Crazy Alpha Legion at Chondax idea

[b1soul]

I know this probably didn't happen

 

...but the AL seem to have mastered the technique of soul transfer per PoD, pulling a soul-switcheroo in that novel

 

If they could transfer an AL soul to a xenos subject (a sedated captive, for example), could they not have an AL specialist cadre play an Ork boss and his nobs?

 

That way, the AL could manipulate the Orks at Chondax even more effectively

 

Kinda crazy...but I feel the AL are pretty crazy with the lengths they'd go to in order to manipulate other factions

 

This was never mentioned in Malevolence, but the in-universe writer would have limited knowledge

[b1soul]

Other ideas include Avatar-like essence transfer into a customised Ork host body and/or remote mental influence (not outright domination) by AL libbies

[Xin Ceithan]

If the Assassins can make someone pose as a Genestealer hybrid by implants and mutagenic injections, who knows what someone with access to a Legion's Ressourcen combined with an whatever it takes outlook might come up with.

 

And that's even before considering a sort of "ego-casting" into an ork body.

 

Not saying it would a actually work in the end. But one of the dualities in AL operations seems to be the ongoing clash of effectiveness (while Orks are not thaat stupid, it's probably easy to point them at a target and keep them going) vs over complicating things just to see what they can get away with...

[Lucerne]

Ork psychic puppets sound like something the Legion would do. Think Eisenhorn/Ravenor puppetry.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Lucerne

[calgar101]

Not being critical about you b1soul but that is a far out and crazy idea. Would it work? Who knows! The Alpha Legion would try something far out like that, they thought out of the box and more. Only potential issue I see is Orks have an innate sense if another Ork is unOrky. If the soul switch was possible, would other Orks sense it?

[MegaVolt87]

Not being critical about you b1soul but that is a far out and crazy idea. Would it work? Who knows! The Alpha Legion would try something far out like that, they thought out of the box and more. Only potential issue I see is Orks have an innate sense if another Ork is unOrky. If the soul switch was possible, would other Orks sense it?

 

10+ years ago this would have been crazy, with how lore is now these days its plausible. The new principle for 40k lore seems to be now "nothing is true, everything is permitted." ;) 

[b1soul]

Yeah, it's definitely an "out there" idea. It's basically phychic/soul possession of Ork meat-puppets.

 

Another idea is that a branch of the AL studies xenos in-depth. Within that branch, a specialist cadre focuses on the systematic study of Ork behavioural patterns and the most effective means of manipulation based on such behaviour (mostly conventional means such as those described in Malevolence). This cadre has been covertly manipulating Orks for decades prior to the close of the GC.

 

An experimental, cutting-edge means of manipulation (available to this cadre perhaps a year or two before the start of the Chondax campaign) is the soul shenanigans described above.

 

I think this lends the idea more flavour.

Edited May 1, 2020 by b1soul

[bluntblade]

That sounds one rung above even Thousand Sons pre-fall.

 

I still find it lingeringly odd that FW decided to pull a confusing retcon on Chondax rather than write a new campaign which would flesh out the Scars' subsequent story, shed light on the growing corruption of the Traitor Legions and serve the theme of their own book.

Edited May 1, 2020 by bluntblade

[b1soul]

Maybe some of the requisite skills were learned by the AL Librarius from the TSons earlier during the GC hehe

[Bung]

Sounds like something out of the Legion of the Damned novel Series from William C. Dietz.

There is in book where a human consciounes is transfered into an alien Body to act as a spy / assasin.

As GW borrowed from any Sci Fi setting i think that could Happen too.

[Indefragable]

...or perhaps the Alpha Legion pays off Ork warbosses?

 

We know Orkz act as pirates and mercenaries, so I can see the Alpha Legion’s logic of “we shall ally with the xenos to destroy the xenos” being used during the Great Crusade, Age of Darkness, and beyond.

 

Or it could be as simple as knowing their foes well enough to manipulate them into actions that are beneficial. That definitely seems AL style. Weren’t the SW herded into the Alaaxes (sp?) Nebula since that was where even more AL forces were hiding? I don’t recall specifically.

 

...either way, to most of the rest of the nascent Imperium the idea of not outright annihilating xenos on the spot is as incomprehensible as soul transference or warp shenanigans.

 

Not knocking on your idea, @b1soulI just prefer more grounded explanations as personal taste.

[b1soul]

A more grounded idea would be in my third post (minus the psychic shenanigans) Edited May 1, 2020 by b1soul

[Xin Ceithan]

In regard to the topic elsewhere, I was also thinking the amount about actual infiltration and / or use of infiltrators in AL operations might be a bit... overrated. Especially the use of Astartes as undercover operatives in other Legions or even xenos. I think one of the defining things is that in AL you do not have to be an Astartes to be an operative and that gives them a whole wider set of tools to pull of an operation in the end.

 

I then also pondered the use of ork mercenaries idea over night. And found it lacking from an AL point of view. It is sound, make no mistake. Probably would be an option when the target is not another legion (since we are technically in the timeline before the outbreak of the actual Heresy / rebellion here). Of course, there is always the unreliability of third party contractors at any rate...

 

But

 

In my head canon the AL are always a bit on the edge... the black ops version of a goblin engineer, so to speak. They built a functional tank. Solid thing, gets the job done. Then they look at it and they get that wierd look in their eyes. "Yeah, it's fine..but what if we could make it FLY ?" See, what I mean?

 

The AL might just pay off some Ork mercs. But...how about this:

 

AL goes out to hire some Ork mercs to make a hit on the Scars. The human operatives behave and pay them in something that would link the hit to the Five Hundred Worlds. Since you can't trust the Orks ( especially the mercenary type) the AL have a group of Legionnaires in the colours of the Scars ambush the mercs, take their stash, beat them up and leave a trail to Chondrax. Now the Orks are pissed and emotionally invested and want to go after the stupid white and red humid flash gits. For free. And bring some friends. Blame goes to Ultramar.

 

Like I said. It might be needlessly complicated but it covers a lot of angles. Everyone can pay some mercs. AL to me is pathologically trying to get it done triple-A.

 

And then there will be probably someone in the Legion who might go " But what if could make ork skin jobs and screw them from within?" As per the OP.

And someone will go along with that. And it will go horribly wrong.

 

At which point someone in the Legion will look at it and wonder how to use THAT to their advantage....

[b1soul]

I wish Ork (and other xenos) mercs were more present in the fluff

 

At present, I'm not sure what GW's position is

 

The AL at Chondax wouldn't just want the Ork mercs to attack the WS, they would want the Ork mercs to fight with uncharacteristic intelligence against the WS to keep the WS occupied for longer and take heavier losses. So the AL would want to feed them tactics/strategies and the Ork mercs would need to implement

[Lucerne]

Obvious approaches: Cause WAAAGHHHs to form and be optimized. Equip the WAAAGH. Ensure the Orks find each other and are herded in the right direction without imploding. Silence any Imperials that might stumble across the problem too early. Set up obstacles to the WAAAAGHHHH to nudge it in the right direction.

[bluntblade]

Thing is, those Orks are explicitly a remnant of the Ullanor Empire.

[Marshal Rohr]

Maybe, except orks have a ... COLLECTIVE SOUL

 

 

 

ZING

 

I’ll be here all week

[Xin Ceithan]

Based on empirical ( empyrean ?) observation I'd say - No.

They need at least two. You know, one brutal, but cunning and one to be cunning, but brutal?

Edited May 2, 2020 by Xin Ceithan

[b1soul]

Instead of puppeting Orks, another idea is to plant ideas in their war-leaders' heads via some sort of remote psychic inception courtesy of the AL's psyker cabal (not sure they even operate as a Librarius).

[Ryltar Thamior]

There's a really rather cool short narrative piece on the concept of Ork mercenaries in EdT's excellent Heresy-era Kill Team log. Although I can definitely understand the idea of the XXth desiring to take things up to eleven and go for a more convoluted and difficult to counter-manipulate/counteract form of influence. 

The way I see it, and pretty close to how a few Frater have phrased their own thinking above, is that there are several ways in which the Alpha Legion could endeavour to make use of Orks in the manner being conceptualized. 

We've got the reasonably direct approach, wherein some emissary does the direct liasing and points the Orks in the direction of a fight and/or pays them to do something ... with various layers and styles of convolution that can be added to this to turn it indirect - including the Alpha Legion having an operative get somebody from *another* Imperial or Traitor force or faction to attempt to enlist the aid of the Orks (perhaps with this itself blowing up when it is deliberately exposed) ... or the subversion of the approach wherein it's made to look like somebody else doing the enlisting, perhaps aided by having a negotiation 'go bad' and shooting start to ensure a grudge etc. 

 Xin Ceithan's post covers that and then some. 

We've also got that suggested by Lucerne - which has some strong resonancies with what actually happened around Chondax, as shown in The Serpent Beneath, wherein running around a lava-moon with explosives to produce natural barriers/directions of advance to keep the Orks as a viable peril to maintain the Vth presence there ... 

and oddly enough, I suspect that that's quite a useful perspective to take when it comes to making use of an Ork Waaagh! at a strategic/operational level. 

It is, in effect, almost a natural force - a flood, perhaps, or an atmospheric storm-front. However, in much the same manner that you windup having to apply quantum principles to weather forecasting because it's not entirely mechanically predictable how an air molecule that's playing Chaos Butterfly is going to flap its wings and therefore which direction a storm will go even as it's already in motion ... the inherent randomness, internal animosity, and associated anarchy of an Ork collective makes it rather hard to ensure it does what you want it to do, even if you've set down an entirely logical, well-thought-out and almost inexorable trajectory for it to go down.

Indeed, it could be suggested that the very fact that there's an orderly, logical, and sensible course for a Waaagh! to take that has been pre-prepared for it by human (er, post-human) hands ... almost strongly militates *against* it being what the Orks are actually likely to do. At least, it renders it unlikely to be a certainty when played out over a longer time-span and distance. As it requires the Orks continuing to act in a reasonably predictable and coherent fashion *without* having a sudden implosion and redirection or simply going off after something shiny [perhaps quite literally] along the way .. *all* along the way. 

These are, of course, countermandable against - but it would be significantly resource intensive to lay out a bread-crumb trail [bread has yeast, yeast is a fungus, squigs are a fungus, therefore bread contains squigs ... after the Orks get to it, at least. In Red Gobbo Revoluzhunary Orktopia, Bread Eats YOU!] across multiple worlds , multiple systems, perhaps even multiple sectors - *along with* all the active and ready to be placed into play as-needed 'countermeassures' and 'prods' designed to *keep* the Orks following this path. Which might include actively fighting off or tacitly subverting potential 'distractionary' military threats along the way seeking to interdict it,etc. ; as well as having to wetworks intervene to keep the leadership of the Waaagh! either directly stable, or at least focused on the same goal they had at the outset rather than suddenly deciding they wanted a fancy hat. 

So ... what is being proposed ... is a manner in which somebody attempts to cut out the middleman - and instead of shaping flood-channels, or cloud-seeding by firing rockets into it for rain [firing rockets into a Waaagh! may also be viable, it certainly produces more spores. The Rockets'  Red Glare signifies they go fasta!] ... effectively *becomes* a key influential element within said pseudo-natural definitely-disaster phenomenon. 

It's not a bad idea. 

But I rather suspect that it is going to run into a difficulty, especially as things keep scaling up [by which point it may no longer be necessary to maintain active-influence rein-holding] , due to the manner in which Ork mass-psychology generates a huge gestalt psychic field. It's not Shadow in the Warp tier, but I could well see it being potent, powerful, and hard to infiltrate/influence. The Orks' default baseline will keep attempting to reassert itself like a psychic immunity field and cast out the foreign object. 

There may be some stuff in The War of the Beast that might be relevant for seeing what happens when powerful psychic bridging/communications are applied in the direction of the Ork. 

Still, in terms of the Alpha Legion's 'hat' of compensating for hidden insecurity by being frenetic over-achievers in the Xanatos-Gambit / Xanatos-Roulette / Thirty Xanatos Pileup department ... it's worth a shot. 

Another possibility might be simply convincing (via direct communications or 'implanting' the thought) a rising Ork Warboss that there is a really excellent Hat at the desired target location and just seeing what happens. 

[b1soul]

The AL wouldn't just be pointing the Orks in the general direction of a good stomping ground, they'd be manipulating the Orks to increase their combat effectivness against the WS over the course of a few years.

 

Hence why I think psychic means would be a great addition to the AL toolkit, if they could somehow develop it to work in this context

Edited May 7, 2020 by b1soul

[MegaVolt87]

After reading more into Chondox stuff, it appears like the AL went reverse deathwatch style by killing off weaker ork leaders so they rally around the strongest orks who unify them. That basically robs the WS of any real headway they make. Its way easier to fight orks when they are infighting and fighting at the same time. Also likely shrinking the battlezone by killing any ork in certain areas so they don't spread out too thinly and their numbers are more concentrated as a result. Orks are superstitious, so if that asteroid belt no one comes back from and they can't explain it they just won't go there at all as an example. AL harrowing with no survivors achieves this nicely. I am interested to see AL at siege of terra, surely they would have used a lot of their strength basically fighting WS and SW's back to back? 

[b1soul]

AL didn't really fight the WS.

 

The SW were already badly mauled by the TSons (though not near-extinct like the lattet). Alaxxes was a lop-sided execution of the SW until the DA starfort showed up.