Ranking the Primarchs - 30k

[The Neverborn]

I'm up to about 30 in the Horus Heresy series, before I got into it i was aware that the Primarchs, while all beats didn't all excel equally. And it seems clear that I was not misinformed. Even a normal Imperial probably wouldn't gain too much from taking strategic planning lessons from Angron or interpersonal lessons from, well most of them actually.

 

The are all quite fighty though, I've had this on my mind for some time. Ideally I would wait until all the books are done and I've done them all. However, they are not all quality books so i'm not sure that will every happen.

 

But in my mind this is how they Rank in tiers for "fightyness". - I'm avoiding X beat Y and Y beat Z so X would beat Z. That's just generally not always the case. In their first fights, Frazier narrowly beat Ali, Ali beat Foreman, though with great labor. But Foreman obliterated Frazier. 

 

*S Tier*

 

Angron 

 

*A Tier*

 

Horus

Sangiunus

Night Hunter

Corax

Lehman Russ

 

*B Tier*

 

Fulgrim

Perturabo

 

*C Tier*

 

Magnus the Red

Vulkan

 

*D Tier*

 

Ferrus Manus

Roboute Guilliman

Lion'el Jonson

Dorn

 

*E Tier*

 

Alpharius/Omegon

Logar

 

 

Unsure

 

 

Khan

Mortarion

 

 

To me Angron just edges out all others in 30k. I can just about see some of them other Primarch's beating him, but it would probably require a lot of luck or a wild gamble.

 

 

Horus, Sangiunus, Night Hunter, Corax and Russ to me see like the strongest fighters and the ones the others would avoid or go into expecting to loose. 

 

Fulgrim and Perturabo to me fall just short of the above, bu honesty it's close and I could but probably Corax and Hunter here too.  

 

Magnus and Vulkan seem to be among the pack, but edge out some of the others by their characteristics, Vulkans with his physicality and Magnus with his knowledge of the warp.

 

Ferris, The Lion, Guilliman and Dorn. I've never felt on the page their  peers were worried about though, and mostly I think they know that while they're not push overs they're not as fighty as most of their peers. With the exception of the Lion, who seems to have complete lack of self awareness and I think would probably think he could beat The Emperor. 

 

Alpharius/Omegon and Logar  seem to know their failings mostly and I don't get the feeling they are respected by their peers for the martial ability.

 

Khan and Mortarion I've not been able to grade. Mortarion in the works I've read seems like he'd avoid personal conflict as his 1st instinct, but I'd rank him in the lower third. Khan I can't really remember mingling with his brothers, but I think mostly is respected, so probably upper third. 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Battle Brother Abderus

[b1soul]

This is probably more appropriate for the Age of Darkness forum

[Roomsky]

Well if you count Forgeworld as canon, 1d4chan has a rundown of who wins every matchup.

 

If not, I'd like to raise the points that A) Dorn has so far won every primarch engagement of his besides getting jumped by Curze and B ) A power-armoured Curze was beaten senseless by a naked, emaciated, and hallucinating Vulkan.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Roomsky

[Scribe]

Just gonna get ahead of the curve.

 

1. This thread will devolve.

 

2. As someone who has trained for near a decade, anyone can beat anyone in a fight, and if the contest is even remotely close, not like Primarch vs Child exaggerations, then it's REALLY about the context and the demands of the story.

[DarkChaplain]

Well if you count Forgeworld as canon, 1d4chan has a rundown of who wins every matchup.

 

If not, I'd like to raise the points that A) Dorn has so far won every primarch engagement of his besides getting jumped by Curze and B ) A power-armoured Curze was beaten senseless by a naked, emaciated, and hallucinating Vulkan.

 

On top of that, the Lion has beaten Curze numerous times, Corax only ever seems to have won against Guilliman when he had the benefit of surprise, before Guilliman adapted to it during their countless sparring matches. Vulkan had to actively hold back against most of his brothers. The Khan might've wooped Fulgrim's bum and is one of the prime blademasters of his kind, whereas the Lion is probably the top duelist. Sanguinius was usually considered one of the top 3 by his brothers, too. And then you had superhero novel versions of Curze, Guilliman and the Lion, with Curze fighting them both off at the same time and kinda winning. Corax was also afraid of Curze on Isstvan and saw himself dying if he'd stayed to fight him.

 

So yeah, any kind of ranking is doomed to fail. They're all super-human apex wardudes. The only thing really differing is their specialization, and their tactical approach.

[The Neverborn]

Just gonna get ahead of the curve.

 

1. This thread will devolve.

 

2. As someone who has trained for near a decade, anyone can beat anyone in a fight, and if the contest is even remotely close, not like Primarch vs Child exaggerations, then it's REALLY about the context and the demands of the story.

 

I agree with the 1st Point.

 

With the second, I think there's a bit of hyperbole there. 

 

To use my own Allegory, I don't think was anyway to Fraizer could have beaten Foreman. 

 

In some match ups what Party A can do, Party B can just do slightly better. In this instance they only way forward is to use something like Fabian Tactics, which is why i've used tiers as *should* not *would*

Edited April 30, 2020 by Battle Brother Abderus

[Scribe]

 

Just gonna get ahead of the curve.

 

1. This thread will devolve.

 

2. As someone who has trained for near a decade, anyone can beat anyone in a fight, and if the contest is even remotely close, not like Primarch vs Child exaggerations, then it's REALLY about the context and the demands of the story.

 

I agree with the 1st Point.

 

With the second, I think there's a bit of hyperbole there. 

 

To use my own Allegory, I don't think was anyway to Fraizer could have beaten Foreman. 

 

In some match ups what Party A can do, Party B can just do slightly better. In this instance they only way forward is to use something like Fabian Tactics, which is why i've used tiers as *should* not *would*

 

 

There is simply no way to say 'X could never beat Y'.

 

A very simple example (if you follow MMA at all) is Aldo vs McGregor. Aldo was an absolute saw-blade, for years and years absolutely destroying people. McGregor is good, but he's not 'I One-Punch KO you in the first seconds' good.

 

Yet, that is absolutely how it went down.

[Tarvek Val]

I think that it's particularly difficult to group the primarchs into any kind of power ranking, as others have said. First and foremost, there are the instances, such as those outlined in other posts above, whereby different primarchs come out better or worse against one another in wildly different ways depending on what book you're reading. EG: unarmored Vulkan beats the   out of Curze, yet Curze holds his own against Guilliman and the Lion at the same time in another instance.This "varies-by-text" and "varies-by-author" approach makes it very difficult, in my opinion, to get an accurate gauge of how any primarch would stack up against any of his brothers. Secondly, how do warp powers / mutations fit into the discussion? I would argue that daemon-Fulgrim is on a whole other level of lethality than human-Fulgrim. The same would go for Lorgar. Primarchs like Angron and Mortarion fall into this category too. Then there's Magnus — how exponentially did his power grow under the patronage of Tzeentch? The warp just further muddies the ranking for me.

 

For all my doubts about an accurate way to rank the primarchs, I do like the list you've come up with, Abderus. In a fully-neutral setting and assuming the most basic 'variation' of each primarch (no daemonic blessings, no element of surprise for Curze / Corax, etc.), I can certainly agree with most of your rankings.

[Ishagu]

This is a bit of a childish and silly topic as their duelling capability is only a small part of their utility.

 

A classic example is Alpharius. He's the weakest of the Primarchs in a duel, but very useful against many of the difficult monsters found in the HH game and 5th edition rules thanks to his Instant Death rule in melee.

 

Also your tier listing is wrong. Some math has already been done on this.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[The Neverborn]

This is a bit of a childish and silly topic as their duelling capability is only a small part of their utility.

 

You know i'm starting to agree with you.

 

Initially i thought it would be fun, but it seems to be dredging up much more low-key hostility.

 

Honestly I didn't think this was too different to something like "Which is the best Horus Heresy Book".

 

Admin please lock this before it descends any further. 

[Scribe]

Dont take it personally Abderus, there are simply a few (many) people on this forum who cannot objectively look at anything when 'their' Primarch is involved.

[Tarvek Val]

 

 

This is a bit of a childish and silly topic as their duelling capability is only a small part of their utility.

 

I think it's still a topic that's worth consideration, though I agree that the primarchs are capable of a lot more than 1-v-1 combat. In the Heresy era, those that cannot fight certainly don't have the longest life expectancy. 

 

There are just a substantial amount of factors that could really swing the favor of any 1-v-1 primarch conflict in the favor of the 'underdog' of the match. 

[Scribe]

Besides, its not hard to work out the correct list.

 

*S Tier*

 

Angron 

 

*A Tier*

 

Horus

Sangiunus

Night Hunter

Corax

Lehman Russ

Khan

Fulgrim

Lion'el Jonson

 

*B Tier*

 

Mortarion

Perturabo

Roboute Guilliman

Dorn

 

*C Tier*

 

Magnus the Red

Vulkan

 

*D Tier*

 

Alpharius/Omegon

 

*E Tier*

 

Logar

 

*F Tier*

 

Ferrus Manus - You lose your head, your at the bottom

 

----------------------

 

I can break this down for people who need it, but it's looking quite correct. ;)

[Roomsky]

I didn’t mean to disparage your topic, Abderus. For the sake of fun, here’s mine, but I freely admit this is hardly made with any kind of objectivity. Height of the great crusade, no Chaos blessings, no insanity (Curze), and no Psyker hax (Magnus). Angron's detriments can't be avoided, he had no good times.

 

S-Tier

Sanguinius

A-Tier

Horus, Leman Russ, Lion El’Jonson, Jaghatai Khan, Fulgrim

B-Tier

Vulkan, Rogal Dorn, Angron

C-Tier

Konrad Curze, Corvus Corax, Roboute Guilliman, Perturabo, Ferrus Manus, Mortarion

D-Tier

Magnus, Lorgar, Alpharius Omegon

[Scribe]

B?

 

B?!?

 

Sir, this is an outrage. 

[Roomsky]

B?

 

B?!?

 

Sir, this is an outrage. 

 

 

I acknowledge it’s very difficult to not get killed against a berserker who doesn’t care about dying themselves. That said, I’m skeptical at his ability to effectively use firearms, and his war gear isn’t great. Perturabo would just blow him up.

 

I will admit he has shown himself to be very effective against rocks.

[b1soul]

1. Jaghatai Khan

2. the rest

[Scribe]

At least make an effort to justify that bias b1soul. :p

[b1soul]

I believe he is the only Primarch with a topknot

 

That's good enough for me

[Kelborn]

I assume that I'll get some headaches because of this thread in the near future...

 

This is one of those topics which Just can't be discussed in any reasonable way.

 

Each author is somewhat "biased" in portraying Primarchs. There will never be a ranking which pleases all or even comes close to a realistic outcome... *Sigh*

[calgar101]

This subject is always a difficult one, however if it doesn't turn in to name calling it can be hugely interesting. In order to get a better understanding of their strengths and weaknesses, should we draw up parameters? Are we going to have chaos empowered Primarchs or is this before any warp boosts? Magnus can't ever get away from being warp juiced, being a powerful psyker was his thing. Depictions of Primarch has also been very varied and inconsistent. Guilliman and the Lion struggled against Curze but Guilliman held off Angron and Lorgar simultaneously; Guilliman would probably have eventually been killed but do you understand my point?

I think some Primarchs get overlooked for various reasons and others are over hyped.

The only measurement we could use so far is which Primarchs have killed another? Which has a clear answer but isn't as clear cut as it seems. Then do we go on those who have bested more of their brothers in combat? Winning a fight that has no real consequences to me doesn't matter but that's just my opinion.

Is Angron regarded as one of the best or the best fighter because that's all he has? The Lion is regarded as a deadly fighter and that's been shown in the novel's but his tactical brilliance has also been shown.

[StrangerOrders]

Interesting exercise.

 

I shall give two lists.

 

List 1. From the PoV of your standard Legionary and PoV in a given novel.

 

A-Tier

The Legionaries Primarch (Look at me daddy! I was a good boy, my dad can beat up everyone else's Dad!).

B-Tier

Whichever Primarch practices a similar MO to the Protag Legion or has been nice to them. 

The In-Setting Memetic Primarchs (Sangi, Angron).

C-Tier

Whichever Primarch has the SAME MO, he also smells.

D-Tier

Lorgar. This applies even to the Word Bearers in views of fighting.

 

My own PoV

 

A-Tier

The given Protagonist Primarch (Except Lorgar, one of ADB's best choices was having Corax beat the snot out of him. Props to the guy for not puffing up his favs to the point of actively trying to kill the guy)

B-Tier

Literally every other Primarch. The Emp didnt skimp out on making a literal Pantheon. It is also contextual. Guilliman almost took down Lorgar and Angron while he and the Lion got the stuffing punched out of them by Scrawn-y Boy Kurze while in a previous story the Lion just stabbed him to near-death.

B--Tier

Lorgar. The guy had his talents but most of the times we see him fight he is either not that into it or is knocked off balance by something or other. His realization that Guilliman didnt hate him before in Betrayer or his covering for the Gal Vorbak in First Heretic being examples. I wouldn't be dumb enough to rate him any lower than slightly beneath the others though. 

 

But we all know

A-Tier

Kurze- Literally the only Primarch smart enough to let explosives solve this. Regrettably he was foiled by Necron's hand-waving the laws of physics (with help from the literal Power of Friendship). 

 

Edit: Also, fun realization in retrospect. Despite being known for his 'logic' and being mechanically buffed by it. Guilliman as written tends to benefit when he lets his rage get the better of him. He is actually pretty akin to Angron in that it seems he is actively buffed by outrage and indignation to the point of doing impossible crap only when he loses his temper.

Edited April 30, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

This subject is always a difficult one, however if it doesn't turn in to name calling it can be hugely interesting.

 

I wish we could have an earnest and intellectually honest discussion on it, but the odds are terminal.

 

I look at it like this. Its one of those 'you have 10 dollars, build a Primarch out of these x options' and if you spread out the points you get a Primarch like Rob, but you can also lean into an area, like Russ, or Angron.

 

You then have the obvious outlier, in Horus.

 

Ultimately, its a theoretical discussion because Author quality will render any side by side comparison completely and utterly irrelevant. If we listen to Abnett, Night Haunter is an absolute elemental force of nature, and could easily best every Primarch.

 

I'd enjoy it, but it simply wont get traction because some people cannot help but be blind.

[StrangerOrders]

 

This subject is always a difficult one, however if it doesn't turn in to name calling it can be hugely interesting.

 

I wish we could have an earnest and intellectually honest discussion on it, but the odds are terminal.

 

I look at it like this. Its one of those 'you have 10 dollars, build a Primarch out of these x options' and if you spread out the points you get a Primarch like Rob, but you can also lean into an area, like Russ, or Angron.

 

You then have the obvious outlier, in Horus.

 

Ultimately, its a theoretical discussion because Author quality will render any side by side comparison completely and utterly irrelevant. If we listen to Abnett, Night Haunter is an absolute elemental force of nature, and could easily best every Primarch.

 

I'd enjoy it, but it simply wont get traction because some people cannot help but be blind.

 

Honestly, my issue with this conversation is the issue with alot of 'versus' debates.

 

I don't mind them if you set out specific preconditions to put the actors into. White rooms are just kind of impossible for me to buy.

 

Moreso with epic figures like the Primarchs, because they are so enslaved to their emotions that you cant get a good read without knowing where their head space is at the time.

 

I think alot of the fighting comes from the old ghost of 40k fights though. Not everyone has the time or sheer willingness to read through the number of books each character is in. This freaking thing has so many books that I gave up on fully knowing everything a while ago. And most people arent going to read about this that dont interest them.

 

40k is a more severe case because of two factors, the wikis and the unreliable narrator.

 

If you love Perturabo, but hate Rogal. You are likely not going to read alot of Rogal books. So your PoV will develop from the PoV the IW are endlessly beating into your head, moreso because the issue with Unreliable Narrator is that it can easily merge with confirmation bias. Especially because all of us tend to lose the ability to divorce outselves from things that entail our favorites.

 

And alot of people regrettably just pick up their general knowledge from the wikis. And for some strange reason, 40k has some of the most out-dated, poorly-sources and generally unreliable wikis of just about any setting. And people tend to have an unhealthy trust in them. 

 

So alot of us go into these topics deeply compromised and arguing not from different viewpoints but entirely different datasets. Alot of us are functionally no better than the Legionaries bickering about these things insetting.

 

And given that the conditioned response is to go for the literal chainaxe. Its not surprising that many of us instead go for the metaphorical chainaxe (questioning the validity of each other's genetic heritage, making implications about congenital conditions, accusations of promiscuity or incestuous tendencies, etc).

 

Bright side. B&C is by far the most civil of 40k-centered forums in my experience. So folks tend to have more self-awareness.

 

That we are mostly pretty well-read about this stuff does help curate the worse-impulses as well. 

[calgar101]

I completely agree with you there Scribe! And you also make excellent points StrangerOrders.