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Who do you think best represents the good in-universe?

BLACK BLΠFLY

By BLACK BLΠFLY
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Panzer Veteran

Panzer

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That's just not true. If it were they'd be devastating for the ecosystem. In fact they are an important part of it and get rid of pests. They live pretty peacefully alongside many other animals and definitely don't attack everything on sight. Not even close to it.

tychobi Veteran

tychobi

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It's pretty clear that the Chaos Gods are objectively evil. To ally with them means you are a slave for eternity and they own your soul. They bring ruin in the long run and nothing else.

 

How is any of that different than being a brainwashed slave to the Imperial war machine? At least the chaos gods are less hypocritical and are actually gods. Who are the actual "heretics" anyway? The guys worshiping a golden idol of a person or the guys worshiping actual gods?

 

Just because a point of view is similar to yours does not make it moral high ground. Policy that is evil and benefits you is still evil. Ends justifying the means is fallisy conjured to protect bad actors that conveniently act in your favor. We can be good and successful.

War Angel Veteran

War Angel

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It's pretty clear that the Chaos Gods are objectively evil. To ally with them means you are a slave for eternity and they own your soul. They bring ruin in the long run and nothing else.

How is any of that different than being a brainwashed slave to the Imperial war machine? At least the chaos gods are less hypocritical and are actually gods. Who are the actual "heretics" anyway? The guys worshiping a golden idol of a person or the guys worshiping actual gods?

Just because a point of view is similar to yours does not make it moral high ground. Policy that is evil and benefits you is still evil. Ends justifying the means is fallisy conjured to protect bad actors that conveniently act in your favor. We can be good and successful.

 

Ok, so this guy is the troll. Back to the wasps, I can’t speak of the wasps that live around you, but the ones here are definitely evil, not beneficial, and I think they formed a cult, changing topics.

Panzer Veteran

Panzer

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Posted

 

 

It's pretty clear that the Chaos Gods are objectively evil. To ally with them means you are a slave for eternity and they own your soul. They bring ruin in the long run and nothing else.

How is any of that different than being a brainwashed slave to the Imperial war machine? At least the chaos gods are less hypocritical and are actually gods. Who are the actual "heretics" anyway? The guys worshiping a golden idol of a person or the guys worshiping actual gods?

Just because a point of view is similar to yours does not make it moral high ground. Policy that is evil and benefits you is still evil. Ends justifying the means is fallisy conjured to protect bad actors that conveniently act in your favor. We can be good and successful.

 

Ok, so this guy is the troll. Back to the wasps, I can’t speak of the wasps that live around you, but the ones here are definitely evil, not beneficial, and I think they formed a cult, changing topics.

 

 

Alright, so your local wasps are a gang of evil bastards. Guess individual wasps have different personalities or something too.

 

Suddenly talking about wasps and calling them evil feels a lot more like trolling than calling brainwashed super soldiers who kill in name of a totalitarian system evil by the way. ;) 

War Angel Veteran

War Angel

Posted
Posted

Listen I give up on the wasps if You haven’t figured that out. I think they’re evil, and when the bees are all dead you’ll think the same, but that’s not the point.

 

Chaos is a 100% evil, you can argue that they aren’t even gods by certain standards, but it’s a bit of a sell one way or another because of what exactly a god is. Orks are definitely evil, even if they were created to be that way by the old ones, being a slave doesn’t change that, it just means you can’t blame them for being that way (or maybe you can) necrons are evil, probably the first evil if we’re being honest. Eldar can go either way, but their search for their own benefit gave birth to Slaanesh , so keep that in mind.

Ultramarine vet Veteran

Ultramarine vet

Posted
Posted

Okay. So no one is gonna change each other's mind at this point.

 

As Scribe said, this is exhausted. I may not agree with everyone in here, and a lot of you aren't in agreement either. But that should be totally fine given the topic and the many interesting different points of view there is.

 

Just don't get personal! It's all good in here.

Lexington Venerable Brother

Lexington

Posted
Posted
Okay, but what’s good? Like, just a sort of benevolent humanism? “Good” is one hell of a complicated concept, and a lot of this thread is just sorta blasting through that with a lot of assumptions.
War Angel Veteran

War Angel

Posted
Posted
Chaos being the root of all evil, and quite literally evil thoughts manifested, is not a weak argument. And I didn’t call you a troll for disagreeing with me, your a troll for trying to say that humanity is brainwashed so they have to be the evil ones because the characters in the setting disagree with you. That would be like me saying that because the emperor says chaos is bad it’s bad. So no, no chaos victory.
War Angel Veteran

War Angel

Posted
Posted

I hope you understand it's far more than that.

The teaching machines? Yes they do far more than teach math. They teach languages, history, tactics, weapons handling, drill, linage probably. Lots of stuff, maybe even politics.

 

On the topic of brainwashed imperials, and maybe this should be its own topic, in what ways exactly are you suggesting they are brainwashed. To think the imperium is good? Don’t see a need to tell someone that, That would mostly be learned from the fact that your going to believe that your “tribe” is good and outsiders are bad, this is common in today.

Scribe Venerable Brother

Scribe

Posted
Posted

Psycho-Conditioning, Propaganda.

 

I mean you are not permitted to 'debate' the Imperium as a normal man. It is not an option for you to deny the God-Emperor (if baseline Human) or Omnissiah (if Ad Mech). You dont get to skip out on going to church, if the Sisters come knocking. You will absolutely be told what 'truth' is, by the institutions of the Imperium.

 

This should not be debatable.

 

If you think those things are not taking place, to the point where it would fall under 'brainwashing' then we simply are discussing different settings, and I dont know which one you are reading about because its not 40K.

War Angel Veteran

War Angel

Posted
Posted

I don’t know that those things would be brainwashing so much as a lack of rights. Given the setting though, I think these things are not the same as they would be if it were to happen in the real world. The god emperor is actually a god, even though he may not have been at one point, it’s by his power alone that we can travel the warp. I’ve read a few books, they didn’t mention too much church, so my feeling is that it’s not absolutely mandatory, just like I don’t go to church but I still have my faith. Mind you, Most of the books were about war. Also, when you know who god is and where he is, you probably go to church more. Sisters being small in number probably wouldn’t be the ones informing this.

 

Now inquisitors, those guys are very often portrayed as you describe, but also as giving themselves too much power and I don’t think that’s the fault of the imperium.

 

I just don’t think that’s brainwashing, manipulation probably. Or we have different definitions of brainwashing.

BLACK BLΠFLY

BLACK BLΠFLY

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Posted (edited)

 

Psycho-Conditioning, Propaganda.

 

I mean you are not permitted to 'debate' the Imperium as a normal man. It is not an option for you to deny the God-Emperor (if baseline Human) or Omnissiah (if Ad Mech). You dont get to skip out on going to church, if the Sisters come knocking. You will absolutely be told what 'truth' is, by the institutions of the Imperium.

 

This should not be debatable.

 

If you think those things are not taking place, to the point where it would fall under 'brainwashing' then we simply are discussing different settings, and I dont know which one you are reading about because its not 40K.

What about Eisenhorn? He has flourished.

Edited by Black Blow Fly
Scribe Venerable Brother

Scribe

Posted
Posted

He is not a 'normal man'. He is an exception.

 

If Hab Block Cleaner 15CbT Aka "Bob", to his friends, decides to flout Imperial rule, he very very quickly finds himself with an inconveniently placed bullet, at best, or a trip over to see the Imperial Preach for a refresher on "Lessons taught to Arco-Flagellants - 101".

BLACK BLΠFLY

BLACK BLΠFLY

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To me the exceptions are what define a race.

 

Dude, thats literally not how it works.

 

 
a person or thing that is excluded from a general statement or does not follow a rule.

 

Exceptional people are often leaders, teachers and artists just to name a few examples... so it makes perfect sense but maybe that’s just me.

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