Who do you think best represents the good in-universe?

[mactire]

Vlka Fenryka, because we do what needs to be done and whats right.

[MegaVolt87]

Vlka Fenryka, because we do what needs to be done and whats right.

 

Meanwhile inventing alcohol strong enough to get an Astartes drunk, to celebrate/ forget things they have done. Actually getting smashed after work is pretty human. One vote + schooner for relatable SW's. 

[Scribe]

Vlka Fenryka, because we do what needs to be done and whats right.

 

How many millions of humans murdered in forced compliance during the Great Crusade?

[MegaVolt87]

 

Vlka Fenryka, because we do what needs to be done and whats right.

 

How many millions of humans murdered in forced compliance during the Great Crusade?

 

 

Now, now probably half those that resisted would have eventually fallen to rebellion. Worlds that accepted the Imperium, not all stayed loyal during the HH to be fair either. 

[SpecialIssue]

Yeah that's a thing that's also overlooked in the fan base - that the GC was cool and great because it gained so much power for humanity.

 

But what about the effect on the warp? All that conquest and bloodshed in such a short space of time, all that emotion, of pointless killings and the pride of victory, the lamentations and anguish of entire races purged because they weren't human (yes, not all aliens are evil, even in 40k). Across an entire galaxy, in 200 years. And you weren't surprised when the Chaos gods took notice, that the warp stopped being relatively peaceful after that 200 year lull? To them, the GC was was all worship, a massive offering.

 

Humanity are not good in 40k - I think that 40k is clear on that and part of what makes it so different from other sci-fi - it is pessimistic and even scornful of humanity. The great enemy in this universe isn't even an arbitrary set of values or external evil in a sense - but the unfiltered expression and avatars of what make us human. The gods aren't 'evil' just because - they are evil because humanity is.

 

The closer you are to power in 40k, the further you are away from good, applying from the Emperor's GC to Guardsman liberating worlds going on subsequent looting/violence sprees against the very people they are defending (alien culture and people, militarised culture and historical precedent- I'd bet it'd be very common).

 

There is no innocence, only degrees of guilt.

[b1soul]

Good by a modern “the ends do NOT justify the means” sensibility?

 

No one is perfect, but the 40K is not devoid of good (it's just a rarer commodity)

 

Vulkan when he protects innocents

 

Space Wolves when they stand up for Guardsmen against the Inquisition (never been a fan of the dogmen but I give credit where it's due)

 

Guilliman's grand vision of Ultramar is about as "good" (or as least dystopian) as it gets in 40K

 

The Khan, when informed by Sanguinius at the Siege that he will save lives but at grave risk to himself, simply says "I will ride out. That is what I was made for." Of course, he follows through

Edited May 4, 2020 by b1soul

[Beta galactosidase]

You win the thread. Might as well close it.

 

The ends don't justify the means except for when they do... and in 40k fiction they often do. In America there is a popular saying, "Democracy is the worst form of government... except for all the others." I don't wish to debate that point but rather draw a parallel to 40k. In regards to humanity in 40k, "Fascism" (pardon my over-simplification of the Imperium) is the worst form of government... except for all the others. Most humans do - or did at least - fine in the Imperium before the recent cataclysm... and as Marshal Rohr said the Imperium does what is necessary.

 

If we are to insist on pushing our own morals onto the universe... I would nominate Drukhari as the good guys because they elevate the individual, and the rights and responsibilities of the individual, to a greater degree then any of the other playable factions (their Nihilism and sadism aside). Now I may be wrong as I know nothing aboutt the Craftworlds and it wouldn't be surprising to me if they were the same way but with a culture of self control. Regardless, it is a metric I rarely see used in discussions of morality in 40k.

Individuals in the craftworlds are liberated so they can achieve their maximum potential. *Even in the socially conservative Alaitoc they can just leave for path of the ranger and come back, since the restrictions are more of a self help program than a law.

 

This is different than dark eldar where the society is about domination and the individuality is the freedom for individuals to enslave other dark eldar or individually wind up in slavery.

 

That adage you give about democracy is from a non-american politician of no importance at all. The individualism of dark eldar is a little bit like that quote, in that it has a smell of baloney about it. That politician was fudging when he referred casually to "democracy," because it was just taking it for granted that the country he was talking about was an obvious example of democracy, and it's also a fudge to say that dark eldar elevate the individual when that's just sophistry.

[jaxom]

 

Individuals in the craftworlds are liberated so they can achieve their maximum potential. *Even in the socially conservative Alaitoc they can just leave for path of the ranger and come back, since the restrictions are more of a self help program than a law.

 

This is different than dark eldar where the society is about domination and the individuality is the freedom for individuals to enslave other dark eldar or individually wind up in slavery.

 

*SNIP*

 

it's also a fudge to say that dark eldar elevate the individual when that's just sophistry.

 

 

[Not touching the democracy rabbit-hole with a ten-foot pole at the moment] Regarding the Eldar and Dark Eldar, and individuality, there's the classic follow up from any such discussion. How does a system of values (individual or societal) which espouses the primacy of the individual resolve conflicts between contrary actors?

 

As noted, the Dark Eldar resolution is one of individual strength (either in the form of violence, cunning, or both). The Eldar resolution is one granting primacy towards collective safety (no one wants an accidental warp-rift or other such shenanigans because Kyor Dun'Rahm'ze got too intense while moving along the Path of the Chef so they ask him to move along to the Path of the Child-Whisperer).

 

From a perspective of only individuality, does this make the Dark Eldar a greater good? Or is the more relevant question one of which spectra  are worthwhile to have in a society and how does one set their intersections to achieve the best balance? From that latter question, it could very well be that places like Ultramar, Nocturne, and Tanith are some of the few extant examples we have of "good" societies in 40k. I leave it up to those more enmeshed in Eldar lore to decide if their unique circumstances would also allow one to claim they are "good."

 

EDIT: switched out some ambiguous wording.

Edited May 4, 2020 by jaxom

[Azekai]

 

How many millions of humans murdered in forced compliance during the Great Crusade?

It was probably billions, but why just human lives that matter? Plenty of undeserving xenos also lost their lives

#theMegaArachnidsDidNothingWrong

 

In all seriousness, this quote also brings into question the very idea of 'just war' philosophy. When is war the proper, ethical course of action (if ever)? Must a government or army be totally unstained by any and all unnecessary bloodshed? If that is the case, then no military force in the history of mankind (or in the 40k universe) can meet that bar. Collateral damage is always going to ensue, and even if your troops are disciplined and motivated to not kill civilians, what about the famine and disease that inevitably follow?

 

If some level of civilian casualties are deemed acceptable in order to stop a horrific enemy, then what number is too many? The death of civilians was sought during the bombing of Dresden, not because killing civilians is fun, but because killing factory workers also kills the German war machine.

 

I think that for all the Imperium's faults, they are still the 'least awful' power in the galaxy at large. That is certainly how the fiction typically portrays them. That does not make them the good guys, but it still makes Imperial rule/victory preferable to having a daemonette wear your face as a loin cloth.

[Karhedron]

Nidz are purely evil.

Nids, are simply hungry.

Hunger looks very much like evil from the wrong end of the cutlery. Or do you think your bacon sandwich loves you back?

[Bryan Blaire]

I think that ultimately none of the factions specifically represent the “good” in-universe to me, and that while members of the factions may struggle to be better than the base-line, the whole idea is really that there are no “good guys” to be found - now, to me, that’s supposed to mean more that there are not those that players would see as ultimately virtuous, though I think Sanguinius is probably the closest that we have. To me, that makes the game universe all the more interesting, and more compelling than ones where you do have almost purely virtuous heroes or factions that can be said to be that way.

[MegaVolt87]

I think that ultimately none of the factions specifically represent the “good” in-universe to me, and that while members of the factions may struggle to be better than the base-line, the whole idea is really that there are no “good guys” to be found - now, to me, that’s supposed to mean more that there are not those that players would see as ultimately virtuous, though I think Sanguinius is probably the closest that we have. To me, that makes the game universe all the more interesting, and more compelling than ones where you do have almost purely virtuous heroes or factions that can be said to be that way.

 

Actually even Sang I felt wasn't "good" either. He tried so hard not to give in to what he actually was, while successful the fact his struggle was at a knife's edge for his entire life makes him more of a monster to me. Remember he was apparently no 1 pick for the chaos gods as champion, followed by Magnus THEN Horus. I would argue Vulkan as the most sane +"good" primarch, he seems to have a better connection with the common people, more approachable etc, despite his appearance. Also I feel Vulkan held human life as valuable more so than his brothers. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t see him that way because he knew his end and stoically accepted it.

 

Why are Nidz evil... it’s all perspective and I don’t see them having any redeeming values. Sure they are quite powerful but so are many things.

[BadgersinHills]

I'd say that there are plenty of good people in the 40k setting, though they are generally powerless. Example, I think of Anuradha's dad and Tyberia from Spear of the Emperor and Talos' mother from the Night Lords series. I'll avoid spoilers for the first two but the latter made many sacrifices so that her son could have a better future (And then has the fate you'd expect of a nice person in Warhammer.) 

[Scribe]

I don’t see him that way because he knew his end and stoically accepted it.

 

Why are Nidz evil... it’s all perspective and I don’t see them having any redeeming values. Sure they are quite powerful but so are many things.

 

That is not how morality works. Good and Evil is not relative to power.

 

Nids are simply looking for food. Are Lion's evil? Are Bears? Absolutely not.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Morality is a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society. So sure Sanguinius had all of these attributes. If anyone wants to argue that Nidz are good, fine by me - knock yourself out.

[Scribe]

No, I'm arguing they are not evil. They are neutral.

 

Sang is good...within the framework of 40K's Black and Black Morality. Sure.

[The Unseen]

Only a few factions are really *EVIL*, all caps. Dark Eldar, because how else do you describe an entire civilization dedicated to sadism, both in and out of universe, they're just the worst. I'd argue even worse than Daemons, because Daemons aren't really alive or conscious; they're little pieces of soul stuff molded by strong emotions. A khornate daemon can't NOT rampage indiscriminately seeking out blood and skulls, its not a choice the individual daemons make, it just is. And the chaos gods themselves are just the same, just on a massive scale. Tzeentch can't choose to not scheme, Tzeentch is the very idea of scheming make manifest. They're Orange and Blue morality at best, but I'd argue they aren't evil just like hurricanes and blizzards aren't evil. They don't make decisions, therefore they can't make moral choices. Now, can they contribute to suffering? Sure. Just like hurricanes do. But chaos WORSHIPERS on the other hand are absolutely evil. At least the ones who know what they're doing are. Just like I'd say someone who knowingly and willingly called a hurricane into being and sent it smashing into a coastline full of people is evil. But the hurricane isn't a moral actor in that. Erebus is probably the most evil being in all of creation, as he knew what he was doing the whole time, and gleefully led the way into hell for the whole galaxy. Similarly, Dark Eldar are more than capable of empathy, it isn't like they're too dumb to know that other people don't like being vivisected like you could argue an Ork is, but instead have devoted their entire culture into the celebration of constant one-upmanship dickishness.

Nid's as a whole CAN be evil, because high enough up the chain, the Hive Mind can make decisions, and could presumably have made choices that didn't turn the entire species into ravenous interstellar locust swarms that consume literally everything else. But an individual nid isn't evil, because it doesn't make choices, it has some basic hard-wired instincts, and is probably dumber than your average rat when left on its own.

 

Humanity as a whole in 40k is definitely evil, because being willing to build an empire on the blood and bones of literally an uncountable number of sentient beings to drag just a few more lungfuls of that sweet sweet conquest is definitely not how a moral *species* would act. But, moral species have a disturbing tendency to go extinct when faced with outside pressure. That doesn't stop individuals from being "good", but systematically definitely on the bad guy side. Certain people in the system probably would fall on the side of moral *right*, but taken collectively its pretty obvious. And that's why the Imperium is interesting, and has stayed interesting for so long, is because we, as Humans, rationalize said evil when its working to our benefit, namely our species continued existence. But it's still evil. Several of the Loyalist primarchs, and even a few of the fallen ones, started out with very good intentions, in attempting to reqtify this evil and create something better, but were dragged into the machinations of empire and ultimately none of them managed to make the Imperium as a whole good. A few of them carved out pocket domains were it was BETTER, especially Ultramar, which reads like an idiolized greek/roman society, minus all the slavery, but keeping all the racism (well, specism)

 

Orks similarly probably aren't capable of making decisions that aren't what they are, so while definitely not good, they can't be evil either, because they don't get to make moral choices, their decisions are pushed to far towards being the absolute best warriors the galaxy has ever seen as a whole, since they were, you know, engineered to be that way. Certain exceptionally cruel orks could perhaps be given the tag evil, but as a whole orks are again more like a force of nature than a collection of individuals.

 

Tau brainwash their own citizens with literal mind-control, sterilize supposedly equal people brought into their culture, and are big in military fueled expansion. So basically, humanity before Big E took charge, not great. By far not the worse guys you could run into, as on an individual level they seem more or less decent, and have for example codes of conduct even in their warfare, and seem dedicated to reducing the cost in lives even with military action, such as not shooting medics, not targeting civilian populations, etc.

 

Necrons are your stereotypical "we've been here longer, so we're entitled to everything" race (They are the boomers of the 41st Millennium) , and are fine with sacrificing literally every other sentient in the galaxy if it means they get to be back on top running the show again. So not much different than everyone else, but still evil. Tend towards less evil than most because they don't seem to actually enjoy causing suffering to those they consider less than themselves, just beneath notice. Helps that most of them have space-dementia and its hard to stay mad at grandpa when he keeps forgetting things. Trazyn is evil on about the same level your average saturday morning cartoon villain is. Evil, but supremely entertaining. Craftworld eldar are in a similar boat, with being slightly less dementia riddled and therefore closer to the reasonable sane side of the 40k universe, but would still happily torch billions of others to save themselves, and love to meddle in other races affairs, sorta like USA foreign policy. (Drone guided bombs=magic foresight murder?)

 

Exodite Eldar are probably the closest *race* to being good. They're isolationists, but who wouldn't be in the 40k universe if they could be, they aren't expansionist, and as long as you leave them alone on their scattering of worlds they're quite content to ignore your existence. They'll happily murder you if you try to come visit them, but if your neighbors were an expansionist military force who shoots non-humans on sight, interstellar locust swarms, fungus that'll think your butchered corpse is the funniest thing they've seen all day, and literal nightmare fuel, that's a pretty reasonable self-defense policy.

 

So, I think we have a winner. The dinosaur riding space elves are the *good* guys in the 41st Millennium.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Some common examples of morality are telling the truth, courage, keeping your promises, not cheating and being dependable. There’s no such thing as black and morality but often some try to project this trope on 40k.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Let's not forget that Vulkan, as his primary tactic of choice, uses flame weaponry, an incredibly inhumane weapon. Dress it up as "fire purifies" as much as you want, but "burn 'em all" isn't exactly a good-guy tactic.

 

 

 

(Sanguinius) tried so hard not to give in to what he actually was, while successful the fact his struggle was at a knife's edge for his entire life makes him more of a monster to me.

At the risk of being inflammatory, that kinda... really sounds cruddy in regards to a mental health perspective. Sure, he was tempted his whole life by the darker side of his personality, but he didn't choose to have that occurring. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lol in regards to the Sanguinius trope.

[Scribe]

Some common examples of morality are telling the truth, courage, keeping your promises, not cheating and being dependable. There’s no such thing as black and morality but often some try to project this trope on 40k.

 

So if you promise to kill every man, woman and child who have witnessed a Grey Knight defeat a Daemon, are you a good guy when you do it?

Edited May 5, 2020 by Scribe

[Azekai]

 

 

Some common examples of morality are telling the truth, courage, keeping your promises, not cheating and being dependable. There’s no such thing as black and morality but often some try to project this trope on 40k.

So if you promise to kill every man, woman and child who have witnessed a Grey Knight defeat a Daemon, are you a good guy when you do it?

 

EDIT: Note, that ultimately I dont care what you answer. I already know the answer.

 

I simply hope you think about it.

What is with the condescending tone? Why are you assuming this holier than thou attitude over lore regarding toy soldiers?

[Scribe]

I'm asking a question of morality. I find anyone arguing that Imperials are good, as comical in the extreme and utterly ignorant of the setting.

 

If it's all just toy soldiers, then it doesnt matter in the least, and the setting itself is...irrelevant. You can certainly attribute whatever actions you wish to your own toy soldiers.

 

If you (as Black Blow Fly has done several times) make a claim that X is 'Good' then you are taking a position that can be questioned.

 

Some (Rohr for example) can answer that call.

 

A question of morality is far more interesting than one about toy soldiers.

 

EDIT: To put it plainly, I care way more than I should about a setting that has gravitated from a joke, a joke that is self aware, and 'very grim and serious' over decades, and...I have a lot of time right now to think about it and discuss it :p

Edited May 5, 2020 by Scribe

[Ultramarine vet]

Hmm. A lot of interesting opinions in here. I hope everyone remembers that it's exactly that, an opinion. Nothing in this post whatsoever is fact, it is perspective.

 

I, have the opinion that humanity, the Imperium, is not evil. When you have as many races that could wipe out humanity at any point, you do have to take rather drastic, and unfortunate measures. When a world is tainted with chaos and cannot be rooted out, or a Tyranid invasion that simply couldn't be defeated and is now gaining strength, you will have to perform exterminatus and kill every last man, woman, and child, whether you like it or not. Whether any of them are innocent, or not. Otherwise, it spreads. It's much of the same if you were to have a disease or infection in your leg, and it's spreading. You would have to have it amputated. Otherwise, you are quite dead. Same thing here. You have to kill some human life so that human life as a whole can be allowed to continue. Such is the life of the grim 40k, and the measures needed for humanity's continued survival. We may not like it, but it is necessary.

 

To call that evil, is not what I see. It is survival, quite simply.

 

To answer directly to the OP's original question, however, I believe that the best representation of good (if we're talking about individuals being the representation, and not actions or events), is Saul Tarvitz, Garviel Loken, Tarik Torgaddon, Garro, Sanguinius, and indeed, the whole Astral Knight's chapter for their selfless sacrifice. Along, of course, with many many more examples, more than I can put into this post. That should hopefully hammer my point home.

 

I do enjoy reading everyone's perspectives and views though.