Dorn Soup: How worth it is our super-doctrine?

[Crovan]

Brothers,

 

Thank you for the replies to my last post about some of the dusty units I have sitting around.  I have a much better idea of what is viable going forward for BTs.

 

Now, I have a new question:  I have a couple sets of Vanguard Marines, some filthy witches, and various other things I've acquired over the years that just don't feel, Templar-y to me. As such, I think I'm going to start a second marine army.  After a couple of polls on reddit and Facebook with my shortlist options (Emperor's Spears, Crimson Fists, and Celestial Lions), the Celestial Lions won out big time.  The idea of a Blood and Fire army seems really cool to me.

 

Any of the three options would fit with the lore, but my real question is how good is Knights of Sigismund?  My Crusade's head-canon would allow me to take some units of another chapter (especially one like the Lions with just a handful of brothers) and just use the BT rules for them, but I got to thinking about the benefits of things like the IF/CF rules would have for units like Infiltrators, Eliminators, and Inceptors.  Is it worth getting the exploding bolter shots and codex bonuses in exchange for Knights of Sigismund?  I feel like the hammer units I'll be using for combat will be things like Vanguards and Smash Marshals and Terminators, so they don't need much help to wound, anyway, but when I do things like chainsword veterans or Crusaders, it could help a fair bit.

[MarshalMittermeier]

this is a very valid question.

 

i think knights of sigismund is not very good. it sure improves low strength cc, so power swords gain a lot (i won't comment on improving chainswords... dont concisder them that important), but with all the crusade relics, that is less important.

 

right now, what makes black templars is Stratagems (particularly Emperor's Will), relics (aurillian shroud, crusader's helm), warlord traits ( Epitome of Piety, Frontline Commander) and Litany of Divine Protection. some of them require "black templar" units.

 

so on one hand, knights of sigismund isn't that good, on the other, black templars may lose a lot more than the super doctrine in soups. for example, a 10-man inceptor squad with assault bolters would be able to advance 1d6+1 (frontline commander), shoot 30 times (assault weapons), and possibly benefit from 4++ invuln from the shroud. and 5+ against mortal wounds.*

i'd like to hear others' thoughts.

 

* (what i described is not overbuffing; frontline commander is an aura, it will be there, same with aurillian shroud for the 4++ invuln, it is very possible that the unit is affected when it pops off. 5+ vs mortal wounds is always active.  the things I describe need, like, 2 BT HQ choices, the most common ones. heck, IF we really wanted to buff, we could give them assault doctrine on turn 1 with the relic, for -1 AP, and remember the captain for the rerolls too... and 5+++ feel no pain from litany. but i assumed we won't buff them)

Edited April 29, 2020 by MarshalMittermeier

[Medjugorje]

I think your idea is way stronger then building a mono-BT list. Especially the Stratagems, Relics and Litanies still work and if you play other Space Marines then you dont loose your doctrines. 

 

the same time i am very disappointed how weak "Knights of sigismund" is in terms of power it is an invitation for soup-players which can play a lot more Stratagems or relics in the same time.

[Hymnblade]

I have never yet had Knights of Sigismund make any real impact on a game. It comes into play only a handful of times per game at best, and when it does, it has only a small numerical effect.

 

Maybe it would matter more against a list with lots of Monsters or something, where auto-wounds would actually matter, but that's pretty niche.

[MarshalMittermeier]

i think nobody will debate against this. i just cannot see how knights of sigismund is actualy that useful. with Templars, it is about all the doctrines/litanies etc.

 

so if the "Templar toys" that you want to use specify that they only work on Templar units, don't use soup.

if they do, use soup. simple. all about the stratagems, litanies and relics and the keywords they use.

[Medjugorje]

there is just one situation when our super doctrine is having a bigger effect.

 

You will charge with an unit that has WS 2+ with the reroll all hit ability and the enemy has a higher toughness then your strength. This time you could reroll every throw that is not a 6. But still its not that gamebreaker rule.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

You would lose some, but not all, of the benefit of the Crusader's Helm. But I agree, the offensive output of standard IF successors in Devastator and Tactical doctrines is probably much more valuable in the current meta than a late game 'surge'.