Who do you think best represents the good in-universe?

[Ishagu]

You can absolutely be good and still support the Imperium if the alternative was extinction of the human race.

 

Guilliman, Vulkan and Dorn can all be labelled as heroic good guys, as an example. Doesn't mean they only do good or that they aren't affected by the greater universe around them.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[War Angel]

Well, the imperium is good at its core, it’s goal is the continued survival of the human race. There’s been a lot of times that corrupted/ evil people get into power, but that doesn’t change the imperium as a whole. There’s times where inquisitors destroy entire worlds. Usually (or maybe some of the time depending on who’s writing) there’s a good reason, such as the entire planet was overrun with genestealer cults and there’s just no hope in recovery. Sometimes they didn’t get coffee fast enough so they blew up the planet. So yeah, humanity. There the good guys. Unless they are cultist traitors or heretics.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We love our good guys coz they keep it safe. If they were bad then would have gone over too.

[War Angel]

Just read that little scenario. There’s a major flaw with it. This planet can’t hope to survive without the imperium. Any world that falls to any other faction in the setting that faction is now stronger. So not joining the imperium might as well be attacking the imperium. So yeah, they might have to force them back into the rest of humanity. There’s war on every planet, you don’t get to sit on the sidelines.

[Volt]

I think I understand what you are saying Volt, but within the context or framework that I think we are working with here, Nids eating biomass can never be called evil/good. There is no moral attachment to it.

 

Am I misunderstanding you?

I would more be concerned with the application of morality to that which is able to even conceive of it. As a hive like swarm void of individual thought, there isn't morality in species such as the Tyranids or Orks (or Daemons, in a metaphysical sense). They don't have free thought or can ever act independent of the way they are wrought, thus cannot be held responsible for their actions beyond judgement on amoral affairs such as whether or not they are tactically/strategically smart. Moreover there is no truly "absolute" system or wrong system of morality, as if we discuss in deontological terms, there is no debate to be even had. As in deontology there are merely absolutes, non-negotiable, and thus no give or take can be had.

 

What discussion can be had however is in regards to utilitarian ethics/morality, which is more about judging the harm of actions taken versus the good wrought from their outcome. Thus it becomes a matter of for example, how harmful the Great Crusade was to the survival of humanity in the first place, vs doing something else. Which I'd say that the Great Crusade was justified in the crudest terms of utilitarianism, namely that extinction was the alternative due to the threats humanity would face later. It was grossly and needlessly excessive in the scope of its violence, wiping out species that were not threats and likely could be folded into the Imperium or at least used as buffer states - which depending on the lore you read was even what the Emperor somewhat desired, but the Primarchs got out of hand and he never bothers to reign them in.

[redshadow]

It’s not Star Trek

[TheMawr]

Id throw in Trazyn.. by his motivation being undiscriminative preservation.. as opposed to the discriminative preservation (survival) or (in)discriminative destruction that motivates others.

Our technical view of good is the measure between preservation and destruction. ... Destroying something is bad, destroying something to preserve something else however is often considered "less bad" or even good.. just preserving something without any destruction is generally considered good ( I cant think of an example that wouldnt be right now.).
This is often balanced by the level of discrimination on the destruction and the preservation side.

I think thats the most objective way to approach the very subjective matter of good vs bad. ( wich is more often than not represented as noble vs bad or heroic vs bad.. neither necessarily being objectively good.)

When 10 soldiers risk their lives and half of them die to rescue one wounded peer.. thats not really a good thing.. but it is a noble/heroic thing.
 

[TheMawr]

btw not so serious about trazyn being good ;) but the rest of the text is.

[War Angel]

Just because something doesn’t have a choice in what it does does not make it incapable of good or evil. Deamons kill for the pure thrill of it, they are evil. You can say they have no choice because that is the design of them by their creators, but then they are extensions of their evil creators, so they are evil.

 

Lore of the time before the great crusade speaks of Xenos races that humanity had allied with betraying us on a grand scale. This leads to the emperors hatred of them, and by extension humanity. Their elimination was needed for our survival.

[Ishagu]

It's pretty clear that the Chaos Gods are objectively evil. To ally with them means you are a slave for eternity and they own your soul. They bring ruin in the long run and nothing else.

 

Good guys can probably be found across the Eldar, Tau, Imperium and Necron factions. Doesn't mean the faction is good as a whole. That's why the lore of this universe is so great.

 

Orks and Nids are more like a force of nature.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[War Angel]

Nids and orks are still supernatural and this capable of being on the evil side. The difference being a pride of lions is not justification for a kill team being dispatched.

[Scribe]

How exactly are you defining evil here then?

 

Daemons don't kill for the thrill. They kill because their entire existence depends on the promotion of concepts and metaphysical actions that fuel their patron in a feedback loop.

 

They do it because that is their 'life cycle'.

 

I don't know about you, but I'm not going to think a Nid is evil. I can't talk to it, I cannot relate to it, I cannot look at it and see myself represented in it.

 

Meanwhile, an Astarte's of the Blood Angels or Space Wolves can tell me a tale of the glory of the Imperium, can appeal to our shared heritage, speak to me of the benefits of uniting against a hateful universe.

 

And if I deny them, they will look me in the eye as they murder anyone who would attempt to stand against them.

 

So what is evil.

[Ishagu]

Any being that intentionally damns your soul for eternity, either through direct or indirect influence is evil lol

 

You seen what Khorne does to the souls that end up in his domain?

[Ultramarine vet]

Hold on here. Are we actually making a case for....Daemons not being evil? As Ishagu said, they are an extension of the chaos Gods, who are inherently evil. The reason why does not matter.

[War Angel]

Yeah at this point he is a troll. You don’t need to be able to see yourself in something for it to be evil. It is evil. Yes deamons existence and blah blah blah, they still enjoy it.

 

Space marines killing you because you deny them is your own fault, your likely denying them from stoping some other evil.

[Azekai]

How exactly are you defining evil here then?

 

Daemons don't kill for the thrill. They kill because their entire existence depends on the promotion of concepts and metaphysical actions that fuel their patron in a feedback loop.

 

Daemons are psycho-emotional predators that absolutely revel in the anguish and suffering they cause. They are the summed reflection of all the evil and negativity in the known universe, mirrored and then spat back out by the Warp.

 

The fact that they lack a balanced human psychology does not in any way diminish their evil intentions or actions.

 

[Scribe]

It's a question of agency.

 

I can absolutely accept that Daemons are evil, as they are personified emotions which come from the evil within humanity (for the most part).

 

I still don't accept that Nids are evil.

 

I still have yet to see how the Imperium is anything but, when viewed externally.

 

If the ends justify the means, that's fine, but is justification enough to change morality of an act?

 

Open questions I admit. Some of the answers in the thread have been enlightening, but I swear I'm not trolling.

 

It's not enough to say that the Imperium doesn't see itself as evil. Would a hypothetical human planet see it as an even worse evil than Orks, or Necron, simply because of the similar heritage?

 

I think it would.

 

I mean fundamentally, that is the point of the entire Mythology, both 40K and WHFB.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Scribe

[War Angel]

If you can logic that nids arnt evil because they are hungry, and need food to survive, then the imperium is also doing what it does to survive. It’s not any different.

 

Except, tyranids don’t eat to survive, they are here to consume. They go beyond eating. So your logic is reverse.

 

Examples of evil wildlife: wasps, snakeheads, some other fish I saw in west VA. They only exist to kill.

[Scribe]

It's different, because that Astartes Chapter Master will talk it over with you, before he guts you and strings you up as example.

 

The bug just eats you, and everything else.

 

I mean if you think a Wasp is evil, our concepts of the word are simply incompatible.

[Tyriks]

Space marines killing you because you deny them is your own fault, your likely denying them from stoping some other evil.

This is shockingly similar to how many tyrannical regimes have justified oppressing their own people.

 

Examples of evil wildlife: wasps, snakeheads, some other fish I saw in west VA. They only exist to kill.

Wildlife is not evil.  How would something with no moral agency be evil?  Deadly is not the same as evil.  

[Panzer]

 

 

Examples of evil wildlife: wasps, snakeheads, some other fish I saw in west VA. They only exist to kill.

Wildlife is not evil.  How would something with no moral agency be evil?  Deadly is not the same as evil.  

 

 

Yeah, if wasps are evil literally everything that lives is evil. :sweat:

[War Angel]

No, wasps are evil. I shouldn’t have to explain this to you.

 

40k is not modern times. Getting in the way of people trying to stop the end of the world causes a lot more people to die.

[Scribe]

Define evil, because unless we have some kind of language issue, a Wasp is no more evil than a Dog, or house cat.

[Panzer]

No, wasps are evil. I shouldn’t have to explain this to you.

 

 

If you make such a random statement to use as argument in a discussion that pretty much asks what evil actually is ... yes you have to explain it. Wasp may be aggressive, hurt, can be dangerous, etc. But evil? No.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Panzer

[War Angel]

Wasps kill everything they can just because. Maybe specific wasp species maybe. It’s not even a territory thing, they’ll just stab you. Cats may play with food before killing it, but that’s to teach and hone their skills. Dogs cats lions bears, they’ll kill for food. Not evil. Wasps will kill and leave the bodies (at least specific species)

 

Anyway, tyranids are not just animals, like I said earlier, they are supernatural. There’s more to them.