How many CP would you need for a smooth game?

[Skywrath]

Title. It appears that GK need at least a double battalion to sustain their onslaught (which by my calculations is about 12CP). In a game of 1750 - 2000 points, how many CP would you recommend? To further complete the picture, what stratagems do you use frequently use? 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Seizeman]

Yes, double battalion is pretty much mandatory, 8-9 CP are not enough. You always want Santic shard and Matrix so that leaves you with 12. As for most used stratagems (for reference, I use the standard competitive doble paladin list):

• Ony in death does duty end: for 1 CP is super cheap, so I use it every time one of my characters dies in combat, pretty much.
• Honour the chapter: don't use it very much because it's very expensive and paladins kill most things in a single round anyway, but I've used it some times. I've used it to kill important characters, killing the screen on the first round and consolidating into the characters behind.
• Psychic channeling: i've used it a couple times to make sure a unit dies to inner fire or that a devastating vortex of doom goes of.
• Armoury of titan: it's usually worth to spend 2CP to take the Augurium scrolls if you play against a melee focused army that does not have good shooting.
• Psybolt ammunition: most powerful offensive strat we have. Paladins with 40 S6 AP-1 D2 shots hitting on 3+ (or 2+) rerolling are stupid. I use it once on turn 1 almost every game, some times twice (depending on how long I can afford to keep tide of convergence up) on turn one and once again in turn 2. Game-winning in some matchups.
• Transhuman physiology: It's usually redundant because of armoured resilience and sanctuary. It's nice to have for specific situations, but I don't use it unless it makes a big difference.
• Masters of combat: the anti-posessed stratagem. Only useful if your paldins are going to be anihilated, but game-winning in those scenarios.
• Dynamic insertion: very rarely used to snipe a character or set up a nice vortex. Very niche.
• Fury of the proven: used mainly against -1 to hit targets or if the math indicates that I need it to reliably kill something.
• Powerful adept: used in conjunction with inner fire and nothing else.
• Epyric surge: I use it turn 1 and 2 almost every game, sometimes turn 3. Extremely good and pivotal in making your psychic phase (and, thus, your game) a success.
• Redoubtable defense: the best defensive stratagem and fundamental to make grey knights competitive. Used pretty much every turn on your big paladin squads and sometimes on your characters (por a measly CP) in the late game.

[Lemondish]

Agreed with Seizeman, except this part:

 

"Dynamic insertion: very rarely used to snipe a character or set up a nice vortex. Very niche."

 

I use this nearly every game in turns 2 and 3 to contest objectives, especially back field ones. It can turn seemingly unattainable maelstrom cards into totally viable sources of VP, if you're a fan of that format. For ITC, it can have a major impact on achieving or denying hold more.

[Skywrath]

Yeah, something I disagree with as well, Lemondish. I frequently use it to get my Paladins in combat (which might be a bad idea??). 

[Seizeman]

How do you use it to get your paladins in combat, exactly?

[Skywrath]

Quite simply, I use it, shoot, pop a defensive strat in the turn of the opponent and wait until next turn to charge. Not saying it's a good idea though.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Seizeman]

Well, that means your paladins don't have any psychic buffs and are probably out of cover, so that's a big problem and means they are most likely get slaughtered, so i'ts basically impossible to use effectively in a competitive environment. but technically it could work in some situations, I guess.

 

Similarly, It's almost impossible to use the stratagem to contest a backfield objective unless your opponent is stupid, since it takes a single model on top of the objective to make that idea useless (and it will be way more than that, usually). Yes, there's a extremely low that it happens in some game, and in that case it will be usefu, but, as I said, It's very niche.

 

Using it it to contest a neutral objective that your opponent is barely in range of is more realistic, but still extremely situational.

[Lemondish]

Well, that means your paladins don't have any psychic buffs and are probably out of cover, so that's a big problem and means they are most likely get slaughtered, so i'ts basically impossible to use effectively in a competitive environment. but technically it could work in some situations, I guess.

 

Similarly, It's almost impossible to use the stratagem to contest a backfield objective unless your opponent is stupid, since it takes a single model on top of the objective to make that idea useless (and it will be way more than that, usually). Yes, there's a extremely low that it happens in some game, and in that case it will be usefu, but, as I said, It's very niche.

 

Using it it to contest a neutral objective that your opponent is barely in range of is more realistic, but still extremely situational.

What you've described is a desperation move. Placing a model in clear line of sight, perhaps even out of cover, on top of an objective marker, just to deny my ability to contest means that all other methods of screening or protection failed. That's a last ditch effort to deny it from me. Not a clever bigbrain play. I'll see it telegraphed and clear that objective after dropping in hot anyway. If I can't have it, you won't either, and you'll find it insanely difficult to screen for a 3" deep strike when you would normally only need to prepare for 9.

 

Out of every person I've spoken to, and every tactics breakdown I've read and watched, and from a dozen games in TTS once the world shutdown, yours has been the only voice I've seen saying this is niche.

 

Trust me, folks - this Stratagem is clutch.

[Seizeman]

I don't know if you are trying to counter any of my arguments or just reinforcing them. You are saying that what I discribed is unrealistic and pretty much useless, which is exactly the point I was making? I don't fully understand what you are trying to say, could you rephrase it in a clearer way?

 

In any case, you haven't explained how you contest a backfield objective with it.

[Lemondish]

I don't know if you are trying to counter any of my arguments or just reinforcing them. You are saying that what I discribed is unrealistic and pretty much useless, which is exactly the point I was making? I don't fully understand what you are trying to say, could you rephrase it in a clearer way?

 

In any case, you haven't explained how you contest a backfield objective with it.

No, what I'm saying is the act of trying to deny giving up an objective to insertion by placing a model out of cover, in the open, directly on the middle of an objective marker all in an attempt to deny capture, is an act of desperation.

 

Everything you've said about the niche uses of this tactic are wrong. It is a key method to contest an objective, even when the opponent has tried something silly like sticking their head out just to block you.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Lemondish

[Seizeman]

So, you are assuming that backfield objective markers are always less than 3" away from cover but not in cover?? That's absolute nonsense.

 

If the opponent places an objective in their deployment zone, it will be in cover, so what you said does not apply, as he can be on top of the objective AND in cover.

 

If you place the objective in the opponent's deployment zone, it will be as far from cover as possible, so the opponent has to be out of cover if he wants to hold it. Are you suggesting that the correct play for your opponent is to stay in cover and not hold the objective?? And how do you punish them being in the open on their backfield? Are you going to snipe them across the board with your 24" weapons?

 

And, if objective placement is fixed and the one in their backfield happens to be near cover, how do you prevent the opponent from moving from cover to the top of the objective on their turn? It's literally impossible for you to deep strike in range of the objective if the opponent does not want you to.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Seizeman

[Dam13n]

=][= Let's not have this descend into a circular argument, please. Remember the OPs question(s) and stop chasing this one tangent to the detriment of the topic. Take a breath and cool off, otherwise you might force more than a nudge from us (the mods). =][=

[Gaz1858]

I find a Brigade is easy to put together in GK. our elite and FA slots all have worthy options and at the very least a Purgation squad is basically a strike squad. Theres 15CP and you might have enough left for another Det

[Skywrath]

I can't believe I completely forgot about the Brigade option.. I will do that from now on. So the general consensus is about 10-15CP, I take it. Now the question I ask is do we need that many CP for any list in general, or is that a niche only for the double paladin bomb (meaning other non paladin bombs lists can get away with less)?

 

Another question that occurred to - besides the smites being different of the strike squads, purgation squads, purifier squads, what else separates them? Also it is my intuition that the purifiers are the the ones more likely to be melee focused, while the other two are more ranged? 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[WAR]

 

Another question that occurred to - besides the smites being different of the strike squads, purgation squads, purifier squads, what else separates them? Also it is my intuition that the purifiers are the the ones more likely to be melee focused, while the other two are more ranged? 

 

Purifiers can take 2 incinerators/ psilencers/ psycannons at 5 man and 4 at 10 man. So if taken at full 10 you can combat squad them into 4 "special/ Heavy" and a regular dude and have the other 5 running for combat.  So 1 elite choice doing the work of a  troop choice without the ability to deep strike for free, and a heavy support.

[Seizeman]

Strikes can deep strike and are troops (so they give you CP and have obsec), purifiers have useless smites, purgators can take useless weapons. They are basically the same in everything else.

 

You only need that many CP in the paladin list. In non-competive lists you don't really have that many good uses for CP.

[Valerian]

I find a Brigade is easy to put together in GK. our elite and FA slots all have worthy options and at the very least a Purgation squad is basically a strike squad. Theres 15CP and you might have enough left for another Det

How are you fitting a Brigade of Grey Knights into a 2,000 point list, and making it playable? That’s a minimum of 60 models in Power Armour, just to meet the Troops, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support requiremts. Doesn’t even touch on the Elites and HQ yet.

[Lemondish]

 

I find a Brigade is easy to put together in GK. our elite and FA slots all have worthy options and at the very least a Purgation squad is basically a strike squad. Theres 15CP and you might have enough left for another Det

How are you fitting a Brigade of Grey Knights into a 2,000 point list, and making it playable? That’s a minimum of 60 models in Power Armour, just to meet the Troops, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support requiremts. Doesn’t even touch on the Elites and HQ yet.

The funny part is that it is definitely doable by going MSU Interceptor and Purgation squads and with some generic HQs you could then be left with at least 576 points for filling out the elite slot.

 

The problem of course being that the things folks are fueling with CP happen to be Paladins, and you won't be able to fit in more than one 10 model Paladin squad.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Lemondish

[Gaz1858]

 

I find a Brigade is easy to put together in GK. our elite and FA slots all have worthy options and at the very least a Purgation squad is basically a strike squad. Theres 15CP and you might have enough left for another Det

How are you fitting a Brigade of Grey Knights into a 2,000 point list, and making it playable? That’s a minimum of 60 models in Power Armour, just to meet the Troops, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support requiremts. Doesn’t even touch on the Elites and HQ yet.

6 Strike Squads

3 Interceptor Squads

3 Psycannon Purgation squads

 

1113 points. Its pretty easy to make a brigade..... 877pts left for 3 elites and 3 HS. I ran one before PA came out and tabled both Tau and a BA/Marine army