Barebones Lieutenants?

[t-dog1996]

I used to run 3 Captains in my BA list, two Smash Captains with jump packs and one foot captain with a relic blade to stay back and protect the shooty elements of my army. I have to say the foot captain has done serious work for me, but I'm increasingly thinking that I should replace him with a Lieutenant, both to save points and because I already have two reroll hits auras on the table so it makes sense to have reroll wounds in there somewhere too.

 

That led me to think about what I should equip him with, and I have to ask, what are people's opinions on running barebones regular Lieutenants? I mean literally just a guy with a Chainsword, a Bolt Pistol and a reroll aura for 60 points. Personally I don't see much point in spending points kitting out a Lieutenant or forking out for a Primaris upgrade. The only reason you take one is for that reroll wounds aura, anything else you'd be better off taking a Captain who is simply better in every other respect and can be given more powerful weapons anyway. And even then a Lieutenant with a chainsword could do some late game work. 6 attacks (3 base, +1 chainsword, +1 shock assault, +1 savage echoes) at AP-1 with +1 to wound is nothing to be sniffed at.

 

What do people think about this? Could the Lieutenant work barebones? Should he be given a weapon beyond a chainsword? Is it worth upgrading to Primaris?

[Diagramdude]

A 2K competitive BA list is going to usually want two battalions and a vanguard or third battalion. The BA HQ slots are very competitive and you'll only have 5 or 6 HQs since you need as much actual beef as possible. Mephiston and two captains are generally autoincludes, plus a chaplain. So the lieutenant will be competing with the Sanguinor, Libby Dread, Sanguinary Priest etc for the few remaining slots. 

Another knock on the lieutenant is the Sanguinary Ancient gives reroll 1's to wound in melee where the BA do most of their work, and you'll almost always want to take the ancient anyway for the FNP banner.  

[Xenith]

I believe the question was about a model to babysit shooting units right, not changing the whole army to be super competitive.

 

If he's sitting back I'd consider a ranged option, combi plas maybe, but then points increase to Primaris levels. In that case a stalker bolter might put in some work.

[t-dog1996]

I believe the question was about a model to babysit shooting units right, not changing the whole army to be super competitive.

 

If he's sitting back I'd consider a ranged option, combi plas maybe, but then points increase to Primaris levels. In that case a stalker bolter might put in some work.

 

I do want my army to be competitive, but yes in this case I needed a buff vector for my Leviathan and my Contemptor Mortis. Stalker Bolter is an interesting idea but I don't believe a Lieutenant can take one. That said, the Master Crafted Boltgun he can take is probably worth it.

 

 

A 2K competitive BA list is going to usually want two battalions and a vanguard or third battalion. The BA HQ slots are very competitive and you'll only have 5 or 6 HQs since you need as much actual beef as possible. Mephiston and two captains are generally autoincludes, plus a chaplain. So the lieutenant will be competing with the Sanguinor, Libby Dread, Sanguinary Priest etc for the few remaining slots. 

 

Another knock on the lieutenant is the Sanguinary Ancient gives reroll 1's to wound in melee where the BA do most of their work, and you'll almost always want to take the ancient anyway for the FNP banner.  

 

 

For what it's worth, my army also includes a Sanguinary Ancient with the Standard of Sacrifice, but that guy will be accompanying my Sanguinary Guard bomb not sitting back with the dreadnoughts! I believe that with psykers it's either Mephiston or Libby Dread but not both. These days I lean towards Mephiston because of his extra deny and strong FNP. As for the priest, he won't be able to keep up with the Captains and coming out of deep strike there's too much risk of him failing his charge and leaving his aura unused. And the Sanguinor is certainly an option but it's either him or one of the Smash Captains for me, not in addition to them.

 

I think the Lieutenant certainly has a role in a competitive list. The dreadnoughts force the opponent to either focus fire on them or ignore them to focus on melee units and suffer accordingly, but they need some kind of buff vector to pump their strength up and the question was about whether a Lieutenant taken barebones would be worth it or if he should be given some proper weapons to help earn his keep.

[Klazien]

On the simple backfield LT I would say bare bones is great for what your looking for. Maybe add a Stormbolter if you have the points left over. If you have a few more points the Primaris with mastercrafted auto or stalker is almost worth it for the slightly beefier stat/ way better gun.

 

One thing is you dont have to run 2 Captain Smashes. A LT can be run as a Smash LT instead of a second Captain. I've been running one of these guys all year. The LT is my Warlord with death visions+WLT, Thunder Hammer/JP icon of the angel (118). I've found it's takes the place of a Sanguinary ancient, fills a HQ, comes in cheaper than a Captain while being the perfect synergy with SG. The WL Smash Lt goes straight with the Sanguinary Guard for the Reroll charges, reroll all hits, reroll 1s to wound. And with the icon he has a good chance to make it in to assualt himself after SG use decent. Just something I think people over look with the our HQ slots.

 

This started for me with trying to figure out how to do terminators. The Smash LT is what i found works. You just pop Strike of the Archangels (2cp) for the terminator to reroll all hits for the Turn. Just hope you make the assualt with a 71% with +1 and icon rerolls.

 

 

Edits: I word bad. Lol

Edited April 27, 2020 by Klazien

[Diagramdude]

If you do want to run a lieutenant I think the primaris upgrade is worth it for sure. 69 pts for the primaris vs 63 for the lieutenant, and the primaris lieutenant has the longer range rifle that you can take Quake Bolts on to fell a target and give your melee +1 to hit against.

[CaptainHelion]

I've a foot Lieutenant with MC Bolter and a power fist, and he's been very reliable for me.

[Xenith]

That said, if you're looking at adding 70pts or so in the frm of a Lt to support dreads...can you rustle up another 30pts and just take another dread? 96pts gets you a heavy plasma+missile launcher, hich is I believe the cheapest option.

[Karhedron]

I run a cheapish Lt with Storm bolter and power sword (since that is what the model carries). The SB is good with Bolter Drill as he is often stationary so usually gets his 4 shots out to 24". The power sword is a bit of a luxury but has come in handy occasionally against Deep Strikers trying to silence my heavy guns and 4 points for AP-3 is not a bad deal. He usually carries the Veritas Vitae as he is not a front-line character so usually survives the battle.

 

That said, Xenith makes a good point that you are not far off the points needed for another shooty unit and more shots is usually better than rerolls. I believe a squad of Eliminators starts at 72 points. Would that give a better return on the points than an LT?

Edited April 28, 2020 by Karhedron

[Panzer]

I got a Lieutenant model I really like but I unfortunately have to say there's simply no room for him in any of my lists. Re-roll 1s to wound is not that good or needed and other than that he is really expensive for what he does.

[Karhedron]

I got a Lieutenant model I really like but I unfortunately have to say there's simply no room for him in any of my lists. Re-roll 1s to wound is not that good or needed and other than that he is really expensive for what he does.

Statistically, rerolling 1s to-Wound is as good as rerolling 1s to-Hit. Unless you are dealing with plasma, a LT is a more efficient buffing character than a Captain. Of course a Captain is more potent in other areas of combat. Is the Lt worth taking for his buff alone? That is a good question.

 

I tend to run dual-battalion and at 1500 points those 4 HQ slots cost a significant chunk of my points. The Lt seems like the cheapest HQ tax. My army is all-infantry and a Techmarine would be very limited in capability. The LT costs a few more points but can buff my firebase quite effectively.

[Panzer]

 

I got a Lieutenant model I really like but I unfortunately have to say there's simply no room for him in any of my lists. Re-roll 1s to wound is not that good or needed and other than that he is really expensive for what he does.

Statistically, rerolling 1s to-Wound is as good as rerolling 1s to-Hit. Unless you are dealing with plasma, a LT is a more efficient buffing character than a Captain. Of course a Captain is more potent in other areas of combat. Is the Lt worth taking for his buff alone? That is a good question.

 

I tend to run dual-battalion and at 1500 points those 4 HQ slots cost a significant chunk of my points. The Lt seems like the cheapest HQ tax. My army is all-infantry and a Techmarine would be very limited in capability. The LT costs a few more points but can buff my firebase quite effectively.

 

 

Yeah but a Captain offers so much more than a Lieutenant on top of the aura and since we mostly want to get into melee we can just take a Chaplain or Sanguinary Ancient (which can also carry the SoS) for a better re-roll aura. A cheap HQ is worth nothing if it doesn't fit into your army.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Fluff-reasons aside, I’d rather take a Sanguinary Priest or Chaplain as “cheap” secondary HQ models as they offer better utility with the rest of the army in my opinion. BA already wound lots of infantry on 3’s or 2’s, the re-roll of 1’s is a bit less important than re-rolls to hit.

 

We have so many really good characters that provide incredible synergy with our army that a regular Lieutenant seems a bit underwhelming in comparison.

 

To the Mephiston-or-Libby Dread Statement from t-dog: I used to look at this in the same way, but they can both work in the same list, just not in the same role. Give the Biomantic Sarcophagus, shield and unleash rage to the librarian dreadnought, and wings and quickening to Mephiston. You have one still kind of scary combat Psyker with long-ranged buff spells (as in +6” long) and a daemon prince on crack cocaine to take out whatever is needed.

[Majkhel]

At one time, I've been contemplating a Lieutenant to buff lascanons - those are pricey, few, quality shots and they've been a hit-or-miss for me due to their limited number. A lieutenant seemed like a good idea to help them get through.

However I never got to use one as I moved from lascanons toward our combined and melee options more. He seemed like an unnecessary points increase to just buff a round or two of shooting.

 

I admit my view of him is limited to that one use only.

[Xenith]

I really think you need to be getting that LT in range of 9 lascannons or so to make use of that reroll - then I think he becomes more efficient than just adding more lascannons. 

 

Again, I hate to compare everything to dreads or other, but you can get a twin las razorback for 110pts, which is, I think, a more efficient use of points than a reroll.

[Montoya]

No matter how many times I have tried to fit a lieutenant into my list, they never make the cut.   

 

Even when I overtly start with a lieutenant, I usually get to the end and find I can better spend those 60-80 points elsewhere much better.

 

Unfortunately I have like 3 primaris lieutenant pieces that I quite like, but they never see the light of day  (the two from the original primaris box plus the Blood Angel one that came out)