List Making Confessions

[Prot]

So guys (and gals?) I've been trying hard to make a cohesive list for my next game.

 

So far it's been unsuccessful. If you've seen my thread I have a decent amount painted, and a larger amount unpainted.

 

I've wanted to post a list, but I don't have a clue on the direction anymore. The list seems infinitely complex, and probably to my detriment. I play in a fairly competitive environment, and my last Deathwatch game (I want to say about a month ago -pre-doctrines) I really got my butt handed to me by a competitive Necron army. 

 

This very same Necron army I beat with my Thousand Sons, White Scars, etc. So this forced me to remake my list with the new rules in mind.

 

The problem is I'm not sure of the direction:

 

The squads can be infinitely complex. But competitive play usually over simplifies the lists: IE: tons of vet squads with Stormbolters and shields. I think that's a bit boring. So let me throw out some of the basics of what I'm trying to build around.

 

Please keep in mind I often play against: Blood Angels (Smash Capts, Leviathan Dread, Etc) Tau (triptide), Deathguard, Necrons (Heavy Wraith/Destoyer builds). Dark Eldar (Massed flyers, very shooty), GSC, Tyranids.

 

- I gave up on the Repulsor. I hate to do it, but it's a liability in an army with just one or two vehicles (Ven Dread). Do you agree it's a bad idea?

 

- Primaris. I happen to really like Primaris. I play White Scars almost 100% Primaris (plus scouts). I wanted to use my Stalker Bolter Primaris squad, and an older squad of Hellblasters and Intercessors dropping in.

 

- Vets: Usually I try to fit 4 Vet squads. Mostly they are kind of boring... I use Stormbolters, and Shields, and usually 2 Frag Cannons per squad. Additionally I throw in a  squad with shields and 2-3 missile launchers for heavy weapon solutions. 

 

- Dreadnought. Las/Missile launcher. Typically works with the above squad for taking down bigger nasties. The Dread can use Wisdom of the Ancients to help out the Missile squad.

 

- Army Composition: Dual Battalion - We are so CP intensive, I like to use a Dual batt.

 

- HQ's.  I'm a bit guilty of liking to use 'fun' staples here: Artemis, Watchmaster, at least one Libby, a Termie Captain, and now a Chappy.

 

- Odds and ends: Sometimes a Razorback/Rhino. 1 Corvus usually works its way in just because it looks cool and the  strat for Big Guns helps.

 

So what do you guys think? Am I asking too much of the units I own? (I really hate souping up). Is there something you can think of that I'm not leveraging that I really should? What about common units like Termies? Or is it all about Troop squads of Vets/Intercessors?

 

 

 

[Mr4Minutes]

Before we go too deep on list building (this thread may be focusing on improving your list, but it definitely can help everyone) what format do you play?

 

Maelstrom, eternal war CA19, ITC etc.

 

Gives us a starting point on what win conditions to look for.

[Mobius0288]

And honestly, I find it easier to analyze a list your currently working on so I can pick out potential issues.

 

Generally I think your vets are on point composition-wise. The HQs don't seem like bad choices. The big thing with the units (and accompanying HQs) is deliver. Do they all arrive together for the buffs? Do you charge and leave your HQs behind? Do you use the beacon angelis? Do you use drop pods for turn 1 pushes vs a turn 2 push? Do you have flexibility of movement if one of your flanks collapses?

 

I know have experience with DW and non-DW armies but I'm just using the questions to help point out some of the important differences for the army. More analyzing to follow in another post..

[Mobius0288]

 

- I gave up on the Repulsor. I hate to do it, but it's a liability in an army with just one or two vehicles (Ven Dread). Do you agree it's a bad idea?

Competitively speaking, both repulsors are too expensive for what they do in Deathwatch. Moving them forward makes them first turn targets, but not moving them eliminates the ability to use them as transports. Mortis contemptors, relic contemptors and chaplain dreads have been the ideal choices for anti-tank, with venerable dreads and razorbacks coming up as the best choices that aren't forgeworld. That said, 2 or 3 Ven Dreads AND a vet unit with a couple missile launchers have been enough for me. And honestly, the missile launcher vets are a bit underrated. They are great anti-infantry support when you deep strike and cap backfield objectives. Mortis Contemptors are the absolutely best bang for your buck, but also consider ven dreads and and razorbacks being one of the cheapest platforms to actually bring a twin-lascannon. Your only other options are the landraiders and repulsors. At least now we have Vengeance of the machine spirit to shoot with said landraiders/repulsors before removing them. Also, landraiders are pretty decent for their price despite being picked on.

 

 

 

- Primaris. I happen to really like Primaris. I play White Scars almost 100% Primaris (plus scouts). I wanted to use my Stalker Bolter Primaris squad, and an older squad of Hellblasters and Intercessors dropping in.

Stalker intercessors for us have THE longest range and they just got better with option to sniper characters. For the sniping role, it could still be argued that an assassin could cost you less (CP, firepower). The other two versions gained a bonus on turn 2 deep strikes in the mono army, and the rapid fire ones became pretty strong in terms of dmg output. In the end, it gave us the flexibility to take either option. I don't think one is a must take over the other... it really just depends on how much CP you plan to spend. They all have their place.

 

 

 

- HQ's.  I'm a bit guilty of liking to use 'fun' staples here: Artemis, Watchmaster, at least one Libby, a Termie Captain, and now a Chappy.

I don't think there's a "wrong" HQ choice necessarily, as long as you can deliver them or ensure they are positioned for best effect. For me, I don't think librarians are all that great in the back field. They can put out mortal wounds so stick that sucker up front and pump them out. Put him in a drop pod with a malleus inquisitor and now you have 4 powers and 4 denies on turn 1. Chaplains got great as they can now sit in the back and help, while being the cheapest HQ option for dual battalions. The watchmaster is worth his points every time. Artemis can be a beast but he is an offensive character, so walking him up the board can hurt you for a turn or two. Deep striking and drop pods are our friends. Small optimizations could be argued for jump packs vs terminator armor, as well as power weapon choices.

 

 

Lastly I would say I don't see any units being under-utilized. The big thing we struggle with is the vehicles vs troop numbers (been a thing since index :) ). You want a Blackstar? Cool, that's ~220 pts gone... and all that was for infantry shredding and transport. Or should I deep strike a unit for a CP so I can bring 2 more 5-man units of stalker intercessors that can reach across the board? But without the blackstar, how will you position a vangaurd vet unit on turn 2 in order to move, charge and assassinate a warlord hiding behind a screen of guard? Or can I pull off my goal with something cheaper like an assassin, so I again get more points to spend on troops in order to push objectives? It's an endless circle of optimization but ultimately there is a point where style can reach optimization.

 

Tried to give thought processes rather than a pre-made list. I can still throw some up there if need be.

[Prot]

Before we go too deep on list building (this thread may be focusing on improving your list, but it definitely can help everyone) what format do you play?

 

Maelstrom, eternal war CA19, ITC etc.

 

Gives us a starting point on what win conditions to look for.

 

In order of preference/volume of games: 1. Maelstrom CA19. 2. ITC. It's mixed in frequently enough but we go full tilt on it during tournament time.

 

And honestly, I find it easier to analyze a list your currently working on so I can pick out potential issues.

 

Generally I think your vets are on point composition-wise. The HQs don't seem like bad choices. The big thing with the units (and accompanying HQs) is deliver. Do they all arrive together for the buffs? Do you charge and leave your HQs behind? Do you use the beacon angelis? Do you use drop pods for turn 1 pushes vs a turn 2 push? Do you have flexibility of movement if one of your flanks collapses?

 

I know have experience with DW and non-DW armies but I'm just using the questions to help point out some of the important differences for the army. More analyzing to follow in another post..

 

I didn't put a list forward because I'm starting to think it just needs to be completely scrapped. I have old holdover ideas that I believe are making it worse than it should be. For instance I started White Scars about 2 months ago, and right away my list design is totally different and far more successful than my Deathwatch (though I really don't think it should be). 

 

HQ's are always active, since the aura's and buffs are critical. 

I have 2 pods I like to use intermittently

I was using the Repulsor to set up a gunline and protect characters from snipers, etc. (But again I think it's just too awkward for current 40k)

I usually take the Beacon, and the Tome of Ectoclades. Typically I'm trying to farm CP back as well. 

[Qui-Gon]

@ Prot: I have been forcing myself to run a primarily Primaris list. This is the current version of the list after the latest rules drop. I know it has problems, but I am happy with the state of it because I get enough of everything I want. There is no perfect list (I can argue that my not-primaris list is far better than this one). There is only acceptable performance lists.

 

This is a double battalion list, just used unbound to avoid nonsense formatting from BS.

 

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Imperium - Deathwatch) [125 PL, 1,998pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Librarian [6 PL, 90pts]: Force sword, Storm Bolter

 

Primaris Chaplain [6 PL, 77pts]

 

Primaris Watch Captain [6 PL, 86pts]: Power sword

. Master-crafted auto bolt rifle & bolt pistol: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

Watch Master [7 PL, 115pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessors [16 PL, 292pts]

. Aggressor

. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

. Aggressor

. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

. Aggressor

. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

. Aggressor

. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

. Inceptor

. . Two Assault Bolters: 2x Assault bolter

. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor Sergeant: Auto Bolt Rifle, Power fist

 

Intercessors [12 PL, 198pts]

. Inceptor

. . Two Assault Bolters: 2x Assault bolter

. Intercessor: Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt rifle

. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt rifle, Chainsword

 

Intercessors [10 PL, 170pts]

. Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Stalker Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword, Stalker Bolt Rifle

 

Intercessors [16 PL, 292pts]

. Aggressor

. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

. Aggressor

. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

. Aggressor

. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

. Aggressor

. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

. Inceptor

. . Two Assault Bolters: 2x Assault bolter

. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle

. Intercessor Sergeant: Auto Bolt Rifle, Power fist

 

Veterans [9 PL, 106pts]

. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield

. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield

. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield

. Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon

. Watch Sergeant: Storm Bolter, Storm shield

 

Veterans [9 PL, 106pts]

. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield

. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield

. Veteran: Storm Bolter, Storm shield

. Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon

. Watch Sergeant: Storm Bolter, Storm shield

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought [9 PL, 168pts]

. Two twin lascannons: 2x Twin lascannon

 

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought [9 PL, 168pts]

. Two twin lascannons: 2x Twin lascannon

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Drop Pod [5 PL, 65pts]: Storm bolter

 

Drop Pod [5 PL, 65pts]: Storm bolter

 

 

If you have questions or need clarifications, just comment what you want clarified.

[Prot]

This list is interesting. I definitely appreciate the volume of Primaris. I too really enjoy the Primaris line. 

 

What I think I would struggle with here is the Tau lists I face. 2 nights ago I faced a 6man deepstriking battlesuit squad that shot 12 shots each. It was letting out 72 shots a turn, on top of the riptides, and I think I would have lost that game if it weren't for my Impulsors (White Scars). So many Xenos are just so good at killing marines. 

 

My other struggles (I think) would be the mechanized lists. Getting into that mid range and trusting... I'm assuming +1 to wound to get those Stalkers through is a lot of work. I love the Contemptors. I use one frequently in some of my lists...I only own one.

 

It does look like in the right match up you are probably smashing through those heavy infantry lists without breaking much of a sweat!

[Debauchery101]

I would replace that inceptor with an aggressor in the unit of intercessors. Give them autobolters. They can deep strike and waste almost anything with bolt storm and vengeance rounds during tac doctrine...the next turn either your opponent crushes them or you get to pop bolt storm again but now you get to shoot twice...auto hitting -3 ap shots

[Qui-Gon]

This list is interesting. I definitely appreciate the volume of Primaris. I too really enjoy the Primaris line. 

 

What I think I would struggle with here is the Tau lists I face. 2 nights ago I faced a 6man deepstriking battlesuit squad that shot 12 shots each. It was letting out 72 shots a turn, on top of the riptides, and I think I would have lost that game if it weren't for my Impulsors (White Scars). So many Xenos are just so good at killing marines. 

 

My other struggles (I think) would be the mechanized lists. Getting into that mid range and trusting... I'm assuming +1 to wound to get those Stalkers through is a lot of work. I love the Contemptors. I use one frequently in some of my lists...I only own one.

 

It does look like in the right match up you are probably smashing through those heavy infantry lists without breaking much of a sweat!

 

This list is untested, as I've not been able to get a game in since the rules dropped due to the whole covid matter, but I have faith that it will perform halfway decently against an all mech list. As for that tau list matter, Tau is just going to be Tau.

 

I would replace that inceptor with an aggressor in the unit of intercessors. Give them autobolters. They can deep strike and waste almost anything with bolt storm and vengeance rounds during tac doctrine...the next turn either your opponent crushes them or you get to pop bolt storm again but now you get to shoot twice...auto hitting -3 ap shots

 

In that, you are wrong. Vengence round auto bolt rifles using boltstorm doesn't work coming out the teleportarium. Certainly it optimizes a little better than normal bolt rifles for the AP and rounds with the addition of tactical doctrine, but it loses outright to Rapid Fire with a Watch Master nearby. (9 dudes using rapid fire with full re-rolls equates to 31 hits vs 27 hits of 9 dudes with auto bolt rifles auto hitting.) Furthermore, once the unit is tagged in melee, what are you going to do then? Sit there with thumb up ass and lose all the firepower that the unit is providing.

[Debauchery101]

 

 

This list is interesting. I definitely appreciate the volume of Primaris. I too really enjoy the Primaris line.

 

What I think I would struggle with here is the Tau lists I face. 2 nights ago I faced a 6man deepstriking battlesuit squad that shot 12 shots each. It was letting out 72 shots a turn, on top of the riptides, and I think I would have lost that game if it weren't for my Impulsors (White Scars). So many Xenos are just so good at killing marines.

 

My other struggles (I think) would be the mechanized lists. Getting into that mid range and trusting... I'm assuming +1 to wound to get those Stalkers through is a lot of work. I love the Contemptors. I use one frequently in some of my lists...I only own one.

 

It does look like in the right match up you are probably smashing through those heavy infantry lists without breaking much of a sweat!

This list is untested, as I've not been able to get a game in since the rules dropped due to the whole covid matter, but I have faith that it will perform halfway decently against an all mech list. As for that tau list matter, Tau is just going to be Tau.

I would replace that inceptor with an aggressor in the unit of intercessors. Give them autobolters. They can deep strike and waste almost anything with bolt storm and vengeance rounds during tac doctrine...the next turn either your opponent crushes them or you get to pop bolt storm again but now you get to shoot twice...auto hitting -3 ap shots

In that, you are wrong. Vengence round auto bolt rifles using boltstorm doesn't work coming out the teleportarium. Certainly it optimizes a little better than normal bolt rifles for the AP and rounds with the addition of tactical doctrine, but it loses outright to Rapid Fire with a Watch Master nearby. (9 dudes using rapid fire with full re-rolls equates to 31 hits vs 27 hits of 9 dudes with auto bolt rifles auto hitting.) Furthermore, once the unit is tagged in melee, what are you going to do then? Sit there with thumb up ass and lose all the firepower that the unit is providing.

First off. Why do you always seem so confrontational and condescending. Go outside and catch some sun or exercise.

 

Second I don't understand your math unless you're not using SIA. Even with a watch master...I don't see those numbers of hits. Break it down or something.

 

3rd...you're basing your version on having to use a watch master. This unit doesn't need one

 

4th....the fact its auto hitting makes it extra nasty vs bikers, camo units, guys in cover, ignores buffs that nerf BS or put - modifiers...

 

5th...you assume that taking my advice or using a unit for this role would not be screened or can't be yanked out by the watch Master or that the sgt and aggressor dont have power fists? Which BTW don't have thumbs that get stuck up asses very well

[Qui-Gon]

If you are reading my commentary as confrontational, I am not being confrontational.

If you are reading my commentary as condescending, I am not being condescending either.

If you are finding my input as either, then that is a you issue.

 

Since you seem to need the math, here it is.

Rapid Fire: 9 dudes = 36 shots at up to 12/15/18" (Vengence, Hellfire, Kraken)

With Watch Master re-rolls

To hit @ 3+: 24 hits

Failed hits: 12 hits

Re-rolled hits: 8 hits.

Total hits: 32 hits. 

 

Bolt Storm: 9 dudes = 27 shots. Autohitting @ half range.

Vengence Half range is 9" because it makes the profile 18" maximum range.

Not possible out of deep strike because must be more than 9".

Therefore, half range is 12/15" similar to normal bolt rifles. (Hellfire/Kraken)

With watch Master re-rolls for vengeance rounds for not auto hitting:

To hit @ 3+: 18 hits

Failed hits: 9

Re-rolled hits: 6

Total to hit: 24

 

Based on this math, we can see that sure, you could Bolt storm and ideally get 27 hits with auto hits, but you can never get the full 27 hits out of deep strike with Vengeance rounds to start. Even still, you only get 3 more net hits from Rapid Fire. If you are not Boltstorming, you need a Watch Master to equal the same amount of Rapid Fire bolt rifles. If you're using a Watch Master for the former, if we account for his use in the later, you find that the normal bolt rifles far excel above the auto bolt rifles. (And if you are needing to be asbolutely precise, for 1 pt cheaper per dude). Furthermore, they don't always need to fire at AP -3, but they can do so and far better than auto bolt rifles out of the drop. AP -2 with hellfire rounds will tear through anything not carrying a 4++ or better. Autos will never attain AP -2 hellfires.

 

The only situation that Bolt Storm would excel over Rapid Fire is when you are including modifiers to hit. When we account for them for the bolt rifles:

 

To hit @ 4+: 18 hits

Failed 1/2s: 12 hits

Re-rolled 1/2s : 8 hits.

Total hits: 26 hits. 

Result: Bolt Storm would succeed with 1 extra defaulted hits on the math. Not worth it.

 

To hit @ 5+: 12 hits

Failed 1/2s: 12 hits

Re-rolled 1/2s : 8 hits.

Total hits: 20 hits. 

Result: Bolt Storm would succeed with 7 extra defaulted hits on the math. Bolt Storms pull ahead here when there is a -2 to hit or worse. In all other cases, the math is equal for the same number of bolt rifles using Rapid Fire.

 

I find Bolt storm to be a trap stratagem. It reads awesome, until you break it down to where it is actually exceeding more often than not in such a obvious fashion. 

 

Concerning your other commentary on possibly being saved by a Watch Master charging in, or being screened, or the 4 power fist attacks from the aggressor and/or sergeant is going to actually win the combat (ie wipe out the opponent so you can shoot without issue) or saving your ONE use Beacon Angelis (which we are all talking of using it to position a chaplain or pulling something else into position) for this one specific instance of your unit getting caught in melee, I find flawed. All it takes is ONE turn for the unit to not be shooting for you to suffer. So, you must either beacon the unit out of combat, or pray you won the initial round. Because if you didn't, you just lost the output of the unit. In my experience for a squad who has no melee potential like just 9 intercessors, an Inceptor is far more powerful than the Aggressor, because sure, the aggressor could kill 4 dudes in melee, but then the squad is screwed. Or you can fall back with whoever is left, and potentially kill far more than 4 dudes with the combined shooting of the squad. It has always been more beneficial for me to fall back than to wish I had 4 more power fists. Having your character Heroic Intervene is a novelty, its not a guarantee. Every opponent I've faced makes sure to avoid allowing him to do so. As for screens, what cheap chaff screen can you afford in Deathwatch if you're also wanting Combat Doctrines? Either Intercessors or Veterans who are as expensive as everything else. That's not a screen in my view.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Qui-Gon

[Mobius0288]

Here's one of my lists for comparison. I need speed but have the ability to wait a turn before pushing with the drop pod/beacon movement. Over the last month I've played mostly GSC and thousand sons, winning all matches. The difficult part is timing of strikes and its punishing if I miss my mark. I also try to do more with less... meaning I dont feel like I need to have a maxed squad to spend 2 or 3 CPs on a unit for it to be worthwhile. If I had bolt rifles deepstriking on turn 2, ya darn right im gonna blow bolt storm on a 5 man unit of intercessors if the target in front of me needs to die. I also don't spend crap tons of CP every turn. Oh, and I use the assassin to kinda help farm CPs rather than a lord of knowledge trait.

 

Needs to be reworked a little for the chaplain litanies and my new termite drill.

 

--Dual Battalion 2k--

 

*Operative Requisition Sanctioned (Vindicare)

 

Watchmaster (beacon, castellan of the vault)

 

Chaplain Dread (Twin lascannon)

 

Inquisitor (Malleus, 2 powers/2 deny)

 

Intercessor (auto x5 + 1 aggressor)

 

Vet

-Vets x3: SS/SB

-Vets x2: Frag Cannon

-Termie x2: PS/SB

- VV: pistol/chainsword

 

Vet

-Sgt: Combi-melta/Xenophase

-Vet x4: SB/SS

-Vet x2: Combi-plasma

 

Bikers x3: SB, chainswords

 

Bikers x3: SB, chainswords

 

Contemptor Mortis (Twin-las)

 

Drop Pod

 

 

Watch Captain (Smash Captain)

 

Watch Captain (MC bolter, lightning claw)

 

Intercessor (Stalker x5)

 

Intercessor (Stalker x5)

 

Vets

-Vets x3: Stalker bolters

-Vets x2: Missile Launcher

 

Vets

-Vets x5: Stalker bolters

 

-----------------

 

A good mix of unit types, speed, long range anti-tank and anti-infantry. A few anti-tank support weapons scattered about. Bikers can double as a screen or objective cappers (or charge if in range). Plenty of CP for different strat options (hellfire, doctrines, clavis, flakk, etc). Remains mono deathwatch.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Mobius0288

[Debauchery101]

How do you get 4 shots per Intercessor with SIA who just deep struck? Edited April 28, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Debauchery101]

Moving Marine with Bolt Rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range

With or without SIA

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range or 2 shots@ max range WITHOUT SIA and using bolter discipline

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range or 1 shot at max range with SIA

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle and Has Aggressor in killteam= 4 shots@ 1/2 range and 4 shots at max Without SIA and bolter discipline

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle and has aggressor in killteam= 4 shots at 1/2 range and 2 shots @ max with SIA

 

Moving Marine with Auto Bolt rifle WITH OR WITHOUT SIA= 3 shots any range

 

Stationary Marine with Auto Bolt Rifle WITH OR WITHOUT SIA and Aggressor in killteam = 6 shots any range..

Edited April 28, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Qui-Gon]

How do you get 4 shots per Intercessor with SIA who just deep struck?

 

Moving Marine with Bolt Rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range

With or without SIA

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range or 2 shots@ max range WITHOUT SIA and using bolter discipline

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range or 1 shot at max range with SIA

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle and Has Aggressor in killteam= 4 shots@ 1/2 range and 4 shots at max Without SIA and bolter discipline

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle and has aggressor in killteam= 4 shots at 1/2 range and 2 shots @ max with SIA

 

Moving Marine with Auto Bolt rifle WITH OR WITHOUT SIA= 3 shots any range

 

Stationary Marine with Auto Bolt Rifle WITH OR WITHOUT SIA and Aggressor in killteam = 6 shots any range..

 

 

The "Rapid Fire" stratagem? If you're spending 2 CP for boltstorm, 2 CP for Rapid fire is equally valid.

 

Also, how are you getting 6 shots for a stationary marine with an auto bolt rifle? For that matter, how are you getting double shots each time an Aggressor is in the unit?

 

The ability for an Aggressor to double shoot does not extend to other models in the unit. Therefore, an Auto bolt rifle armed intercessor will only ever get 3 shots, not 6 as you've claimed above. Similarly, bolt rifles will only ever get 2 shots without the Rapid Fire stratagem.

 

If you have been claiming until now that "put a single aggressor in the squad, and the ability to double shoot extends to other models in the unit" you've been cheating.

 

 

@ Mobius: 

Taking the Assassin will deny Combat Doctrines. Is it worth it in your opinion to keep it? 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Qui-Gon

[Debauchery101]

 

 

How do you get 4 shots per Intercessor with SIA who just deep struck?

Moving Marine with Bolt Rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range

With or without SIA

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range or 2 shots@ max range WITHOUT SIA and using bolter discipline

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range or 1 shot at max range with SIA

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle and Has Aggressor in killteam= 4 shots@ 1/2 range and 4 shots at max Without SIA and bolter discipline

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle and has aggressor in killteam= 4 shots at 1/2 range and 2 shots @ max with SIA

 

Moving Marine with Auto Bolt rifle WITH OR WITHOUT SIA= 3 shots any range

 

Stationary Marine with Auto Bolt Rifle WITH OR WITHOUT SIA and Aggressor in killteam = 6 shots any range..

The "Rapid Fire" stratagem? If you're spending 2 CP for boltstorm, 2 CP for Rapid fire is equally valid.

 

Also, how are you getting 6 shots for a stationary marine with an auto bolt rifle? For that matter, how are you getting double shots each time an Aggressor is in the unit?

 

The ability for an Aggressor to double shoot does not extend to other models in the unit. Therefore, an Auto bolt rifle armed intercessor will only ever get 3 shots, not 6 as you've claimed above. Similarly, bolt rifles will only ever get 2 shots without the Rapid Fire stratagem.

 

If you have been claiming until now that "put a single aggressor in the squad, and the ability to double shoot extends to other models in the unit" you've been cheating.

 

 

@ Mobius:

Taking the Assassin will deny Combat Doctrines. Is it worth it in your opinion to keep it?

Did they FAQ the mixed unit abilities for Primaris Marines? I haven't played any ITC matches since last july with Deathwatch. Just recently with the word of new rules I've been playing with friends at home. So I wouldn't be cheating i may just not be updated

 

I now understand that you were including the Stratagem Rapid Fire. I had my mind focused on the weapon types of rapid fire and assault

 

If you honestly don't see how you're confrontational and condescending man. You just said I'm cheating after I've been just asking to break what you mean down.

 

I honestly do not mind being wrong just like you don't mind being holier than thou. Its OK man I know you just want to be right and you'll never let a chance go to make sure everyone knows it

 

*mid way writing this i looked for the FAQ and yes I now see where it says its just for the aggressors. That makes a difference for shooting but honestly not much for me because I don't usually keep kill teams Stationary. I try to stay outta charge range or charge. Which when kiting its great to advance and still get 27 shots.

 

Its just a different way of playing and now knowing the faq I still think the aggressor is superior because it gets 3 base atks with powerfists

Edited April 28, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Qui-Gon]

 

 

How do you get 4 shots per Intercessor with SIA who just deep struck?

Moving Marine with Bolt Rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range

With or without SIA

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range or 2 shots@ max range WITHOUT SIA and using bolter discipline

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt rifle= 2 shots@ 1/2 range or 1 shot at max range with SIA

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle and Has Aggressor in killteam= 4 shots@ 1/2 range and 4 shots at max Without SIA and bolter discipline

 

Stationary Marine with Bolt Rifle and has aggressor in killteam= 4 shots at 1/2 range and 2 shots @ max with SIA

 

Moving Marine with Auto Bolt rifle WITH OR WITHOUT SIA= 3 shots any range

 

Stationary Marine with Auto Bolt Rifle WITH OR WITHOUT SIA and Aggressor in killteam = 6 shots any range..

 

The "Rapid Fire" stratagem? If you're spending 2 CP for boltstorm, 2 CP for Rapid fire is equally valid.

 

Also, how are you getting 6 shots for a stationary marine with an auto bolt rifle? For that matter, how are you getting double shots each time an Aggressor is in the unit?

 

The ability for an Aggressor to double shoot does not extend to other models in the unit. Therefore, an Auto bolt rifle armed intercessor will only ever get 3 shots, not 6 as you've claimed above. Similarly, bolt rifles will only ever get 2 shots without the Rapid Fire stratagem.

 

If you have been claiming until now that "put a single aggressor in the squad, and the ability to double shoot extends to other models in the unit" you've been cheating.

 

 

@ Mobius:

Taking the Assassin will deny Combat Doctrines. Is it worth it in your opinion to keep it?

Did they FAQ the mixed unit abilities for Primaris Marines? I haven't played any ITC matches since last july with Deathwatch. Just recently with the word of new rules I've been playing with friends at home. So I wouldn't be cheating i may just not be updated

 

 

To quote from the Codex Deathwatch (2018) page 73, Intercessor Datasheet, Firestorm Ability:

"Aggressors in this unit can fire twice if they remained stationary during their turn (including when firing Overwatch)."

 

Under the original wording, only Aggressors could ever double shoot.

 

The rule was errata'd in 2019 following the release of the 8th edition Space Marine Codex v.2 to read:

‘When this unit fires Overwatch or is chosen to shoot with, Aggressor models in this unit can shoot twice if this unit did not move this turn.’

 

An unnecessary clarification, but it was made likely to align with other rules of a similar wording. Functionally, it did not change.

 

In summary, no, adding a single aggressor has never allowed the unit to double shoot, only Aggressor models have ever been able to double shoot.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Qui-Gon

[Debauchery101]

There was entries that were copy/pasted that were from aggressor squad rules. Thats where I read them and understood. But at that time I switched to salamanders so I did not keep up with DW. Anyways I'm done interacting with you on this. I learned 2 new things. I'm happy

[Mobius0288]

 

@ Mobius: 

Taking the Assassin will deny Combat Doctrines. Is it worth it in your opinion to keep it? 

 

In the case of losing doctrines to take an Assassin, I would still say its worth losing the extra AP. Especially for the Vindicare. If they leave characters out, you'll have tons of opportunity to kill auras. If they decide to hide them because of the assassin, you can use that to push some board control. His one weakness is trying to pick off non-infantry characters (bikers, etc.). BUT, now you have the target sighted strat at your disposal if you bring stalker intercessors.

 

I think I originally misinterpreted losing combat doctrines vs losing chapter tactics.. which is not an issue for our faction. No, I would not need the extra AP to still kill things at the same effectiveness. Sure there may be some math-hammering but I don't notice the difference overall. Might be a little different if I favored deep striking intercessors and some twin assault cannons on the blackstar as a main source of damage.

[Qui-Gon]

 

 

@ Mobius: 

Taking the Assassin will deny Combat Doctrines. Is it worth it in your opinion to keep it? 

 

In the case of losing doctrines to take an Assassin, I would still say its worth losing the extra AP. Especially for the Vindicare. If they leave characters out, you'll have tons of opportunity to kill auras. If they decide to hide them because of the assassin, you can use that to push some board control. His one weakness is trying to pick off non-infantry characters (bikers, etc.). BUT, now you have the target sighted strat at your disposal if you bring stalker intercessors.

 

I think I originally misinterpreted losing combat doctrines vs losing chapter tactics.. which is not an issue for our faction. No, I would not need the extra AP to still kill things at the same effectiveness. Sure there may be some math-hammering but I don't notice the difference overall. Might be a little different if I favored deep striking intercessors and some twin assault cannons on the blackstar as a main source of damage.

 

 

In my view, the assassin's pt increase doesn't justify his inclusion, even with the added benefit of the getting 1 or 2 CP back a turn. I've playtested him at length and sure, he was useful, and while he did get his pts and CP back and supplied anti character, it is too easy to hide character's nowadays so its more difficult. 

[Prot]

Guys, please... for the last time stop going after each other. Stop the condescension and if you think someone is acting inappropriately, use the Report button, don't push each other's buttons here because it's not going to end well.

 

 

I made this thread as a fun exercise in rebuilding my Deathwatch. I'm looking for some advice, and yes some of it is going to have interpretation or rules discrepancy... it's an ever changing complex game. We don't need to hang each over it, or react so extreme when we are called on it.

 

In my meta, I face Tau a lot. So maybe the pure Primaris idea isn't for me. I see value in it. There's other great advice as well.

 

I love that Mobius faces, and states Thousand Sons are something he's able to handle. (I would think that a tall order to be fair. I know my own Thousand Sons tend to gobble up elite marine armies just by the nature of -2 AP and Mortal Wounds!)

 

One thing though Mobius.... are you sure you want to forgo those Doctrines? I just keep thinking of all the value add going on with the Stormbolters alone could be a huge payoff.  I foresee staying in Tactical for most of the games whenever possible.

 

I also think a Smash type Captain might be a bigger thing now for my Deathwatch. The truth is with my White Scars I have taken these hammer characters and thrown them against some ugly stuff, then playing Transhuman Physiology and the extra mileage we can get out of those types of units now is pretty enticing!

 

I don't want to just duplicate my White Scars though, because I think they will always do those things a bit better.  

 

I'm trying to break the army down into 'roles'. Again, I have to be able to tear Tau apart to have any footing in a local event. I'm having trouble figuring that out without Impulsors (using Primaris). And the Eldar / Craftworlds (even Flyer Spam still) is probably a big issue.  I think both those armies are very good at dissecting Primaris.

 

It does seem no one likes Hellblasters anymore?  I guess I'm still stuck on being competitive against those armies that feature a lot of medium armour. My friend plays a very transport heavy GSC list. In fact it's gained popularity now on the ITC circuit. Basically if you see it, it's basically 9 of those vehicles with lascannons. Other guys that worry me are AdMech lists with 3 Skorpius' and DakkaBots. Stuff like that... even Knights.

 

Do you guys think those kinds of match ups are going to force us to ally? Force us to take in a Knight house or something?               

[Qui-Gon]

I think the matter of hellblasters falling out of favor is due in part to the effects transhuman has on trying to attack other marine infantry, AP -5 in tactical is way overkill for such an expensive model in my view, and most folks have learned to work around getting plasma nuked. I've even managed to do well against a dreadnought heavy death guard list so its not as though I can't manage in a tank heavy environment.

 

I don't do much ITC play so much of my commentary should be considered in that.

[Prot]

So let's say for the sake of example you are facing  Chaos Deathguard list. Let's say it's tournament level, not necessarily ITC, but something in the vein of a 'Don Hooson' list:

 

3 Deredeo's

3 Contemptors

 

Miscellaneous blocking with chaff like poxwalkers, etc. Some strong Psychic Support and if he's using "the Purge" rules, it makes it pretty certain those Dreads are going to hit hard.

 

What is your angle of attack on all that T7 armour?

 

On a side note, I just started working on a squad of Aggressors to help out my ground attack since I decided to drop the Corvus and the Repulsor. 

 

I also have 10 Intercessors to build. I'm not sure if I should go from 5 Stalkers, to 10? Or 5 Autobolters to 10? What do you guys think mixes best with Aggressors? (Also my squads typically have one Inceptor for the escape mechanism.)

[Qui-Gon]

Let's assume those dreadnoughts are armed with butcher cannons so they're really effing annoying.

Turn 1 I would drop in the pods with veterans to chaff clear, and rush my aggressor units up field due to their effective range being 18".

The stalker unit would use a doctrine stratagem to wound the dreads on 4s, possibly hitting on 2s if I choose to go Focus litany. The odds put that unit at being able to 50/50 kill a contemptor when they fire.

Then the las contemptors would try to kill at least two more dreads, supported by a possible tempest shell from a captain.

 

The toughness of the aggressors will help mitigate the worst of the butcher cannons, and wound eating shenanegains will enable the unit to only lose 2 models per 3 wounds.

 

Turn 2, the bolt rifle intercessors drop and then we again doctrine strat and rapid fire them for a ton of AP -2/3 shots. That unit will average wipe out even a Deredeo, and since he's unlikely to have killed the two dreadnoughts, they and the rest of the list could mulch the rest of the dreads.

 

I predict if I go first against the list, I could kill half the dreads T1, and the rest by T2, T3 at latest.

 

It may seem like I'm simply "brute forcing" the issue, but so far its worked.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Qui-Gon

[GrinNfool]

Been vaguely following this thread as I mess with my own lists... been working on a DW brigade list, I know crazy.... but I think it might have some hope, still tweaking but I think it has some promise.  Its looking a lot closer to traditional marine lists, than our old DW lists though, but as I have said in other threads, I think its very possible that, assuming you are forgoing allies, it could be the best way to go.  I still think running them as allies to non marines ignoring the doctrines and just getting the strategems will be the best way to go as it was before, but this might at least be close.