Primaris Terminators

[jaxom]

Compared to Aggressors, you trade T5 and an attack for an extra wound and a 2+/5++ save while getting the same fire output at longer range?

 

I don't know, considering the original picture, I was thinking just upscale the primaris weapons, assume it's bigger Terminator Armour, no other real difference.

 

5" move, S4 T4, 3W (2 normal +1 for the armour) 3A (2 normal +1 for the armour)

Storm Rifle 24" Str 4 AP -1 Rapid Fire 2

 

If the idea is that the unit shouldn't be split down the middle (anti-infantry shooting and anti-tank) then allowing them to take a single (appropriately scaled) lightning claw would do. Seems kind of silly that the loyalists (other than Space Wolves) can't do that.

 

Optional weapon load outs (presumably one per five in the unit) could include replacing the Storm Rifle with a las-talon, onslaught gatling cannon, or accelerator autocannon.   

[Iron Lord]

 

Optional weapon load outs (presumably one per five in the unit) could include replacing the Storm Rifle with a las-talon, onslaught gatling cannon, or accelerator autocannon.   

 

Onslaught gatling cannon,  at least, is a bit  underpowered  (it's got exactly the same stats as the Reaper Chaincannon, which CSM power-armoured squads can take as a heavy weapon). I would think  a "Primaris Terminator Assault Cannon"  would be a bit better than that.

[shabbadoo]

Right. Everything Primaris is improved in some way, either in range, #shots, mobility of shooting, AP,...something. Berzul is right in that Primaris is "just a thing". It's just the new thing.  I think we will see more new things for them, just as we have for each Primaris unit so far. The weaponry is somewhat repetitive, but if one lists all of the armor, weapon variations, and accessory gear, there is a lot of new stuff, and I expect more for every new unit.

[jaxom]

*Looks at terminators, looks at dreadnoughts, looks at redemptor and invictus* ...heavy onslaught gatling cannon or incendium cannon?

[Berzul]

This does feel a bit like pointless escalation to a degree, though.

 

I mean, I am all for the Primarinators to fill in a strategic role that no their unit fills (that would be half of the entire purpose of the unit, after all), but they should be able to find their place without that meaning just getting a bigger, more badass gun. If that was the way to go, then pretty soon the game would break all sense of scale or balance.

[Skywrath]

I think that in Dark Angel terms, you might be getting a unit with psychic support. So I suspect that might be a Librarian Dreadnought, while us, Grey Knights might get something a bit more potent than that. Not really related to terminators per se, but seeing how we are talking about what is revealed next, thought I might throw that in there. 

[Iron Lord]

 

This does feel a bit like pointless escalation to a degree, though.

 

I mean, I am all for the Primarinators to fill in a strategic role that no their unit fills (that would be half of the entire purpose of the unit, after all), but they should be able to find their place without that meaning just getting a bigger, more badass gun. If that was the way to go, then pretty soon the game would break all sense of scale or balance.

 

I'd agree that their weapons should be less good than some existing weapons (though still "better than the average Terminator's")

 

If a mass-producible weapon, is better than relics in the same role, then there may be a problem. 

 

So, compare "Primaris storm bolter" to "Relic storm bolter" - then make it slightly worse. Compare Primaris Power Fist to Relic Power Fist. And so on.

 

 

 

 

Optional weapon load outs (presumably one per five in the unit) could include replacing the Storm Rifle with a las-talon, onslaught gatling cannon, or accelerator autocannon.   

 

 

Using the "slightly better than terminator" kind of formulation, the 4 "Squad Heavy weapon" options should be a slightly better assault cannon, plasma cannon, heavy flamer, and cyclone launcher. (Or possibly slightly better Reaper Autocannon instead of Assault Cannon, if Tarteros Terminators are included as a possible Heavy Weapon counterpart example)

 

Heavy Plasma Incinerator and Flamestorm Cannon (I figure that might be more useful than Incendium cannon, while still filling the same niche) cover two out of four of these  - that just leaves the missile launcher equivalent and the assault cannon/Reaper Autocannon equivalent.

 

Accelerator Autocannons do a good job of being "Better Reaper Autocannons" (range is better, AP is better, lower rate of fire is cancelled out by higher Damage) so that just leaves a Cyclone Missile Launcher counterpart - if we decide that Assault Cannon doesn't need a direct counterpart.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Volt]

Not to get anyone's hopes up, but there is a lot of GW black-and-white art that is cited as being "fanart" at deviantart.com...because somebody added color to it. The same could have been done here. If this isn't, all I can say is that the artist did an amazing job capturing the look and feel of what GW's artists are doing. I hope it is real.

I know the artist, that's Hammk, and that picture is already nearly three years old. It's also pretty easy to spot artist styles with GW's work, and none of their crew does the same faux oil-on-canvas digital style that Hammk uses. Most of it is either pretty clean digital or watercolor-digital like Gallagher's more recent work or Tze Kun Chin's flair.

 

 

 

Trying to nest these properly on mobile is a nightmare, so I'm being lazy.

I can see how there's some logic to that, but I can't buy into it I'm afraid. The Unforgiven have allowed themselves to become focused on the past, that's true. However I think that with the right guidance (that being the Lion himself) they could quickly enough get themselves back on the right path, whatever his vision might be. The Fallen allowed themselves to be turned from their gene-father, if not the Emperor himself, and to commit violence against their brothers. How the Lion would/will deal with Luther, Astelan et al I don't know, but the sins lie more with the offspring than the parent I feel.

 

 

Would firstborn conversion kits work lore-wise? The Primaris are physically bigger, and thus I would assume simply wouldn't fit into mk8 or TDA. This would mean that RW/DW would require entirely new models - new bikes and/or speeders to fit bigger frames, and some form of TDA replacement.

 

 

While I started in the hobby a long time ago, I was always something of a butterfly, and thus don't actually have much in the way of completed models (this will change!). Coming back in my DA-successors will be a mix of both Primaris and (likely a majority of) firstborn, helped in part by a mountain of old plastic, and a fondness for classic metal sculpts.

 

 

If GW had simply made all firstborn obsolete overnight then not only would they have to do all the work beforehand (for generic and named chapters, all unit types etc), they would seriously annoy everyone who had an existing collection (and possibly lose players as a result), and STILL get accused of profiteering because everybody now has to buy new from scratch! I think that doing things how they have is probably about the best route they could have taken.

 

Marines literally have no standardized height and having to make new suits of armor to fit them also makes no sense. There's already no reason why primaris can't use existing marks of power armor due to variable marine height (ranging between 6'6" to 9'), and terminator armor especially should be more than capable of accommodating most primaris with little to no changes.

 

 

I think that a Primaris version of a Terminator could be an "upgrade" to the regular thing, in the same way that Intercessors are an "upgrade" to Tactical Marines.

 

They could have an extra wound over the terminator profile, better storm bolters over the storm bolter profile, and the ability to bring in some kind of add-on weapon to bear. Be it maybe explosive rounds, small missiles, or grenade launchers. I would not give them heavier weapons as a norm, as the versatility of the weaponry  in the regular terminator squad is to them, what the versatility of special, combi and heavy weapons is to the tactical squad.

 

In terms of battlefield role, I'd see these guys working as the DW equivalent to the intercerssor.

 

They'd be able to deepstrike into better positions, withstand a lot of damage, and clear lightly armored critters with a ton of light firepower. This, before charging into combat.

 

For that, I'd go against the tradition of power fists for terminators, and see about giving them some new form of close combat weapon. I'm thinking some form of shock-mace or baton, to act as a parallel to the maces that the Deathwing Knights have. A weapon that hits softer than a power fist, but has no penalization to hit, and is particularly efficient at clearing hordes of enemies. Maybe grating extra attacks when targeting a unit with more than 10 models, or something.

 

So far terminators suffer from the fact that their weapons are either suited to clearing nothing but chaff in the ranged phase, and nothing but vehicles in the melee phase. This unit could be more focused to one task: Taking care of hordes. As big, bulky, stalwart mountains of armor and bad attitude should be, per the lore. So, what they do is drop on the board, make the enemy bleed through a storm of improved bolter fire, and then they jump in with their shock-maces and start playing the galaxy's angriest version of whack-a-mole with the enemy blobs of light infrantry.

 

Let those tarpits evaporate under the preassure of our mighty primarinators!

 

 

I'm thinking:

 

M5", WS3+, BS3+, S4, T4, A2, W3, LD8, 2+/5++

Stormier bolters at 24" rapid fire 2, S4, AP-1, D1

Grenade launcher add-on (one per unit), D3 shots at 12" assault 1, S6, AP-1, D1

Shock-maces, at S+2, AP-1, D1, when the model targets a unit in the combat phase, which has 10 or more models, this model gains +1A

Just load up Primaris Deathwing universally with plasma blasters and chainfists to fit the GW design of mono-weapon squads for primaris but with something that actually hits hard in both shooting and melee. Or hell slap some volkite on it. It'd fit the First to specifically use weapons able to one-shot a fellow Primaris Marine.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Volt

[Iron Lord]

 

 

It'd fit the First to specifically use weapons able to one-shot a fellow Primaris Marine.

 

The compromise between high Damage and high rate of fire is always going to be a little tricky. And ideally, the "basic weapon" should not outstrip Relics.

 

24" Rapid Fire 3, Str 4, AP -0,  D2, maybe? Basically, "Foe-Smiter", but trading AP for rate of fire. This one-shots regular Primaris that fail their save, and smashes hordes thoroughly. Against models with lots of wounds, it's as good as a Hurricane bolter, though Hurricane bolters are better against 1-wound models.

 

 

For comparison, "Gatekeeper", the Custodes Relic spear, has basically the same shooting statline and better AP.

 

 

So, you can point to a "Bolter Relic better than this one" as evidence that this weapon is (slightly) weaker than relics of its type.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Iron Lord

[jaxom]

This does feel a bit like pointless escalation to a degree, though.

 

I mean, I am all for the Primarinators to fill in a strategic role that no their unit fills (that would be half of the entire purpose of the unit, after all), but they should be able to find their place without that meaning just getting a bigger, more badass gun. If that was the way to go, then pretty soon the game would break all sense of scale or balance.

 

Yeah, it's left me a bit confused. Are people statting up a unit based on the initial picture, statting up a unit based on what Primaris terminator "should" be based on the current Primaris units and weapons, statting up a unit that is to Intercessors what Terminators are to Tactical Marines, or something else?

 

 

 

 

Optional weapon load outs (presumably one per five in the unit) could include replacing the Storm Rifle with a las-talon, onslaught gatling cannon, or accelerator autocannon.   

 

 

Using the "slightly better than terminator" kind of formulation, the 4 "Squad Heavy weapon" options should be a slightly better assault cannon, plasma cannon, heavy flamer, and cyclone launcher. 

 

The parity between Terminator heavy weapons and Dreadnought heavy weapons does give a point of comparison we can use. If so, a Primaris Terminatior unit's heavy weapon options would/could be heavy onslaught gatling cannon, heavy plasma incinerator, (twin) ironhail autocannon, and incendium cannon.

 

The compromise between high Damage and high rate of fire is always going to be a little tricky. And ideally, the "basic weapon" should not outstrip Relics.

 

24" Rapid Fire 3, Str 4, AP -0,  D2, maybe? Basically, "Foe-Smiter", but trading AP for rate of fire. This one-shots regular Primaris that fail their save, and smashes hordes thoroughly. Against models with lots of wounds, it's as good as a Hurricane bolter, though Hurricane bolters are better against 1-wound models.

 

 

For comparison, "Gatekeeper", the Custodes Relic spear, has basically the same shooting statline and better AP.

 

 

So, you can point to a "Bolter Relic better than this one" as evidence that this weapon is (slightly) weaker than relics of its type.

 

If I'm remembering correctly, the most common difference between a normal weapon and a relic weapon is the extra point of damage.

 

I think the weapon load out is probably the most contentious item. If we're looking at a unit which is "Terminators But Better" then a mixed weapon load out is the way to go. If we're looking at a unit which continues the more mono-task trend of existing Primaris units then keying in on the unit's role is important. Third option is going with what would look cool and then statting that up.

[Iron Lord]

 

 

If I'm remembering correctly, the most common difference between a normal weapon and a relic weapon is the extra point of damage.

 

It  is - especially for Master Crafted Weapons - though  many have higher Str and AP as well. Some even get higher range.

 

The Master Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle is one of the rare examples of a bolt weapon that's Damage 2,  but has only the same Str and AP as the regular version.

 

Hurricane Bolters are one of the few Dreadnought-class weapons that can be carried on something smaller, like a Devastator Centurion, or a Custodes jetbike.

 

Hence my "half a Hurricane Bolter, but mastercrafted" idea for the Primaris Terminator's basic weapon. We know that there's a Custodes relic bolter that does the same thing but better (higher AP, plus better on overwatch). So I could see Cawl designing a slightly inferior version of that relic bolter.

 

 

The parity between Terminator heavy weapons and Dreadnought heavy weapons does give a point of comparison we can use. If so, a Primaris Terminatior unit's heavy weapon options would/could be heavy onslaught gatling cannon, heavy plasma incinerator, (twin) ironhail autocannon, and incendium cannon.

 

 

Yup - though generally, Terminator weapons are a bit less powerful than Dreadnought heavy weapons.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Iron Lord