BA CP Use and Anecdotes Late 8th Ed

[Captain Caine 24th]

As a practical matter, how do you typically spend CPs? I'm over budget. 

 

I'm getting my Blood Angels dusted off. I've been playing mostly AM/Imperial Guard. I'm debating whether to go full BA with 2x battalions and a supreme command, or still keep a guard detachment, probably a brigade. 

 

• BRB prepared Positions 2CP- B4 Game start of 1st battle round, before 1st turn
  • 1x Great in case I'm going 2nd. I can do a decent job of hiding BA behind cover with a lower model count, though I want to be as close as possible to charge. Imperial Fists are maybe not the best.
• BRB command re-rolls 1CP- B4 Game any single dice
  • ​2-5x I use these a lot. I'd like to be more intentional about building redundancy in the list design.
• Counter Offensive (choose to fight) 2CP- Fight Phase After enemy that charged fought
  • ​1-3x I don't really ever use this. But I don't play ultra assault oriented armies that often. 
• Insane Bravery (auto pass) 2CP- Morale Phase
  • ​1-3x I haven't needed this outside of AM/IG.
• Armory of Baal (2 relics) 1CP- B4 Battle Army
  • ​1x I like relics a lot with BA.
• Armory of Baal (3 relics) 3CP- B4 Battle Army
  • ​1x 3 I like multiple relics more. Also if I do ultimately add in AM/IG allies, I think it'll be necessary to spend CP.
• Forlorn Fury (extra move) 2CP- B4 Battle DEATH COMPANY, start of BR B4 1st Turn 1
  • 2x High Cost, but if this is at the start of the 1st battleround, it is after seize, I think. I like the tactical flexibility of (1) moving out of cover; (2) rapid advance/threat saturation; (3) buffing Death Company.
• Hero of Chapter (extra warlord T) 1CP- B4 Battle after warlord nominated 1
  • ​1x I really like the WT of fighting first (maybe it's unecessary), but I also see value in that extra damage WT.
• Death Visions (black rage) 1CP- B4 Battle Mustering Army, CHARACTER 1
  • ​1x I like the buff to the character special rules, and the unlocking of stratagems.
• Upon Wings (redeploy outside 9") 2CP- Move Phase JUMP PACK unit 2-3x
  • 2-3x​ I really like the flexibility here: (a) Alpha strike right out the gate; (b) hide in cover and beta strike; © get last minute objectives
• Descent of Angels (3D6 charge) 2CP- Charge Phase B4 charge roll, JUMP PACK unit, set up this turn
  • ​2-4x Seems mandatory. Failing a charge can lose the game.
• Red Rampage (+D3 attacks) 1 Fight Phase CHARACTER
  • ​1-4x I'll plan to use it on knights.
• Honor of the Chapter (fight again) 3CP- Fight Phase END OF PHASE, INFANTRY/BIKER
  • ​1-2x Being on the receiving end of this many times, I've seen units cross a lot of table, piling into another unit, saving the assault unit from enemy fire, and preventing an enemy unit from shooting 
• Only in Death (fight or shoot after death) 2CP- ANY/Multiple CHARACTER when Slain
  • 1-2x good if enemy interrupts and kills you to get payback or points out of your now dead smash captain
• Transhuman (1-3 to wound fails) 2CP- ANY/Multiple Unit chosen as target (not vehicle or servitor)
  • ​1-2x keep sanguinary guard alive, or necessary unit alive in desperate situation
• Refusal to die (5+ FNP) 2CP- ANY/Multiple DEATH CO unit chosen as target
  • ​1-4x use more death company
• Death on wind (DMG 1 = 2) 1 Fight Phase SANGUINARY GUARD
  • ​1-4x use more sanguinary guard, 
• Unbridled Ardour (6" heroic Int) 1CP- Charge Phase Unit
  • ​1-3x pair with death company, sanguinary guard. 
• Explosive judgment (re-roll W on angelus guns, no cover) 1CP- Shooting Phase SANGUINARY GUARD
  • ​1-3x clear screening units; use more sanguinary guard in list
• Chalice Overflow (use narthecium ability once more) 1CP- Move Phase SANGUINARY GUARD
  • ​1-3x pair with sanguinary guard or death company list design
• Total 23

Any help appreciated, thanks. (edit table didn't work)

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Captain Caine 24th

[Panzer]

Additional relic and Forlorn Fury are a must most of the time. Usually a Red Rampage here and there as well. The rest is completely situational.

[Indefragable]

My record was 15CP in Turn 1. Killed a Stormwolf and a bunch of other stuff, so it was worth it? 

 

I think part of BA's issue in 8th ed currently is that we can have some insane combo's (lookin' at you, Captain Smash)....but they require so much CP to pull off that it leaves us little room for else. And it seems that we're not given much else since those combos have basically been accepted by GW (by way of the tournament types) as so integral to how BA play, that if you aren't using them that way, you're not living up to potential. 

 

...there's debate to be had on that, but I guess what I am getting at is that it can be great practice to deliberately not dump CP into Capt Smash or such and find other combos. 

 

I did in a game and ....ended up using a Smash Librarian instead for similar effect (killed Abaddon in one phase!). Oh well. The theory is sound...

 

• Upon Wings of Fire
• Red Rampage
• Honor the Chapter
• Extra Relic(s)/Warlord Traits
• Death Visions of Sanguinius (possibly multiple times)

 

Those are the staples for me. If I'm not using the above I don't know if I'm even playing BA. I could theoretically pop UWoF and HtC every single Turn/phase if I had rich Uncle giving me unlimited CP's. 

 

Especially with Blood of Baal now, we have SO many useful Relics/SiW that I find it almost offensive not to take 3 every game. They open up so many possibilities for us. 

[redshadow]

Forlorn fury and honour of the chapter are my favourite, that I use nearly every game, red rampage, death visions and upon wigs of fire I use often but I always without fail take the extra relic.

I also like descent of angels, transhuman, only in death, death on the wind and the one that allows you to interrupt assault but these i don’t always use.

Haha I forgot command re-rolls I use them every game

Edited April 29, 2020 by redshadow

[SamaNagol]

Most used....

 

Death Visions

Armoury Of Baal

Forlorn Fury

Upon Wings

Descent Of Angels

Honour The Chapter

Only In Death

Transhuman Physiology

Refusal To Die

Death On The Wind

Unbridled Ardour

[Blindhamster]

My record was 15CP in Turn 1. Killed a Stormwolf and a bunch of other stuff, so it was worth it? 

 

I think part of BA's issue in 8th ed currently is that we can have some insane combo's (lookin' at you, Captain Smash)....but they require so much CP to pull off that it leaves us little room for else. And it seems that we're not given much else since those combos have basically been accepted by GW (by way of the tournament types) as so integral to how BA play, that if you aren't using them that way, you're not living up to potential. 

 

...there's debate to be had on that, but I guess what I am getting at is that it can be great practice to deliberately not dump CP into Capt Smash or such and find other combos. 

 

I did in a game and ....ended up using a Smash Librarian instead for similar effect (killed Abaddon in one phase!). Oh well. The theory is sound...

 

• Upon Wings of Fire
• Red Rampage
• Honor the Chapter
• Extra Relic(s)/Warlord Traits
• Death Visions of Sanguinius (possibly multiple times)

 

Those are the staples for me. If I'm not using the above I don't know if I'm even playing BA. I could theoretically pop UWoF and HtC every single Turn/phase if I had rich Uncle giving me unlimited CP's. 

 

Especially with Blood of Baal now, we have SO many useful Relics/SiW that I find it almost offensive not to take 3 every game. They open up so many possibilities for us. 

and other chapters do captain smash better than us these days anyway.

[Indefragable]

 

My record was 15CP in Turn 1. Killed a Stormwolf and a bunch of other stuff, so it was worth it? 

 

I think part of BA's issue in 8th ed currently is that we can have some insane combo's (lookin' at you, Captain Smash)....but they require so much CP to pull off that it leaves us little room for else. And it seems that we're not given much else since those combos have basically been accepted by GW (by way of the tournament types) as so integral to how BA play, that if you aren't using them that way, you're not living up to potential. 

 

...there's debate to be had on that, but I guess what I am getting at is that it can be great practice to deliberately not dump CP into Capt Smash or such and find other combos. 

 

I did in a game and ....ended up using a Smash Librarian instead for similar effect (killed Abaddon in one phase!). Oh well. The theory is sound...

 

• Upon Wings of Fire
• Red Rampage
• Honor the Chapter
• Extra Relic(s)/Warlord Traits
• Death Visions of Sanguinius (possibly multiple times)

 

Those are the staples for me. If I'm not using the above I don't know if I'm even playing BA. I could theoretically pop UWoF and HtC every single Turn/phase if I had rich Uncle giving me unlimited CP's. 

 

Especially with Blood of Baal now, we have SO many useful Relics/SiW that I find it almost offensive not to take 3 every game. They open up so many possibilities for us. 

and other chapters do captain smash better than us these days anyway.

 

Red Rampage is the edge that makes us stand out slightly, but other chapters require less get similar results, so yea I’d say we’ve been lapped.

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

My record was 15CP in Turn 1. Killed a Stormwolf and a bunch of other stuff, so it was worth it? 

 

I think part of BA's issue in 8th ed currently is that we can have some insane combo's (lookin' at you, Captain Smash)....but they require so much CP to pull off that it leaves us little room for else. And it seems that we're not given much else since those combos have basically been accepted by GW (by way of the tournament types) as so integral to how BA play, that if you aren't using them that way, you're not living up to potential. 

 

...there's debate to be had on that, but I guess what I am getting at is that it can be great practice to deliberately not dump CP into Capt Smash or such and find other combos. 

 

I did in a game and ....ended up using a Smash Librarian instead for similar effect (killed Abaddon in one phase!). Oh well. The theory is sound...

 

 

• Upon Wings of Fire
• Red Rampage
• Honor the Chapter
• Extra Relic(s)/Warlord Traits
• Death Visions of Sanguinius (possibly multiple times)

 

Those are the staples for me. If I'm not using the above I don't know if I'm even playing BA. I could theoretically pop UWoF and HtC every single Turn/phase if I had rich Uncle giving me unlimited CP's. 

 

Especially with Blood of Baal now, we have SO many useful Relics/SiW that I find it almost offensive not to take 3 every game. They open up so many possibilities for us.

and other chapters do captain smash better than us these days anyway.

Which ones are those in your opinion? All I could think of are White Scars and Raven Guard, perhaps...

[Blindhamster]

There was some pretty good analysis of smash captain potential from different chapters a little while back

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-smash-captain-thunderdome/#Conclusions

 

The numbers are pretty damning it it tbh.

[Captain Caine 24th]

My record was 15CP in Turn 1. Killed a Stormwolf and a bunch of other stuff, so it was worth it? 

 

I think part of BA's issue in 8th ed currently is that we can have some insane combo's (lookin' at you, Captain Smash)....but they require so much CP to pull off that it leaves us little room for else. And it seems that we're not given much else since those combos have basically been accepted by GW (by way of the tournament types) as so integral to how BA play, that if you aren't using them that way, you're not living up to potential. 

 

...there's debate to be had on that, but I guess what I am getting at is that it can be great practice to deliberately not dump CP into Capt Smash or such and find other combos. 

 

I did in a game and ....ended up using a Smash Librarian instead for similar effect (killed Abaddon in one phase!). Oh well. The theory is sound...

 

• Upon Wings of Fire
• Red Rampage
• Honor the Chapter
• Extra Relic(s)/Warlord Traits
• Death Visions of Sanguinius (possibly multiple times)

 

Those are the staples for me. If I'm not using the above I don't know if I'm even playing BA. I could theoretically pop UWoF and HtC every single Turn/phase if I had rich Uncle giving me unlimited CP's. 

 

Especially with Blood of Baal now, we have SO many useful Relics/SiW that I find it almost offensive not to take 3 every game. They open up so many possibilities for us. 

 

I think there'd be quite a few situations where 15 CP in turn one would work well. Reduce enemy effectiveness, use your army at its maximum capacity. I'm sure it'd depend on available opportunities/targets, but why wait if opportunity presents itself? I've not tried the new relics yet, but I agree. Very interesting stuff there.

 

Smash Captains.

There was some pretty good analysis of smash captain potential from different chapters a little while back

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-smash-captain-thunderdome/#Conclusions

 

The numbers are pretty damning it it tbh.

Those numbers are not good. I didn't realize it was that bad. I suppose I always expect to fight 2x if needed. This raises some doubt for me about using a smash captain versus intentionally budgeting CP elsewhere. It's a huge CP drain. Points have gone up. Often a 1 shot tactic isn't a fair trade off. It seems to me that a case can be made for adjusting strategy to get buffs/bonuses through other means than CP use, e.g. Chaplains, Librarians. As maybe a hold-over from 7th Ed. I often don't bring any psychic at all if it looks like i'm just bringing one or two cheap psykers. I typically feel I'll be outmatched and denied outright. But, BA  has good powers (if a bit needed for Meph and a libby dread), and powers might help me use less CP. I mean, it's nice to have (super scary) units in a list that are capable of killing anything in 1 battleround, but there is a risk of hard-counters, and redundancy anti-tank in list building can alleviate some of the shortfall in 1-unit effectiveness.

 

Upon Wings of Fire. Even without a strict plan to use a smash captain, I still believe in budgeting UWOF CP in (1) allowing me to correct bad deployment;  (2) dealing with unavoidable restrictions to deployment (deep zones, or odd tournament mission packets); (3) allowing flexibility among all JUMP PACK units, not just the captain; (4) getting last minute objectives; (5) combining synergy with tactical objectives oriented at assault & jump pack units.  

[SnorriSnorrison]

There was some pretty good analysis of smash captain potential from different chapters a little while back

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-smash-captain-thunderdome/#Conclusions

 

The numbers are pretty damning it it tbh.

The numbers aren’t exactly up to date, since we’ve gained our own doctrines, updated chapter tactic and super-doctrine as well in the meantime. Also, almost all of the characters need to 1) be in range of a knight 2) make a 9 inch charge without re-rolls after deep strike 3) weather overwatch from a knight and live, 4) live until turn 3 for their extra -1 AP to take effect.

 

The typical Slamguinius can at the very least ignore overwatch, re-deploy into weak spots via UWoF or Forlon Fury re-roll 8” charges, wound a knight on a 3 without any need for a WLT or stratagem spent and that’s before you factor in stuff like quake bolts to gain an extra +1 to hit or the miraculous presence of a Sanguiniary Priest for S9 to also wound on 2’s.

 

All of the above is so theoretical that I wouldn’t give much on those stats, tbh. The main difference is that Blood Angels actually have the tools to reach a knight on the first turn...

[Blindhamster]

 

There was some pretty good analysis of smash captain potential from different chapters a little while back

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-smash-captain-thunderdome/#Conclusions

 

The numbers are pretty damning it it tbh.

The numbers aren’t exactly up to date, since we’ve gained our own doctrines, updated chapter tactic and super-doctrine as well in the meantime. Also, almost all of the characters need to 1) be in range of a knight 2) make a 9 inch charge without re-rolls after deep strike 3) weather overwatch from a knight and live, 4) live until turn 3 for their extra -1 AP to take effect.

 

The typical Slamguinius can at the very least ignore overwatch, re-deploy into weak spots via UWoF or Forlon Fury re-roll 8” charges, wound a knight on a 3 without any need for a WLT or stratagem spent and that’s before you factor in stuff like quake bolts to gain an extra +1 to hit or the miraculous presence of a Sanguiniary Priest for S9 to also wound on 2’s.

 

All of the above is so theoretical that I wouldn’t give much on those stats, tbh. The main difference is that Blood Angels actually have the tools to reach a knight on the first turn...

 

scars can advance and charge iirc, so they're in with a good shot too.  Raven guard have the ability to get close and jump pack rules too i thought? And they're hard to hit.

 

You're right it doesn't take into account our doctrines so our AP went up and we got another attack, would be interesting to see how that would affect the numbers. But i don't imagine it bumps us that far up the chain.

[Panzer]

I think the most important thing to consider is that we as Blood Angels have other quite capable melee units (as well as a great melee buff to all our units turn 3+) so we simply aren't depending on a Smash Captain quite as much as others anyway. Hence why Stephen Box just went and replaced his with a unit of Vanguard Veterans.

Opens up quite a lot of CP to use on the rest of our army instead.

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

There was some pretty good analysis of smash captain potential from different chapters a little while back

 https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-smash-captain-thunderdome/#Conclusions

 

The numbers are pretty damning it it tbh.

 

The numbers aren’t exactly up to date, since we’ve gained our own doctrines, updated chapter tactic and super-doctrine as well in the meantime. Also, almost all of the characters need to 1) be in range of a knight 2) make a 9 inch charge without re-rolls after deep strike 3) weather overwatch from a knight and live, 4) live until turn 3 for their extra -1 AP to take effect.

The typical Slamguinius can at the very least ignore overwatch, re-deploy into weak spots via UWoF or Forlon Fury re-roll 8” charges, wound a knight on a 3 without any need for a WLT or stratagem spent and that’s before you factor in stuff like quake bolts to gain an extra +1 to hit or the miraculous presence of a Sanguiniary Priest for S9 to also wound on 2’s.

All of the above is so theoretical that I wouldn’t give much on those stats, tbh. The main difference is that Blood Angels actually have the tools to reach a knight on the first turn...

scars can advance and charge iirc, so they're in with a good shot too.  Raven guard have the ability to get close and jump pack rules too i thought? And they're hard to hit.

You're right it doesn't take into account our doctrines so our AP went up and we got another attack, would be interesting to see how that would affect the numbers. But i don't imagine it bumps us that far up the chain.

Fair enough, the advance + charge might make a 2nd turn charge possible for the scars, but then obviously they won’t have their doctrine active. Their psychic discipline is also quite nasty.

Raven guard have the no-overwatch and re-deploy psychic power, and the advance + charge stratagem, which you obviously can’t pull after deepstrike.

 

I mean, yeah other smash captains are also good and possibly better than ours, but the numbers presented in the article don’t seem to tell that much because they’re not very practical.

 

I agree with Panzer that we don’t rely on Smash captains to deliver the pain, we have many options for that in the codex that also look very cool and are an integral part of the BA’s flavour.

[Blindhamster]

ive never used a smash captain in a single game.

I like swords. And now I run pure primaris, it's not like i have the option anyway :P

 

[SnorriSnorrison]

Not yet! Let’s keep those fingers crossed for Dante :D I hope he gets a better makeover than Mephiston, which was quite...lacklustre at best. Wish listing for +1 CP when fielded and maybe a mortal wound for each 6+ he rolls with Mortalis. And some insane buff auras :D

[Panzer]

Eh, Mephiston was a good pick before and obviously is still with +1W and +1A.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Yeah, stat wise. Could’ve used another rule to show off his increased psychic power, though. He’s supposed to be the mightiest psyker in the Imperium but Tigurius gets a +1 to cast and deny(not sure on the latter).

[Panzer]

That's true. He's not a particular good psyker rules-wise which doesn't fit his lore.

I wouldn't say he's the mightiest psyker in the Imperium though and him passing the Rubicon Primaris didn't increase his psychic powers either.

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

I think the most important thing to consider is that we as Blood Angels have other quite capable melee units (as well as a great melee buff to all our units turn 3+) so we simply aren't depending on a Smash Captain quite as much as others anyway. Hence why Stephen Box just went and replaced his with a unit of Vanguard Veterans.

Opens up quite a lot of CP to use on the rest of our army instead.

 

This is likely the best piece of advice on this thread yet. If you keep your characters cheap and utilitarian, it opens up so many options for the rest of your army. Personally, I have never used a Smash Captain and I think it makes the army sing. A cheap captain, with the storm shield and Angels Wing, is awesome for clearing the way for a unit of VV or SG to get in and destroy anything you are looking to kill. Plus then you don't have to fret as much when the dice aren't with you and your character (which is likely the linchpin in your overall strategy) whiffs his rolls and then dies.

[Blindhamster]

That's true. He's not a particular good psyker rules-wise which doesn't fit his lore.

I wouldn't say he's the mightiest psyker in the Imperium though and him passing the Rubicon Primaris didn't increase his psychic powers either.

it did, but in a roundabout way.

 

since it happened he has been able to unleash his powers with less fear of losing control. The rubicon kinda didn't increase the power, but the other events (as shown in darkness in the blood) did.

 

He is so powerful that when he was losing control, he was breaking through a null field with enough power to send people mad.

 

And he has probed the hive mind, just like Tigarius.

[Vermintide]

Relics, Death Visions, The Jump Pack One, and The Fight Twice One. I really want to use the terminator +1 to hit one, because it'll be dirty with all the thunder hammers I'm packing. But I haven't had chance to try it in a game yet.

I really don't like the way stratagems fit into the meta to be honest. You have The Good Ones, then you have a bunch that are only useful in niche situations and you either never remember them, or just don't have enough CP, because you didn't bring the mandatory dual battalion (which really harms us in the smaller point games I'm used to). The ones that are strong are just too strong, to the point of forming the cornerstone of your overall strategy.

And in case you can't tell I don't have enough memory to store all the names

[Majkhel]

.... the miraculous presence of a Sanguiniary Priest for S9 to also wound on 2’s.

 

That's actually S10 as weapon (in this case TH, but also PF and others) modifiers are applied after other modifiers. Not that it matters much in case of a Knight :P

[Captain Caine 24th]

Relics, Death Visions, The Jump Pack One, and The Fight Twice One. I really want to use the terminator +1 to hit one, because it'll be dirty with all the thunder hammers I'm packing. But I haven't had chance to try it in a game yet.

 

I really don't like the way stratagems fit into the meta to be honest. You have The Good Ones, then you have a bunch that are only useful in niche situations and you either never remember them, or just don't have enough CP, because you didn't bring the mandatory dual battalion (which really harms us in the smaller point games I'm used to). The ones that are strong are just too strong, to the point of forming the cornerstone of your overall strategy.

 

And in case you can't tell I don't have enough memory to store all the names

I agree CP use hurts lower point games. Also, I didn't bring blood angels to the Adepticon team tournament this year (besides cancellation due to the pandemic) because CP was limited by the tournament package. There were special detachments and each army had to be comprised of these detachments. Ultimately it meant I'd be looking at something like 5 CP at most. I still like CP as a game mechanic, despite the flaws, because it seems to be an alternative a way to enhance the usability or flexibility of a unit besides point cost alone. 7th Edition seemed to marginalize (or whatever you want to call it) whole armies. I'm not saying all units are usable now in 8th, or all armies are on equal footing, but I still think it's a vast improvement. 

 

For now I think I'll budget and plan my 2000pt list building towards about 14CP... or battleforged, 2x battalions, and a third 1CP detachment to be determined, like a spearhead, vanguard, or supreme command. 

[SamaNagol]

14 is what we should generally aim for.