing them gone.

 

Another question I have about this topic is...Do you guys feel that investing any more money into standard DW is even worth it at this point?

With the prospect of Primaris DW possibly around the corner (or not). 

 

They said they would announce another preview next Sunday if memory serves. I would probably hold off until then.

 

Also in blue.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Berzul]

I hold no expectation for netx announcements to be about primaris terminators (or primaris bikes, for that matter).

 

I do think they are coming at some point, but I would expect them to come through a bigger event or reveal.

 

Perhaps a campaign will occur after Psychic Awakening, leading into 9th Ed. (or 8.5th Ed., as rumors have it), which will see more of the firstborn die out (like it happened to the massacred Blood Angels and Blood Angels Successors already, in the fluff), and which will lead into even more new tech coming out of Cawl's laboratories on Mars.

 

Whatever it may be, I just wish they would get on with it, already...

Edited May 4, 2020 by Berzul

[G8Keeper]

Aside from DW Knights you weren't fielding/buying DW for their ability on the battlefield anyway, so there is definitely a collecting aspect to continuing to buy DW.  For me, getting to a full company of them.

[pawl]

Trying to nest these properly on mobile is a nightmare, so I'm being lazy.

 

I can see how there's some logic to that, but I can't buy into it I'm afraid. The Unforgiven have allowed themselves to become focused on the past, that's true. However I think that with the right guidance (that being the Lion himself) they could quickly enough get themselves back on the right path, whatever his vision might be. The Fallen allowed themselves to be turned from their gene-father, if not the Emperor himself, and to commit violence against their brothers. How the Lion would/will deal with Luther, Astelan et al I don't know, but the sins lie more with the offspring than the parent I feel.

 

 

Would firstborn conversion kits work lore-wise? The Primaris are physically bigger, and thus I would assume simply wouldn't fit into mk8 or TDA. This would mean that RW/DW would require entirely new models - new bikes and/or speeders to fit bigger frames, and some form of TDA replacement.

 

 

While I started in the hobby a long time ago, I was always something of a butterfly, and thus don't actually have much in the way of completed models (this will change!). Coming back in my DA-successors will be a mix of both Primaris and (likely a majority of) firstborn, helped in part by a mountain of old plastic, and a fondness for classic metal sculpts.

 

 

If GW had simply made all firstborn obsolete overnight then not only would they have to do all the work beforehand (for generic and named chapters, all unit types etc), they would seriously annoy everyone who had an existing collection (and possibly lose players as a result), and STILL get accused of profiteering because everybody now has to buy new from scratch! I think that doing things how they have is probably about the best route they could have taken.

[Berzul]

 

Trying to nest these properly on mobile is a nightmare, so I'm being lazy.

I can see how there's some logic to that, but I can't buy into it I'm afraid. The Unforgiven have allowed themselves to become focused on the past, that's true. However I think that with the right guidance (that being the Lion himself) they could quickly enough get themselves back on the right path, whatever his vision might be. The Fallen allowed themselves to be turned from their gene-father, if not the Emperor himself, and to commit violence against their brothers. How the Lion would/will deal with Luther, Astelan et al I don't know, but the sins lie more with the offspring than the parent I feel.

 

 

Would firstborn conversion kits work lore-wise? The Primaris are physically bigger, and thus I would assume simply wouldn't fit into mk8 or TDA. This would mean that RW/DW would require entirely new models - new bikes and/or speeders to fit bigger frames, and some form of TDA replacement.

 

 

While I started in the hobby a long time ago, I was always something of a butterfly, and thus don't actually have much in the way of completed models (this will change!). Coming back in my DA-successors will be a mix of both Primaris and (likely a majority of) firstborn, helped in part by a mountain of old plastic, and a fondness for classic metal sculpts.

 

 

If GW had simply made all firstborn obsolete overnight then not only would they have to do all the work beforehand (for generic and named chapters, all unit types etc), they would seriously annoy everyone who had an existing collection (and possibly lose players as a result), and STILL get accused of profiteering because everybody now has to buy new from scratch! I think that doing things how they have is probably about the best route they could have taken.

 

I think GW was in a no-win scenario.

 

Switch the entire range? People get mad.

Switch only some armies? People get mad.

Switch it on a long time? People get mad.

Don't switch? Game stagnates.

 

We can only comment on what we would have LIKED to have happened.

[pawl]

I think GW was in a no-win scenario.

 

Switch the entire range? People get mad.

Switch only some armies? People get mad.

Switch it on a long time? People get mad.

Don't switch? Game stagnates.

 

We can only comment on what we would have LIKED to have happened.

Pretty much. Now, however, we have the best of both worlds. Firstborn will (presumably) be sticking around for at least a few years, so players have options. If you like the old, you can keep/collect more of it. If you like the new, you can add/exclusively collect it. In the long run only Primaris will remain, but I think it can be assumed that over the next few years/however much longer it takes that most players will have viable Primaris forces. That's assuming they get rid of firstborn entirely in any timeframe that counts - say the next decade.

[The Neverborn]

 

I think GW was in a no-win scenario.

 

Switch the entire range? People get mad.

Switch only some armies? People get mad.

Switch it on a long time? People get mad.

Don't switch? Game stagnates.

 

We can only comment on what we would have LIKED to have happened.

 

 

 

My Primary objection is the surreptitious nature of the switch.

 

I would have been more willing to accept any of the above if GW had been totally forthcoming. I think it's not unreasonable to be annoyed by the duplicity of action.#

 

As such anyone buying Marines knows that their models will be "Primarised" just not when. I aware that GW probably don't know exact dates, I'm only after a statement of intent or inevitability.  

[Skywrath]

 

Trying to nest these properly on mobile is a nightmare, so I'm being lazy.

I can see how there's some logic to that, but I can't buy into it I'm afraid. The Unforgiven have allowed themselves to become focused on the past, that's true. However I think that with the right guidance (that being the Lion himself) they could quickly enough get themselves back on the right path, whatever his vision might be. The Fallen allowed themselves to be turned from their gene-father, if not the Emperor himself, and to commit violence against their brothers. How the Lion would/will deal with Luther, Astelan et al I don't know, but the sins lie more with the offspring than the parent I feel.

 

Would firstborn conversion kits work lore-wise? The Primaris are physically bigger, and thus I would assume simply wouldn't fit into mk8 or TDA. This would mean that RW/DW would require entirely new models - new bikes and/or speeders to fit bigger frames, and some form of TDA replacement.

 

While I started in the hobby a long time ago, I was always something of a butterfly, and thus don't actually have much in the way of completed models (this will change!). Coming back in my DA-successors will be a mix of both Primaris and (likely a majority of) firstborn, helped in part by a mountain of old plastic, and a fondness for classic metal sculpts.

 

If GW had simply made all firstborn obsolete overnight then not only would they have to do all the work beforehand (for generic and named chapters, all unit types etc), they would seriously annoy everyone who had an existing collection (and possibly lose players as a result), and STILL get accused of profiteering because everybody now has to buy new from scratch! I think that doing things how they have is probably about the best route they could have taken.

 

You are definitely correct, that the Lion would straighten them out (and I hope so for sure)! I don't think the Lion would deal with Luther in the same way, most people suspect. I think I stated earlier on another thread, it would be a case of redemption on Luther's part. The Lion is a man of his word, and I don't think it would sit well with him (even after all that), just to kill his adoptive father off. Especially if he sees the parallel of the HH being linked to the Emperor's secretive nature, to the fallen being formed out of the same principle. Either I am grossly mistaken in that assumption, or just being overly idealistic - time will tell. 

 

As for the primaris upgrade kits, just remember it wouldn't really be a case of redesigning something from the ground up. It would be a case of "the new is old, and the old is new". So they would just have to tie in some old lore into the upgrade kit, as well as giving the new helmet/pauldron a primaris-like feel. As you pointed out, they would have to be the same size as the old kits. 

 

You make it sound like this isn't the first time that GW got accused of profiteering? Is that a reference to the primaris being released, or were there other examples?

Edited May 6, 2020 by Skywrath

[shabbadoo]

I think GW was in a no-win scenario.

 

Switch the entire range? People get mad.

Switch only some armies? People get mad.

Switch it on a long time? People get mad.

Don't switch? Game stagnates.

 

 

1. Switch the entire range? People get mad.

 

Well, we'd actually have to see that first. GW has yet to switch the full range. Ever. let's not use the word "switch" though, but the word "update," as it is probably what you mean.

 

2. Update some armies? People get mad.

 

It very much depends on what army is updated. How many times have Space Marines seen model kits updated, in plastic, as opposed to other armies? Multiple times. We're on the *FOURTH* iteration of power armored Tactical Marines and Assault Marines in plastic, and the *THIRD* for Devastator Marines in plastic. And there are all of the starter set versions. For Primaris, we have *TWO* versions of most units: easy-to-build and multi-part. Could we have not seen one or two less iterations of each, and instead seen plastic kits for various Eldar, Ork, Dark Eldar, Necron, Chaos, etc. units, and many of those a decade or more ago instead? And would having those kits for other armies have added more to the game? Surely.

 

3. Update over a long period of time? (paraphrasing you; hopefully accurately) People get mad.

 

GW is responsible for this. When a company can't keep its current armies up-to-date in a reasonable time frame, the last thing they need to do is introduce new armies. I'm looking at you Grey Knights, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Genestealer Cult, Mechanicus, Harlequins, and even Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Tau. There are about *THIRTY* armies requiring multi-model kits unique to them, and most of those armies require many more than one (or a few); especially for non-generic Space Marine forces (i.e. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Dark Angels). Imagine if there were "only" about 20 main armies, with most of those other extras being just that - a few small or one model kits taken as auxiliaries for other forces they go with. But, no, we need a entire force for an army whose job it is to never leave Terra, rather than a single model, or small 3-man unit that could be seconded to an Imperial force as special auxiliaries. I love many of the models of the armies I listed, and have some of those armies, but GW is at fault for overreaching to the point that they are unable to give proper attention to all armies in a reasonable amount of time. I could leave the hobby for *TEN YEARS* and come back to it, and the main difference would be in rules editions, not miniatures, because I'd still be able to say, "Huh. They never got around to making a kit for unit X. Thought they would have got around to doing it that * IN TEN YEARS*."

 

4. Don't update? Game stagnates.

 

Not updating anything will cause stagnation obviously, but one can also update in a completely idiotic manner and so feed the stagnation despite one's efforts.  Here's how one does that:

 

Made up model kit release schedule

 

January - Marines x 3

February - Marines x 2

March - Orks x 1

April - AdMech x 2

May - BOXED GAME!!!

June - Necrons x 1

July - Marines x 2

August - Marines x 1

September - Astra Militarum x 1

October - BOXED GAME!!!

November - Adepta Sororitas x 6

December - Chaos Space Marines x 1

January - Inquisition x 1

February - Adepta Sororitas x 4

....

 

Sadly, that level of army kit distribtuion is not far off the mark. The point is that while GW has been updating things, they have been doing it in the most self-stagnating manner as is possible. They do that by favoring releases for Imperial forces to such an extent that they are equal to or greater than those for the non-Imperial forces combined. Hey, if you love playing a game where you will more often than not be shooting Imperial forces with other Imperial forces, Great! You probably love shooting Stormtroopers with other Stormtroopers when you play Star Wars: Legion. GW even created a game/model range just to do that ( Horus Heresy)! But, if you are somebody who wants to see, let alone play with, one of the many and varied, and interesting alien forces opposing them, well, you will have to get in the charity line, and hope that there is something there for you when it is your turn. GW not only created this situation, but continues to propagate it, and so they bear full responsibility for it. We shouldn't be able to point to a single army in need of *TEN* or more plastic kits for not new units, but *STANDARD UNITS*. And yet we can. We just got the second (of a needed eight!) plastic kits for Eldar Aspect Warriors, and we "only" had to wait 14 years for it! Is that really supposed to excite Eldar players in some meaningful way? But of course! Eldar players, I can feel your excitement! GW has been ramping things up, and you can just feel the momentum building! By the time you are are in your 60's and retired, your Biel-Tan Swordwind armies will hit the tables, and then you'll show them! You'll show them all!!! And don't get me started on the whole, "How many variations of 'Primaris Space Marines with bolters' can we we make?" thing [answer: quite a lot]. This is all about improper allocation of time, effort, and resources.

 

Those are the reasons for stagnation. Imperial forces are all well and good, but one needs the *OPPOSING* forces too, because Inter-team scrimmages are not the height of excitement. [Got a sports reference in there. Man, do I miss sports. ] But, GW has been improving on this, so there is hope. They just need to reallocate their time, effort, and resources more equitably to the various ranges. That is how GW can leave a no-win situation behind and get to at least a "more-win" situation. The game will be much healthier after we see about 20 more kits targeted mostly at Orks and Eldar, with a few more key kits for other armies. At this point, GW can't exactly sideline the Primaris project though - especially because of the "units w/bolters" problem, so there needs to be more of them, so long as those added releases are not more "units w/bolters."

 

And that's the funny thing. Primaris Terminators will likely be yet another "unit w/bolters." But only sort of. Hopefully. They need weapon options, for the whole unit, and not just the usual, "And you can turn that 24" thunder bolter into a 30" range hailstorm bolter with this model bit!" sort of garbage, but up-gunned combi-weapons, heavy weapons, etc. I expect them to be a "pocket battleship" type of unit - very close to what Centurians are. And then Centurians can go away.

Edited May 6, 2020 by shabbadoo

[Berzul]

Actually, I did mean switch.

 

This is simply because I am part of the group that believes that old marines ARE indeed going to be taken out of the game, to be fully replaced by primaris, at some point in the near future.

 

So yeah, not update. Switch.

[Berzul]

Btw, I dont think that is automatically a BAD thing. I justthink its a thing.

[G8Keeper]

I think this is straying far and wide from the topic at hand.

[UtariOnzo]

To go wildly back to the OP, frankly the suit just looks kinda like a slightly modified Indomitus Pattern, fan art or no, and doesn’t seem overly inspired for a Primaris version. I’m not going to speculate on other Primaris Terminator equivalents at this point when it’s taking forever to learn more about the alleged primaris bikers. We could be years out from a Primaris Deathwing unit thanks to the hold up with the current pandemic.

 

I think our Deathwing Knights are pretty safe for now.

[Bryan Blaire]

In the vein of “not outright replacing currently filled niches with Primaris” - what could Primaris Terminators do that isn’t covered by Terminators right now?

 

One of the things I was thinking was bringing more heavy weaponry to bear on a target.

[Berzul]

I think that a Primaris version of a Terminator could be an "upgrade" to the regular thing, in the same way that Intercessors are an "upgrade" to Tactical Marines.

 

They could have an extra wound over the terminator profile, better storm bolters over the storm bolter profile, and the ability to bring in some kind of add-on weapon to bear. Be it maybe explosive rounds, small missiles, or grenade launchers. I would not give them heavier weapons as a norm, as the versatility of the weaponry  in the regular terminator squad is to them, what the versatility of special, combi and heavy weapons is to the tactical squad.

 

In terms of battlefield role, I'd see these guys working as the DW equivalent to the intercerssor.

They'd be able to deepstrike into better positions, withstand a lot of damage, and clear lightly armored critters with a ton of light firepower. This, before charging into combat.

 

For that, I'd go against the tradition of power fists for terminators, and see about giving them some new form of close combat weapon. I'm thinking some form of shock-mace or baton, to act as a parallel to the maces that the Deathwing Knights have. A weapon that hits softer than a power fist, but has no penalization to hit, and is particularly efficient at clearing hordes of enemies. Maybe grating extra attacks when targeting a unit with more than 10 models, or something.

 

So far terminators suffer from the fact that their weapons are either suited to clearing nothing but chaff in the ranged phase, and nothing but vehicles in the melee phase. This unit could be more focused to one task: Taking care of hordes. As big, bulky, stalwart mountains of armor and bad attitude should be, per the lore. So, what they do is drop on the board, make the enemy bleed through a storm of improved bolter fire, and then they jump in with their shock-maces and start playing the galaxy's angriest version of whack-a-mole with the enemy blobs of light infrantry.

 

Let those tarpits evaporate under the preassure of our mighty primarinators!

 

 

I'm thinking:

 

M5", WS3+, BS3+, S4, T4, A2, W3, LD8, 2+/5++

Stormier bolters at 24" rapid fire 2, S4, AP-1, D1

Grenade launcher add-on (one per unit), D3 shots at 12" assault 1, S6, AP-1, D1

Shock-maces, at S+2, AP-1, D1, when the model targets a unit in the combat phase, which has 10 or more models, this model gains +1A

Edited May 7, 2020 by Berzul

[jaxom]

In the vein of “not outright replacing currently filled niches with Primaris” - what could Primaris Terminators do that isn’t covered by Terminators right now?

 

One of the things I was thinking was bringing more heavy weaponry to bear on a target.

 

I think that a Primaris version of a Terminator could be an "upgrade" to the regular thing, in the same way that Intercessors are an "upgrade" to Tactical Marines.

 

It's an interesting question - on one hand we've "Primaris are not meant to be 1:1 replacements with pre-existing marine units" and on the other hand:

• Intercessors are pretty direct to Tactical (minus the weapon options).
• Eliminators are just better than Sniper Scouts.
• There's some overlap in what Incursors, Infiltrators, and Bolter Scouts can bring to an army, but the hardiness of the Primaris compared to the Scouts, I think, alters their use enough.

Of course, we're missing a key point. Models first; what would look cool?

[Bryan Blaire]

The lack of weapon options in the Intercessors is a pretty strong "not replacement" element to me - guess that could just be a personal view. I think that what we are really seeing is the overlap - Intercessors overlap strongly with Tactical squads, but don't do exactly the same things weapon-wise (I personally wouldn't take shots at tanks with Intercessors), Eliminators are very much overlapped with the sniper scouts, but again with weapon option differences, and Incursors and Infiltrators do things differently, but do overlap some as well.

 

But then Hellblasters overlap some with Devastators, but again aren't a direct replacement; Aggressors share some similarities with units, but don't directly replace them either.

 

I mean, they are Marines and share a similar design space, they are going to do some things similarly. That doesn't mean they are direct replacements.

 

So yes, my question is geared toward the "what might they do differently" rather than the "how would they overlap" idea, since that part is pretty boring (in that it's already done, does it matter what you do similarly, just in a little different way).

[Berzul]

And, again, I think that what we lack on the terminator front is a good GEQ clearing unit. A middle ground between a squad full of lightning claws, and a squad full of storm bolters.

 

I'd go with beefier terminators, armed with improved storm bolters (such as in a new pattern, akin to how the intercessor boltgun is better than a regular boltgun), and a weapon that hits well against low T low W models.

 

A S+2, AP0 or AP-1, D1 weapon, that hits extra times (either by a +1A or by exploding 6s when attacking) against units with big model counts. Following the same principle as the Deathwing Champion.

 

Drop down, shoot the chaff, move forward, charge the chaff. Call it an anti-tarpit squad, that can defend your knights from a big blob of cultists, pox walkers, gants, or whathave you, and allow the monster killers to reach the monsters, without having to waste turns against less critical enemies.

That would be a new niche for the Primaris.

[shabbadoo]

 

I'm thinking:

 

M5", WS3+, BS3+, S4, T4, A2, W3, LD8, 2+/5++

Stormier bolters at 24" rapid fire 2, S4, AP-1, D1

Grenade launcher add-on (one per unit), D3 shots at 12" assault 1, S6, AP-1, D1

Shock-maces, at S+2, AP-1, D1, when the model targets a unit in the combat phase, which has 10 or more models, this model gains +1A

Add a wound there (Gravis armor has three wounds), and that would be about right. Also, those are tri-barreled bolters they have (found a better pic not cut off at the top), and I would hope that they would be either Range 30" Rapid Fire 3 or range 24" Assault 6. That might sound sort of high, but with Bolter Drill for others (and the known issues with small elite units not being able to dish out enough damage before being beaten down, and this one would be pricey) I could see it. And it is just a bolter weapon. This would be not only an upgrade to Terminators, but also serve a similar role as Centurians, and so Centurians can be dropped too (being forward thinking ).

[Berzul]

So

 

M5", WS3+, BS3+, S4, T4, A2, W4, Ld8, Sv 2+/5++

Bolters at 24" Assault 6, S4, AP0, D1

Grenade Launcher at 12" Assault D3, S6, AP0, D1

Close combat weapon, S+2, AP0, D1, +1A when targeting a unit that has ten or more models

 

(considering doctrines, the AP0 becomes AP-1 during almost all of the game, so...)

[Bryan Blaire]

I could see a "chaff clearing unit" - a "rotary" bolter weapon like a mini-Avenger mega-bolter (whether it actually spins or not), but I feel like any Deathwing Terminator-esque unit would have a heavier hand to hand weapon than something shock-baton style (when I think of that concept, I see an electrified version of an extendable police baton).