Tactics venting session (or rant?)

[Ultramarine vet]

Okay my fellow B&C community, I have a tactics session I want to talk about, and I'm here talking about this to receive clarity, hopefully. I'm at a state in 40k tabletop where I don't know what to do. So, I usually play my dad, and my brother. We have a big enough table thats pretty much the size required to play in our own home, so that's usually what we do.

 

My space marine army is good in my opinion, but it doesn't seem to be optimal to everyone else very much. I have no primaris, and none of their tricks and stratagems and ridiculous shoot things off the board units. I have entirely firstborn, and I have played the entirety of this edition with them. I lost 6 times in a row to Necrons before I finally had a victory. Against my dad's tyranids, and now my brothers chaos space marines, I make fairly quick work of them.

 

Now, I just "finished" a battle with my brother. He resigned with almost 2 full rounds completed. The problem is that me and my dad were of the opinion that he still had a chance.

 

20 assault marines and 20 berserkers clashed in the middle of the field, all of them were slaughtered by each other real quick. Mine led by my chapter master and his led by Khârn. It was a fun game. But my brother evidently didn't know that you can't assault a stormraven unless you can fly. He fielded 2 sorcerers, Abaddon, and a land raider with 2 twin linked lascannons. He had a forgefiend and a bunch of marines as troops. He also had a flying daemon prince. Well, he sped his land raider ahead, left Abaddon and his 12 terminators in the back as a rearguard defense. The Stormraven was able to put out it's maximum firepower 2 shooting phases in a row, and also dropped an ironclad dreadnought and 10 sternguards right on top of him in the middle of the field, to clean up everything he had there, which wasn't much after said slaughterhouse that I mentioned earlier.

 

I was called out for bringing a cheese list, which I'm not that upset about. I do try to bring fun lists and competitive ones. I brought massed assault marines and a stormraven and a vindicator, all of which were very new to me.

 

My problem, is that he could have easily destroyed my Stormraven right at the beginning. He could have had Abaddon next to his land raider for the re-rolls, have the sorcerer cast prescience on the land raider, and then you will hit a stormraven on 3s, re-rolling all to hits. My Stormraven was practically at his mercy, but he moved his land raider ahead of Abaddon and left him at the back, and targeted my 3 devastator centurions every time instead. Even when he resigned, I still had a centurion standing. It's worth noting I had an apothecary to heal the centurions. So in my mind, an opportunity was definitely missed and I'm the one being blamed for a cheese list.

 

I'm sorry to rant and sound like I'm being a victim or something, but I guess I'm looking for honest clarity. I'm starting to feel like I have to take a list that I know won't work to appease everyone. Obviously, I wanna start heading to the store a lot more often for pick up games of course and expand, but you know.

 

Does anyone have some good points for me as to what I should do? To be perfectly honest, I'm at a complete and total loss on how to balance things out.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Ultramarine vet

[Panzer]

The fact that you brought Assault Marines at all already speaks against you bringing a cheese list. I can't think of any other unit as subpar as that one for Marines (unless you meant Vanguard Veterans). :sweat:

 

About the Stormraven ... eh that's on him. A Stormraven still is only T7 and quickly loses its edge once you start damaging it. With re-rolls and a base BS3+ it shouldn't be a problem hitting it at all with some Lascannons, which then could also wound it on a 2+ with Veterans of the Long War. Not to mention that if he kills the rest of the army you are tabled anyway since you got no boots on the ground (unless you play a mission that just goes on).

 

That being said, leaving Abaddon behind is a huge waste of points anyway. If he just wants some buff aura for his backfield he should just take any generic Lord. Abaddon pays a LOT for his melee damage output.

 

 

Other than that, it's difficult to give any kind of advice or actively help you. We don't know anything about the terrain, the complete armylists, the mission, how the game went etc. Perhaps it was just the heat of the moment that made him lose focus. Perhaps he simply isn't as good a player. Nothing you can do about those two things.

 

What you could try is swapping armies. Play the same mission on the same table with the same lists, just that you take his army and he takes your army.

[WarriorFish]

This isn't a tactics question exactly, it may be better to move this to Amicus. However given the answer seems pretty clear to me, the Chaos section is probably better for more specific advice for your brother?

 

That is to say that the solutions rests with your brother, his list does sound a bit lopsided and he made several tactical errors. It's fine so long as you use them as lessons to learn, nobody starts out with Creed levels of tactical genius :P I'm sure some element of lockdown or a variety of the sort doesn't help with perception but Abaddon and the Bringers of Despair frolicking in the backline is a terrible waste of potential (and points!)

 

Berserkers should have had no problem cutting the Assault Marines down even with a Chapter Master. So overall it sounds like he needs a better grasp of his codex at the least. I recommend you talk to him about the game and how he can make better use of his forces, maybe go through the codex and reference the rules to watch out for :)

 

After this, I'd suggest playing another game with his revised list (keep yours the same) and talk the game through. Remind him of things if you see him making a mistake or perhaps forgetting something like he can't assault a Flyer without the Fly keyword. It's in your interests to make him a better player too, as then you can have better games and ideally at some point you realise you have stagnated and need to up your game to stop him beating you

[Ultramarine vet]

The fact that you brought Assault Marines at all already speaks against you bringing a cheese list. I can't think of any other unit as subpar as that one for Marines (unless you meant Vanguard Veterans). :sweat:

 

About the Stormraven ... eh that's on him. A Stormraven still is only T7 and quickly loses its edge once you start damaging it. With re-rolls and a base BS3+ it shouldn't be a problem hitting it at all with some Lascannons, which then could also wound it on a 2+ with Veterans of the Long War. Not to mention that if he kills the rest of the army you are tabled anyway since you got no boots on the ground (unless you play a mission that just goes on).

 

That being said, leaving Abaddon behind is a huge waste of points anyway. If he just wants some buff aura for his backfield he should just take any generic Lord. Abaddon pays a LOT for his melee damage output.

 

 

Other than that, it's difficult to give any kind of advice or actively help you. We don't know anything about the terrain, the complete armylists, the mission, how the game went etc. Perhaps it was just the heat of the moment that made him lose focus. Perhaps he simply isn't as good a player. Nothing you can do about those two things.

 

What you could try is swapping armies. Play the same mission on the same table with the same lists, just that you take his army and he takes your army.

That is true. They were indeed 20 assault marines. And actually, I did bring a squad of 5 vanguard veterans as well. 3 of them with thunder hammers and stormshields, and 2 with lighting claw pairs. My list went as follows...

 

Brigade detachment

 

HQ *

 

Captain with jump pack - lightning claws

 

Lieutenant with jump pack - power axe, bolt pistol

 

Chaplain - crozius arcanum, bolt pistol

 

Troops *

 

Tactical squad x10 - Power axe, melta gun, lascannons

 

Tactical squad x10 - Chainsword, Plasma pistol, plasmagun, plasma cannon

 

Scout squad x5 - Chainsword, heavy bolter, shotgun, x2 bolter

 

Scout squad x5 - Heavy bolter, x4 bolter

 

Scout squad x5 - Combi-plasma, powersword, heavy bolter, shotgun, x2 bolter

 

Scout squad x5 - Stormbolter, powersword, bolter, x3 shotgun

 

Elites *

 

Ironclad dreadnought - dreadnought combat weapon, dreadnought chainfist, x2 heavy flamer

 

Terminator squad x5 - x4 Stormbolter, x3 powerfist, chainfist, powersword, assault cannon

 

Vanguard veteran squad x5 - x3 thunder hammer, x3 stormshields, x2 lightning claws

 

Fast Attack *

 

Assault squad - Thunder hammer, combat shield, x3 plasma pistol, eviscerator

 

Assault squad - Power fist, x2 plasma pistol, flamer, eviscerator

 

Land speeder - Heavy bolter, assault cannon

 

Heavy Support *

 

Whirlwind - Castellan launcher

 

Vindicator - Demolisher cannon

 

Devastator centurion squad x3 - x3 grav-cannons, x3 hurricane bolter

 

Vanguard detachment

 

HQ *

 

Captain - Chainsword, plasma pistol

 

Librarian - Force axe, plasma pistol

 

Elites *

 

Apothecary - Bolt pistol, chainsword

 

Company ancient - Powersword

 

Sternguard veteran squad x5 - x3 special issue boltgun, Combi-plasma, heavy flamer

 

Sternguard veteran squad x5 - x3 special issue boltgun, x2 combi-melta, powersword

 

Flyers *

 

Stormraven gunship - Twin assault cannon, x2 stormstrike missile, typhoon missile launcher, x2 hurricane bolter

 

Brigade + vanguard = 16 CP

 

Chapter Master - 2 CP (jump pack captain)

 

Hero of the chapter - 1 CP (Other captain in backfield)

 

Relics - Teeth of Terra, Standard Ascendant - 1 CP

 

Total CP costs leaves me with 12 to start the game. The before game stratagems and upgrades on the scouts are both a little odd for me, but I wanted to play around with some things.

 

The strategy on my part was to push the chapter master up the field with 20 assault, 5 vanguard veterans, the land speeder, and the vindicator. The plan was to move the vindicator and activate Big Guns Never Tire to hit on 3s with re-rolls to hit next to the chapter master and re-roll 1s to wound from the lieutenant.

 

I also had Long-range marksmen to help my shooting units, and I had Whirlwind of Rage to help my melee units. My chapter master and his assault marines did chew through the berserkers and Counter-offensive was used on my brother's part to take out one of my assault squads entirely. Safe to say it was a Haven of bloodshed, worthy of Khorne's pleasure. Another note, Khârn did kill my chapter master. So my plans did take a huge hit.

 

My captain, the 2 tactical squads, and the whirlwind were in my backfield to hold objectives and protect my flank. Which was apparently necessary since berserkers reached and I was very thankful to have the Teeth of Terra there to counter them.

 

He gave up the battle when my Stormraven dropped the ironclad right next to his land raider, and it was safe to say at that point, it was good as dead.

 

To your point, it's very true that he could have whethered the Stormraven and just dealt with everything else since it most definitely cannot hold objectives. That was my defense for him to continue.

[Ultramarine vet]

This isn't a tactics question exactly, it may be better to move this to Amicus. However given the answer seems pretty clear to me, the Chaos section is probably better for more specific advice for your brother?

 

That is to say that the solutions rests with your brother, his list does sound a bit lopsided and he made several tactical errors. It's fine so long as you use them as lessons to learn, nobody starts out with Creed levels of tactical genius :P I'm sure some element of lockdown or a variety of the sort doesn't help with perception but Abaddon and the Bringers of Despair frolicking in the backline is a terrible waste of potential (and points!) :wacko:

 

Berserkers should have had no problem cutting the Assault Marines down even with a Chapter Master. So overall it sounds like he needs a better grasp of his codex at the least. I recommend you talk to him about the game and how he can make better use of his forces, maybe go through the codex and reference the rules to watch out for :)

 

After this, I'd suggest playing another game with his revised list (keep yours the same) and talk the game through. Remind him of things if you see him making a mistake or perhaps forgetting something like he can't assault a Flyer without the Fly keyword. It's in your interests to make him a better player too, as then you can have better games and ideally at some point you realise you have stagnated and need to up your game to stop him beating you ;)

 

Very true! I was somewhat not sure where to put this post, so thank you. Lol. We did talk, and he did agree with me that mistakes were made and the next game will go better. My point to him was we both learned things. Like, it's not a fun time fighting berserkers on my part. Though I don't even regret it, because it was such a glorious slaughter on both sides. (Why do I sound like a Khorne follower)

[WarriorFish]

It sounds like he's already figured out what went wrong and is on the right path, let me know if you want the topic moved :tu: A game where you learn is a better one for it, and you have more to learn from defeat than victory so it's an opportunity. Victory tastes all the sweeter when you work for it :P

[Leonaides]

I'd also suggest maybe some smaller games. If he's still learning tactics, having a big game increases your advantage as you have the ability to work your synergies better, as well as the toys to do so while he is hampered by too complex a situation and not knowing how to work his synergies. Gives you a double-bubble advantage over him. Smaller games are usually better to learn from, and it forces you to improvise more - you learn more about what your units are capable of on their own/stripped of all the re-rolls/bonuses while he can just focus on learning the basic tactics/rules (which it sounds like he still needs to work on anyway). Which flips the game a bit more on its head - you have to work harder to win without your preferred synergies while he has a less-complex game and less rules interactions to understand while learning the basics. In the end, you learn how to gutter-fight with yoru units while he can learn the basics more easily and feel a bit more enthusiastic/like he has more of a chance against you.