Who do you think best represents the good in-universe?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Some of my choices are Garro, Sanguinius and Sigismund. They all gave their lives willingly for the Imperium.

[Scribe]

None.

 

Even those you listed are doing nothing but supporting a corrupt, totalitarian, dystopian institution.

 

The only good, is Nids.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Nidz are purely evil.

[Scribe]

Nids, are simply hungry.

[m0nolith]

Vulkan

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Vulkan was a good man for sure.

[Scribe]

You cannot be good, and support the Imperium. :p

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

I would skip most of the Astartes characters completely, since even if they are working for the good of mankind in the abstract, they sure left a lot of bodies in their wake. To me the actually good in-universe characters are remembrancers like Euphrati Keeler and Kyril Sindermann (and even he is debatable, because he influenced the founding of the Inquisition) and some of the Mechanicum, interestingly. Arkhan Land wasn't a pleasant person, but I can see an argument can be made for him to have been at least mostly good at heart and I think very few people would consider Dalia Cythera to have been anything but a good person.

 

If we absolutely must consider some Astartes, then I guess a lot of people considered Corswain to be the ultimate honorable knight (even known as "beloved" Corswain), so I would add him to the others that have already been mentioned here.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You cannot be good, and support the Imperium.

 

Spoken like a hertik.

[Scribe]

Define good then?

 

Survival is not a moral qualifier. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Good is relative. If people find themselves identifying with daemonic or Xenos entities then more power to them but that doesn’t inherently make humanity a bad thing.

[Scribe]

Indeed so. The 'good' Humans however are not Imperial.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Then what are they ?

[tychobi]

Humanity is not good by default. Any group being inherently good or evil is a bit silly but humans in the 40k universe lean hard to the latter in my opinion.

 

As best measure for "goodness" I propose the treatment of the least powerful members of their own group.

 

Sooo Nurgle? Nurglings seem to be having fun? Tau?

[Scribe]

Then what are they ?

 

Hunted. Executed. Imprisoned. Sacrificed to the Emperor in lots of 1000's to power the Golden Throne. Forced into slavery, into worship. Gathered and sent to war's they do not wish to fight, or blinded and bound on Black Ships.

 

They are those who the Imperium grind to bone dust, after drinking their blood, and eating their flesh.

 

Human's who simply would wish for a humble and decent life, but by virtue of existing, are used up and consumed by a government and it's institutions that will never be 'good'.

 

EDIT: As I took my dog out, the best 'good' I can think of would be a Knight Household, that declared itself independent from Imperium and Mechanicum.

 

You can imagine how long they would last after doing such. I'm reminded of the Heresy short story with the Space Wolf who helped liberate a world from Dark Eldar attacks.

 

The Human's wished to remain independent. Remember how that turned out?

Edited May 3, 2020 by Scribe

[Goreshed]

The beauty of the grim dark universe is the fact that there are these small moments that taken in that very moment shines with humanity. Only for the next moment for it to be taken away and the reality of the universe comes crashing down to dispel such a nothing of 'good'.

[Lexington]

Gonna have to go with "please define 'good'."

[armarnis]

It could only be grandfater nurgle! He cares not who you are or what you did. He bestows his gift to anyone

[Commander Dawnstar]

I'd say Commander Farsight is certainly more on the "good" or moral end of the spectrum.

 

He follows a code of honour which he extends fully to his enemies (observing their own matters of honour, not firing on non-combatants and enemy medics, and being quite willing to parley with and negotiate safe withdrawal for invaders even as they insult and threaten him); he has shown absolute loyalty to those close to him and allowed former adversaries second chances; he was willing to defy authority to do what he thought was right even before Arthas Moloch despite that being a cultural taboo, and even after his exile he has still acted time and again in the defence of those sworn to see him dead.

 

Certainly he's no flawless saint and we could debate whether some of his choices (i.e. choosing to hide truths to avoid a bloody civil war, becoming a hermit and abandoning the Enclaves after first severing ties with the Empire, firebombing worlds invaded by Orks so thoroughly that it near-exterminated the local wildlife) and actions he countenanced while serving the Empire would predicate him ever being considered "good," but I think that as far as 40k is concerned he's certainly portrayed as more of a force for good than the vast majority of named characters in the setting.

[Volt]

The Farsight Enclaves, Imperial Knights, Exodites, and a smattering of Space Marine Chapters and Craftworlds are basically the only reasonable actors in 40k, with everybody else being fething nuts, acting in a vaguely utilitarian good manner but with a glut of inefficient violence, or are simply outright ethically bankrupt and completely arbitrary in function.

[Marshal Rohr]

In a fictional universe with real Gods and different laws of science good is possible and definable by the universes creators. Outside observers of the universe bring their own definitions of good to the table programmed by their culture, personal beliefs, and upbringing. So you have to delineate between good in universe and good from the perspective of the audience. To the audience, no one is really good because all of the factions live in societies that go against modern sensibilities and conceptions of good and bad, but someone might be right relative to the audience members perception of what right and wrong in the universe is. Hence, Scribe can think it’s right to accept what Chaos is as inevitable and I can’t think resisting Chaos is right.

 

 

As for the in-universe good, plenty of people are good in-universe. Space Marines are a force for good. Every worker uprising they put down because the uprising is manipulated by Genestealer cultists is good, because the end state is less humans. The Imperial Guard is a force for good when it burns churches handing out food to the poor because the church is actually run by a slaanesh sex cult. Everytime a psyker is summarily executed when they lose control it is good because they could become a vessel for a demonic incursion. The Tau euthanizing psychic humans for the same reason is good. The Necrons wiping out a human colony for tampering with blackstone holding warp rifts at bay is good. The Emperor eating the souls of a thousand psykers a day is good because it lets people on the frontier get their grain shipments to hive worlds on time.

 

We can view 40k as ourselves and think ‘this is authoritarian and gross’ and that’s fine because 40k isn’t real, but in universe rules apply and they are separated from our real life perceptions of morality and justice because the very foundations of the universe have their own rules.

[Schurge]

In a fictional universe with real Gods and different laws of science good is possible and definable by the universes creators. Outside observers of the universe bring their own definitions of good to the table programmed by their culture, personal beliefs, and upbringing. So you have to delineate between good in universe and good from the perspective of the audience. To the audience, no one is really good because all of the factions live in societies that go against modern sensibilities and conceptions of good and bad, but someone might be right relative to the audience members perception of what right and wrong in the universe is. Hence, Scribe can think it’s right to accept what Chaos is as inevitable and I can’t think resisting Chaos is right.

 

 

As for the in-universe good, plenty of people are good in-universe. Space Marines are a force for good. Every worker uprising they put down because the uprising is manipulated by Genestealer cultists is good, because the end state is less humans. The Imperial Guard is a force for good when it burns churches handing out food to the poor because the church is actually run by a slaanesh sex cult. Everytime a psyker is summarily executed when they lose control it is good because they could become a vessel for a demonic incursion. The Tau euthanizing psychic humans for the same reason is good. The Necrons wiping out a human colony for tampering with blackstone holding warp rifts at bay is good. The Emperor eating the souls of a thousand psykers a day is good because it lets people on the frontier get their grain shipments to hive worlds on time.

 

We can view 40k as ourselves and think ‘this is authoritarian and gross’ and that’s fine because 40k isn’t real, but in universe rules apply and they are separated from our real life perceptions of morality and justice because the very foundations of the universe have their own rules.

 

You win the thread. Might as well close it.

 

The ends don't justify the means except for when they do... and in 40k fiction they often do. In America there is a popular saying, "Democracy is the worst form of government... except for all the others." I don't wish to debate that point but rather draw a parallel to 40k. In regards to humanity in 40k, "Fascism" (pardon my over-simplification of the Imperium) is the worst form of government... except for all the others. Most humans do - or did at least - fine in the Imperium before the recent cataclysm... and as Marshal Rohr said the Imperium does what is necessary.

 

If we are to insist on pushing our own morals onto the universe... I would nominate Drukhari as the good guys because they elevate the individual, and the rights and responsibilities of the individual, to a greater degree then any of the other playable factions (their Nihilism and sadism aside). Now I may be wrong as I know nothing aboutt the Craftworlds and it wouldn't be surprising to me if they were the same way but with a culture of self control. Regardless, it is a metric I rarely see used in discussions of morality in 40k.

[Scribe]

Well played Rohr.

[jaxom]

The other thing to note is that we’re only exposed to the interesting narratives. Or perhaps, unusual narratives would be a better term. For every Chapter we read about making monstrous decisions there could be tens of Chapters that routinely hop from taking down pirates to stopping a Xenos invasion, to helping out a Rogue Trader.

[The Yncarne]

What is good? The Khan knows what is good, "To crush your enemies -- See them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"